Topic: New Physical Bitcoin - New Concept (Read 2444 times)

 This is exactly what I intend. I am going to make it that you will not fly somewhere unless you are 99% sure you are flying to the right place. Which means it will be very hard to crack

It's an interesting concept but I can't imagine people would actually fly around the world in search for the golden coin. I simply propose that you leave hints/riddles to clues which have an answer. Maybe the first person to have the answer or digitally map the co-ordinates can PM you and he/she get the 'treasure'.

Yes but not in bitcoin. That is the complication. I was going to turn the funds directly into Fiat to protect myself from the volatility of bitcoin. I could accept bitcoin as escrow and then when it comes to the delivery bitcoin could be worth 50 usd each.  Is there a way around that?  I am now thinking down the kickstarter line but a 5% fee will put the prices up slightly but at least it's everyone's covered. It may bring more publicity quicker too if it spotted.

I think in this case kick stater would be the best option and there is a chance we will get interest from people outside the btc community too which would be good for everyone!
I will look into starting a campaign early next week.

While I wouldn't trust a brand new coin maker these days due to the coinographic scam, I echo monkeynuts in that in this case, I trust gravitate.  He made the various microsoul silver and brass versions and earlier PBC coins.  

Like I said earlier, I'm on board in getting a coin.

I would say though to ensure this project moves forward that perhaps gravitate can do something to put people's minds at ease.  Escrow, partial payment, require only verbal confirmation vs payment, kickstarter, etc..

If you truly are just gauging interest then you should have no problem using escrow to hold the funds of preordering customers.

Are you accepting escrow?

Thank you for taking time to answer my comment about the x-ray. I think I understand what you planning to do.

I have covered my personal paper wallet with a decoy pattern, to prevent retrieving the key by holding the envelope against a powerful light source:


Something similar should be possible in the x-ray domain... with a decoy pattern as you mention.

Looking forward to hear more. 

I think I will get writing the campaign
Thanks

Maybe Kickstarter is the way forward. I've had dealings with gravitate and he went well beyond the call of duty for me, but folks are understandably twitchy on here from past experiences with others.

The kickstarter route would open up a new audience and increase exposure. The idea crosses over into gaming which is a huge area for kickstarter projects.

Pre-order=No-Order

I have limited it to 15 people who are considered 'investors'. And for their investment they get back a limited coin plus what they bought.
Adding escrow for me with everything I have going is just another unnecessary complication and I do not have time for it. I have never used it as I ensure when I do deals I have a good degree of faith in what is on offer. People will be paying in Bitcoin for escrow but I will be wanting it converted to FIAT so as to not be effected by the value of bitcoin. Complicated unless there are FIAT escrow on here? But I might as well use kick starter or something similar?


I understand that so many scams have happened that I am not aware of (if I was I would not have originally tried to pre sell all of them). I dont expect anyone who does not know me or dealt with me before to invest. I understand now that pre selling is a terrible idea but I do however need to know this coin is a good idea and that people want it to be made.  If there is not sufficient interest then the coin will not be made and I will focus on more traditional coins such as hologram coins (Actually there will be a new coin released very soon with some very interesting twists to it).

If I do not get 15 people then I will refund the people who have invested quite simply and stick to more traditional physical coins in the future.

I would be prepared to put the coin on kickstarter so the amount will be available to me in FIAT when the coin is produced. But if I find 15 people on here also that will for me be simpler and make it easier. I have so far had 2 people interested which is monkeynuts and bithalo. I will not be taking any payments until further interest. Or change it to kickstarter or something similar.

If this coin is worth making I will love to do it and will try work with the community on this. It is all very well minting coins, manufacturing holographic sticks and securely generating private keys then selling the coins. But when you add to the equation having to mint another 5 gold coins (actually only the cost of 1 of these is included in the price but this is high due to the cost of dies it is high), flying to another country to bury the gold coin, having the coins machined in USA and engraved by myself then I want a certain amount of confidence there will be a lot of interest in the coin. this is the reason I wanted some up front  payment not for you to take the financial risk but to show me you think it is a good idea.

