Topic: Ola... any crypto-aware accountants who can assist? (Read 1657 times)

https://www.legalico.io/portugal/

Mete a massa ao bolso, pk quando isso desvalorizar eles não te devolvem nenhum!

Any new news about the tax in portugal are they finally free?

I was talking about the situation where you have no open activity. I also need to clarify this situation for myself, since this is my last doubt for now. i'll pst if i get a decent update.

EDIT: I asked a lawyer who told me that with this document you are now safe if the finance department ever asks why did you receive money that you can prove was from trading crypto, i.e. you are not charged taxes unless you open activity, since there is no activity where this would fit right now that they could point and say you have been doing. If you open activity it will be into some "Others" category

Hi! I've been reading about taxes and cryptocurrencies and things are still very blurry in my head. From my interpretation, and also from the last article published by the Portuguese media, there's just no legal basis for taxation over cryptocurrencies (yet, since I believe that will change probably this year).

But your last sentence doesn't make sense to me. If you are a dependent worker (working for a company with your regular salary, etc), don't have any open independent activity, I don't see how the IRS could simply jump to the conclusion that your profits should be taxed as an independent worker based on the volume of those profits.

Care to elaborate on that? I'm trying to gather as much information as I can on this subject.

Thanks!

jp

A notícia do DN foi feita com base numa informação vinculativa da AT.

Since this topic started for foreigners i'll continue in english:
The latest information on the subject (a document from the finance department that soon will become public knowledge) tells me I was wrong, as a singular person you don't have to report your earnings from crypto trading in sections E or G of the IRS.
HOWEVER, if you do withdraw large profits from exchanges, the finance department will be notified by the bank and you may be charged for taxes as an independent worker. If you intend to do this anyway, you might aswell just start your activity so that you can declare your expenses and reduce your tax bill. Or don't withdraw to portugal at all.

Tal como alguém disse noutro tópico, enquanto não vir isto devidamente escrito no site das finanças e na legislação, é preciso ter cuidado.

Look at these news:
https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/interior/financas-lucros-com-bitcoin-nao-pagam-imposto-9007290.html (Portuguese)
https://bitcoin.fr/portugal-vers-une-fiscalite-favorable-au-bitcoin/ (French)

Boa!
Se a deco se mexeu e se está devidamente escrito, optimo.
Mas lá está, cada repartição faz como lhe apetece... Por isso, cautela na mesma!

Segundo a Deco Proteste Investe:

"E impostos, é preciso pagar?

Foi o que perguntámos ao ministério das Finanças. Resposta clara. Se as transações forem feitas no âmbito da atividade profissional ou empresarial, sim, é preciso declarar esses rendimentos e pagar o respetivo imposto, caso em que o contribuinte será tributado na categoria B. De resto, “a venda de bitcoins não é tributável em IRS face ao ordenamento fiscal português, designadamente no âmbito da categoria E (capitais) ou G (mais-valias)”, esclareceu a tutela, numa nota enviada à PROTESTE INVESTE."

https://www.deco.proteste.pt/investe/bitcoin-o-que-e-e-como-funciona-s5148344.htm


Como este artigo é de Jul17, telefonei ontem para confirmar, e sim, mantem-se tudo na mesma.

Deu para perceber que cada Repartição de Finanças tem o seu entendimento, portanto eles dirigiram-se ao Ministério das Finanças directamente.
Quanto aos bancos, eles aconselham a dizer abertamente a proveniencia dos eventuais depósitos. Estão dispostos a arriscar?


PS: Too lazy to translate. Plus, the guy has likely sort things out by now.

Section G, Rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro, refers to work done abroad, not to crypto trading!

Does it refer specifically to work?

My view on this.

The auferings abroad are "declared" in the J paper from the IRS.

It has a part for work -A, Pensions H, Independent work , B, Capitals, E and "incrementos patrimoniais" G.

Under G - incrementos patrimoniais de IRS code states:

Artigo 9.º
Rendimentos da categoria G


1 - Constituem incrementos patrimoniais, desde que não considerados rendimentos de outras categorias:

a) As mais-valias, tal como definidas no artigo seguinte;

b) As indemnizações que visem a reparação de danos não patrimoniais, exceptuadas as fixadas por decisão judicial ou arbitral ou resultantes de acordo homologado judicialmente, de danos emergentes não comprovados e de lucros cessantes, considerando-se neste último caso como tais apenas as que se destinem a ressarcir os benefícios líquidos deixados de obter em consequência da lesão; (Redacção da Lei n.º 67-A/2007, de 31/12)


c) Importâncias auferidas em virtude da assunção de obrigações de não concorrência, independentemente da respectiva fonte ou título;

d) Acréscimos patrimoniais não justificados, determinados nos termos dos artigos 87.º, 88.º ou 89.º-A da Lei Geral Tributária.


