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Topic: Nodes, wallet question. (Read 307 times)

Lakai01

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Quote from: ?? on ??

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You can enter BIP 39 mnemonic/words when restoring wallet, but Electrum only generate mnemonic/words which is based on their own system (called "Electrum Seed Version System").

For the sake of completeness, if anyone wants to know what the exact difference is between an Electrum seed and the BIP39 standard:
The topic was discussed here on the board at the beginning of 2023: BIP39 vs Electrum Mnemonic seed

TL;DR:

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on February 08, 2023, 06:22:53 AM

Also, Electrum does not use a fixed wordlist like BIP39 does. BIP39 seed phrases will only work with the BIP39 wordlist. Electrum seed phrases will work with any wordlist you want. It uses the BIP39 one simply out of convenience, but you can replace the wordlist in the Electrum directory and use any wordlist you like.

satscraper

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Quote from: satscraper on November 11, 2023, 09:02:45 AM

Quote from: Bch219 on November 11, 2023, 08:32:38 AM

But one last question; Can ELECTRUM be considered as a hd wallet?
And what other examples do we have that are beginner friendly?

Yeah, ELECTRUM is a hd wallet which means it generates keys in accordance with BIP32 standard but its genuine SEED phrases are not BIP39 compliant (though use the full BIP 39 wordlist).

but Electrum only generate mnemonic/words which is based on their own system (called "Electrum Seed Version System").

That is true, which means that "genuine Electrum's SEED phrases are not BIP39 compliant".

Electrum wallet supports BIP39 SEED at restoring but does not generate it. Electrum's SEED generation scheme was introduced when BIP39 one was not existed:

Quote from: https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/seedphrase.html

Thus, my initial statement was exactly accurate, IMHO.

satscraper

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 11, 2023, 08:32:38 AM

But one last question; Can ELECTRUM be considered as a hd wallet?
And what other examples do we have that are beginner friendly?

Yeah, ELECTRUM is a hd wallet which means it generates keys in accordance with BIP32 standard but its genuine SEED phrases are not BIP39 compliant (though use the full BIP 39 wordlist).

I would advocate Sparrow as software HD and BIP39 compliant wallet for both novices and experienced users.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 11, 2023, 08:32:38 AM

But one last question; Can ELECTRUM be considered as a hd wallet?

Yes, absolutely. Electrum wallets use a seed phrase, from which all your private keys are generated in a deterministic pattern as I described above, which means backing up only your seed phrase is sufficient to back up your entire wallet.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 11, 2023, 08:32:38 AM

And what other examples do we have that are beginner friendly?

Almost all wallets these days are HD wallets, and that includes both software wallets and hardware wallets. Wallets other than Electrum I would recommend would be Sparrow (software) and Passport (hardware).

Bch219

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 09, 2023, 05:04:20 AM

The vast majority of wallets in use today are hierarchical deterministic wallet. This simply means that all the private keys in the wallet are generated in a deterministic (procedural) way, following a set hierarchy (pattern). In simple English, the wallet takes your seed phrase and generates a tree of private keys using a set process, meaning that you can use your seed phrase to recover your entire wallet and all your private keys and addresses.

This differs from original bitcoin wallets in which each private key was randomly generated from scratch, and you therefore had to back up each private key individually.

Wow, I’ve always thought HD meant hardware wallet, which means I’ll have to go back and reread some articles I read before so that I can get the correct information they were trying to pass off.

But one last question; Can ELECTRUM be considered as a hd wallet?
And what other examples do we have that are beginner friendly?