Thanks for answering questions, but I just have a few more concerns:


Ok, but in the real world you either fund your company yourself or get financing, then create a product to sell.  This setup is making the customers also kind of like investors, only with no return even if there is a long wait.


If you are so confident in your process it seems like at least a portion of the pre-orders should be held in escrow.

Also, you say you are using these pre orders to fund another project?  This sounds exactly like what coinographic was claiming to do, take pre-orders (for coins that didn't exist and they had no means to create) in order to fund previously sold coins.


As opposed to refunding the customers if something makes this fall through?

Not saying you wont make this happen, I just have been disappointed in the lack of accountability in BTC related companies & products.  I for one will not be pre-ordering anything BTC related unless some sort of escrow is used, and a firm timeline of when the product can be expected is established.  I just think its somewhat arrogant to say that you for some reason don't need escrow, and must use a pre-order system, when many other coin makers have done fine without it.

Thank you for this. The private key will be incontact with the other surface which has a decoy engraved on. I have had dealings with radiography for testing welds for porosity and lack of fusion. These are very tiny defects which are very detectable. From my experience there will be parts (not everywhere) where you can differentiate which side the engraving was on but with the right manipulation this can be overcome. I am from an Engineering background and your concerns are quite right but I also am confident it will not be readable.

Buying....

After getting in early and getting the original PBC coins (way way back when), then all the Microsouls, I will grab an early one of these too. Love the new design, and interesting concept both for the coin itself, and the hunt (was that you I saw digging in my back garden ?  )

Agree with the bad taste after coinographic,  but I have dealt with Gravitate for a while now. I dont believe it is the same. I am happy preordering in this instance. I have seen some of the issues Gravitate has had with some of the earlier runs, and he has always worked through the issues to satisfactory conclusion and full delivery. If he were a new kid on the block .... I would have reservations

Interested to hear about the other coin

When I think of preorders, it reminds me of all the mining companies in the early ASIC race. Pretty much all companies screwed over preorder customers one way or another.

1. First of all I like the idea about something new and innovative - great job.

2. Preorders - No thanks.

3. There is a potential security breach with the engraved private keys.
I have worked with x-ray machine for inspecting soldering on electronic print circuit boards.
The machine is sensitive enogh to show hair fine cracks in a soldering balll under a BGA.
I am almost certain that it will be possible to copy the key without destroying the coin,
using one of these machine (which is fairly common in the industry).

Wow the coins looks great. But Im not interested to buy some. Good luck finding some buyers.

I would listen to your potential customers... No preorder.
Good luck with your project.

Hi I have also paid for all my own products before and I also have another coin in production right now which is similar to this one (1 troy ounce silver with hidden prizes) but not as involved and less complications (this one I am 100% funding). The problem with the buried treasure coin there is a huge amount of labour, travel and time involved. To be honest the pre sale was not 100% about getting the money but it was to gauge the interest also.

As for getting an investor goes then no that's really not a good idea unless you hike up the prices in order to pay them something in return. This is no good for the people buying the coin as far as I am concerned. As people know who have bought from me before my profit margins are very small and I want to keep it that way.

Also as I have said I have been in the coin business for just over 2 years so I am confident this project will go to plan. I am not a new entity who wants to make a physical coin with no idea how to handle the finances, utilise the best mints and deal with customers. As I have said I have been doing this for a long time and have the experience so as to not make any dumb mistakes like the story I read about coinographic. I have made mistakes and I have always sorted them out.

But as many people do have their concerns about this then I have thought about it and I will reduce the pre orders to 15. Also if you do pre order you will get an additional replica coin but with no private key on the inside. It will basically be a 1 troy ounce silver token with the map on (obviously only 15 will ever be made).

So only 15 pre orders required and if you are one of these not only will you have the lowest serial numbers but you will have a very limited addition 1 of 15 coin.

