Nokia Hardware Wallet? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Accardo

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Quote from: PrivacyG on November 16, 2022, 03:10:20 PM

Quote from: Pmalek on November 15, 2022, 04:20:58 AM

It doesn't, but you know how it goes. You try something with pocket change and it works. So the next time you do it with more money and it works nicely again. Maybe you tell a few friends about it and they try it out as well. Someone puts more money then they are supposed to on a wallet like that, a mistake happens, and bam the money is gone. After a deeper inspection by security experts, we find out the concept was flawed from the beginning and full of holes. I am not saying that's the case here, of course.

I perfectly get what you mean. I think I even said this a while ago over here. It is all fun and games until the project actually becomes more popular than we wish and then it could end up as a big problem. It is fun experimenting, but many do not get it and will turn it into something stupid.

There is one use case I am thinking of right now. Traveling. Nobody would steal an old Nokia phone, unless you are maybe in a third world country.

-
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PrivacyG

Its a fresh innovation, just like you pointed that it's nobody's desire to steal old Nokia phones. Similarly, attackers don't care about old Nokia phones now, til the whole formula gets famous, and old phones starts getting demands again in the market because they can be used for hardware wallets.

Additionally, these phones have got internet access and bluetooth which is not a nice criterion for a hardware wallet, though no one still utilizes such phones to an extent of downloading games with viruses, But never can we tell, they are different people who would jump on the DIY old phones hardware wallet if it gets popular, and attackers can easily build malwares targeting Java phones. No one would understand it was built for fun when things go wrong.

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Quote from: DaveF on November 14, 2022, 11:32:30 AM

Part of the issue is, and I have said this before, we don't know what we don't know/ It looks like he is using an integrated random function of the phones OS to generate the entropy. Without a deep dive into the hardware. I don't know what information HMD Global gives out about that kind of stuff. And if they did, I probably would not be able to understand it anyway....

Workaround for this would be to generate secure seed words offline (using dices for example) and them import them in Nokia phone.
Device doesn't have secure element but you could add PIN codes that already exist, and maybe add additional passphrases for better protection.
I would much more trust offline generation of seed that random closed source secure elements for this work, so this applies for all hardware wallets.

I would appreciate if someone gets a hold of one of this Nokia devices, consider testing this app with testnet and post your feedback here.
I am also checking out local flea markets for this phones, so it's possible I will do the same in future Wink

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 16, 2022, 01:03:02 PM

Quote from: m2017 on November 16, 2022, 11:58:44 AM

Then you don't have to depend on HW manufacturers and there is more freedom.

You are still depending on something. In this particular example, you are not depending on a hardware wallet manufacturer like before, but you are depending on the developers of the Nokia phones and all their software and hardware components + the creator of this experimental new project. He himself suggests using it just for testing purposes and something to play around with, but to leave your hard-earned money on proper hardware devices that were created for those purpose.

I understand your point of view and recognize the correctness of what you said. That's right, at this stage, in BitcoinMRE project there is a dependency in both software and hardware. But technology doesn't stand still, and this direction, in my opinion, seems promising and preferable when viewed from the standpoint of privacy and anonymity. In the case of buying a hardware wallet, you leave your data, whether online or offline purchase. But when you buy an old nokia phone or take it out of your locker, it won't attract anyone's attention. The fact that the software is untested is a matter of time, and yet it is an open source app. The idea that you take almost any device, install software on it and get a hardware wallet seems flawless to me (how safe can be implemented from a technical point of view). Of course, now all this is in its infancy, but perhaps someday it will become a popular solution among crypto enthusiasts.

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Quote from: PrivacyG on November 16, 2022, 03:10:20 PM

If I remember correctly, there were these 'boxes' you could buy to bypass lock codes although I am not entirely sure they were legitimate or a scam at all. Does this not significantly lessen the security of this kind of wallet?