Quote from: tbct_mt2 on November 11, 2023, 08:16:10 AM

~~~

50 bucks might worth little for most people here but it’s not for me; although I have it in my bucket list, I’ll surely setup a full node when I’m capable to do so financial, I want to see what I’ve been studying for myself.

tbct_mt2

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

What's the differences between bitcoin core and bitcoin wallet?

Bitcoin Core is one of Bitcoin wallet softwares, it's not the only wallet software to store bitcoin or to run a Bitcoin node.

But it is a most famous Bitcoin wallet software and a most trusted one to run a Bitcoin full node.

Quote

I always thought bitcoin core was a wallet, but in order to run it, you'd have to download the blockchain data, which would require some things, as stated in my previous thread, but while reading through "learnmeabitcoin" they kept using "bitcoin core" and "wallet" in a way that makes them look completely different. Or are they using the term "wallet" to refer to "SPV" in this context?

SPV is for Simple Payment Verification and I think you can guess role and feature of SPV wallet software.

You can read an example with Electrum wallet. https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/spv.html

Download Bitcoin Core from https://bitcoincore.org/en/download/
Verify the wallet and set up your full node with Bitcoin Core.
[Guide] How to run a Bitcoin Core full node for under 50 bucks!

If you are still unclear about Bitcoin Full Node and Wallet softwares to run a full node, you can read this topic
Cryptocurrency Client Categorization (Full node, Pruned node, SPV node,...)

satscraper

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

What's the differences between bitcoin core and bitcoin wallet? I always thought bitcoin core was a wallet, but in order to run it, you'd have to download the blockchain data, which would require some things, as stated in my previous thread, but while reading through "learnmeabitcoin" they kept using "bitcoin core" and "wallet" in a way that makes them look completely different. Or are they using the term "wallet" to refer to "SPV" in this context?

Bitcoin Core is a software which consists of two integrated parts - node and wallet. The node part is mainly responsible for communication with other nodes( transmitting&getting transactions, validating them) as well as for the keeping of the fresh (when being synchronized) copy of blockchain while the wallet part (which has internal API to communicate with the node) has a concern ( mainly) over getting UTXOs state relevant to the controlled private-public key pairs (not to mention the generation of those pairs and transactions building).

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Bitcoin Smith on November 08, 2023, 02:50:31 PM

SPV wallets are nothing but Simplified Payment Verification for example electrum which doesn't download the entire blockchain data to operate but connect with already existing peers which are considered as trustworthy so you can just install and access the wallet instantly.

I would note that there is nothing "trustworthy" about Electrum servers. They are simply servers, and there is no mechanism to assign ratings to servers as either "trustworthy" or "malicious". Electrum gets around this problem by connecting to multiple different servers rather than just one, but you could very easily connect to a malicious server which either tries to feed you incorrect data or (more likely) surveil your transactions.

Quote from: Bitcoin Smith on November 08, 2023, 02:50:31 PM

private key (imagine it as key to your safe) - It's a long, randomly generated string of numbers and letters.

Most private keys are not randomly generated, but rather deterministically generated from your random entropy. This is why the same seed phrase can reproduce the same private keys in different wallets.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 04:53:06 PM

If 2^96 private key can generate any private key and address doesn’t that mean that two private key would be able to generate the same public address?

Correct. But practically, it will never happen. The number of possible addresses is simply too large to ever find a collision.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 04:53:06 PM

Sorry, by “HD wallet” do you mean Hardware wallet? I understood the rest part just wanted to know what you meant by HD wallet.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

What's the differences between bitcoin core and bitcoin wallet? I always thought bitcoin core was a wallet, but in order to run it, you'd have to download the blockchain data,

They intentionally separated the 'Node' from the 'Wallet' when referring to each because those are separate modules of Bitcoin Core.
For example: If the user want to run a node without a wallet, it has an option to do so.

Also, "Bitcoin Core" is the name of a software, the reference client for running a Bitcoin Node and a Bitcoin wallet.
So if they used that name in an article, they are referring to the whole software,
if they used the term "wallet", they are referring to the wallet,
if they used the term "node", they are referring to a Bitcoin node (may be anything aside from Bitcoin Core).

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 04:53:06 PM

I still don’t get this part, this was what I saw that made me include the question in this thread. If 2^96 private key can generate any private key and address doesn’t that mean that two private key would be able to generate the same public address? Please if it’s possible for you to explain it in a more simpler form I would greatly appreciate it.

I just edited my previous post, as I noticed I made a mistake.

There are nearly 2²⁵⁶ valid private keys and 2¹⁶⁰ addresses. (There are more addresses, if we consider different types of addresses).
Therefore, any address can be generated by around 2⁹⁶ private keys on average.

Note that in practice, it's impossible that you can have mutliple private keys that generate the same address. 2²⁵⁶ is a very big number and you can't find the collisions.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 04:53:06 PM

Sorry, by “HD wallet” do you mean Hardware wallet? I understood the rest part just wanted to know what you meant by HD wallet.

