Openning LN channel - c-lightning | Bitcointalksearch.org

Rath_

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Quote from: AdolfinWolf on January 08, 2021, 03:18:41 PM

I'm curious as well as to what the biggest contributing factors are when the wallet is choosing a route. I assume channel capacity and availability are the biggest ones, fees maybe?! (Assuming all routes have an equal amount of hops.)

Each implementation chooses a path differently as it is not the part of the specifications. If the number of hops is equal, wallets will choose a route based on the fees and the capability to forward a payment. Some wallets might fail the payment if the fee exceeds a certain percentage of the amount sent.

Quote from: AdolfinWolf on January 08, 2021, 03:18:41 PM

Huh. Do nodes have any sort of preference when trying to route payments? I'm assuming that it is preferable to have it as close to 50/50 for each channel for routing purposes & then the one with biggest capacity/lowest fees wins? (Since each HTLC is settled/created, can't settle substantial payments in a channel with 97% outbound liquidity?!)

The payer's wallet does not care how balanced the channels of an intermediary node are. Keep in mind that every channel can have its own fee policy. I would say that the channel with the lowest fee would be chosen. If the payment is too big then as long as the wallet supports multi-part payments, it will be split into smaller pieces which will be sent through different channels with various fee policies. By the way, I did some fee calculations in which you might be interested. It turns out that splitting a payment might be more cost-effective than sending it through a large channel.

Quote from: AdolfinWolf on January 08, 2021, 03:18:41 PM

Now that i think about it, kinda curious how exactly fees work as well. I mean you specify an x amount of fees, every node sets a base fee + "liq used fee", and then... does the client automatically choose the route with lowest fees or does it just try to bruteforce itself through to a settlement? < (I believe LND does this, not sure about other clients)

I need to do a little bit more research on how specific implementations handle path finding. I will quote and answer your post in the FAQ or a separate thread once I have done enough research. What do you mean by "bruteforcing"? Every node keeps a map of the network which I believe is used for the route calculations.

AdolfinWolf

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Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 08, 2021, 02:17:49 PM

That a completely new term to me. Reverse submarine swap!
Anywhere I can read about it?

A submarine swap is on-chain -> off-chain, so a reverse submarine swap is.. well.. the reverse. (so from off-chain (lightning) to on-chain (mainnet).

There's some more information and technical details here -> https://wiki.ion.radar.tech/tech/research/submarine-swap

Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 08, 2021, 02:17:49 PM

And can you please explain a little further why not pay for incoming liquidity will be bad for routing? I mean, the routing search routines won't care (I assume) about who pays for liquidity and who pays not!

Oh yeah, I don't think that it matters how you got the liquidity.

I'm curious as well as to what the biggest contributing factors are when the wallet is choosing a route. I assume channel capacity and availability are the biggest ones, fees maybe?! (Assuming all routes have an equal amount of hops.)

Quote from: Rath_ on January 08, 2021, 11:28:46 AM

Correct. In fact, you don't even have to do a reverse submarine swap to gain incoming liquidity. You can simply spend some coins over the Lightning Network and eventually you will be able to receive coins through the same channel. You need to spend the channel's reserve, which takes 1%-3% of the channel's capacity, before you will be able to receive anything.

Huh. Do nodes have any sort of preference when trying to route payments? I'm assuming that it is preferable to have it as close to 50/50 for each channel for routing purposes & then the one with biggest capacity/lowest fees wins? (Since each HTLC is settled/created, can't settle substantial payments in a channel with 97% outbound liquidity?!)

Now that i think about it, kinda curious how exactly fees work as well. I mean you specify an x amount of fees, every node sets a base fee + "liq used fee", and then... does the client automatically choose the route with lowest fees or does it just try to bruteforce itself through to a settlement? < (I believe LND does this, not sure about other clients)

darkv0rt3x

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I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

That a completely new term to me. Reverse submarine swap!
Anywhere I can read about it?

And can you please explain a little further why not pay for incoming liquidity will be bad for routing? I mean, the routing search routines won't care (I assume) about who pays for liquidity and who pays not!

Rath_

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Activity: 1876

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Quote from: AdolfinWolf on January 08, 2021, 09:45:00 AM

I'm not sure i'm understanding... You can just open a channel and then do a reverse submarine swap for ~50% of the funds in that channel to gain incoming liqudity?

