On Bitcoin Cash supporters' belief that Bitcoin Cash is more "P2P" than Bitcoin

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Quote from: franky1 on November 09, 2018, 02:54:08 AM

Quote from: LeGaulois on November 06, 2018, 03:24:49 PM

Bitcoin isn't becoming the 'myspace' of crypto, it's becoming the Debian of the Linux sys. I don't say Bitcoin is perfect, it has its positives and negatives but the good news is it can be improved with the time and Bitcoin isn't the only crypto not perfect. Is there any?

debian of linux? nah
more like the microsoft

its about barriers of entry. if it costs mor than an hours labour just to transact people stop using it. imagine that like paying a monthly fee to use the microsoft cloud/buy microsoft office on a subscription/per use policy

What? Can you explain to a newbie like me how that is happening to Bitcoin?

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they were promised/wanted the linux experience of open coded free software that had little or no cost to transact so that everyone could get involved.. but now they experience something different

Then do you believe that Bitcoin should be something like Ethereum?

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and no, thats not caused by debate or popular faces. thats caused by coders who code deciding without debate to remove fee priority rules and not replace them with better formulae. to not increase the space to allow more legacy transactions but to "conservatively" delay onchain growth but then be very "liberal" with throwing in lots of OFF CHAIN compatibility add-ons that still dont help onchain(real bitcoin utility).. again its code that caused it and bitcoin is not some AI that codes itself. devs code it..
yep devs. not social drama PR guys. DEVS code.. not miners collating transactions.. DEVS code
so no point pointing fingers away from devs. its the devs that cause issues that bitcoin has

You hate the Core developers, but you have not given your suggestions on what they should do.

Do you believe that Bitcoin should follow Bitcoin Cash in increasing the size of the blocks, and re-enable the disabled OPcodes, or make new ones?

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Quote from: LeGaulois on November 06, 2018, 03:24:49 PM

Bitcoin isn't becoming the 'myspace' of crypto, it's becoming the Debian of the Linux sys. I don't say Bitcoin is perfect, it has its positives and negatives but the good news is it can be improved with the time and Bitcoin isn't the only crypto not perfect. Is there any?

debian of linux? nah
more like the microsoft

its about barriers of entry. if it costs mor than an hours labour just to transact people stop using it. imagine that like paying a monthly fee to use the microsoft cloud/buy microsoft office on a subscription/per use policy

they were promised/wanted the linux experience of open coded free software that had little or no cost to transact so that everyone could get involved.. but now they experience something different

and no, thats not caused by debate or popular faces. thats caused by coders who code deciding without debate to remove fee priority rules and not replace them with better formulae. to not increase the space to allow more legacy transactions but to "conservatively" delay onchain growth but then be very "liberal" with throwing in lots of OFF CHAIN compatibility add-ons that still dont help onchain(real bitcoin utility).. again its code that caused it and bitcoin is not some AI that codes itself. devs code it..
yep devs. not social drama PR guys. DEVS code.. not miners collating transactions.. DEVS code
so no point pointing fingers away from devs. its the devs that cause issues that bitcoin has

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There is no need to debate BCASH and it's value in crypto, the value is clearly still in bitcoin.

IF BCASH offers something new and innovative, the value will show in the market at some point.

BCASH seems to require marketing, bitcoin sells itself.

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that's the thing about advertisement, if you watch TV and the ads there you can see that an advertisement never has to be accurate or even correct! an advertisement only has to be interesting enough to get people excited to buy the product so that your company can make profit.

in case of bitcoin-cash they have always played this trick by calling it "real bitcoin", "satoshi's vision", "more p2p", "solved scaling problem",... and a lot more. and they have always done it to advertise and pump their token to make profit.

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I still have the money and support Bitcoin Cash in transactions, with low transaction costs and fast processing speed. But bitcoin is still my priority, do you ever think about why Bitcoin Cash is low on gas?

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Quote from: franky1 on November 05, 2018, 04:27:41 AM

firstly to address the elephant in the room. onchain/ofchain
CORE want offchain..
but LN is not a bitcoin protocol nor is it a bitcoin network, nor is it a blockchain network.
LN is a separate network that any chainhash can link into it as long as that coin is LN compatible
LN was not made to be bitcoin compatible and sole feature of.. bitcoin was made to be LN compatible. so were other coins

now thats said
standing back and looking at the big picture it seems team core want to limit bitcoin and promote the separate network LN

Going back to this. The Core developers want a layered architecture to scale Bitcoin and make it ready for mass adoption without inducing the network to scale down because of block size increases. But all your Bitcoins can always be sent on-chain if that's what you want.

