Perfect example of why governments must hold Bitcoin

andriarto

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on September 15, 2019, 03:33:01 AM

Quote from: bitbunnny on September 14, 2019, 07:03:44 AM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on September 14, 2019, 06:06:14 AM

What Maduro needs is hard cash (in the form of United States Dollars or Euro). If he had Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency instead of gold, I am not sure whether his fortunes would have brightened any further. The sanctions prohibit other countries from purchasing any assets from Zimbabwe and that includes gold and digital assets including Bitcoin.

I'm not sure that Bitcoin could help to Maduro or anyone else. They still need to stick to fiat money and gold. In general, Bitcoin is still too risky because of high volatility and governments can't rely on them. Could you imagine economic or financial system that would depend on Bitcoin? I don't think so.

Maduro should work on a national unity government after reducing the rampant corruption. Bitcoin is not a magic wand that can remove all the troubles in Venezuela overnight. As long as the sanctions and embargoes remain, there is hardly any chance of improvement in the economic situation. And there is not much that Bitcoin can do in this scenario.

bitcoin is used divenezuela because their currency has hyper inflation, so it becomes worthless, then the government chose bitcoin as their currency. I think it is right that Maduro should improve the government system first, before moving on to economic improvement, if the country has a lot of bitoin, maybe with an increase in the price of bitcoin later it can make a lot of money, making it easier to improve the economy

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Quote from: bitbunnny on September 14, 2019, 07:03:44 AM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on September 14, 2019, 06:06:14 AM

What Maduro needs is hard cash (in the form of United States Dollars or Euro). If he had Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency instead of gold, I am not sure whether his fortunes would have brightened any further. The sanctions prohibit other countries from purchasing any assets from Zimbabwe and that includes gold and digital assets including Bitcoin.

I'm not sure that Bitcoin could help to Maduro or anyone else. They still need to stick to fiat money and gold. In general, Bitcoin is still too risky because of high volatility and governments can't rely on them. Could you imagine economic or financial system that would depend on Bitcoin? I don't think so.

Maduro should work on a national unity government after reducing the rampant corruption. Bitcoin is not a magic wand that can remove all the troubles in Venezuela overnight. As long as the sanctions and embargoes remain, there is hardly any chance of improvement in the economic situation. And there is not much that Bitcoin can do in this scenario.

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I don't deny Bitcoin's profitability over the years, but I'm sure the risk is high when investing in bitcoins.
A country whose government fully believes in bitcoin is actually quite dangerous, if one day, bitcoin is manipulated and the price returns a few hundred dollars, then that country will go into crisis?
Basically, bitcoin is not technologically dominant and it only has a chance of deflation, halving every 4 years.
But Litecoin also has Bitcoin Cash as well, so what is the guarantee for bitcoin to grow forever?

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Quote from: jostorres on September 14, 2019, 09:36:26 AM

Government are not even supposed to attack cryptocurrency because it is like this even favored them more in the area that the op listed on the benefits of it for the government.

I don't think they will be putting an attack to cryptocurrencies.

Some might hate the idea of it but I don't think that all of them are the same.

I think what they would just do is take care of the citizen that are using cryptocurrencies. They can't control the crypto but they can add that under their law not only to support it but also to protect the citizens that are using it/

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Quote from: bitbunnny on September 14, 2019, 07:03:44 AM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on September 14, 2019, 06:06:14 AM

[snip]

I'm not sure that Bitcoin could help to Maduro or anyone else. They still need to stick to fiat money and gold. In general, Bitcoin is still too risky because of high volatility and governments can't rely on them. Could you imagine economic or financial system that would depend on Bitcoin? I don't think so.

Why not? Bitcoin got its own advantage which fiat or even gold can't offer. Bitcoin is the future, try to embrace it mate

. And for yout question my answer is Yes, I can imagine a cashless society. I know it's hard to believe but still possible for me especially knowing the fact that Venezuela's fiat is now losing its value and their countrynen are now looking forward into btc. Several countries are now also starting to adopt crypto which only means they really think that it could be a good tool to improve their economy.

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Quote from: Findingnemo on September 14, 2019, 09:49:04 AM

Quote from: jostorres on September 14, 2019, 09:36:26 AM

Government are not even supposed to attack cryptocurrency because it is like this even favored them more in the area that the op listed on the benefits of it for the government.

But they will when once they started to lose their fiat value due to the increase in adoption of bitcoin and other decentralized matter,so bitcoin holders need to stay at that time to bring the real financial freedom.

"Attack"? What does that mean? You don't need to think that since they will never attack nor control crypto currency since even they have bitcoin saved, the majority of it is in the investors. Also, it is not easy to control a big crypto currency like bitcoin.

TheCoinGrabber

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Well not entirely rely on it but if a part of the treasury was used to buy bitcoins when it was pretty cheap, the value would be great by now. I don't know how they would use that to boost that economy though. Maybe they can have people outside converting it to whatever fiat is needed to buy goods and smuggle them back to Venezuela? That's the only way I can see that they can use it to get around whatever sanctions they have.

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Quote from: jostorres on September 14, 2019, 09:36:26 AM

Government are not even supposed to attack cryptocurrency because it is like this even favored them more in the area that the op listed on the benefits of it for the government.

But they will when once they started to lose their fiat value due to the increase in adoption of bitcoin and other decentralized matter,so bitcoin holders need to stay at that time to bring the real financial freedom.