2 - (Revogado pela  Lei n.º 3-B/2010-28/04)

3 - São igualmente considerados incrementos patrimoniais aqueles a que se refere o n.º 5 do artigo 89.º-A da lei geral tributária. (Redacção dada pela Lei n.º 55-B/2004, de 30 de Dezembro )

4 - Os incrementos patrimoniais referidos nas alíneas b) e c) do n.º 1 do presente artigo constituem rendimento do ano em que são pagos ou colocados à disposição.(Aditado pela Lei 60-A/2005 de 30 de Dezembro)

Here I want to refer to line a) mais valias. and line d) rendimentos não justificados.

So i tend to agree with whom stated above that at least we would have na unpleasent jorney in court as a finantial gain from cryptotrading is a "mais-valia" and could fall in the bag d) unjustified earnings.
Of course for this there would have to be na investigation and the eagerness from the IRS to prossecute.

So what i would say is 2take care of your capital" and don´t trust the IRS:)

That's right. Trimegistus is right in many aspects.
But the "fight the power" attitude doesn't help here. "The power" does whatever they want unfortunately, as I've seen in many real life examples around me (some of which I've shared above).
People easily get in trouble with the Tax Services because of misinformation, some of it provided by the people behind the counter.
And when you consult them, would you please be kind to share their enlightenment on the subject?
I guess everybody would benefit from that knowledge, even to "fight the power" later
But mind you, lawyers cost money. I'd ask the one I know but I'd feel bad asking her to study and search the law, having trouble with the subject and not paying her.
And please, everybody take note on this:
- Mining is not taxed (yet...)
- But also not "licensed"...
- The problem isn't mining or trading taxation.
- The problem is the extra money taxation - and this is legislated: even succession or donations are unfortunately taxed.
- I don't defend rushing to the Tax Services saying "hey! I made 10k on mining, I want to pay you guys!"
- I defend we have to be prepared with the right knowledge if they ever ask.

No harm done. Let's move on, shall we?

I didn't mean to disrespect, nor i was accusing you of anything. And it certainly wasn't my intention to frigthen anyone, but to be cautious when it comes to these matters.
I understand there is no regulation, and i agree mostly in what you say, but i do think that if you make a big profit and they don't know where it comes from they will be alarmed.
Better to consult a lawyer and/or a fiscal operative to know more, it's what i intend to do.

Pra mim acabou a conversa, os factos são claros e evidentes e as opiniões antagónicas.

Nada mais há a dizer...

No, nothing at all. The example is only related to your phrase.
And I don't agree on closing the thread, this is a subject that should be enlightened once for all!!

Your example has nothing to do with the past discussion.

And let's close the subject, and this thread.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

 

Don't say that. You might someday have due taxes without even knowing it.
The case I'm talking about the person had no responsibility in it. He simply had a business partner who he trusted his heart. His partner was his father.
The business started to rumble and fail without his knowledge and his partner (the father) hided this from him.
One day, the debt knocked this person's door and his salary, bank accounts, house and car got pawned.
His only fault? He trusted in someone he shouldn't and believe me, his trying hard to get rid of the debt.
So, please don't judge every one who's in debt. There are lot of cases where people didn't know and the Tax Services made everything to hide it from them so they could collect more later.
Remember this? https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/interior/fisco-esta-a-reclamar--imi-de-2013-a-quem-perdeu-a-isencao-8852415.html

And no, "trading and mining" are not subjected to taxes. The money (in euros) you earn from it might be.

I gave the correct information; there is no legislation on the matter.

In order for the tax service to to come after you, they have to justify their actions with the law! That's what they do, and I totally support all their actions. They cannot, and will not charge you with anything only based of speculation, this is a democratic country with a rule of law system.

A courthouse enforces the law! There is no law for crypto. Period!

We would have a much better country if everybody would pay their due taxes. Like I pay mine!

But this is a brave new world, we are not stealing anything, we are not evading the law, we are not committing any crime; we are just dealing with something that is still a novelty.

All I say is, let's take advantage of the absence of law while we can. As soon as they regulate it, the fun might be over.

In many other countries, this is already regulated. Our government announced last week the creation of a working group to debate these issues.

Let's wait and see. But for now, crypto mining and trading is not subject to any taxes!

I get your point and respect it but my living experience and looking how the Tax Services work... We have to be extra careful.
Mind that even with bonds or stock actions, they don't tax the stock or the bond. They tax the extra money you make.
Perhaps, if the drug sellers took part of the profit to pay taxes, nobody would ask them where did the money came from!!!
And believe me... fighting the Tax Services in court is a nightmare...
And although you are correct in some assumptions, the problem is that they are still assumptions: when they pick you up, they already have found the loophole in the law to nail your ass.
One example is a debt pawning your salary via notification: imagine it becomes due since they were unable to collect or because you have paid that.
In a normal world, your boss would receive another notification stating the pawn wouldn't be necessary anymore.
In Portugal... they will not send the notification since you have another one of smaller value.
They will pay in full the one expired, the Taxes will deduce the smaller one and... someday after you make pressure on an unnumbered couple of people, you will receive the exceeding but without any interests on.
The point is, there is no legislation indeed but that wouldn't stop them of making your life a nightmare. You'd spend all your profits in court.
There's no need to take unnecessary chances so, the greatest problem is indeed finding a lawyer who's able to advise to some degree of correctness.
I know a great lawyer and I know a fiscalist but I don't know how would any of them be able to provide the most correct answer. And both know to some degree what mining and cryptocurrency are.
And although this is a subject already debated (reaching no conclusion at all in the end) in other topics, this one is important to, at least, gather and share the correct information.