If you know what the Lightning Network really is, is it lives up to "Satoshi's vision" of a peer to peer electronic cash system. Lightning payments have to be sent from peer to peer from the sender to the recepient, or peer to peer to peer to peer. Cool

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On October 14, a new bitcoin cash exchange was launched called Localbitcoincash.org, a platform that allows people to manipulate decentralized money in a peer-to-peer way.

Lol, this is another advertisement in our forum ? I guess marketing time is already over ?

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Quote from: franky1 on November 06, 2018, 03:24:40 AM

i feel their debate is that bch is a chain originating from satoshis genesis.. which it is (unlike other coins that come to life at block 0)

But they did a contentious hard fork, and caused a chain split away from the main network, and made an altcoin.

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i feel their debate is that bch is a chain that wants to scale the blockchain. not push people into non blockchain networks.

That would be ideal if it doesn't have any trade-offs, slowly killing decentralization itself. The debate is technical but the leading supporters of big blocks for on-chain scaling turned it into a political debate.

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to me though. drama aside what matters for a coins longevity and popularity is all about where you can spend the funds in the most amount of merchants and services

seeing coinbase, bitpay and many exchanges adopt litecoin bch eth... seeing the dip in transactions btc is losing the sole player status of popularity.
though its not swung over to another coin being more popular. many people are seeing using litecoin and other altcoins as being faster and cheaper than btc.
which needs sorting. btc cant just rely on "store of value coz store of value". nor can it rely on LN, which other coins will equally use.

Can you present the data that merchant adoption in Bitcoin dipped and altcoin merchant adoption increased?

Plus Coinbase listed most of those altcoins for trading-fee profit, not because merchant adoption was increasing.

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and yes even litecoins and other coins will also use LN. so the btc devs have really stepped on their own foot by stepping back from evolving the btc network....
(yea i know you want to throw the buzzword of the year "conservative", im expecting that standard script word to replace deliberate delay)

Do you then agree that Bitcoin Cash's increasing the block size is the correct path? If not, what would be the correct path?

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Quote from: franky1 on November 06, 2018, 11:22:05 AM

Quote from: LeGaulois on November 06, 2018, 05:54:17 AM

Quote from: franky1 on November 06, 2018, 03:24:40 AM

seeing coinbase, bitpay and many exchanges adopt litecoin bch eth...

These companies do not have much choice. It's either it adapts to the market or ends up like dinosaurs. They are there for profits, and they can't develop products just for Bitcoin. As long there are profits to be made they could add any coin (basically). Why Coinbase added other coins after Bitcoin? To keep the exponential income and sign ups growing

exponential income?
those merchant service gateways seen drastic drop in merchant use of BTC. so yea i agree that they had to adapt. but dont you see the problem in that.

so many people spout out btc is tops. yet i have travelled to many countries and spoke to merchants and service gateways and many are not seeing the 2009-2013 ethos, promises and features they had/wanted

"too many 'too the moon' make me fiat rich promoters"
"not enough btc security carers"
"ramping up the price 100x and then PR campaigning 75% discount if... is still 25x more expected than promised"

many have gone on to use other coins. and see many other coins far cheaper to use that will also allow them an on-off ramp into LN without ever needing to touch btc. too many people around the world are saying bitcoin is becoming the 'myspace' of crypto.

yet theres still a group of people over promising that bitcoin is facebook and will offer a fast snapchat service. but doing so more so to kiss the developers asses. rather than be honest about the day to day issues service/network users actually experience outside the developer friends groupchat

I agree with the "too many 'to the moon', etc" It was just for fun when it started but then became a standard when a coin gets +2% in the last 24h.

Bitcoin is divisible and you are talking about the folks here for profits, People will always go to get a cheaper coin, it creates a cycle where people always go to the cheaper. People do the same with their bank account, they go to the low-cost bank.
What about now for the real users, sellers/merchants? I don't really care about the BTC value, I care more about its use and adoption. You say you traveled and merchants didn't get the ethos, promises, and the features they wanted. Are you going again with the fees argument? or Blockstream? what features and promise you're referring to?

Bitcoin isn't becoming the 'myspace' of crypto, it's becoming the Debian of the Linux sys. I don't say Bitcoin is perfect, it has its positives and negatives but the good news is it can be improved with the time and Bitcoin isn't the only crypto not perfect. Is there any?