I am not sure what kind of hardware is available to the general public, but law enforcement certainly has interesting tools that can do all kinds of things. Even those located in shitty countries. I know an IT guy who works computer forensics. Part of his job is to inspect seized mobile phones in search for proof and clues. Assuming we are talking about the same type of "boxes", he takes a standard smartphone, connects it to the box, and he can access address books, SMS messages, 3rd-party software even with standard phone protections enabled. And he isn't working in a country known for the quality of their police and law enforcement. We probably can't even imagine what they have in the US, Israel, Germany, etc.

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 15, 2022, 04:20:58 AM

It doesn't, but you know how it goes. You try something with pocket change and it works. So the next time you do it with more money and it works nicely again. Maybe you tell a few friends about it and they try it out as well. Someone puts more money then they are supposed to on a wallet like that, a mistake happens, and bam the money is gone. After a deeper inspection by security experts, we find out the concept was flawed from the beginning and full of holes. I am not saying that's the case here, of course.

I perfectly get what you mean. I think I even said this a while ago over here. It is all fun and games until the project actually becomes more popular than we wish and then it could end up as a big problem. It is fun experimenting, but many do not get it and will turn it into something stupid.

There is one use case I am thinking of right now. Traveling. Nobody would steal an old Nokia phone, unless you are maybe in a third world country. Nobody would give a damn about an old Nokia phone when crossing borders either, maybe except US and the likes. It is much less of a robbery target than a Ledger or a Trezor is. Moreover, since old Nokia batteries used to last forever, I imagine it would be such a great solution for someone who needs a portable Bitcoin wallet.

But when it comes to security, are old Nokia's safe? As in, can you not easily penetrate as a hacker such a device even with a PIN and all of that? If I remember correctly, there were these 'boxes' you could buy to bypass lock codes although I am not entirely sure they were legitimate or a scam at all. Does this not significantly lessen the security of this kind of wallet?

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PrivacyG

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Quote from: m2017 on November 16, 2022, 11:58:44 AM

Then you don't have to depend on HW manufacturers and there is more freedom.

You are still depending on something. In this particular example, you are not depending on a hardware wallet manufacturer like before, but you are depending on the developers of the Nokia phones and all their software and hardware components + the creator of this experimental new project. He himself suggests using it just for testing purposes and something to play around with, but to leave your hard-earned money on proper hardware devices that were created for those purpose.

m2017

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keep walking, Johnnie

I think that the idea of using old nokia as a HW device is not just a good idea, but flawless. This is what decentralization should look like, when it will be possible to download software on any old phone (with restrictions, of course) and use it as a hardware wallet. Then you don't have to depend on HW manufacturers and there is more freedom. It will only take some time to optimize these ideas and turn them into reality. At the moment, I would not seriously count on BitcoinMRE and would rather wait until everything starts to work stably. But in general, I would like the developments in this direction to develop, including the list of available phone models on which this software can be installed. It seems to me that the future of cypherpunks lies precisely in such projects, providing freedom and independence.

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Farewell, Leo. You will be missed!

Quote from: DaveF on November 14, 2022, 11:32:30 AM

But, for small amounts of coins does it really matter for a fun hobby project?

It doesn't, but you know how it goes. You try something with pocket change and it works. So the next time you do it with more money and it works nicely again. Maybe you tell a few friends about it and they try it out as well. Someone puts more money then they are supposed to on a wallet like that, a mistake happens, and bam the money is gone. After a deeper inspection by security experts, we find out the concept was flawed from the beginning and full of holes. I am not saying that's the case here, of course.

DaveF

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Quote from: Pmalek on November 13, 2022, 05:54:09 AM

Interesting project. I am currently using a modern Nokia smartphone and I have been happy with it for years already.

I like the honesty of the developer because he is actually recommending that people invest in and use proper hardware wallets instead of hobby projects like the one he created.
One of the questions that pops up is how secure the entropy is in this project. The developer calls it "decent", but someone who knows more about these things should check it out. He actually said he doesn't know how safe the private key generation is.

Part of the issue is, and I have said this before, we don't know what we don't know/ It looks like he is using an integrated random function of the phones OS to generate the entropy. Without a deep dive into the hardware. I don't know what information HMD Global gives out about that kind of stuff. And if they did, I probably would not be able to understand it anyway....