I hope this suits everyone? Let me know your thoughts.

NO PREORDERS!  NO PREORDERS!!  NO PREORDERS!!!  Just NO!

Interesting concept...

But biggest red flag (not saying you are a scammer), is the pre order concept.

One word: COINOGRAPHIC

If you can't fund the project I suggest you get an investor to back you.

Asking customers to fund your project is in my opinion immoral at this point in Bitcoin's history.

As a coin maker myself, I would not say this unless I do it myself. And yes I have paid for all of my own products upfront before ever taking a single order from a customer. That is how you should operate your business to gain integrity in this community.

Hopefully my words are of encouragement to you in this project.

Good luck!

Love this idea, so unique and would be great to show the grandkids sometime in the future. Glad to see your plans advancing to the next stage. I would want one of them but agree that 35 pre-orders would probably take a little while to be filled with the price of the coin, the physical Bitcoin market right now, and the Coinographic scandal recently having taken place abusing pre-orders.
Excited to see more details released in this thread. Any info. about your other new coin to be released- is it a new MicroSoul?

very interesting

Love buried treasure ideas like Masquerade and Perplex City, so hope this does well. Keeping an eye on the thread, wondering whether to cash in a Casascius in exchange..

I have firm quotations on travel, machining and other costs incurred. I have done the maths repeatedly so as to make sure everything works out ok. Also the pre sale is the only way to make sure all my efforts do not go to waste. The price of silver is not exactly a major concern as the silver is actually already owed to me by a Mint.
1. I started at an ideal value of how many I would like to sell before manufacture starts. I would possibly reduce this pending on how much interest there is.
2. Escrow- No I don't really want to go down this road as I already have another coin in late design that I will be funding so the pre orders will help with cash flow as the process of making the coin goes.
3. An option would to be sell a small quantity unfunded coins. Like a limited run of the original coins that have no machining done. But the damage to the coin will not be so bad. With some slight semi skilled workmanship (by anyone) you will be able to get the coin to a reasonable state but the evidence of tampering will be there.
4.From asking a few members before the announcement of the coin I did ask and I have made the final gold coin location 1 flight away from where you will be in the world (depending on connections) i.e. you will only have to travel to one location when ever you work out where that location will be and from there navigate to the Gold coin.
5. Yes I really like cryptolator coins. Actually they gave me the idea of having a scene on the back of the coin. In this case there are chained up slaves parading from the bank enslaved by the bankers. All this while the Sun is a bitcoin which is melting the banks and freeing the people, giving them chance to fight the people who enslaved them.

I will think about the pre order status and modify the thread tomorrow.
Thanks for your input!

That still doesn't solve the pre-order arrangement, I think that is also a concern.  Do you have firm quotes for your fabrication/machining costs?  What about variations in the price of silver?

gravitate...great concept...and very innovative in both the coin design and treasure hunt.

A couple things...

1.  The community was badly burned (myself included) on the coinographic fiasco.  There will likely be a lot of people averse to doing another big ticket pre-order.  

Even before coinographic, it took a while to get 20 people to pre-order for example ognasty's Nastyfans 5 oz silver, though thankfully it was successful.  He accepted partial pre-orders of $100 up front.

I fear it may take months to get the 35 pre-orders for a big ticket item again, which makes the buyers wait for a long time with money tied up and worrying if the coin will get made.

2. Though I personally have purchased from you and trust you, may I suggest accepting escrow?  Another option is crypto crowdfunding via say startjoin.

3.  Any chance not having this coin funded?  I cant picture anyone wanting to destroy their coin to get the key inside.  Unless the coin can be relatively easily opened and put back together with just a indication of tampering, I don't know how many people will want to do it.

Even if the coin appears tampered with, what stops someone from sending it to ANACS to have it sealed in a holder to hide the fact it was opened?

4.  Can you provide any more details about the treasure hunt?  For example, how many places / countries you have to visit, to get an idea of the level of effort?