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Quote from: Findingnemo on September 13, 2019, 02:20:01 PM

Quote from: omonuyak on February 08, 2019, 05:13:05 AM

That is the fact and the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies or bitcoin makes one transactions synonymous. Outside governments I think even individuals should endeavour to hold bitcoin than gold in other to make things easier.

Its risky to hold decentralized thing like bitcoin as long as it didn't considered as legal tender in your country.I don't think any country considering bitcoin as currency in this world but many regulated it as digital assets so holding needs to pay taxes.

The anonymity is good for the users but really bad thing for the governments.

This is why government is trying to play wisdom with it, they don’t want to ban it because using it as an asset will also add additional benefit to the government but using it as currency will sure affect them and have you winder while they are all trying to create their own coins? Because, they know that is the only way that they can weaken the strength of bitcoin to be recognized and used as currency when they impose their own coin on their citizen which is not part of the freedom that is being signed by some of these governments when they assumed power.

Government are not even supposed to attack cryptocurrency because it is like this even favored them more in the area that the op listed on the benefits of it for the government.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on September 14, 2019, 06:06:14 AM

What Maduro needs is hard cash (in the form of United States Dollars or Euro). If he had Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency instead of gold, I am not sure whether his fortunes would have brightened any further. The sanctions prohibit other countries from purchasing any assets from Zimbabwe and that includes gold and digital assets including Bitcoin.

I'm not sure that Bitcoin could help to Maduro or anyone else. They still need to stick to fiat money and gold. In general, Bitcoin is still too risky because of high volatility and governments can't rely on them. Could you imagine economic or financial system that would depend on Bitcoin? I don't think so.

Vishnu.Reang

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What Maduro needs is hard cash (in the form of United States Dollars or Euro). If he had Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency instead of gold, I am not sure whether his fortunes would have brightened any further. The sanctions prohibit other countries from purchasing any assets from Zimbabwe and that includes gold and digital assets including Bitcoin.

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*There would actually be a problem if they were holding bitcoins and the price decreased suddenly then their economy would go so down and there would be problems and problems .

Yes it could actually be good but unfortunately it could also doom them .

They are just trying to play safe .. which could get them through these days .

You cannot blame them for choosing gold

Findingnemo

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Quote from: omonuyak on February 08, 2019, 05:13:05 AM

That is the fact and the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies or bitcoin makes one transactions synonymous. Outside governments I think even individuals should endeavour to hold bitcoin than gold in other to make things easier.

Its risky to hold decentralized thing like bitcoin as long as it didn't considered as legal tender in your country.I don't think any country considering bitcoin as currency in this world but many regulated it as digital assets so holding needs to pay taxes.

The anonymity is good for the users but really bad thing for the governments.

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Quote from: cellard on February 07, 2019, 10:56:35 PM

Quote from: deisik on February 07, 2019, 11:18:40 AM

What you say may be true, but this backup you are talking about is not possible without a way to enforce it (i.e. make it actually work as a backup in case such a need should arise), so while trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction with your gold is definitely not the way to go, trusting a few people with your bitcoins doesn't really look like a much better alternative at all unless you can make these people return your bitcoins in some way. The latter basically means you will have some power in the future, but this may not be the case with Maduro in particular and dictators in general

What would you do? If you were running some sort of dictatorship, independent republic, or any other organization which tries to be as neutral as possible, but no matter how neutral you plan to be, there's always going to be allies and enemies due game theory

I'm not running a dictatorship, so I basically don't know

However, I wouldn't trust anyone in particular. In this way, if I wanted to remain in power (and have a working backup plan), I would definitely follow a policy known since ancient times as "divide and conquer" with the emphasis on the first part (i.e. the divide part). This element is about breaking up larger chunks of power into smaller pieces so that no one individually would have sufficient power or desire to question my rule (let alone actually trying to end it)

So if we consider financial aspect of my imaginary dictatorship (for that rainy day when it might come to an end), it still comes down to trusting no one specifically. And this leads us to the conclusion that we should built a distributed system of trust where failure (read, betrayal) of any particular element or part of it could not threaten the financial stability of the whole (read, my financial well-being no matter what the circumstances might be). Do I count as a good dictator?

omonuyak

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That is the fact and the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies or bitcoin makes one transactions synonymous. Outside governments I think even individuals should endeavour to hold bitcoin than gold in other to make things easier.

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

There is a positive side that can be taken here, indeed by using bitcoin you can secure you and make transactions easily. Regarding taking oil and gold reserves, I don't agree with the regulation and bitcoin can be a safe solution because your assets are anonym, this is why the government is a little scared because if assets are truly anonymized by using fake identities or not requiring an identity when making transactions. Diversification is really needed in the world of economics not only to reduce risk, but there are still many benefits from diversification assets. In essence, in my opinion diversification is necessary, it's up to you to throw away your assets so that when you have one problem with one of your assets, your other assets can help you, I don't want to talk about shortages in gold or cryptography, but in economic problems.

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Quote from: deisik on February 07, 2019, 11:18:40 AM

Quote from: cellard on February 07, 2019, 12:08:34 AM

Quote from: deisik on February 02, 2019, 07:11:52 AM

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.

