Topic: Pizza day reflection,what would it be like to build a city from scratch with btc (Read 346 times)

I agree that the real adoption is been able to be able to make payments with Bitcoin, at anytime and anywhere no matter the price of the payment. It doesn't really matter if everybody in the world starts using Bitcoin, as far as they can't use it as a currency then there is no adoption.
For now the fee has reduced, not yeat back to how it should be but there is no real guarantee that it won't rise again, hence my question.
How exactly do we make sure Bitcoin can be used as a currency without paying high fees when we use it? I mean practical ways, not theoretical ways.

yes, I understand!


it's very simple to make all this happen, in this city model, there will be simple technology and everyone will be able to use it however they want!

People learn easily!

"Just as alcohol is fuel in a flame, money is energy for man's evolution..."

And money can be anything!

It will be very simple, I just need the start!

Humanity's biggest mistake is to repeat the past hoping to get different results!

I have a plan for all of this! I need people, engineers, pisciologos to create a new mentality.

Bitcoin needs people who are out of their comfort zone.

Those who are still afraid of political systems are not ready to leave the comfort zone of the state and not even for bitcoin!

Liberland was just an example and may not fit well to your proposal as they have no livable soil. I'm just saying it's doable.
What is the mobile phone usage rate? Does everyone have access to the internet? Is it preferred cash or credit/debit card more? Are people tech-savvy? And are they willing to make such a change? If you say yes to these, then you should definitely try to create something. I think we are still slow on adoption. Any initiative to accelerate this should be supported.

People who have capital and simply want to live in the city must first show what it can provide for the community and how much it is willing to collaborate with the settlement.

A person with two arms, legs and energy to spend is worth more than any capital...

I know most people who have capital, I know what they want!

Take a look at this post, I believe it answers some points of view.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.62350782

Take a look at this post, I believe it answers some points of view.

About internet and cell phones, I have a plan.

I'm also a developer and I already have the solution for this.

Yes, it takes upfront investment and I believe I need to pay an infrastructure engineer for the city. I would like to have a contribution to be able to publish the initial project here on the forum, or if there is any engineer who lives in Brazil and knows the minimum infrastructure legislation, please contact me!

Alot of posibilities to cities like this but stablecoin would likely be the first option.

If its a planned development like city from scratch, the developer may really face the truth that they'll be the ruler of this place which may result to being a dystopian city. Whoever develops the city will definitely ask from its people and the comfort they get may be very expensive.

Or perhaps it is not about rural or urban. It's probably about the world of the internet. And that world does not really discriminate rural from urban and vice versa. It's a different world in there. And it's where Bitcoin naturally belongs. As an electronic peer-to-peer cash, Bitcoin could very well function as the internet's native currency. It knows no border. It doesn't censor. In other words, it's a currency that could be shared by everybody in the internet. Commerce in the internet is best dealt with a global currency. Bitcoin is the best there is.

Thanks for your views!

1-yes there will be many obstacles to overcome, that's life, it's more chaos and sadness than joy, some things about government I can't put here, I would be exposed from the plan, but if you are afraid of the law, remember that the Brazil accepts Bitcoin, it even accepts it until the annual tax is paid in bitcoin…

*I am not a fool, as I said in previous messages, it is the government that will have to adapt to btc and not bitcoin to the government.

2-When I speak of a rural area, I am not referring to a completely displaced area…it is a region very close to large cities (less than 100km), with the difference that there are no people living there…the first families that will be able to live in that place will be handpicked, (and yes, I would also like to include foreigners) including industries that want to participate to employ a part of them.

3-The place has public internet services, electricity with a high voltage network passing inside the property, which today is worth a fortune in Brazil!

4-I am a tourism entrepreneur, I know how to attract people. Attracting public to bitcoin will be very easy for me, people trust me, honest and hardworking traditional agribusiness family.

5- Do you doubt people support the place? my family is a refugee from the 2nd War, they came with only the clothes on their back and stayed in the hold of a ship for more than 60 days on a ship, my grandparents worked in the rural area for 50 years planting and selling to earn pennies feeding the Brazilian people for free, even so they managed to acquire all this land and today I have a good life here thanks to them, I really want to sell all this and go live outside Brazil (and I already lived abroad for 2 years), my father is a farmer failed 3 harvests and failed 1, twice the government manipulated prices and made him sell below the fair price and still owe interest to the bank... I have blood in my eyes, building a city is not just stacking bricks, it involves a lot of things that I am willing to fight, I know all kinds of dangers I'm running into…I could just run for political office, but I'm not going down that path because I already know it deeply.