Correct. In fact, you don't even have to do a reverse submarine swap to gain incoming liquidity. You can simply spend some coins over the Lightning Network and eventually you will be able to receive coins through the same channel. You need to spend the channel's reserve, which takes 1%-3% of the channel's capacity, before you will be able to receive anything.

AdolfinWolf

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Quote from: darkv0rt3x on January 08, 2021, 09:06:51 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 08, 2021, 08:22:36 AM

you will also need at least 1 incoming channel, otherwise it's not possible to route through your node (you can only send payments when you initiate opening a channel).

Either wait until someone opens a channel to you, or buy some incoming liquidity using Boltz or Lightning Loop (or even bitrefill IIRC)

Yes, I'm aware of that. However, I'm not interested in buying incoming liquidity. I think that is a bad business for the Lightning Network. It keeps people away from opening channels freely when what I simply want is to help the network. One shouldn't be "forced" to pay to help the network.
I'll speak to some friends to see if I can find someone willing to open a decent channel with me.

Btw, my node ID in in my signature, so if anyone want to open a channel with me, I appreciate! I'm still not sure if I'm going to open a single channel with larger capacity or a few smaller channels!

I'm not sure i'm understanding... You can just open a channel and then do a reverse submarine swap for ~50% of the funds in that channel to gain incoming liqudity?

Quote

It keeps people away from opening channels freely when what I simply want is to help the network.

Hmmm, I think you'll end up disappointed. unless you have extremely large capacity, or put more plainly, a large amount of open channels with nodes depending on you, it seems unlikely that any payments at all will be routed through your node, unless I'm misunderstanding the lightning network.

There's no reason why else it'll be routed through your node, right?

Quote

Like, should I go for a big, stable and already stable node with many channels (an contribute for some more centralization) or should I go for a smaller node, maybe less channels but also don't contribute that much for centralization? Or should I open a bigger and single channel or a few smaller channels? I mean in terms of liquidity

I think if you'd really want to contribute to the network, the answer should be both? To gain any sort of routes, you'll need to be an intermediary between wallets from webshops & more "hidden" nodes.
If you just connect to large nodes or extremely small nodes, there'll be no reason for them to route through you. Nor a possibility

^^ But I don't think there's much room for competition, fees are extremely low, and i'm pretty sure the top service providers are all well connected.

darkv0rt3x

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Activity: 1274

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I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Quote from: Carlton Banks on January 08, 2021, 08:22:36 AM

you will also need at least 1 incoming channel, otherwise it's not possible to route through your node (you can only send payments when you initiate opening a channel).

Either wait until someone opens a channel to you, or buy some incoming liquidity using Boltz or Lightning Loop (or even bitrefill IIRC)

Yes, I'm aware of that. However, I'm not interested in buying incoming liquidity. I think that is a bad business for the Lightning Network. It keeps people away from opening channels freely when what I simply want is to help the network. One shouldn't be "forced" to pay to help the network.
I'll speak to some friends to see if I can find someone willing to open a decent channel with me.

Btw, my node ID in in my signature, so if anyone want to open a channel with me, I appreciate! I'm still not sure if I'm going to open a single channel with larger capacity or a few smaller channels!

Carlton Banks

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Activity: 3430

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you will also need at least 1 incoming channel, otherwise it's not possible to route through your node (you can only send payments when you initiate opening a channel).

Either wait until someone opens a channel to you, or buy some incoming liquidity using Boltz or Lightning Loop (or even bitrefill IIRC)

darkv0rt3x

hero member

Activity: 1274

Merit: 681

I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees

Hello.

I'm about to open a channel in my Lightning node and I would like to hear some suggestions about which criteria should I consider in terms of the best option.
Like, should I go for a big, stable and already stable node with many channels (an contribute for some more centralization) or should I go for a smaller node, maybe less channels but also don't contribute that much for centralization? Or should I open a bigger and single channel or a few smaller channels? I mean in terms of liquidity
What other aspects could I take into consideration?

btw, my node is running on my laptop, I already have backups up and live, and my laptop is usually 24/7 powered on. My goal is to be able to collect some fees by helping the network forwarding payments. I'm thinking about opening a channel of around 400€ to 500€.

thanks

Topic: Openning LN channel - c-lightning (Read 179 times)