5.  The design has a little bit of cryptolator "unchained" in it.  Crumbling banks, people, coins, chains.  I like it.

Good luck with the effort.  I for one will be ordering a coin.

There is no adhesive/ metalic fusion or compression fitting anywhere near the private key so the 2 parts can be separated and leave the private key intact. When opened it will only be the sides of the coin near the outer ring that will be physically damaged. When the coin has been opened it will still look half ok but you will see tamper marks around the ring of the coin.

With the holographic stickers it is possible to use a lot of patience and get them off with some kind of non polar substance such as naptha etc which has been documented. With these coins with the engraving within the coin it is practically impossible and I would welcome anyone to try.


Hi so basically that is exactly what I intend to do. The customer pays 270 GBP then when the coin is finished they will send 1 BTC so I will then ship the coin and then fund when the coin arrives to the purchaser. This way there is absolutely zero risk of the volatility of the bitcoin value.

I have seen coins like this.....I actually have a US 50 cent piece that is actually 2 coins that is milled in such a way that on fits inside the other an looks like one coin..... It's a magic trick a bought on vacation..to get the 2 coins apart you need a ring that has a lip that it sits in and you just bang it on a table to get it apary....on one of the halves is stamped a copper English penny..The trick is to show the 50 cent and the English penny....some slight of hand and you snap the 2 together...now you have one coin..And the English penny is gone.......I've always thought it would make a great physical bitcoin...So I'm understanding the coin concept and like it......the milling work will be extreamly detailed...down to the 10000s of an inch...

WOW .....I hope you are successful with this....Great Concept..... Don't let us down...

What about funding the coin?  What if BTC price shoots up even 10-15%?  Wouldnt it make sense to wait until the coin is made and then fund it right when each coin is ordered?  Doesn't that seem to be the only way to protect your business and the customers at the same time? 

Seems like you want to avoid the same preorder setup coinographic had...

So how would you ever redeem it without potentially ruining the keys while cutting it open?

I will say some simple stuff here to try make it understandable. Lets say you start with a coin and chop it in half through its center so you have 2 thinner coins. You then engrave a private on one side and some other characters on the other and then stick them together. You can only read the key if you part the 2 halves. This shows you the concept of the private key security.

BUT ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE:
It isn't simply a coin chopped in half it requires a lot of machining on a metal lathe. So to make one of these coins you actually need to start with 2 coins to make only one. From 2 minted coins you end up with 1 finished product and some scrap metal which goes towards the machining. The actual visible cut/seal line just inside the outer ring of the coin making it invisible to the naked eye. The 2 parts of the coin are sealed securely in such a way it is impossible to part the 2 pieces with out causing visible damage to the finished product.

Does this answer your question?

I am interested, but can you show us a rendering of how the private keys would work? Is it a piece of metal in the coin that is engraved on both sides? How would the coin be damaged retrieving the key?

Oh Actually just read about coinographic. Yes everyone has been stung by the fall in Bitcoin price but if you are going into a business with precious metal and bitcoin its very important in the current climate to not hold the monies in bitcoin. Remember I said:

I will take payment in Bitcoin for the 275 GBP to start with in bitcoin based on the sell rate on www.bitbargain.co.uk

This is so I can convert the BTC to FIAT immediately and hence you will not be getting any updates like 'sorry I kept all the sales money in bitcoin and the price crashed so all your money is gone' which is what I summarised in the coinographic episode.

Anyway I have been in the physical side of things for 2 years now and still going and still passionate about it. I am confident this series of coins will initiate some good press for bitcoin.

Hi not sure what happened with the coinographic to be fair why did they take pre orders? I am 150% confident the coin can be made and how to do it. Also I have another coin that will be in production soon that will only be sold after it is manufactured. the reason I am pre selling this one is because of the extraordinarily high labor, time, travel and effort in producing them and the concept. Also with the fact that they are a high premium coin. If it was a regular physical bitcoin then yes there is no need what so ever but this one is different.