6- As for investors, they can enter, I'll listen to them here, including this post is for them too, the forum is open, they don't need to identify themselves, just show a part of the proposals without compromising the plan.

The area will only be rural for the first 10 years as it will likely become larger than large retail and industrial centers.

I agree with 90% of your comments.

*I like philosophy, I have a devil and an angel who guide me at all times. haha ha


I believe that the "brilliant mind" is who created bitcoin, which can be a group of companies, a group of people, a person or even a pseudonym of John Galt from Atlas Shrugged hahaha

But these past few days I have been strengthening my thesis about SATOSHI NAKAMOTO being an AI programmed by someone who couldn't get the AI to defend the blockchain and had the brilliant idea of the AI running the firmware update through the miners and I believe the AI is programmed to Auto run satoshi nakamoto's wallet sometime to stabilize the world economy.

But I have some resistance about
"The dream of Bitcoin City is to build minds, not places."

Philosophically I agree that wealth is not related to the amount of capital (when I'm already rich), but money is the only thing that drives the life of a man who is in poverty to rebuild his family... profile living in bitcoin city, they will build the city, but I need support...

I have space to place many industries and residences, 62 hectares valued at $9,000,000.00 USD and is located 1km from the main highway that connects several divisions to other states.

I could sell the land and buy everything in btc, which would really be my parents' wish and understanding that my parents deserve it... but I feel it is my duty to change history, my family has spent 80 years on these lands, I don't want to pass 30 more years living alone in this huge place where more than 2000 people fit.

I want to give opportunity to people who can raise bitcoin and it won't be the rich guy...

WRITE THESE WORDS...EL-SALVADOR WILL GO WRONG!

IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE A COUNTRY WITH A LEGAL CURRENCY YES, BUT IT WILL NOT BE IN EL SALVADOR THAT YOU WILL HAVE ACCESSION...

MEMBERSHIP IS HIDDEN AND MODULAR.

No one will know where bitcoin city will be located so as not to be punished by the state, but they will have the option to use bitcoin and whoever opts for bitcoin will have extra benefits that are in my plans.

HOPE TO GET SUPPORT FROM THE COMMUNITY...

But I need to install some industries and 1000 people in that place to start the expansion... if it works out I will modularize in the whole country and then in the world.

This may sound like a surprise, but there is one such project in development, in El Salvador: Bitcoin City. After El Salvador became first country which accepted Bitcoin as a legal tender, their president also announced, a while ago, that he wishes to build a Bitcoin City.

As fillippone explained here,


Of course, the news also appeared in press. According to a CoinTelegraph article, President of El Salvador stated that

---

Other than that, we'll see soon first Bitcoin Tower in Dubai. Indeed, it's not an entire city, but it's a start. According to BitcoinNews.com,

Although, it's possible to create a city like that based on the concept, but I don't believe that there will be many people in such city in the initial stages of it. If you're really have the vision to build a city like that where everyone loves to adopt Bitcoin as their main currency, then you'll have to make sure that the city meets every technical requirement's which are needed for the proper functioning of Bitcoin. One of those basic requirements is that the city should have proper infrastructure to allow everyone to access internet for free because without internet such city can't fulfil the purpose.

Another important requirement of such city is to provide smartphone or computers to every individual living in the city because if they don't have such device then even with a internet connection they won't be be able to access the Bitcoin network, and there won't be any transactions in the case. If those requirements are met, the final step is to promote such city with the help of marketing. The ones who find such facilities in a city will at least love to visit the place.

You can also offer some extra perks to the citizens of the city so that they would love to stay in the place and would like to have their families in such place. I must say that creating such city is truly is high effort work and it requires a lot of investment to start such cities.

Brazil has no problems with geopolitics and our legislation allows BITCOIN, it is a country in expansion.... The international airport is less than 30 minutes from my farm.

