Topic: Non-KYC BTC to fiat process (Read 441 times)

Banks in most countries do not like obscure P2P transfers. But even if you do not have the opportunity to change to fiat with private intermediaries, you can open an account in many payment systems and banks. It is likely that 1 P2P transfer per month or two months will not be a red flag for your bank.

From what i've read EU is more strict than the US when it comes to proof of ownership or however they call it. Point is, in the US, i've read you can pretty much safely deposit your stuff in your bank account and as long as it's not some big amount you are good to go if you just pay your taxes.

Now in the EU it may raise alarms considering the funds come from a crypto exchange.
To be honest I don't know what to tell you. The problem with being honest with the government in cases like this is, you don't really know how they will react.
Who is to say that in X years your funds aren't worth enough to move to some tax haven where they will not make questions and just park the funds there. But if that is not an option and you need the funds now, you have no other options. Get an account in Bitpanda or Kraken or some other EU friendly exchange, liquidate the funds (as little as possible), pay taxes and hope there is no further questions asked.

A bank will usually not straight up seize your money without a court order, that'd be too much off a legal headache. Simply closing the account is less of an effort and thus cheaper.

If you fail to provide another bank account they will send your money to an escrow account though, in which case the legal headaches to get your money becomes all yours.

I think they usually ask for another bank account/IBAN to send you your balance via SEPA, before they close your account.

Unless they deem your money is a product of "illegal" activities (whatever that means)... in that case, they will seize it.

yes, I never used it as main account, only few euros there when they informed me about the closure

Did you get your money back somehow?

this happened about 2 years ago,
amounts received in revolut were always below 500 eur, I happened to have a very good month winning sports bets and was cashing the crypto out by p2p bank transfers.

no warning from the bank, they simply notified they were closing my account.
Could not see any other reason

A Binance Card seems the best option to pay your fiat bills. You don't even need to convert to fiat, just send some BTC and keep it in that form.

No one will care, even the card's limit (8700 EUR per day) is lower than the 10k limit and there's no way your bills are that high either way.

Stick with Binance and maybe Revolut, avoid traditional banks.

That's the only thing I don't like from non-KYC exchanges. I'm afraid that I'll have to explain myself sometime in the future, as it's a matter of time to trade with someone who's considered a suspect.

Could you tell us the country and the amounts? I'm curious to know at which amounts they "raise alarms" as you say. If there isn't a privacy concern of course. I've been using Revolut as well.

banks in Europe are subject to the guidelines from the national banks, even if there is european regulation trying to regulate crypto.

But the truth is most don't like to see transfers coming in without any reason.
Receiving money from people with names not common in the country where your bank is can raise alarms (it happened to me).

And it even does not matter how big they are, revolut was one of those that closed my account and had accounts with other neobanks from different countries, all ended up closing my account as soon as I told them I sold crypto.

bla bla bla, financing terrorism, AML, bla bla bla
they are all the same

Then that's what you'll tell your bank. You weren't required to keep an administration, so you didn't keep any records. You're not the only one who did this.

There's no capital gains tax, but there's a capital tax. Assuming you're above the threshold, you're required to report your wealth and pay taxes annually. If you haven't paid yet, they'll still charge you once you report it (and if they find out on their own it's going to be more expensive).

Me too.
KYC isn't the thing to worry about: your bank already knows who you are. I think it's actually worse if you use a shady non-KYC exchange to transfer 30k to your bank account. I'd start with Bitonic, the oldest Bitcoin broker in the country.

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Using a mixer in between makes it harder to prove capital gains, it would help if you find back all original addresses so you can prove where you started. The reason to prove wealth came from Bitcoin's price increase, is because the alternative would be it came from crime. If you suddenly show up with a million euro in Bitcoin, you're going to need a good story to explain it.

I am in the EU also and have made multiple transfers from exchanges to my bank account
throughout a given year, probably about 10 in the year all ranging from ~€100 to over €3000
and I never been asked questions. It's the larger amounts like €10k+ is where they are obliged
by law to ask where the funds came from I suspect.

If it's a sizeable amount you need to transfer, like over €100k maybe consider a Swiss
numbered account with a CC! but I don't know the ins and Outs of that approach.


Yes these are "Shell Company" based in places like the Caymen Islands and are or were
predominantly former British colonies but still have banking ties to England.

Thought I already replied to this but it seems to have been a similar topic.