No, HD wallet means Hierarchical Deterministic wallet.

Bch219

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Quote from: Bitcoin Smith on November 08, 2023, 02:50:31 PM

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

I believe nodes are already programmed to accept/confirm transactions based on some rules and if a transaction fails to meet those rules it won’t be passed on. And since we are dealing with something that was programmed by a human, is there a possibility that a node could malfunction or for an abnormality to occur and then accepts a transaction that does not meet those rules? If something like that happens is there a way for other node to detect such transaction and drop it from the chain?

Nodes doesn't confirm the transactions only miners can include and confirm the transaction, it only validates them and if there is a node that contains wrong data then it will be rejected by other nodes and that is what we call the decentralized network.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

Bitcoin core is also a bitcoin wallet, but it can have the entire blockchain data and acts as a node too so if you want to participate in the decentralization of bitcoin network then you also can join by running a full node. SPV wallets are nothing but Simplified Payment Verification for example electrum which doesn't download the entire blockchain data to operate but connect with already existing peers which are considered as trustworthy so you can just install and access the wallet instantly.

Thank you for your explanations and corrections.

Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 08, 2023, 03:43:33 PM

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

Any public key and any address can be generated by 2^96 private keys on average.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

What is the distinction between "private key, secret phrase, public key, and public address"? I tried researching it and still couldn't make sense of it, so I'd appreciate it if someone could explain it to me in a simpler way.

To receive fund, you need to have a bitcoin address and give it to anyone who wants to send you bitcoin.
You need the private key associated with your address for unlocking the fund you receive.

A private key generates a public key and the public key generates your address.
Usually, you don't need to know your public key at all.

Instead of having a single private key and a single address, you can use a HD wallet and generate a seed phrase.
A Seed phrase is a series of words. It usually contains 12 or 24 words and it's also called a recovery phrase or mnemonic phrase.
With using a HD wallet, you can have numerous addresses all generated from a single seed phrase.

Sorry, by “HD wallet” do you mean Hardware wallet? I understood the rest part just wanted to know what you meant by HD wallet.

Thanks you so much for your support so far.

Z-tight

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

is there a possibility that a node could malfunction or for an abnormality to occur and then accepts a transaction that does not meet those rules? If something like that happens is there a way for other node to detect such transaction and drop it from the chain?

There can be malicious nodes, but they stand nothing to gain. Nodes validate tx's and relay it to other nodes, if you as a node include invalid data or tx's, it would be rejected by other nodes.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

What's the differences between bitcoin core and bitcoin wallet?

BTC core is a BTC full node client which you use to run the entire BTC blockchain, so you can verify everything locally and also help to add more security to the BTC network. BTC core is also a wallet, one that gives you better privacy than SPV clients because you don't have to connect to third party servers, but to only your own server.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

~~Any public key and~~ Any address can be generated by 2^96 private keys on average.

Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

Bitcoin Smith

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Quote from: Bch219 on November 08, 2023, 02:42:31 PM

.
What is the distinction between "private key, secret phrase, public key, and public address"? I tried researching it and still couldn't make sense of it, so I'd appreciate it if someone could explain it to me in a simpler way.
.

Secret Phrase or Seed Phrase - master key for all of your private keys which can be combination of 12/18/24 words. Using seed phrase you can generate all the private keys associated with that.

private key (imagine it as key to your safe) - It's a long, randomly generated string of numbers and letters.

Public Key ( your mobile number) - This is something you can share and others can contact you using this such as send their Bitcoins to your address.

Only you can access the bitcoin associated with it since it needs private keys to authorize it. And the hashed version of public key is public address.

Bch219

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I have a few questions from what I have studied so far, some are from my studies while others are just from my imagination.

I believe nodes are already programmed to accept/confirm transactions based on some rules and if a transaction fails to meet those rules it won’t be passed on. And since we are dealing with something that was programmed by a human, is there a possibility that a node could malfunction or for an abnormality to occur and then accepts a transaction that does not meet those rules? If something like that happens is there a way for other node to detect such transaction and drop it from the chain?

Another thing I encountered that caught my curiosity was this discussion I saw on bitcoin.stackexchange.com (recommended in my previous thread) Concerning the number of public keys that a single private key can generate... According to one response, the logic is as follows: generate one public key from a private key, and then use the public key to generate multiple public addresses.

What is the distinction between "private key, secret phrase, public key, and public address"? I tried researching it and still couldn't make sense of it, so I'd appreciate it if someone could explain it to me in a simpler way.