I took a look at google maps, it seems to me that nothing has been developed there yet and there is no neighbor to buy the excess production, it must be at the beginning, it seems to me that they started in 2015.

https://goo.gl/maps/Vcc6VJeSUkcY45o56

You are completely right!

I've been thinking about this very carefully... in the organized world, the bank makes the "loan" to companies... I've been thinking about bitcoin investors, investing in poor people with a lot of willpower to get out of that life, but I remember that I don't think it's prudent to start without an organization... I need an infrastructure engineer to modulate the regional and separate territorial lots to organize at least basic sanitation, I don't want to have problems with diseases or with the state hehehe.

I imagined playing the role of a bank and lending her money so that she could build or produce something that her neighbor could consume and bitcoin could circulate in the region...

I've seen some land subdivisions in China and Japan, they seem very organized, easy to modulate and expand, if you have an engineer willing to leave your comfort zone, please contact me!

Thank you very much for the strength...

Here in Brazil, there is a company that is doing this work for the excluded.

They are opening accounts with withdrawal limits with the national minimum wage to receive and transact their money in Tether, so the state cannot say that they are doing money laundering or illicit work.


*Just reminding you that:
IN BRAZIL, THERE IS A VERY OLD REGULATION THAT ALLOWS THE USE OF BITCOIN AS A CURRENCY!

**I don't remember exactly the law, but it says: ....if this foreign currency is an OFFICIAL currency in any other country, then BRAZIL HAS THE OBLIGATION TO ACCEPT IT!

today: BITCOIN IS OFFICIAL CURRENCY IN Central African Republic and El-Salvador

THAT IS, BITCOIN IN BRAZIL IS LEGALLY ACCEPTED, SO THERE ARE NO PEOPLE WITH COURAGE BECAUSE AS I SAID:

URBAN PEOPLE ARE FEARFUL AND ARE IN THE COMFORT ZONE.

They won't adopt bitcoin because they don't have the fear of the state, but ask a Nigerian, African (people who can't get out of poverty)...Soon Soon, these people will be the new millionaires of the world, while the rest of the people Conservatives (those who are afraid of change) are going to get poorer and poorer and don't have the courage to even make a revolution. (neither with weapons, nor with technology), the roles will be reversed and then it will be too late.

once again, thanks for the strength!

I will like to be part of this vision but I am scared that there are a lot of hurdles to surmount. For now, what is available is your determination(vision) and land (location). But I am afraid that this type of project will succeed if it has the support of the government. You cannot build a bitcoin city without the approval and support of the government because they can frustrate it.

I also think that you only take bitcoin awareness to people but you cannot force them to use bitcoin. The rural area is not an ideal place for Bitcoin to strive because they are mostly occupied by the less privileged that might not be able to use bitcoin. This project might be workable if you have an immigration plan to attract people from other countries that will occupy the city because I doubt the ability of the current rural dwellers to sustain the project. This is why you also need the government.
If you know people who have money to invest in the proposed area, I will advise that you allow them to invest. But you need to have an agreement with them to accept Bitcoin for payment. Accepting bitcoin will be a major clause in the agreement. Their investment will attract more people to your area and the income of the people will also increase because jobs will be created. This will naturally attract bitcoiners to the area and adoption will grow.

Sincerely, I will like to live in a rural area where people will be free to buy and sell with any currency they like. Please don't stop dreaming because dreams come true.

The dream of a virtuous city has been haunted by many people for a long time, starting with the fact that the city is fair and has the basic services that the citizen needs, passing through the fact that all its members are rich, but if it really happened and this city was, then the situation will not change much.

Wealth and poverty are not related to the amount of capital you own, nor is it related to the wealth of your family, but rather to the ideas in your head and how to implement them. A rich family or a famous basketball player who ends up as a cleaner or works in marginal professions.

The dream of Bitcoin City is to build minds, not places.

There is a country called Liberland, between Croatia and Serbia. Liberland Chose Bitcoin as National Currency. I think they are still active. Last week President said Liberland's financial future is Bitcoin. There's still a long way to go but we see some progress.

I understand about the fear of huge corporations fearing bitcoin...because the traditional market has 500 trillion dollars, so if only 5% of that value enters bitcoin, many people will become millionaires...