There are some non-KYC exchanges. I like Bisq as it is a decentralized open-source project.
You can read more about it here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/guide-how-to-buy-and-sell-bitcoin-using-bisq-5430964

They allow quite a few payment methods including direct bank-cashout.
I guess it will depend on the amount you try to cash out and your bank if you will need any advanced verfication of the sold coins later on.

Yeah I guess so. Although technically its his rightfully earned money and he would be paying taxes on it either way, so while it does resemble money laundering, it cannot really compare to the same kind of money laundering as with stolen money/funding illegal activities/avoiding tax responsibilities etc....

Basically OP is willing to pay taxes he/she just wants to avoid the headache of trying to prove its his money. So that is why I mentioned the business part as a possibility.

But you are completely correct. It most probably will be seen as money laundering under the law and its not something I recommend. Just an idea I had.

That would be a picture book example of money laundering so I wouldn't do that!   

But yeah, cashing out slowly in small increments is probably the way to go. Even if you raise some red flags there's noting strictly illegal about owning Non-KYC coins in the EU, so while it could be a hassle it shouldn't come with legal problems (unless you try to e.g. evade taxes or launder it as per the example above).

Well, you really put yourself into a pickle with this one. Since you do not have the requirements to prove the coin really belongs to you, If we are talking about large sums, you could do this either in two ways:

1. Have a talk with the bank/tax authorities about how to process this. Obviously the government will want a share in the taxes.
2. Set up a business which accepts Bitcoin then slowly mix the coin into your own turnover. (I am not sure about the legality of this one so maybe get legal advice.)

Personally, I think you could even cash in, in small increments without people raising an eyebrow. I doubt the bank or the government will become suspicious of you unless you alert them by dealing with unusually large sums of money)

I don't believe that there are no people in the Netherlands who will exchange cryptocurrency for cash.
But if you want to change cryptocurrency through a bank, then do not use your main bank cards for this purpose, on which you receive salaries, benefits, compensations, and so on. For these purposes, use another service.

If the OP wants to do it in his country, then the only correct advice is to send an inquiry to the local authorities and explain his situation to them. As I wrote in the previous post, there are other completely legal ways to do it in some other EU countries without involving banks, CEX and without KYC.

First, would be nice to know where in EUR you're residing as local laws in many EU countries may differ. In many (most) countries there's a maximum non-taxable amount of around 40k EUR. I believe your bills will be smaller than that amount?

You could use a crypto debit card (Binance, Coinbase, Wirex etc.) or p2p local exchange to withdraw and then there are ATM where you can deposit funds to your account with no questions asked. If you keep the amounts reasonable, that won't be a red flag for your bank.

In which country do you live in? If it's one with a tax framework on cryptocurrencies, you're safe to cash out some thousands, if you're willing to pay the tax. I don't believe there's a direct answer to your question, though. Usually, it's fine. You can call this capital appreciation (and it is, indeed) and you'll be fine.

I recommend you asking your local board for a bank that doesn't ask for further info, to have less troubles.

Banks are sometimes a bigger headache than the risk involved in Peer to Peer transactions.  If I was in your situation I would find a place to withdraw a few thousand per month, like three to four times more than monthly expenses to cover following months too, and withdraw once maybe every yearly quarter.

If that money really needs to be in my bank.  I would do Peer to Peer trades and deposit to my bank account the following days.  But not the same amount I traded.  If I sold 2k worth of Bitcoin I would deposit like under 1k probably so transactions are even less likely to be linked.  Many banks hate large earnings for some reason.  And they hate Bitcoin even more.  If you suddenly get a few tens of thousands in your bank then expect to be questioned.

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Regards,
PrivacyG

I'm not sure if the OP is looking for that kind of service, but the truth is that there are physical exchange offices where you can sell or buy up to approximately 2000 EUR per transaction without KYC (fee around 5%) and since there are many of them, you can easily make several such transactions a day. However, the problem is that this money still has no origin and that it is not desirable to deposit it in a bank account, but to spend it on some things that do not attract too much attention.

However, I think that this will also change, especially in the countries that are within the EU and there are increasing pressures that not a single crypto transaction is carried out without KYC.

Utilizing localmonero is one option, but it can be time-consuming and has high fees. Use of the decentralized LibertyTown market is a comparable strategy. You switch between a BTC to PCASH, and then PCASH to bank account. Utilizing this strategy has the benefit of maintaining your anonymity.

You are right if these transfers are to one bank account. Above I wrote a list of payment systems. If you, your wife and other relatives register in these payment systems and receive 4-7 transfers per year, then perhaps such amounts will not be tracked by the tax authorities.