1 - Point taken. I should've explained myself better.

4 - Exactly. They are always eager to take taxes, even when they don't have a clue where they are coming from!

7 - When that time comes, I'll abide to the law as I always have and always will. But for now, there is nothing they can do.

Well... selling drugs isn't also regulated and lot of people obtain profits from it. Never the less, although this is one activity deemed illegal, people DO HAVE to explain from where the money came from precisely to prove they didn't obtained it from illicit activities nor from tax evasion.



Digital mining no, not yet. It isn't yet subject to taxation as actual mining. Give them some months and I bet you'll need a license to mine!! Remind you of the leaches sitting in the government (Béééhhhh)!!


It's not the mining or the digital asset they want to tax. They want to tax the money you made from it. Although they don't do it yet, they might. Specially if some bank, exchange or any other third party tips them on the cash you made.

1 - I don't have to explain my profits when they are obtained via a non-regulated mechanism.

2 - I'm not doing anything illegal!

3 - I'm a miner and a staker! These activities don't fall under any local legislation. I mine at my own expenses, purchasing  very expensive equipment, paying huge electrical bills. Then I sell my coins. I don't have to pay taxes on this!

4 - It's up to them to prove that I'm evading taxes. And I dare them to do that! Where is it written that selling ETH obtained via mining is subject to any taxes?

5 - Similar principles apply to crypto trading because all other trading is very well regulated, bonds, stocks, derivatives, etc, etc.

6 - Where does crypto fit in? Is it a currency? A bond? A stock? A commodity? Where is it defined?

7 - Crypto currencies are not regulated, hence one cannot be accused of breaking the law by tax evasion. I pay all my taxes!

I'm an honest citizen and you should be more careful before accusing people you don't know. Particularly when you don't even know waht you are talking about!

Stop spreading false information! Stop frightening people with your ignorance! And stop judging others!

I'm sorry, but where exactly did you see that?
I'm thinking of getting into crypto trading, but i also want to be sure i'm doing the "proper taxes".



How do you explain your profits to the fiscal authorities then (especially if they are big)? They might think you stole, or got them througth other illegal activities.
I think you are making a mistake, you should be careful and honest when it comes to taxes.

I assumed the taxation would be the same for crypto as if you're trading stocks in Portugal, cryptos would probably be considered assets that you trade, so any profits made would have the same taxation as any profits you make while trading stocks.

PS: i don't know alot about accounting or the law in this area nor have i traded cryptos before (yet), it just seems to  make sense to me that they would be subjected to the same taxation as stock trading.
I think that there is not any law regulating cryptos or that there are any official government instructions relating to crypto taxation, better to consult a lawyer or an accountant.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Portuguese law doesn't have a single word about crypto currencies, exchanges, mining, trading, nothing!

Section G, Rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro, refers to work done abroad, not to crypto trading!

The law is completely absent when it comes to anything crypto related.

Buying and selling BTC is not regulated in Portuguese law, therefore we don't have to pay anything.

If this is a crime, show me the law I'm breaking will you? Please?

Hi,

I'm also a foreigner asking myself this kind of questions.
If this is considered as revenue obtained abroad, would it be exempted in case of someone benefiting from the non-habitual resident program (NHR)?

Do you know a good lawyer in Portugal (preferably Lisbon) who would be able to assist for those issues?

In my interpretation of the law, as crypto is not officially considered money what will be taxed is the surplus you have in Fiat. As Riclas said what would be taxed is the diference between the fiat you used to aquire the crypto and the fiat you got from selling considering it was a profit.
the crypto-crypto trades wont be considered IMO and interpretation of the law.

Right. The next question is probably more important.... do I need to declare crypto-crypto trades? Or just fiat-crypto and crypto-fiat trades?

Not sure if you know that level of detail.

Thanks

The exchanges themselves are not important. the important part is what you got into your bank account in Euros versus what you got out of it. The surplus is the reportable part.

Thanks, riclas,

Could you elaborate on 'All the trades were done abroad', please?

I was in Portugal, at the time of the trades, if that is what you mean. But the fiat/crypto exchanges were not in Euros. If I convert using daily rates, is that acceptable?

Hi Jim,
you are supposed to declare whatever earnings in euros you got from crypto trades in annex g section 13001, or as "rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro" if all the trades were done abroad. Either way the tax is the same.

Ola, boa tarde,

Are there any English-speaking accountants who know how to declare some crypto exchanges for tax purposes? I would like some help with my self-assessment tax-return which is due for filing soon, in Portugal.

Obrigado,
Jim