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Quote from: LeGaulois on November 06, 2018, 05:54:17 AM

Quote from: franky1 on November 06, 2018, 03:24:40 AM

seeing coinbase, bitpay and many exchanges adopt litecoin bch eth...

These companies do not have much choice. It's either it adapts to the market or ends up like dinosaurs. They are there for profits, and they can't develop products just for Bitcoin. As long there are profits to be made they could add any coin (basically). Why Coinbase added other coins after Bitcoin? To keep the exponential income and sign ups growing

exponential income?
those merchant service gateways seen drastic drop in merchant use of BTC. so yea i agree that they had to adapt. but dont you see the problem in that.

so many people spout out btc is tops. yet i have travelled to many countries and spoke to merchants and service gateways and many are not seeing the 2009-2013 ethos, promises and features they had/wanted

"too many 'too the moon' make me fiat rich promoters"
"not enough btc security carers"
"ramping up the price 100x and then PR campaigning 75% discount if... is still 25x more expected than promised"

many have gone on to use other coins. and see many other coins far cheaper to use that will also allow them an on-off ramp into LN without ever needing to touch btc. too many people around the world are saying bitcoin is becoming the 'myspace' of crypto.

yet theres still a group of people over promising that bitcoin is facebook and will offer a fast snapchat service. but doing so more so to kiss the developers asses. rather than be honest about the day to day issues service/network users actually experience outside the developer friends groupchat

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 03, 2018, 03:10:07 AM

I am asking nicely.

What is the debate that Bitcoin Cash supporters have that makes it technically correct when they say that "Bitcoin Cash is the real Bitcoin" because it is more "peer to peer and closer to electronic cash"?

I believe the community should internalize this topic more, especially the newbies.

My personal opinion for this is bitcoin . Eventhough the price of bitcoin cash is more than the Stable cryptocurrency Ethereum,the Ethereum on the second place .So by the price of bitcoin cash ,we can't predict the future of it.Now the status of bitcoin cash is good. But it will not over take the bitcoin by any manner.Bitcoin is the top of cryptocurrency market.

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 03, 2018, 03:10:07 AM

I am asking nicely.

What is the debate that Bitcoin Cash supporters have that makes it technically correct when they say that "Bitcoin Cash is the real Bitcoin" because it is more "peer to peer and closer to electronic cash"?

I believe the community should internalize this topic more, especially the newbies.

Bitcoincash does not have a more advanced platform than Bitcoin because it split and developed based on Bitcoin. Bitcoincash is widely used and traded because Trader receives it in a freeway from hard fork during the Bitcoin hold during this event. All traders want their board to have a high price so always push the price to help BCH reach a high rate.

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Quote from: franky1 on November 06, 2018, 03:24:40 AM

seeing coinbase, bitpay and many exchanges adopt litecoin bch eth...

These companies do not have much choice. It's either it adapts to the market or ends up like dinosaurs. They are there for profits, and they can't develop products just for Bitcoin. As long there are profits to be made they could add any coin (basically). Why Coinbase added other coins after Bitcoin? To keep the exponential income and sign ups growing

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i feel their debate is that bch is a chain originating from satoshis genesis.. which it is (unlike other coins that come to life at block 0)
i feel their debate is that bch is a chain that wants to scale the blockchain. not push people into non blockchain networks.

to me though. drama aside what matters for a coins longevity and popularity is all about where you can spend the funds in the most amount of merchants and services

seeing coinbase, bitpay and many exchanges adopt litecoin bch eth... seeing the dip in transactions btc is losing the sole player status of popularity.
though its not swung over to another coin being more popular. many people are seeing using litecoin and other altcoins as being faster and cheaper than btc.
which needs sorting. btc cant just rely on "store of value coz store of value". nor can it rely on LN, which other coins will equally use.

and yes even litecoins and other coins will also use LN. so the btc devs have really stepped on their own foot by stepping back from evolving the btc network....
(yea i know you want to throw the buzzword of the year "conservative", im expecting that standard script word to replace deliberate delay)

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Quote from: BitcoinHodler on November 05, 2018, 02:22:28 AM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on November 05, 2018, 02:06:22 AM

Maybe to begin, we should ask "is Bitcoin technically peer to peer when sending a payment?".

peer to peer means when you want to send something to someone else you don't need a third party in the middle to send. like a server to connect to, a payment processor to go through,... there are only peers that are "equal" on this network and when you send a transaction you send it to these peers. and as long as there is no restrictions on who can become a "peer" on this network it will remain that way.