Let's say you convert about 900 euros per trade. Apart from being a pain in the ass, transferring 900 euros 111 times to your account in the same fiscal year can set off alarm bells as well. It would set them off automatically if you transfer the $100k in one but the sum of very small amounts passing a threshold, depending on the country, also sets them off.

You can easily convert upto 100,000 euros worth of bitcoin per annum via p2p exchanges like LBC. And you no need to worry about the proof of income as long as you keep the trade limit under less than thousand euros for a trade.

You can pass level 2 verification with your national ID KYC, and find the reliable traders with high trust score and trading volume.

I will write to you 3 ways to change bitcoins in Russia.
You can exchange bitcoins for fiat at the office, but this may not be safe.
Another way is to send cryptocurrencies and in return receive a QR code that can be used to withdraw money from an ATM. Safu, but the limit is 500-1000 dollars for 1 time.
Legalization. You register as a self-employed freelancer and change cryptocurrency to your accounts in Perfect Money, PayPal, Advanced Cash, Skrill, Payeer, Neteller and other payment systems.
https://www.bestchange.com/
I don’t know how legal and risky it is in your country, but if you are asked where the money comes from, then you will say that you provided consultations and other services for money, and paid taxes on profits.

If you're in the EU then there are probably some businesses around with offices in the Balkan states that will exchange small amounts (let's say hundreds OR thousands) of euros for you in exchange for crypto in there, face-to-face (and without KYC). Maybe you can inquire around and ask for information about them.

If you still have access to the wallets you used in the past, you have documentation in the form of blockchain transactions. When you sell coins on an exchange, you have documentation in the form of the trade history. Just make sure the exchange account is registered to your name.

I never ran into a detailed proof of fund request from an exchange, so I can't tell what those entail. Anecdotal experiences on the German boards vary wildly.

I did have to answer a detailed proof of fund request from a bank though (and another one that wasn't so thorough, but didn't need to be because they straight up told me they'd close my account if I'd received other cryptocurrency related bank transactions in the future). Besides screenshots to proof the ownership of and the trades on my exchange accounts I also provided them with a couple of Bitcoin addresses that were related to the coins I sold. Some were pretty straightforward documented (KYC coins), some not so much (P2P trades). However even the latter didn't result in much of a problem since they each separately were low Euro volume at the time of trade (maybe a few hundred Euro each), ie. the Bitcoin transactions as recorded on the blockchain were sufficient since you can tell the exchange rate based on the timestamp. Some transactions I couldn't quite reconstruct, but again, low volume, at the time, so negligible. However I also hadn't mixed those coins. So that might be tricky. If you still have records of the coins you sent in versus the coins you got out, that might suffice if you still have a somewhat reasonable source for the coins that went into the mixer.

Your mileage may vary wildly though. In that one case I got lucky that the bank had a compliance officer that was somewhat familiar with cryptocurrencies. Other banks I've dealt with were not quite as friendly. The EU may provide the guidelines with how to handle cryptocurrency-related transactions, but different banks have different policies on how to implement those guidelines.

About creating a company for cashing out Bitcoin profits: I'd be careful with that. First of all, you may not actually get tax benefits (eg. in Germany you don't have to pay taxes on the profits if you hold for a year as a private person, but a company would have to make these profits part of their earnings). Second, a company selling Bitcoin may itself warrant deeper scrutiny. And third, in my experience banks that don't want private accounts receiving transactions from Bitcoin sales, also don't want business accounts receiving transactions from Bitcoin sales. Again, your mileage may vary.

The legality of P2P transactions varies between the EU countries. Eg. in Germany it doesn't seem to be legal anymore while in Austria I believe it still is. The regulations have changed over time though, so I'm not sure what the current state is.

consfer.com brings up nothing.

Not happy to KYC on some of the funds, but I can do it if need be.

My main question is what constitutes as 'I own these', when there are no receipts or documentation, bank transactions or anything.
I understand things differ depending on jurisdictions, but it's all new to me.

But even KYC doesn't work when the banks refuse transactions from exchanges and they demand proof of initial purchase to the final transaction.
What a headache.

By the way, does anyone know the legality of P2P transactions? Is it legal to buy and sell BTC for cash from a random person in your jurisdiction?
I read something about having to go through an authorised, legalized entity.


By 'business takes in the BTC' do you mean I set a business or hook up with an existing one?
And if I set up a business, how would the business get hold of the BTC and convert them to cash? Don't they run into the same issue?