But, for small amounts of coins does it really matter for a fun hobby project?

-Dave

Pmalek

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Farewell, Leo. You will be missed!

Interesting project. I am currently using a modern Nokia smartphone and I have been happy with it for years already.

I like the honesty of the developer because he is actually recommending that people invest in and use proper hardware wallets instead of hobby projects like the one he created.
One of the questions that pops up is how secure the entropy is in this project. The developer calls it "decent", but someone who knows more about these things should check it out. He actually said he doesn't know how safe the private key generation is.

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Quote from: DaveF on November 11, 2022, 08:50:42 AM

Why didn't you tell us about this 2 weeks ago?

I saw this information earlier but I didn't have enough free time to create topic before, and I was thinking of testing it first on real phone to see how it works

Quote from: stompix on November 11, 2022, 09:05:49 AM

If those phones have been in storage for more than 5 years high chance they are not going to be of any use.
I have a feeling everyone thought that old Nokia phones will be good for this and when I say old, like the well-known 3310 or my favorite 8810, that silver and slick slide, god how happy I was when playing with it.

This old mobile phones are much more durable than most modern smartphones, you can drop them around and nothing will be broken easily.
I remember their batteries could hold for a week, and new battery is very cheap and easy to replace, in case if old battery dies.
Some of this phones can be found in local flea markets for few bucks, and after years of not using them battery works just fine.

I like style of Nokia N97 with slide-out keyboard, and it would be cool if this could work with Bitcoin MRE.

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Quote from: stompix on November 11, 2022, 09:05:49 AM

Quote from: DaveF on November 11, 2022, 08:50:42 AM

Now I have to dig though more phones that have been in storage around the office forever. Try to clean up, try to recycle and then this happens :-)

If those phones have been in storage for more than 5 years high chance they are not going to be of any use.
I have a feeling everyone thought that old Nokia phones will be good for this and when I say old, like the well-known 3310 or my favorite 8810, that silver and slick slide, god how happy I was when playing with it. But these phones are from the new generation, the oldest on that list seems to be from 2015, and the newest from 2020, pretty hard for a phone like that was bought just two years ago to be already catching dust in some drawer, its older people who buy them and they don't change phones every year.

Still, cute idea but I would probably not store more money than the phone is worth on it.

At least around here, these were what we call airport disposable phones. They are sold pre-paid in vending machines at airports with some minutes & texts & data for not much money for travelers who were either from other countries who had phones that did not work. Or people who just needed a 2nd phone while traveling with a US number. There are a lot of businesses here that use Cable / Fios for their internet & phones and only have the ability to dial North American numbers.

Problem these phones from the airport is they are carrier locked / expensive to re-up on minutes. So they get tossed, and then they wind up in the server room e-waste piles.

But yes, as with all things like this you should never have more funds on your phone then your phone is worth.

The timing was just perfect with me doing the recycle run so recently.

Going to have to try it.

-Dave

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Quote from: DaveF on November 11, 2022, 08:50:42 AM

Now I have to dig though more phones that have been in storage around the office forever. Try to clean up, try to recycle and then this happens :-)

If those phones have been in storage for more than 5 years high chance they are not going to be of any use.
I have a feeling everyone thought that old Nokia phones will be good for this and when I say old, like the well-known 3310 or my favorite 8810, that silver and slick slide, god how happy I was when playing with it. But these phones are from the new generation, the oldest on that list seems to be from 2015, and the newest from 2020, pretty hard for a phone like that was bought just two years ago to be already catching dust in some drawer, its older people who buy them and they don't change phones every year.

Still, cute idea but I would probably not store more money than the phone is worth on it.

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Why didn't you tell us about this 2 weeks ago?

Now I have to dig though more phones that have been in storage around the office forever. Try to clean up, try to recycle and then this happens :-)

Seriously, looks like a good project. But I have to question if using hardware that is that old is worth it, sooner or later something is going to die just due to the age of the phones. If it was just something you were playing with, and that is what I assume most people are going to be doing with this project, then no big deal. But, for the 1 person who was using it for real and did not do proper backup and was relying on it to sign......