The Bitcoin network and the Bitcoin Cash network function the same. The broadcast network is peer to peer, but the on-chain payments are not. The payments are "sent" to the miners, and they record it in the blockchain. All keys are updated after each block on which key can spend what outputs.

What debate are Bitcoin Cash supporters making when they argue that it's the "real Bitcoin", peer to peer, digital cash?

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Quote from: LeGaulois on November 05, 2018, 03:09:39 PM

@Franky1

You are showing the number of transactions per block to say we have less utility but why not consider the number of confirmed transactions per day instead https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions?timespan=all
It gives a better overview and another scenario, I don't see less transactions with (excluding 2017)

do you see the 200,000-250,000 range turn down to the 150,000-200,000 range PER DAY (2016-2018)
yea if you exclude the price drama period of november 2017 january 2018(the spike) you prove my point
august 2017 dropped down

then if you look at other coins. litecoin rose by about 20k transactions (5k to 25k)if you look at the same periods and exclude the same couple month spike data of price drama

as did a few other coins rise.

yep.. btc took a dip and people used other coins instead.

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Quote from: dothebeats on November 05, 2018, 12:16:02 PM

Inclining more to 'Satoshi's vision' doesn't make a coin the "true" bitcoin, especially if the coin is a fork of the original coin that was created since this whole system started (that's just all my opinion).

That's why I like Bitcoin so much, it's not representing one group; it's representing a whole economy full of all sorts of participants, and that economy has clearly chosen for Bitcoin, and not a cheap ass knockoff of which most its coins aren't generated through intensive POW, but donated to wealthy assholes through an airdrop.

In the end, the miners are the real winners here, because they have a secondary SHA256 chain to mine on, which makes their previously worthless deemed hardware worth something again.

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@Franky1

You are showing the number of transactions per block to say we have less utility but why not consider the number of confirmed transactions per day instead https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions?timespan=all
It gives a better overview and another scenario, I don't see less transactions with (excluding 2017)

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as for other posters who over inflate and over promote
BTC is not full
BTC is not empty
BTC is not full or empty due to sgwit technology adding capacity or any other false PR of spinning "segwit is great"
https://www.blockchain.com/charts/avg-block-size

infact btc is less full due to LESS transactions (less utility=lss people using the network)
https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions-per-block

...
bch is not empty
bch is not full
those who screamed gigablocks by midnight coz gigabytes were wrong

ever since 2009-2013 bitcoin was statistically able to do 2100tx a block (3.5tx/s) (hindsight of LevelDB bug)
but if at 1mb allowed 7tx/s which even satoshi mentioned 7tx/s back in 2009-10

yet we see less than 2000 as the average... and dont try spinning it into "segwit is great" as less people using a network is bad.

all that can be said is the troops of people shouting "if you dont like it F**K off... got their wish. people have moved away from using bitcoin. the number of transactions went down. fee's though are higher than they were in 2015(when all the promises of innovation and scaling and upgrade drama started due to fees)

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Each side always has their own biased opinions regarding the matter: which coin fulfills Satoshi's vision for an electronic P2P cash, which coin stuck to the original intended use-case of bitcoin etc.. it just goes on. Both of them technically fulfills being a currency and a store of value IMO, and the end-user still decides which coin they would like to use. Inclining more to 'Satoshi's vision' doesn't make a coin the "true" bitcoin, especially if the coin is a fork of the original coin that was created since this whole system started (that's just all my opinion).

Quote from: talkbitcoin on November 03, 2018, 04:54:10 AM

1. when you speak of fees you shouldn't only consider the fees that are paid. but instead you should talk about how much of block space is used compared to the fees. with bitcoin the blocks are full, even if you increase the block size to 32 MB the blocks will be full even if it means miners spamming it. but with BCH the blocks are empty even if they were 0.5 MB they would still be empty. you can't charge a high fee while blocks are empty and you can even call 1 s/b a huge fee!

Ahh no, there are cases in which blocks only contain a single transaction (coinbase transaction), see this block for instance. Miners can mine empty blocks if they so do wish, so the assertion that bitcoin blocks are always full doesn't ring true.

Topic: On Bitcoin Cash supporters' belief that Bitcoin Cash is more "P2P" than Bitcoin (Read 17670 times)