Topic: No worries.. US debt per person only trippled from 2004-2015 (Read 4477 times)

The Japan economy was fine until they started the abenomics, don't believe the media or the economists.

WTF Japan? Ever heard of Bitcoin? Oh yeah, mtgox... nevermind.

That's a good question. I have not been able to find whether the source of Japan and China lending is the government or foreign investors in those countries.  Japan's economy is so screwed up though who knows what they're doing.

Exactly, there is an ownership shift problem in the current monetary system, it should be the one who own the assets get the ownership of both assets and issued money, but banks took ownership of the assets during the money creation process and this caused the biggest robbery in human history

For example, I'm government and I issue 100 billion dollar based on my asset (bond), I should have the ownership of both 100 billion dollar and the asset. However in today's system, if government issue 100 billion dollar based on their asset, the ownership of those bond will belong to FED, which is not owned by the government. So the banks get the ownership of large amount of assets by simply creating money

Similarly, a house manufacturer can issue 1 million dollar based on his asset (house), he should have the ownership of both 1 million dollar and the house. After he spent 1 million dollar, those dollar might come back to him to redeem the house, but until that, he still own the house. In today's system, bank took his house and give him 1 million dollar, and those 1 million dollar is created by the back of that house, this is equal to bank creating money out of nothing and buy his house

Under a gold standard, where money creation can only be backed by gold, banks can not do this, they must first get gold and then issue money, or to say, their money creation is limited by the amount of gold produced, so they can't steal at grand scale like today

53% of total foreign investment in thailand is from japan
1.2 Trillion dollars of US debt is owed to japan

how can japan be lending out so much money if they are in such deep shit themselves ?

List of countries ranked by debt/GDP (hey, at least we're not in the top 10).

 Japan    237.918%    
 Greece    158.546%    
 Jamaica    146.591%       
 Lebanon    139.527%    
 Italy    126.978%    
 Eritrea    125.785%       
 Portugal    111.556%    
 Ireland    117.122%    
 Grenada    112.567%    
 Singapore    111.017%       
 United States    106.525%    

(data from 2012)

The chart measures total public debt, instead of per-capita debt or debt/GDP.
This is why the large economies (US, CHina, Japan, India, Brazil) are shown in red.

You are right. Modified: All loans could either be paid back or written off, extinguishing all debt.

Defaulting is not paying back, so that first sentence is incorrect. Due to interest on debit being higher overall than interest on credit, there is always more debit than credit in the system, and debit will always grow faster. If everyone would pay their debts or otherwise default and lose any collateral, the banks would end up with most of the world's property. That by itself shows the banks being parasites, since they never created anything of value themselves, they only moved and manipulated money, yet they'd own almost everything.

No, i dont mean more debt. They can do it with their cool printing-machines :-)

http://www.cnbc.com/id/44051683

It is owed to anyone who has purchased:
    U.S. Treasury notes and bonds
    Foreign and domestic series certificates of indebtedness, notes and bonds
    Savings bonds
    Government Account Series (GAS)
    State and Local Government series (SLGs) and other special purpose securities.


I remember when Ross Perot ran, his main focus was the $3 trillion debt. He wanted to pay it down in 7 years. Now we have $3 trillion budgets.

then how come china and japan are in debt?

to whom do they owe it?

and where did the fed get all this money?

Oh wait, the fed doesnt even have money...

So why allow them to control our lives, because they are the only ones who can magically poof money debt into existence?

Why should we even pay them what they claim we owe them? What right do they have to claim it is their money?

Just give them all the paper trash called federal reserve notes back and let them shove it in their asses and let's just all use bitcoin or gold or silver or whatever else is fair to use. We dont owe them anything.

about 1.3 trillion to china ,1.2 trillion to japan and the other 12 trillion is national debt to the fed ,4 trillion has been printed fresh via quantative easing
interest alone is nearing  450 billion a year

and to whom do we owe this debt?

I'm afraid that those 1.3 trillion tax revenue only comes when you continuously increase the debt and print more money. If the debt is repaid, the money in economy will be destroyed, means less money to pay the tax, when the day that all the debt is paid off, there will be no money in economy, thus no income tax revenue  

I went on one of those mortgage calculator sites and plugged in our current $18 trillion debt.

With a generous rate of 2%, if we stop borrowing more and start paying a mere $800 billion per year toward the debt we'll have it paid of in 2045.