Also there will be 2 surfaces facing each other within the coin. One with the private key on and the other with 'gobbledy gook' on so you can not read the private key with any x ray or modern scanner.

I'm not quite clear how this works.


A lot of people got burned with the Coinographic preorder, perhaps it is better to make the coin first and then sell them.

Let me introduce to you a new coin which has something rather special features. The coin is 1 Troy ounce Fine silver that comes with a certificate and in a presentation box.
Each coin contains the value of 1 BITCOIN and unlike conventional physical bitcoins the private key is engraved in a cavity within the coin itself. The coin is not hollow but merely has a surface within the centre of the coin in order to engrave the private key. An issue of security is to be able to read the private key with an x-ray. This has been overcome by engraving characters on the opposite side of the surface of the private key to ensure the private key is 100% not readable.
The only way to obtain the private key is by actually making minimal physical damage to the coin itself so any tampering is evident making the coin possibly the most secure on the market.
What separates this coin truly from the rest is not only the unique design but also that on one of the sides of the coin is what one might say a modern day treasure map. It is a series of clues and cryptic information that leads to a buried treasure. The buried treasure will be exactly the same coin but it will be made of 0.999 Fine gold. There will also be something special with the Gold coin location but this will only be known to the person/ people who find the location of the buried coin. Therefore even if the Gold Coin has been found there will be a bonus for each person who manages to find the location (this will be in relation to an engraving within the purchased coin which will add to the value). I work alone with the clues on the coin, gaining information from experts in various fields individually. The image of the coin will only be available for the people who make a purchase of the coin and will not be released anywhere else. When the coins are ready for shipping I will post a video of me burying the gold coin somewhere which will not give any clues as to where in the world I am. To find the coin you will need to not only ascertain the location of the treasure but then use the coin itself with the local environment to find exactly where it is buried.
This will not be a standard treasure hunt and it is not just a lottery of who will get there first. It  will be very involved to decode the clues so be prepared for a challenging task.
Because of the big overheads involved in this project I will be taking presales. The coin will cost 270 GBP plus 1 Bitcoin. The 270 is the amount to  and the bitcoin can be paid after manufacture.
Only 40 of these coins will be produced and only 5 of the Gold coins will be produced. But these are considered only the 1st series. There are plans for 6 series in total.
Here is the design of the back and the concept of the front.


The back of the coin is the final design and the front will be altered to suite the clues to the real treasure. What you see now is merely a concept of how the clues and information will be displayed.

I am not doing a pre sale any more I am actually now giving 15 people who I have dealt with in the past (who trust me) to have an opportunity to get a serial number 1-15 and invest the price of what a coin would usually cost. In return you get a low serial numbered treasure coin and a fine silver replica (map included but no cavity or bitcoin) 15 only made.


From the time I have 15 investors in the concept of the coin to the delivery of the coin will be approximately 8-10 Weeks due to all the special manufacturing and travel involved.
The buried Gold Coin and its other 4 Coins will also become part of the next series of coins. Each series (I have a plan of 6 at the moment) will connect to each other and the prizes of each series will also connect. This means that if you collect one of each series you will be lead to other great finds but these will be outlined by each release of a new series.

The coin will be minted in Europe and machined in the USA and the final process is to engrave the private keys and make the final seal of the coins which will be done by myself. This means there is every step taken to ensure quality and each entity involved will sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement.
I will take payment in Bitcoin for the 275 GBP to start with in bitcoin based on the sell rate on www.bitbargain.co.uk. Serial numbers from 16-40 will be taken on a 1st come first serve basis based on payment when the coin is ready.

Current Investors by serial number of coin:

001 - monkeynuts
002 - bithalo
003 - TBC
004 - TBC
005 - TBC
006 - TBC
007 - TBC
008 - TBC
009 - TBC
010 - TBC
011 - TBC
012 - TBC
013 - TBC
014 - TBC
015 - TBC

After all Investor slots have been filled then you can sit back and wait for the coin to arrive (obviously with updates) to buy them.