Yeah, I know people should know better. Looking at some of the posts here of people who are looking for help because they did something that we knew should not be done but they did it anyway.

-Dave

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Quote from: LTU_btc on November 10, 2022, 07:22:05 PM

So, interesting, would it workd with any other random Nokia phone which have all these things?

You can try for yourself if it works with your phones, but there is higher chance everything will work fine with devices listed by BitcoinComfy developer.
If you manage to install everything correctly or if you have some problems try contacting him on github or twitter.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on November 11, 2022, 03:16:03 AM

I've saved nearly every cellphone I've ever owned, and I know I posted pics of at least one of them in some other thread in the HW wallet section. I think two of them are Nokias, but I'll have to look at which models they are. Going by the pics you posted, I think mine are way too old to be used as wallets (and I'm not sure I'd use them as such anyway, given that I have some HW wallets I already don't use).

Pictures I posted is just an example for newer model of Nokia 5310, but better check your devices for exact model by removing battery.
This phones need to have enough ram, so even Nokia 3310 from 2017 should work, that is redesigned model of famous 3310 shape.
If your phone has apps, than there is more chance it should work with Bitcoin MRE.

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I've saved nearly every cellphone I've ever owned, and I know I posted pics of at least one of them in some other thread in the HW wallet section. I think two of them are Nokias, but I'll have to look at which models they are. Going by the pics you posted, I think mine are way too old to be used as wallets (and I'm not sure I'd use them as such anyway, given that I have some HW wallets I already don't use).

Damn fine idea here, though, in a low-profile and stealthy-type of way.

Quote from: LTU_btc on November 10, 2022, 07:22:05 PM

I have several old Nokia phones laying somewhere, but I'm not even sure that these phones still works.

Yeah, I'm not sure about mine either. I know I can't get any of them to power up, but it could be that the batteries are dead. One of them is so old that I think it needs a charging dock that I've long since discarded.

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I have several old Nokia phones laying somewhere, but I'm not even sure that these phones still works. It would be interesting to give a try. Offcourse, as you said, not for serious use for now, more like for testing purpose.
But I don't have any phones from that list. It's said that phone need to have screen, battery, keyboard, SD card reader and camera. So, interesting, would it workd with any other random Nokia phone which have all these things?

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Do you by any chance have old Nokia phone collecting dust in some box?

Now you can think about giving it new life and converting this old phone into signing device for bitcoin, and make it similar like hardware wallets.

Interesting open source code hobby project was released recently by BitcoinComfy on github (@BitcoinComfy on twitter), it is called BitcoinMRE wallet, and you can use with both for testnet and mainnet.

This is app that can be installed on devices like Nokia 5310 from 2020 that can be purchased for around $20, and it has all that is needed for signing device, screen, keboard, battery, SD card reader and camera.
Developer said that app should also work on Nokia 215, 216, 220, 222, 225, 230 and 3310 (2017) but it needs testing and confirmation.

Other phones that could potentially work with this app:

Code:

Nokia 200
Nokia 320
Nokia 130
Nokia 105
Nokia 150
Nokia 106

Symphony D67
Symphony D64i
Symphony s100
Symphony s100i
Symphony FT60i
Symphony FT540
Symphony SL10
Symphony d52j

Winmax w678
Winmax w102

Micromax x445
Zonda ZM340TH
Alcatel 3003G
Alcatel 3041d
Western D32
Explay tv240
Fly e154
Fly e157
Phillips Xenium x1560
Lenovo MA309
Alcatel OT-2012D
Texet TM-512R
Maxvi (Nokia 225 clone/class-A)

Source and more information with sintructions: https://github.com/BitcoinComfy/BitcoinMRE

It's amazing what people can do with Bitcoin wallets, and I like the idea for this project, but I wouldn't use this for nothing more than experimentation and testing at this stage.

This page is under construction, but you are free to post anything about this topic.

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