You are underestimating people's greed

What you say may be true, but this backup you are talking about is not possible without a way to enforce it (i.e. make it actually work as a backup in case such a need should arise), so while trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction with your gold is definitely not the way to go, trusting a few people with your bitcoins doesn't really look like a much better alternative at all unless you can make these people return your bitcoins in some way. The latter basically means you will have some power in the future, but this may not be the case with Maduro in particular and dictators in general

What would you do? If you were running some sort of dictatorship, independent republic, or any other organization which tries to be as neutral as possible, but no matter how neutral you plan to be, there's always going to be allies and enemies due game theory.

Let's say on a long enough timeline an imperialist force like the US tries to invade your borders and you have no options but to fight, or give up, both outcomes end up in your assets stolen.

Of all possible options, what is better but to have Bitcoin as your reserve asset and have overseas backups? with a scheme of choice to try to end up with a successful outcome. You have many options like seeds, timelocks, or just good ol trust for someone to carry your wallet. What other asset gives you options?

Like I said, it's about having options, nothing is perfect. Bitcoin is the closest to perfect there is.

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Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

At this point in time you are right but if we begin to think about the future then it makes sense that something like bitcoin should be favoured as a way to store your money safely and to avoid the scenario we are seeing now, but before we get to that point it will be important that we do this at the personal level since this is no different than what banks do to people every day denying you access to your funds just because they do not feel like giving you your money.

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because holding bitcoin will definitely make Bitcoin experience a rapid price increase, because if the government wants to hold the bitcoin it has a positive impact on the value of bitcoin

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Quote from: cellard on February 07, 2019, 12:08:34 AM

Quote from: deisik on February 02, 2019, 07:11:52 AM

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.

You are underestimating people's greed

What you say may be true, but this backup you are talking about is not possible without a way to enforce it (i.e. make it actually work as a backup in case such a need should arise), so while trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction with your gold is definitely not the way to go, trusting a few people with your bitcoins doesn't really look like a much better alternative at all unless you can make these people return your bitcoins in some way. The latter basically means you will have some power in the future, but this may not be the case with Maduro in particular and dictators in general

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Quote from: RokokGudangGaram on February 02, 2019, 07:45:47 AM

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Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 09:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

absolutely right and the more countries that adopt bitcoin, the faster bitcoin will grow and experience price increases, of course, because if the government wants to adopt bitcoin or other crypto it will have a positive impact on bitcoin and other coins

we can see that currently more and more countries are regulating bitcoin, so that this will have a positive impact on BTTC. therefore we do not need to worry about the current conditions

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Quote from: deisik on February 02, 2019, 07:11:52 AM

Quote from: cellard on February 02, 2019, 01:05:54 AM

Quote from: deisik on February 01, 2019, 05:21:41 AM

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people

But that's not my point

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.

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Quote from: shesheboy on February 01, 2019, 11:22:17 PM

Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on February 01, 2019, 10:32:32 AM

Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 10:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 09:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

absolutely right and the more countries that adopt bitcoin, the faster bitcoin will grow and experience price increases, of course, because if the government wants to adopt bitcoin or other crypto it will have a positive impact on bitcoin and other coins

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Quote from: cellard on February 02, 2019, 01:05:54 AM

Quote from: deisik on February 01, 2019, 05:21:41 AM

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people

But that's not my point

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

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If government keep bitcoin as their reserve, i think it will great for bitcoin price and market cap value will reach trillion dollar. But its hard to replace dollar because US domination in world economy. If government want to try replace dollar as reserve, US government will give sanction

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Quote from: shesheboy on February 01, 2019, 11:22:17 PM

Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on February 01, 2019, 10:32:32 AM

Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 10:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 09:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

That's the point, sooner or later as we are now in a digital era where innovations are easily been adopted, the maturity of this industry already being tested by time and as we are proceeding positively more and more people will start gathering interest and begin to use the chain.

With OP's point of view, it's so simple for a person who understand well how things works inside this market, considering those possible hassles and delays, Bitcoin really works as an alternative, an assets that can easily being transferred whenever you like it.

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Quote from: deisik on February 01, 2019, 05:21:41 AM

Quote from: cellard on February 01, 2019, 12:03:12 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 31, 2019, 03:32:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 31, 2019, 12:19:38 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people.

If you had Bitcoin, you can just trust a very select circle of people without the need of some huge circus to guard the stuff. Moving tones of shinny rock vs private keys. This is why the goldubs that criticize Bitcoin for not being a tangible good they can hold is a self-defeating argument.

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Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 10:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 09:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

Lumi3004

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Not all governments and countries think like Maduro, try to imagine if all countries hold Bitcoin, I believe the price of bitcoin for now is not like this, quite the opposite, I see this public news, CNN of course the other side can take the good side about Bitcoin is going forward.

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Quote from: juragane on February 01, 2019, 09:47:58 PM

Quote from: biskitop on January 28, 2019, 12:48:42 AM

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.

the government that is always inflation every year may be the best way to start using bitcoin in large-scale trade between countries, one of which is by facilitating traders in their country and the government having or involved in crypto currencies, this can be a country's economic savior, by making it it's easier for entrepreneurs to use government bitcoin to be profitable because it can be separated from inflation, especially to avoid the pressure of major international currencies.

It is the oversee of the governments interest towards crypto and it looks like we've through on it, only some of them just hide their btc's just to wait for the timing. Probably they took advantage of being on the stage of crisis, buying bitcoins at cheap price and make reserve in the future used.
We are headed for bringing up crypto into acceptable coins and exactly people were enjoyed using by then.