With annual income tax revenue of $1.3 trillion, that leaves us $500 billion for everything else (including our national defense which we currently spend $526 billion on).

Maybe we can save money on earmarks which cost around $1 billion per year (don't laugh, that was John McCain's entire economic strategy).

i think as long as there are millions of people in the third world willing to work in sweatshops for $1-2  a  day (children included )
then theres no way manufacturing will return to USA or northern Europe where we have human rights and minimum wages and workers unions

even the huge companies like apple and Nike are happy to exploit these countries while selling their goods for top dollar prices in "rich countries"


i dont see  that changing anytime soon

That spread will have to be closed, don't you think?

The problem with that is a us workforce costs 5-10x times more than China or Pakistan or Phillipine or Vietnam etc

Bitcoin is the solution to unsound lending (lenders who have not saved, and loaners who are not willing or able to pay back). Lending reduced to a prudent level will be the result of the all bitcoin endgame. Obviously, because of this, governments will have to be smaller, and the idea of having a government at all will wane. Anarchy!! Now, get out of bitcoin and hoard your dollars, cowards!

Well, Bitcoin can easily crash too. It happened a bit ago, no one can predict it going to complete 0. As far as Bitcoin being a solution for an economic meltdown, I just don't see that happening. It's no surprise Bitcoin isn't a mainstream thing, so for people to say, "forget fiat, hello Bitcoin" to a currency with fluctuating prices, I see that is least feasible. The US needs to stop getting so involved in foreign affairs. Keep manufacturing in the country and maybe we wouldn't owe trillions to China.

Fractional reserve does not change this (it just adds risk of nonpayment). Even I do not want a debt free system, although it could theoretically work for capital (only personal loans for consumption are strictly necessary, businesses could just have more investors in stead). The point is that there are lenders, ultimately those lenders are persons, and in the aggregate, non government persons are the net lenders to the government persons.

Hey, you clipped the anti government rant from my post, I shouldn't reply to you.

A profound form of lending that is occuring in great volume right now, is the so called uncovered entitlements. It goes like this:

We have decided to give you a heart operation when you need it in the future (yes, we are that good). Since not everybody needs one, the smart thing to give you is an insurance for it instead. So here you are, the check for the insurance is already in the mail.

But wait... it is we who are the insurance company, so we just keep the money, in stead of we paying you and you paying back. That's more practical.

The money is not needed now, so we just loan them from the insurance department now and use it or give it to our friends to use. We will pay back sometime, promise!

could you explain how this can work in a system operated under fractional reserve? (except for mass defaulting of the loans)

The first thing to know about governments, is that the government is not the people. The state, that is they, not us.

Governments loan from individuals in the area that is extended to the point where the next government is stronger, also called a country. They also loan from individuals in other countries. (They also loan from other governments, but that is not a part of the answer to your question).

Using currency manipulation, the governments move value from lenders to loaners, including themselves, but that does not change the fact that there is a lender somewhere for each loan.

All loans could in theory be paid back, extinguishing all debt. If the loaners are not able or willing to pay back, the loans could be written off as a loss, same result in the aggregate.

tl;dr Individuals are net lenders to governments.

LOL

And people are happy that the USD value has gone up!

I wonder what will happen after the ride is on the way down? Hopefully they can back the print of money with something worthy.

ahah 

Yup, with more debts.

hopefully in a survival&outdoor-business 

Not relevant, I'm self-employed

hopefully you have enough savings because you will be unemployed then.



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the US can pay any debt at any time:

It will be good because deceiption and lies will be out and they can hopefully reconstruct on better grounds.

the most big countries has more debt, only africa seems green with low debt
USA,China,India are at highest level according to this chart

what you think, they will able to pay back or how much it will increase by 2020

Paying back the national debt is IMPOSSIBLE. Unless we fundamentally change the system, just talking about it is delusional.

http://lisgi1.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/~makse/Modern_Money_Mechanics.pdf

and they expect the usd to surpass the euro, how funny, usd is worth less than my toilet paper

if they dont pay their debt, why should we?

There's not a single country that can pay their debts, let alone the insane debts of countries like the US.

The US will  not repay the debt. So it does not matter how much debt it has. It can also inflate away the debt.

If Ron Paul were elected in 2012, we would be seeing budget surpluses in next year's budget which could be used to start paying down that debt (It would not be $18 trillion either).

what possible answer could there be to address a debt that size ? im intrigued which politician can pay off 18 trillion and what with and over how many years if if the interest alone is $430 billion and growing by the day  ?