I reside in the Netherlands.

So you purchased some btc in 2013 at 800 eur.

lets say it was five coins.

they are worth 5x16= 80000 eur.

so put 4 in a trezor wallet.

and kyc the other coin for 16000 eur.

it is the easiest way.

There is just about no way to do it non KYC, and I will go so far as to say as the time and effort you will put into trying to, and what tend to be worse exchange rates is probably not worth it.

However, and since I don't know where you live, as a general piece of advice if you don't mind some non direct KYC, there is always the form a business option.
Business takes in the BTC converts to fiat and then pays you a salary. Probably a bunch more of tax implications doing that but at that point all you are is an employee.

Everything else non KYC is going to be a lot more time consuming and convoluted and may cost you even more.

Side thought, is there a version of consfer.com where you live? Might be worth a search.

-Dave

Looking to cash as little as possible but that would be anywhere up to 30 or 40 within the next year.
I reside in a country where there is a high chance that no capital gains taxes are charged, however I'm not trying to evade taxes or anything of the sort.
I don't even mind paying the taxes if need be, but of course will fight like a honeybadger to not be treated unfairly and I'm very interested in optimization strategies, so will dig in.

I think most useful information for me at this point would be to know how people,
let's say libertarian-minded folk have dealt with this issue in different jurisdictions.

P2P options are always there I understand, but in my case I really need to figure out an on-ramp to get the funds 'online'.
Optimization options are interesting so far as they are legal, but I don't want to even be seen to try to set up elaborate structures just to cash in
something that I legally own. But a company set-up strategy that benefits the actual company in some significant way is an interesting thought,
so thanks for the hint, I'll look into it and will read through your thread.

At the same time I don't want to step into some legal anti-personnel mine just for being ignorant, so I gotta study about the risk-profile in the legal sense,
because the systems that govern are very unforgiving as I'm sure many of us have experienced first hand. There's very little sympathy out there.
So it's all about making a well-reasoned calculated move.

Thanks for quick replies and wishes, I'll dig around more and check out the ideas mentioned,
I'll follow up when I know better to spread the word.
I'm sure everyone in the same situation understands the spirit.

We are in the early stages, keep up the spirit!
Anybody reading this with ideas, come forth and show us the way, stir the pot!

This has been discussed many times in this section and I myself opened a thread about it. The answer will depend on how much we are talking about, because it is not the same €10k than €1M.

If we are talking about €1M is better to look for a tax advisor, there are ways to legalize it without paying practically nothing by creating a company in a third country that gives you a loan and things like that. I say it by hearsay but there are solutions for large capitals.

For more moderate amounts, with P2P, Bitcoin ATMs or things like that you have the problem solved, besides depositing moderate amounts of cash in your bank will not raise alarms, but I think yours is the first case, because €1k bought 10 years ago must have become a large capital, so spend the money in a specialized tax advisor who will have much better tax avoidance strategies than what we can tell you here.

An interesting conundrum and personally also I have a similar situation - in the future at least.
It may well be worth looking at which exchanges are based in your particular country and see what the particular regulations are.
Don’t rule out P2P- if you can get cash in hand, perhaps this help out with many of the other every day expenses( obviously be careful).
Anyway good luck

Hi,

Question about cashing in BTC in EU. (asking fresh advice after scouring through the forums)

I've been hodling a handful of BTC for almost 10 years, with a few shitcoin excursions in the early years.

Since then, just hodled quite conservatively.

Here's the complex part:

I bought almost all of them with cash from an ATM at < 1000e.

I have no receipts, no proof of purchase and I have mostly self-custodied them on a multiple hardware wallets since.

Funds have moved wallets multiple times and I don't have all the transactions in between then and now. I do have some records from old exchanges but not a complete history.


That said, I think I might be able to control my 'first' hardware wallet. As a privacy proponent I also mixed some the coins a few years ago.

So now I'm in a situation where I need to grudginly cash-in some of it to stay warm in the house.
I need to get the funds in a bank account so I can pay bills, so I am not looking for p2p cash deals.

My understanding is that a traditional bank will frown at this to say the least.

What are my options? Does anyone have any experience on how to go about this in a legitimate way?

If bank, what kind of proof do they need in this case?
How to go about 'proving ownership' or what is the procedure both with the bank and the tax folks?

Any legal, professional advice, resources, links or other information would be helpful. Based in EU.

Also if anyone knows any technical tools that could help me make sense of my transaction history in a secure way, would be great.

Thanks all,