I know that soon, in less than 8 years we will have these new multi-millionaires here and I want to be ready for that.

I've dealt with a variety of audiences my entire life.
In my tourist trade I found several profiles of people, from the poor to the millionaire, I am friends with some professional soccer players, businessmen, etc... I guarantee you, they are all "loose".

I already made the proposal to everyone, but they don't think like colonies and much less in the common well-being within society, they only think of themselves, (and to think that they became millionaires consuming the poor's money).

But returning to the case of governments "intervening", I find it very difficult for governments not to want to participate together.

I cannot see a village forming without the participation of the state, even if it is small, the state will have to participate.

But remember one thing, always! the money will no longer be in the hands of governments.

We will pay every cent of the tax as long as it is 100% returned, or we take the reservation.

*I'm going to tell you a fact that happened around here: B*nance had to open a company with the Brazilian government.

*A curious fact is that the BR stock exchange has a maximum of 4 million participants. That same year, 44 million Brazilians invested in crypto assets, that is, there was a flight of capital from fiat money to bitcoin...

Brazil has 220 million inhabitants, only 5% are mega entrepreneurs, 15% are people who earn less than 800usd per month where they leave 65% in taxes, the rest are poor, they work to put bread at home every day.

What I mean is that it was not the brokerage that forced itself to have a tax address in Brazil.... Brazil had to buy the brokerage because 44 million people left with the country's reserves for a brokerage!

And it will be like this with any city where the poor adopt bitcoin.

I was once poor, I don't want to be poor again and I don't wish that life on anyone... I want people to evolve!

Before building a bitcoin city, build a village first. Don't pretend to big ambitious projects that you are not yet ready for and start with smaller projects that will be on your shoulders. It is necessary to go through all the stages, from small to large, and it is impossible to skip any of it. I consider all these wet dreams about the bitcoin-city to be stupid and unrealizable, if this is not approached at all deliberately. Your desire to start bitcoin adoption from your area seems like a very prudent decision. This is where we need to start, from the streets, districts, quarters, so that it eventually grows into a bitcoin-city.

That's why I put together this post, I want to meet people who can contribute and build an orderly and mature planning together with me!
*Perhaps, a first model for testing and spreading around the world.


About the internet, today we have optical fiber, 5g and via satellite with star link, so we have several options, without thinking about the apocalypse.

Internet connection is important, but I believe that soon we will be making our transactions in a semi-offline format... as I mentioned in the previous post, the Lightning Network can be a new model for managers (banks), today it is like a prepaid credit card, recharge and use.

Soon new competitors will appear that will offer a service where (if) you leave a part of your real bitcoin as a reserve, you will earn interest and still have credit to use in Lightning as they always did in traditional banks, with the difference that there is no legislator to execute or not, to take or not to take your reservation, only in a smart contract.


* People will question me: We still need the internet!

I would say no. Soon we will have a certificate inside physical devices such as a cell phone, ring, nfc, etc., which will store the signature of your offline certificate, which today is already replaced by the current credit card, that is, we already have a device to authenticate offline transactions.

Probably cities will have their own banking networks like Lightning in "intranet network" mode, which in the future will also be decentralized and they will be able to work offline. For example, if a wallet has not undergone any movement, then it is because the reservation is still there, why not LN (Lightning Network) give the credit to your client and let it run in offline mode as long as you authenticate with your certificate?

At the end of the day, it's up to LN to synchronize and update the tables, so that the banks return to their original role at the beginning of time.


About the habits of society, in my view people will adapt normally as long as it becomes a habit (using bitcoin).

To become a habit means that it will be people who don't know any urban vices...I think I have a plan for that, hehehe, I commented in the first post that there were 12 families living here, none of these people knew how to read and write, they learned here, and when I introduced the microwave oven to them, they made the maximum effort to learn how to use it (hehehe) that's why I commented on the first post, "WE WILL NOT EXIST AS LONG AS IT COMES FROM THE URBAN PEOPLE AND YES FROM THE RURAL PEOPLE" so I reinforce.. ..the city is for great visionaries who really want to take care of people, show the right path for evolution and expand knowledge, just like "the great master Satoshi did it!", remembering that this has nothing to do with political systems, but with rules to be followed.

They will have freedom and wealth, (freedom is not land without law.)


Once again, thank you very much for your cooperation.

It is important for people to hear problems that may occur on the road to building bitcoin city.

That's right that's right, I think you understand the true purpose of Bitcoin.  It was created to bring financial freedom to the masses but the real adoption will start from the bottom where it is not allowed to have a bank account, where the population is poor and needs a functioning payment system that can reach anywhere and above all is exempt from taxation.  Barvo continues you are on the right track.

I think this topic was brought up a few times in discussions about settlements on water. I haven't checked where these projects are now, but that guy who was living in a floating home got raided and his home was dragged back to shore.
Unfortunately the governments don't want these projects to succeed because they would show people that living outside their influence (or oppression, call it what you want) is possible. That's why they don't like bitcoin because it gives people a way to leave the system and they don't want them to. More people in the system means more sheep working for the elites.

This point of view on libertarian society is interesting, but I see that the "libertarian system" was lost along the way with the infiltration of capitalists and socialists, messing with the people's mentality.

* Freedom is being able to have a house without having to put up a fence, alarm, security...etc, freedom is not worrying about going out at 3 am without fearing being robbed or kidnapped, for example, I don't care about paying taxes, as long as 100% are redistributed to society in the form of infrastructure and not SERVICES, SOCIETY (THE PEOPLE) are responsible for providing SERVICES and not POLITICIANS/GOVERNMENT.

* WE HAVE TO ADAPT THE STATE TO BITCON AND NOT BITCOIN TO THE STATE!

I agree about energy sources and basic sanitation, it is important to have some solutions for this.

I've seen some natural systems for "dirty scum" (feces) that don't harm the environment, maybe it's one of the first solutions without having to need the state initially.

As for water, the place has a lot of water, there is a huge artificial lake of 1 hectare by 5m deep that can be used as a power generator, but I don't like the idea of being totally independent, that brings problems in the long term.

*About companies not being able to have stationary energy? I believe that as an example would be a solar, wind or nuclear energy farm, correct?

Thank you for your cooperation!

As for the fees, I believe it won't be a problem, today we are seeing a test done with the "lightning network".

I see this type of maneuver as a traditional bank and I think it's great.

On the one hand, we have a centralized network, but with low fees, it is as if we were carrying a prepaid credit card.

You don't need to carry your hard wallet everywhere to buy bread and milk...

As for regulations, I don't see a problem with bitcoin, anyone who wants to attack btc will spend a lot of money, the more transactions the more the fees go up, this feeds the value of bitcoin!

I would like to remind you about my thesis:
"Bitcoin adoption won't happen in urban areas, it will happen in rural areas!"

*this adoption they are creating within urban businesses, they are called "bubbles", because they are creating startups to resell to banks and devalue shareholders' money in IPOs!

**in urban areas, people are less encouraged because they are in their comfort zone and are afraid of change, that's why they tend to be fish trapped in big fishermen's nets!

***just a note: I see this city, with at least 70% of internal resources, so two things can happen:

1: People with a lot of btc will want to live in the place to be able to use bitcoins in a quiet life, without a state devaluing their capital.
2: The state will ask to provide resources such as basic sanitation and energy (electricity and oil), in this case we will be able to ask for a reserve in XYZ bitcoin as guarantees in a contract, if they do not honor the projects and deadlines, they lose the reserves (agreement is democracy).

Thanks again for your collaboration, your opinion is a concern of many people in this new world!

If you really want to build a bitcoin city like that, surely you have to have an orderly and mature planning. You also have to have a strong foundation or motivation to add enthusiasm to building your dream city. Then what you have to pay attention to too, the place that you will make as a bitcoin city land is a stable internet network. Because the internet network is one of the most important points in sustaining bitcoin adoption or building a bitcoin city. To build a bitcoin colonial in a village, you must first see what habits are often carried out by people in that place. Because sometimes there are many typical people who are difficult to invest with, in fields that are foreign to them and not their track. For example, people who don't update in the online world. Then the next suggestion, you need to prove the results of trading bitcoin to the target people you want to invite to join the world of bitcoin investment. Because that way people are usually attracted more quickly. And the last suggestion is that you have to be someone who can mingle with all walks of life, so that when you start forming a bitcoin city or bitcoin colonial, it will be easier.

results of recent events is that the FEE to use bitcoin is more then the cost of a pizza. so no one can buy pizza with bitcoin.
so bitcoin is not longer a good association with "pizza" due to not being able to buy one without spending more then the cost of a pizza just to pay for one.. ("buy one, pay twice")

this has caused many 3rd world countries to not want bitcoin because fees are more then their wage for 1-10 hours of labour. where as other payment methods are far cheaper fees.

the solution is not to invent a new network to tell people to move over to. because thats not solving bitcoins utility cost, thats not adopting bitcoin. thats abandoning bitcoin.. . the solution is not to promote bitcoin right now to those that cant afford it because it will just pee them off that they have been talked into using a currency with higher fees than their wage. thus they will hate bitcoin and never want to use it in the future if their first experience is bad

right now the solution is to get fee's back down to reasonable levels on the bitcoin network. to then make it worthy of adopting in 3rd world countries

building a city is a gimmick. especially if the fees are more then a days labour of a farmer. it will not help the farmer sell his produce, people would just get their produce from other villages

first what is needed is to make bitcoin affordable as a currency then and only then use that to build out a real world community and utility of produce. goods and services payments with bitcoin in an area

Such city will need to be compatible with the Bitcoin ideals in order to be a success. So, I'm thinking of something close to libertarian society , or perhaps a community with less powerful center with people owning their own water sources in form of private borehole/wells, electricity sources inform of private generators etc. If having companies becomes necessary for water, electricity or things like that then each member of the community will need to own a stake in the companies and contribute to their future growth. The companies won't be allowed to build any stationary facility. Their facilities should be modular facilities contributed by stakeholders within a given standard and they should be easy to move around when necessary

I think this is far away. Banks are always looking to get rid of cryptocurrencies. The FEE accuses cryptos of being securities. The market is easy to manipulate. Too many scams in the market. Solving all the above problems is a long-term problem for the market

Reflection on pizza day, what would it be like to build a city from scratch, accepting Bitcoin?

For the past 6 years I have been studying bitcoin and how it could improve our lives.

I've already thought about several business strategies involving bitcoin here in Brazil and I came to the conclusion that none of them will work if we are not the example.

I live in an area of 60 hectares that in the past was completely taken over by family farming where we had 12 families helping each other. Over time, some were leaving and going to look for something better in urban areas because of the suffering lifestyle of the countryside, natural for human beings, to evolve!

My parents own this area that we now operate with local tourism, the business is well and functional, but it is not something I want to see in the next 30 years of my life.

Why I brought up this topic: the idea is to get out of the btc bubble concept and start building adoption naturally.

It will not be in highly urbanized areas that will bring adoption, because in those places, most are comfortable, they don't need to plant, drinking water, energy, basic sanitation, etc, arrive at the doors of their homes, that is, they will be the weak, (rural areas) unexplored places that will create true adoption, because “if the poor are getting richer, then the ego of the rich will start to start true adoption” !

When money was invented, it was not the kingdom that created it, it was people, the kingdom saw that it was an opportunity to share wealth, to "help" society, but society did not need help, everything was flowing naturally, or either we saw the opportunity of a big guy, wanting to dominate over the small one. Today we can create our own colony and start using bitcoin, reducing this risk.

I would like to hear your opinions, I even know some people who have a lot of money, but I realized that if I accept their investment, the concepts of natural colonization will not be applied in the place, but another super profitable business where they will want selling more expensive to other people and the place will not be populated naturally and the consequence of this is that we will not have bitcoin adoption.

*Remember: the “OBVIOUS” is not clear! Something only becomes “OBVIOUS”, when the demand for people speaking increases stating that it is “OBVIOUS”, and if not many people are speaking, then it is not “OBVIOUS” yet!

* Bitcoin had everything to go wrong! But from what I've studied, IT'S VERY RIGHT!

If you are a visionary person of great knowledge, please give your opinion on how we can start building a city that can bring the “CLARITY OF THE OBVIOUS” to create true bitcoin adoption, please start bringing your ideas for us to evaluate together how can we build a super colonization of people living and trading bitcoin in a rural area, the beginning of digital colonization can start to be written now!