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Quote from: biskitop on January 28, 2019, 12:48:42 AM

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.

the government that is always inflation every year may be the best way to start using bitcoin in large-scale trade between countries, one of which is by facilitating traders in their country and the government having or involved in crypto currencies, this can be a country's economic savior, by making it it's easier for entrepreneurs to use government bitcoin to be profitable because it can be separated from inflation, especially to avoid the pressure of major international currencies.

magneto

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

To be fair, he probably already does. The fact that he has shown interest in cryptocurrencies (even though the Petro is essentially renowned as a scam at this stage) means that he likely has some BTC in reserves.

But I think that your point still stands. Firstly, bitcoin can be transacted with much easier compared to gold. Especially with moving large amounts of it. The liquidity that is within the bitcoin market is probably no less than the physical gold market, either. Governments who hold bitcoin instead of gold also won't have issues with storage, and in this case, being blocked from accessing the gold since bitcoin is trustless.

Perhaps governments and central banks are still concerned about the volatility of bitcoin compared to gold, which is a valid concern given that they may need the assets to perform monetary policy at any given time. But I still think that in a few years, more countries will hold bitcoin because of the increased liquidity given by institutional investors and the increased stability as the market matures. But that's not to say gold isn't a good store of value, it still is, and it will continue to be. But custodial concerns are present with it, no doubt.

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Quote from: markj113 on February 01, 2019, 09:50:46 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Well the UK and EU just buttfucked the US by launching a SWIFT payment alternative to continue trade with Iran.

The EU is pushing an EU army to render the US redundant

Actually, it makes perfect sense

Partnership with Iran despite all US sanctions, Brexit (with Britain always being the closest ally of the US), pan-European army - all of this points to the fact that we are on the verge of the EU being transformed into the Fourth Reich, if not already (with Angela Merkel as a new fuhrer). Let's remember that the prewar Iran (I refer to WWII here) had been actively collaborating with Nazi Germany, and now things start to look suspiciously similar or even familiar (at least to those who kinda been there). Everything might have turned quite differently in WWII if Iran and its oilfields hadn't been preemptively taken over by the Soviets and British in 1941

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Other dictators around the world will look at that and start dumping their assets for bitcoin instead. This could cause a domino effect where bitcoin is the safe haven for all corrupt officials and a new pump begins

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Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 10:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 09:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

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Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 09:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

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Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Well the UK and EU just buttfucked the US by launching a SWIFT payment alternative to continue trade with Iran.

The EU is pushing an EU army to render the US redundant.

What you are currently witnessing is the beginning of the end of the US with $ the world reserve currency and their role as "world police"

Menawi12

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If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

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Quote from: cellard on February 01, 2019, 12:03:12 AM

Quote from: deisik on January 31, 2019, 03:32:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 31, 2019, 12:19:38 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

cellard

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Quote from: deisik on January 31, 2019, 03:32:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 31, 2019, 12:19:38 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff. So if Maduro wanted to do it right he would already hold all of his coins. He would also appoint someone he could trust to have a backup overseas. Typically countries position themselves depending if they are from the western axis or the euro-asian axis. So then this appointed person would move to whatever country is officially supporting Venezuela, like Russia. At this point his wealth would be sitting within safe borders and he would be free to sell or not to sell his bitcoins.

For this reason bitcoin beats gold and therefore is undervalued by the $trillions.

MainIbem

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One thing that keeps occurring to me is when an institution own bitcoin, who will be in custody of the private key to the wallet? Don't you think this will be an issue for the institutions coming in to invest in Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies?

jademaxxiss012

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I do not see why it is convenient to hold bitcoin rather than gold. I know the benefits of holding bitcoin but we also know its risks and everyone suggested to invest on bitcoin with the money that one can afford to lose. This problem does need to go with a law and it can be resolved. The country knows that they the gold is not their so there is a high chance that it will be withdrawn.

Naida_BR

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There is a huge difference between gold and bitcoin right now. Gold has a stable value and bitcoin has a fluctuating value. There is no application of bitcoin in your specific example. I would agree that bitcoin could provide an easier and freer way of withdrawing the money that was stored but for the time being, these two commodities are not the same.

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Quote from: cellard on January 31, 2019, 12:19:38 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

cellard

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Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela.

As other realized this fact, Bitcoin would grow and liquidity problems would vanish.

Also we are looking at 1.2 billion. Bitcoin moves $6 billion daily on traded volume. The market could absorb it.

Moshaid

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I agree with you on the fact that the things happening to him right now won't have occurred if it were to be bitcoin but don't you think his bitcoin asset would have dropped drastically if that's where his investment is in. Well gold price also fluntuate and I think the best way for anyone planning something like this, is to put half of their investment into cryptocurrency which is the next big thing in every sector.

89squad

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Just the opposite is true. It is good that he has everything in gold. If there were Bitcoins, he would have lost 80% to nowhere due to a fall. And gold remains gold. It is still able to "win" it.

Xardasim

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If he used Bitcoin as a store of value, he would lose a lot of money. That is not 1k or 10k, storing such a money with BTC, it is a million dollar loss when Bitcoin loses every $ 1. In addition how and where money would be sold was a extra problem.

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

good luck trying to liquidate $1.2 billion in bitcoin if you needed too.

You think the price is looking bad now, it would be under $1k

Couldnt they just as easily block his access to exchanges rendering his bitcoin worthless?

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Quote from: sheenshane on January 30, 2019, 02:32:48 PM

Maybe there's a big reason why the Bank of England denied this guy's withdrawal of gold. Even Bitcoin would not be able to help Maduro on this. Imagine Maduro investing his gold to bitcoin on December 2017 and having it to the present? It would mean a big big loss of profit dude and the government will not afford that kind of loss since they can't even control/manipulate the market that enough. I also think that England listens to US's pieces of advice that will make US benefit

In fact, something is better than nothing. And right now he has been denied access to all of the Venezuelan gold stored in London's vaults, i.e. he's got nothing, a big fat nothing, if I may say so. Thus, even if he exchanged his gold at December 2017 prices, he would still have one fifth of something, much better than nothing, if you ask me. And it is unlikely that he would have bought at such prices anyway (if we don't take into account the effect that purchasing so much would have on prices) as Bitcoin had been priced so high only for a very brief period of time

Maybe, someone like him (well, actually a little wiser than him) had been prudently and providently selling his country's gold reserves at that time (and buying bitcoins)

Quote from: sheenshane on January 30, 2019, 02:32:48 PM

I remember a movie called "The Aviator" and I saw what's the truth about the old-school executives and government and how they control things and how they decide. It's more of things like this as well where they are capable of controlling the decision of others in order for them to benefit

Never saw that movie. What's its main idea, the lesson to take home?

sheenshane

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Maybe there's a big reason why the Bank of England denied this guy's withdrawal of gold. Even Bitcoin would not be able to help Maduro on this. Imagine Maduro investing his gold to bitcoin on December 2017 and having it to the present? It would mean a big big loss of profit dude and the government will not afford that kind of loss since they can't even control/manipulate the market that enough. I also think that England listens to US's pieces of advice that will make US benefit.

I remember a movie called "The Aviator" and I saw what's the truth about the old-school executives and government and how they control things and how they decide. It's more of things like this as well where they
are capable of controlling the decision of others in order for them to benefit.

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Quote from: davinchi on January 30, 2019, 12:34:35 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 29, 2019, 01:34:10 PM

Quote from: davinchi on January 29, 2019, 01:10:36 PM

~snip

You are looking at it from a wrong angle

Why do you not ask yourself why he would have to cash out in the first place? He could just declare Bitcoin as a legal tender in Venezuela instead of Bolivar (i.e. official currency), and that would solve most if not all woes with hyperinflation in this country. If Bitcoin is too expensive for that purpose and not very efficient as a means of payment (which seems to be the case), he could also make Litecoin an official medium of exchange in addition to Bitcoin being legal tender. This couple would work just wonders together in curbing insane inflation rates in Venezuela

Wrong angle? Are you sure ? These people do not have food to eat, these people are starving to death, there is a huge "marudo diet" where all of a nation lost weight collectively because of the lack of food

Yes, I'm absolutely sure

In fact, you don't even need to be as sure as I am to see things from a proper angle since you can just look into how countries fought with hyperiflation in the past. You may start, for example, with the Weimar republic. Stabilizing money is the first thing you should do if you want to get out of the pitfall you got into. Well, in case of Venezuela, you should first get rid of this clown which usurped power there, indeed

As the saying goes, you can't solve a problem relying on those who created it. And in this I agree with you 100%, i.e. Bitcoin is unlikely to help Venezuelans as long as Maduro rules them unless they start using it on their own (which they are likely already doing anyway, even without any Maduro sticking around)

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

Only if the wallets will remain anonymous. But as you can track and freeze it, as proven recently after cryptopia hack - the effect could be similar.

wendiar19

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government and banks in some countries do not care about the price movements of bitcoin, they just want to see bitcoin fall like this, while bitcoin also cannot be controlled by banks or government so that makes bitcoin unable to get support from the government.

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Quote from: deisik on January 29, 2019, 01:34:10 PM

Quote from: davinchi on January 29, 2019, 01:10:36 PM

~snip

You are looking at it from a wrong angle

Why do you not ask yourself why he would have to cash out in the first place? He could just declare Bitcoin as a legal tender in Venezuela instead of Bolivar (i.e. official currency), and that would solve most if not all woes with hyperinflation in this country. If Bitcoin is too expensive for that purpose and not very efficient as a means of payment (which seems to be the case), he could also make Litecoin an official medium of exchange in addition to Bitcoin being legal tender. This couple would work just wonders together in curbing insane inflation rates in Venezuela

Wrong angle? Are you sure ? These people do not have food to eat, these people are starving to death, there is a huge "marudo diet" where all of a nation lost weight collectively because of the lack of food.

Now, you are trying to make bitcoin or litecoin or any coin their national money? Why do you think it matters what their coin is, they do not have any money, it doesn't matter if they use bolivar, petro, bitcoin,litecoin or gold it doesn't matter at all, they do not have money, let alone money they do not have FOOD to begin with, if they could gather even couple of bucks they will buy food with it, there is no monetary savings at all.

Maduro making bitcoin the legal currency in his country would not change a single thing for him, he still wouldn't be capable of spending bitcoin the way he wants, he has over 1.2 billion dollars in his gold account which means he would need to spend 1.2 billion dollar worth of bitcoin on Venezuela which they do not posses enough things that would collectively cost that much but even if it did they would sell that coins right back to market so they could get something to eat which would make the price of bitcoin fall. Hence that logic is corrupt and wouldn't work even for a day.

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Quote from: just_Alice on January 30, 2019, 06:55:50 AM

Omg, are you seriously on Maduro's side here? He's literally doomed the country and what UK and US are trying to do is just save its remains. Citizens of country with the largest oil reserves are struggling from poverty. If he gets the money from selling oil or gold Venezuela will no longer have overseas assets and thus, eventually, won't have any value behind it. If he had Bitcoin not only he would lose most of his assets for now, but there would also be no one to stop him from illegitimate spending of all that's left

This is not the politics board

But I still wholeheartedly agree with you. And that's why Bitcoin in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing. As this case shows (I mean with London refusing to give back the Venezuelan gold to Maduro), dictators can be effectively dethroned by cutting them off of the financial support (it is just a matter of time), but with Bitcoin it will be a lot more difficult and will likely cause a lot more of collateral damage

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Quote from: romero121 on January 29, 2019, 09:29:01 AM

Even a government personality was unable to withdraw his asset on need. This shows unlike the power they hold, they are dependent on a third party source for all their financial support. Now the same is serving as a troublesome. This gets eliminated with the use of cryptocurrency. As the Op title describes more the bitcoin hold by governments more will be the security of the nation. Because on emergency the government cannot wait anymore.

Yes it can be a good for the government, but of course if the government holds a lot of bitcoin or any coin, if they withdraw it one time big time then we will see another dump of the market and normal people will suffer. I don’t like the idea of this one since government can control the market if something bad happen.

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Omg, are you seriously on Maduro's side here? He's literally doomed the country and what UK and US are trying to do is just save its remains. Citizens of country with the largest oil reserves are struggling from poverty. If he gets the money from selling oil or gold Venezuela will no longer have overseas assets and thus, eventually, won't have any value behind it. If he had Bitcoin not only he would lose most of his assets for now, but there would also be no one to stop him from illegitimate spending of all that's left.

Reid

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Or this could be a perfect example on why normal people (not in politics) should be holding bitcoin instead of gold.
You will not be a target. The thing is they cannot. You are protected by your privacy. If you are found, you can just mix it and send to another address or just put it in a trading website then withdraw to a different address again.

It will happen. Those who saves too much commodity will be an apple of the eye by their own government.

horrifiedx1

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Quote from: metalglowd on January 29, 2019, 01:43:56 PM

Well, it's just that we can't easily compare bitcoin and gold, as a whole it is very different, for gold, you don't know the supply correctly but people have very high demand up to now, while bitcoin, I will say this as speculation and not suitable to be called an investment. Because of its bubble. And im sure every country has its own policy about foreigners withdraws their money in people's country.

gold has been trusted for generations, the government holds gold to print money, even though supply is unlimited, but prices tend to rise. while bitcoin may be due to new technology it needs recognition, and the government needs time to calculate profits and losses from all aspects, so as not to harm the country

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Well, it's just that we can't easily compare bitcoin and gold, as a whole it is very different, for gold, you don't know the supply correctly but people have very high demand up to now, while bitcoin, I will say this as speculation and not suitable to be called an investment. Because of its bubble. And im sure every country has its own policy about foreigners withdraws their money in people's country.

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Quote from: davinchi on January 29, 2019, 01:10:36 PM

How would he cash out the bitcoin tough ?
Like if he had 1.2 billion dollar worth of bitcoin instead of 1.2 billion dollar gold, how would he cash out the 1.2 billion dollar worth of bitcoin ?

Not only it would be impossible to do so in his own country because I am not even sure that much money exists in Venezuela as a whole but also would have hard time selling that much bitcoin over the counter so he would had to open an account somewhere and sell his coins which would drop the price and also the value of his coins and maybe get 1 billion probably a lot less for them.

Bitcoin is something that is amazing for storing and also great for small amounts and awesome for transactions and all that however when it comes down to cashing out bitcoin is not the best way

You are looking at it from a wrong angle

Why do you not ask yourself why he would have to cash out in the first place? He could just declare Bitcoin as a legal tender in Venezuela instead of Bolivar (i.e. official currency), and that would solve most if not all woes with hyperinflation in this country. If Bitcoin is too expensive for that purpose and not very efficient as a means of payment (which seems to be the case), he could also make Litecoin an official medium of exchange in addition to Bitcoin being legal tender. This couple would work just wonders together in curbing insane inflation rates in Venezuela

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How would he cash out the bitcoin tough ?
Like if he had 1.2 billion dollar worth of bitcoin instead of 1.2 billion dollar gold, how would he cash out the 1.2 billion dollar worth of bitcoin ?

Not only it would be impossible to do so in his own country because I am not even sure that much money exists in Venezuela as a whole but also would have hard time selling that much bitcoin over the counter so he would had to open an account somewhere and sell his coins which would drop the price and also the value of his coins and maybe get 1 billion probably a lot less for them.

Bitcoin is something that is amazing for storing and also great for small amounts and awesome for transactions and all that however when it comes down to cashing out bitcoin is not the best way.

audaciousbeing

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You have made an argument based on the issue of control. Its because there is control over the gold bars that's why they can stand and insist a country cannot access its legitimate holdings. However, let's look at the effect on the overall market should the country own bitcoin instead and at once decides to sell out $1.2billion worth. The effect would not only crash the price of bitcoin, it could distort the entire crypto currency market.

maemunah

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Quote from: bitmedia on January 29, 2019, 10:37:11 AM

Quote from: target on January 29, 2019, 10:34:01 AM

In other words, they don't own gold anymore. Its like storing your BTC in an exchange that suddenly goes rogue. You can't withdraw it anymore because of technical issues they are going to be making out. In this case however, the gold was repatriated which basically are all gone. This isn't an example of why government has to have BTC since these gold are for dollar reserves, they can't do it with BTC either.

There are not even legit exchanges existed... Governments should regulate cryptocurrencies, payments, contracts in crypto... Only then they may invest and hold Bitcoins.

because in order to advance the economy of the government to be stable and I think it is better if the government cooperates with bitcoin so that the country is advanced

bitmedia

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Quote from: target on January 29, 2019, 10:34:01 AM

In other words, they don't own gold anymore. Its like storing your BTC in an exchange that suddenly goes rogue. You can't withdraw it anymore because of technical issues they are going to be making out. In this case however, the gold was repatriated which basically are all gone. This isn't an example of why government has to have BTC since these gold are for dollar reserves, they can't do it with BTC either.

There are not even legit exchanges existed... Governments should regulate cryptocurrencies, payments, contracts in crypto... Only then they may invest and hold Bitcoins.

target

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In other words, they don't own gold anymore. Its like storing your BTC in an exchange that suddenly goes rogue. You can't withdraw it anymore because of technical issues they are going to be making out. In this case however, the gold was repatriated which basically are all gone. This isn't an example of why government has to have BTC since these gold are for dollar reserves, they can't do it with BTC either.

drumamat

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Quote from: Reinsurer on January 29, 2019, 08:58:04 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Thus, Washington intends to prevent the country's authorities from "plundering the wealth of Venezuela for their corrupt purposes." Bitcoin is unlikely to be a panacea in this case.

It is very difficult to draw conclusions when it is not clear what is happening in Venezuela.Apparently everything is very difficult there.And bitcoin really in such a situation is unlikely to help.I think that even if Maduro and his government converted Fiat money into bitcoin,opponents of the current government would still find a way to prevent this money from leaving the country.

stompix

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

Yeah, too bad you're missing something:

Quote

On 25 November 2011, the first of US$11 billion of repatriated gold bullion arrived in Caracas; Chavez called the repatriation of gold a "sovereign" step that will help protect the country's foreign reserves from the turmoil in the U.S. and Europe.[226] However government policies quickly spent down this returned gold and in 2013 the government was forced to add the dollar reserves of state owned companies to those of the national bank to reassure the international bond market.

Most of the gold was already repatriated...and spent.

Second, you know that on this forum we have a rule, no collateral no loan...guess who wants loans without collateral right now?

romero121

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Even a government personality was unable to withdraw his asset on need. This shows unlike the power they hold, they are dependent on a third party source for all their financial support. Now the same is serving as a troublesome. This gets eliminated with the use of cryptocurrency. As the Op title describes more the bitcoin hold by governments more will be the security of the nation. Because on emergency the government cannot wait anymore.

Reinsurer

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Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Thus, Washington intends to prevent the country's authorities from "plundering the wealth of Venezuela for their corrupt purposes." Bitcoin is unlikely to be a panacea in this case.

deisik

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Quote from: timerland on January 29, 2019, 04:48:24 AM

Quote

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

There's always a problem when an asset is held by a third party.

The same can be said with any fiat, in my opinion. There is a risk that the bank who holds a country's reserves (especially if its jurisdiction is overseas) goes rogue and it refuses to move funds when it is instructed to. That risk is the same as what has happened here to Mr. Maduro's gold withdrawal.

Bitcoin combats this issue given its decentralization and trustless nature, as there needs no third parties to get a transaction processed and done

But it creates a whole host of other issues instead

For example, it will be extremely difficult to claw back the bitcoins if Maduro or one of his minions decides to pocket them. As you can see, no third party here is not without its shortcomings either. And I'm not even talking that the coins can be easily stolen or made appear stolen. You can steal gold too, but it will be a lot harder to hide this gold, especially if the amount of it is measured in tonnes (though I doubt that Venezuela has that much gold)

timerland

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Quote

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

There's always a problem when an asset is held by a third party.

The same can be said with any fiat, in my opinion. There is a risk that the bank who holds a country's reserves (especially if its jurisdiction is overseas) goes rogue and it refuses to move funds when it is instructed to. That risk is the same as what has happened here to Mr. Maduro's gold withdrawal.

Bitcoin combats this issue given its decentralization and trustless nature, as there needs no third parties to get a transaction processed and done.

So you're absolutely right, given that bitcoin has the positive traits of gold which makes it valuable (decentralization of currency supply, no single entity issuing the currency), whilst improving on the convenience, portability and trustlessness of remote transactions, it does make sense for countries to start holding bitcoin in reserves.

PlusOne88

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Well whatever reasons could have been laid out, I think that such a huge amount of money cannot be easily withdrawn because large volumes of money can have an impact on the economic situation in a country. Even the US was always monitoring movements of huge in flow or outflow of money. I recalled that there was somebody caught bringing large bitcoin volume to the US. It was mentioned in a post here but I cannot recall that topic. It could have help us realize the idea behind this blocking of withdrawal if found.

sirohige

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the government will not be able and does not want to hold the bitcoin because bitcoin does have the principle to be coin or digital currency that cannot be controlled by the government or whatever, the only thing that can control bitcoin is so the government will not do that and chances are the government will make the price of bitcoin fall again by giving bad news.

raven7886

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

I believe this trend might have already started like many big people and institutions might be switching over to bitcoins for their own reasons and definitely not only for diversifying. Compared to gold/diamond (one of the famous store-of-value)/USD/government bonds/wealth certificates, bitcoins got many big advantageous in terms of easy moving and easy holding and hiding purposes. Only lack of awareness is the reason why everyone is not into bitcoins till now.

Quote from: Harlot on January 28, 2019, 01:16:43 PM

If his BTC is worth around 1.4 Billion dollars in December 2017 his BTC would be around 242 Million dollars by now which is more than 80% of its original value.

What if he would have been holding prior to December 2017 ? Value is not a constrain here because one bitcoin is always one bitcoin but what are the advantageous he could enjoy in the case of opting to have bitcoins instead of gold. Please always stick within the subject of a discussion.

shield132

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haha, blocking of so huge amount of money. Some may come and say: If he has been holding bitcoin, then no one knows what would happen with price changes and so on but please also consider at the same time that currently he is in stuck and who knows will he receive his golds? With bitcoin he could receive his money in some minute.
Agree OP but I don't care, I know what I'll do and how, everyone can get knowledge, especially since we have internet.

Upgrade00

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Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 01:23:15 AM

He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Bitcoin dows give the holder a certain level of control over their wealth, and it is not impossible to convert without getting caught, especially if the holding address is not known.
Also the market cap is not fixed and and can grow, it can also drop further as well. There are downsides to every technology.

tinkerr99

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Not a simple situation however. If he kept everything in Bitcoin, then they would not have taken them from him. But the course of Bitcoin makes itself felt. But gold belongs to him anyway.

argon76

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Well, yes you are right, if he kept in cryptocurrency, then the resources would remain with him. But again, he is a man of the old school; he hardly knows much about this.

Harlot

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If his BTC is worth around 1.4 Billion dollars in December 2017 his BTC would be around 242 Million dollars by now which is more than 80% of its original value. Maduro probably didn't expect that his withdrawal will be put on hold but he also knows the risk of holding his wealth on a very volatile asset. The good thing about him holding gold is that even if the Bank of England denied his withdrawal the money is still his and after a few twist and turns he might withdraw his gold in the future finally.

LeGaulois

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Isn't The US that store gold for most countries? I'm surprised to see England knowing that the gold from England is also in the United States.
Did I miss something? Anyways, let's suppose he had bitcoins, he would need to convert it to fiat and then it wouldn't mean the funds are safe from x,y,z

Edit: he sold the gold and the bank frozen the funds?

Quote from: biskitop on January 28, 2019, 12:48:42 AM

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin...

What's menyiman?

cabron

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The point of holding BTC though is that no one can hold it for them except them. It doesn't matter whether he is good or bad but if he wants control over their government funds, don't put it in gold like they can protect it and bring anywhere they'd like.

Quote from: davis196 on January 28, 2019, 09:00:37 AM

Yeah,having more stupid dictators holding bitcoin will definitely create a good name for BTC. Grin

I can imagine all the btc haters screaming "We should BAN bitcoin,all the dictators and terrorists are using it!"
Bitcoin isn't a universal safe heaven/store of value.Do you know how easy it is for the FED to destroy bitcoin's value/market price?

Do you think they are the ones responsible of what is going on to this long bear market?

Pab

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Hold bitcoin and lost over 80% in price
Any gov can't do that
In a case of Maduro i am sure he has enough savings on some offshore accounts otherwise
generals will not support him
Those who really keep power in Venezuela is army
That new president is also praying to generals true is that junta is controlling country
President always has to be his man
It is awful all together because people suffer in country full of oil

St4yInTh3D4rk

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Actually makes sense,I hope new generation investors will understand this and invest more into bitcoin other than gold or other stocks.The only problem is that volatility for not using it as storage of value,more investors will actually care about the value more than the liquidity.

davis196

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Yeah,having more stupid dictators holding bitcoin will definitely create a good name for BTC. Grin

I can imagine all the btc haters screaming "We should BAN bitcoin,all the dictators and terrorists are using it!"
Bitcoin isn't a universal safe heaven/store of value.Do you know how easy it is for the FED to destroy bitcoin's value/market price?

deisik

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords

Actually, your argument doesn't hold water at all

If Maduro went with Bitcoin, the coins would likely have already been stolen. It is probably the reason why Venezuelan gold was on storage in London, i.e. to prevent it from being looted by whoever is in power at the moment. I remember when some African dictator fled his country with the total dollar reserves of it (something like 9M dollars). Now imagine that Maduro is overthrown (and bitcoins not stolen by that time), how are you going to get them back?

Coin-1

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

As far as I understand, the main reason for this blocking a gold withdrawal is a pressure on Nikolas Maduro by the opposition in Venezuela. I heard that some countries have recently recognized Juan Guaido as a temporary legitimate president of Venezuela.

I guess that the Bank of England did not want to block this withdrawal because other rich mans will probably no longer store their gold in this bank for fear of loosing funds.

I agree that governments should hold Bitcoin and other highly liquid crypto currencies in order not to be blocked by other countries, but it is rather difficult to cash out a really large amount of coins without crashing crypto exchange markets.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 11:59:10 PM

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

if it gets to the point where invaders are ransacking your gold reserves, it's pretty much game over anyway. what are bitcoin reserves gonna do at that point, except open the elites up to a $5 wrench attack? maybe the elites could spend them from exile, if they're lucky enough to escape. Cheesy

i definitely see the value in holding bitcoin vs owning gold in third party custody though. that's pretty obvious.

kolesozw

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EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

biskitop

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yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.

cellard

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If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

Topic: Perfect example of why governments must hold Bitcoin (Read 21501 times)