When paying the interest on the national debt is more than our budget...it will cause some problems.

Current interest payment is $430 billion.

The proposed Defense budget for this year is $526 billion. We will soon be paying more in interest than for our national defense.

If some politician says they have some plan for fixing the budget and it does not include addressing the huge debt, they are feeding you a pile of shit.

Any estimation on when could this happen ?
 

IMO, the greatest indicator is income. Income does not increase as fast as debt. Now a large part of their income comes from the fact that the house will increase in price later, which is only possible to maintain by more borrowing and more money printing. It can still last for a while, but once you have been on this track for too long and you suddenly find out it is a dead end, maybe there is no way to go back by then

What happens if China or Japan asked for their 2.5 trillion back?

Is that even possible?  Will it just be unpaid forever or will they print more money and send it back?

I don't know how it works tbh....?

So what?  A lot more people are buying their own homes too.  Debt per person isn't really the greatest indicator.

The real danger behind this is that a large part of the fiat money are backed by these debts

When the debt defaults, so goes the value of those fiat money, then the confidence about currency becomes weak, there will be inflation, and FED can only raise interest rate as a counter measure. However, that will trigger another round of assets selling, which further weaken the value of the assets that backing those currency, causing more panic inflation. Then there is no point of return

 
I can't wait for the big collapse. I'm loading my popcorn stock.

"Enact Immolation Initiative"

when all countries are debt ... the RESET of financial system is more easy ... (FMi)

Thats why when they say "USD IS RECOVERING!!!" they never talk about shit like this. Its a massive scam.

And who says bitcoin is not the solution to all these problems.

usa is in debt by 1.3 trillion to china and 1.2 trillion to japan iirc  but majority of the debt is homemade

I think that the better graph would be the one that shows the colors based on debt as %GDP.
Just it's not loading up for me

Also, imho, more alarming is that in US the public debt change is >10%

We know that, the US is a free country, its federal reserve can print as much money as it wants. Up to the point where people suddenly realizes that always creating more money creates more problems than it solves, and that the faster the money is created, the faster it depreciates.

the US government can keep borrowing "new treasuries"  from the "fed"
i dont see what else they can do and if anyone says  no all the banks will fail at once ?
i read somewhere that debt to GDP is/ was at 108% recently so it maybe fucked even more than greece on paper anyway .....

Looking at Q3 2014 it shows that the debt to GDP ratio is over 100%. This is when bad things start to happen.

Greece passed 100% in 2005. The first austerity measures were implemented in 2010 by the EU to save the Greek economy.


The United States does not have an "EU" to implement austerity measures.

The United States issues Treasury Bonds. Anyone, including US and foreign citizens, can buy those bonds. Some foreign governments also buy them for the stability of the investment.

As above, so below. Americans are only following the example of their elected leaders.

U.S.A is the country that didn't take personal finance in highschool...

The 'richer' the country, the higher the debt.

I checked the map. It is saying that all the countries have some debt, even the green ones. I wonder, then who is lending ? I mean, is there any country without a debt ?

p.s. Sorry, I'm not good in economics.

its not in their best interests to  keep it updated ........its going to get bigger until it collapses
but nobody wants to say  what happens when the music stops ......
just keep printing away is all they can do now .......imagine the compounded interest on 18+ trillion

It is strange that that map says the US debt is $14 trillion. It is over $18 trillion by now.

Did you notice how many of the "Doomsday Preppers" {TV Series} in the USA are preparing for a total US economic collapse in comparison to other disasters?

The people know what is coming, and they just ignoring it, because it has become the norm. They also have a false sense of security, in the fact that the government bailed out HUGE banks, with the last economic meltdown. 

You can only stimulate a economy with tax money and printing extra money, for so long. At some stage, it will collapse and it will bring a global financial crysis. {We will all suffer for the mistakes of one country}

The same happened with the Euro { The PIGS countries nearly brought the whole Euro zone to it's knees }

Ignorance is a bliss. 
 

who cares ? they are going to keep the pedal to the metal until it breaks regardless.........
printing free money can not stop or it would be literally the end of the world
2big2fail

This is interesting in a way
A chart that makes african debt look like a minor thing

No worries.. US debt per person only trippled from 2004-2015

US debt per person 2004 $13.572
US debt per person 2015 $45.869

http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock