Topic: Police can confiscate refugees' valuables. bitcoin not affected... (Read 526 times)

Didn't the Danish Parliament that is a democratically elected group of people, propose and passed this law?

It is not greed of all humans. The number of refugees in Denmark is in tens of thousands and they have this law. We currently have about 3 million refugees if I'm not mistaken and we don't have such a law and don't even think of such inhuman laws, we just open our doors and welcome those fleeing their war torn countries.

Danish are not like that, there is no government to create this law it comes from human greed. this is the inhuman greed of a small part of human society.
It's obviously robbery so there's no way it's going to be used properly.
No asset can hide from the bad guys like bitcoin. It's easy for us to protect our assets by keeping the seeds in mind.

When you do already have the enough or sufficient experience then you would able to determine which things are risky and which things are just right to be done.It isnt surprising that you would really be that

paranoid when it comes to security on which you do really end up on steps which is really just or bit too much which you cant just make out things complicated if you could simply wrote down those phrases.
Well, its better to be safe than sorry because regrets do always come in the end if you are really that careless so i dont see anything wrong on here.

 I do not think that you need something that bad, I mean we are talking about seed phrases, for most people that will not mean anything at all. Just store them like you would store anything else and nobody would even know. Sure even your mail could be hacked, so sending it to your own mail could be a bit bad, but just do it in seperate emails and nobody would even understand. Do it whatever method feels better for you, but it all comes down to your crypto being safe no matter what. Unless you put it in an exchange though, in that case hackers could hack into the exchange and steal money and the exchange may not be able to pay you.

This why bitcoin is superior when it comes to things like this. No one can confiscate your coins as long as you keep it safe. You can hide your seed phrase by spreading the words around (memorizing it would be a little risky, don't you think?) and making storing them in multiple "things". You wouldn't even need to spread the words. You can write it somewhere and I doubt anyone would notice or care what it is.
But I always wondered, when someone moves from one country to another, how do they "move" their coins legally to that country. Do they declare that they hold bitcoins at the immigration or something?

Ask an English person about how good England is, and you will get mixed signals, some may like it, some may dislike it, but they would "generally" (not all) be proud and happy that they are English and not from somewhere else. Ask an Indian, or a south African, or native American or basically any place they committed crimes and they will tell you what they think about the English.

So, you may think that Denmark is not a nation that would do this, but others around the world may have some other stories to tell. Sure Ukraine could have been treated differently, just like how European nations treated Ukrainian refugees differently than Syrian ones, but apparently Denmark wanted to be fair and did it to everyone.

This is why I love crypto others wouldn't know that you are an investor or supporter unless you say so,
They wouldn't even know how much you have unless you show it to them,
So cryptocurrency is the best way for them to secure their funds.

I remember this jewellery law very well. Hard to imagine sophisticated, progressive countries using the logic that "hey, if you're carrying valuables then it must be used to pay for the cost to give you refuge" but hey, maybe I'm super conservative. And you're right, with Bitcoin, you no longer need to swallow diamonds or eat gold sand to later sieve from your poop. Though I wouldn't be surprised if there's already tech looking into identifying electronic access from refugees. I've seen the emerging tech on trial in the EU like iBorderControl... detecting lies in your facial expressions. Some of it's way out there.

I'm not a tinfoil hatter but even I warn my kids that no matter where they live, no matter how nice and cosy it all seems, the government will turn on you if it works for them. And not because every government is malignant, it simply is a matter of you being in the way of things.

It has long been clear to me that democracy works to some extent in Switzerland where the government always asks the people what they think about something before a decision is made, not in countries that have elections every 4 or 5 years, sells people the story of how to vote, and then work in the interest of banks, corporations, and their own interests.

Ever since they started using terrorism as the main excuse to terrorize us, through a pandemic that has given them even more power - we need to ask ourselves what’s next? Democracy is a dead letter on paper, there is only an illusion - obey or you will have a bad time in life.

At what point are we going to admit that the term they feed people called "democracy" has always been nothing more than a carrot dangling in front of people to lull them into submission. The ugly truth is that every single country that has been claiming democracy for decades has been a modern dictatorship.
The messed up part is that, things are only going to get worse.

Phone apps? I've never seen them demand to unlock a phone for them. This is an invasion of privacy. Anyway, spotting a crypto wallet is close to impossible because you can have a thumb drive or a memory card with you and they'd have to spend hours searching through it all to find if you have a wallet installed or not. You could also have a simple text file with your private key with a changed extension, so that it looks like a system library or something.

The only way for people to start losing their stuff is if the border guards would start simply stealing all electronics: phones, memory cards, cameras, smart watches... Then there's always a way to smuggle files on a sim card, put it inside your shoe or something. In extreme situations you can always send a password protected file to someone you know in the country to which you're trying to flee, or put it in the cloud. If you know they're going to strip search you and take everything, cloud actually looks safer.

I've seen some of you talk about currency exchange. You won't even be able to exchange anything. I've heard that Ukrainians who moved to Poland have trouble exchanging their fiat because local exchanges don't want to accept it anymore in fear of the government collapse in Ukraine. They don't want to be stuck with extremely volatile UAH or RUB.

I thought that having cash is pretty safe, but it appears that you need to have "safe" cash like USD, GBP, CHF, or similar. If you hold on to your Lebanese or Sudanese pounds, you may end up holding a bunch of paper one day.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" as Shakespeare would say in his famous play Hamlet. But those unfamiliar with the EU would be surprised at how rotten it is in its member states when it comes to strange laws that border on some kind of madness hard for the normal mind to comprehend. Although some say that this law in Denmark does not apply to refugees from Ukraine, it is a shame that it even exists - although its intention is obviously to discourage refugees from seeking asylum in that country at all.

Although cryptocurrencies are easy to hide, I would not be surprised if one of the EU bureaucrats came up with the idea that every refugee must report possession, or sign a statement that he does not own cryptocurrencies under threat of criminal liability if he is later found to have lied.

I would guess that there may not be some law. I mean we are talking about just some cops or soldiers that search everyone (to make sure nothing illegal comes into their nation) and if they see valuables, they could say "either give me this, or I will make it as hard as I could for you to get in", in which case if you refuse, that person will reject you coming in, or tell others that you have a dangerous thing in your possession, detain you, search you, maybe even full body cavity search you, basically make your life a hell, and maybe even cause you to be marked and not get in or even if you do, not in the same conditions as others.

When this happens to a dozen people, and you hear it, you just realize accepting to give it to the person is a better get away. It is disgusting but that is how horrible whole humanity is and not just based on one nation, it is the whole humanity.

I am aware of the risk and would normally not suggest that anyone store their keys or seed phrase online, it is a terrible idea. I was considering a worse case scenario where you have to take a radical approach.

I was discussing a situation where the laws were being bent in one country, which does not affect international platforms not hosted there, it still presents a huge risk however and is not recommended.

If police can't confiscate bitcoin then how about fiat money sitting in your bank accounts? Jewelry law allow police to capture physical stuff from refugees but not anything digital. Governments are very clever in making such laws, as refugees usually carry valuable items while they travel since they need money to buy stuff like food, shelter etc.
Bitcoin is ideal in such situations provided refugees have access to Internet and they can easily convert btc to Fiat for day living.

Wow, I had no idea such a law existed, and now I'm wondering if there are other such countries with similar legislation. It's so crazy and unfair, really, because when people are running away from serious problems in their own country, they take all the funds they have with them, and of course they need those funds to sustain themselves. Not giving free food and accommodation is a foreign country's right, but giving it and confiscating everything these people have in return is very unfair. You're right that Bitcoin can help with this. But I think that writing down the words is much better than memorizing them. As my country is now hit by a full-scale war and many Ukrainians are now becoming refugees, I realize that the psychological state of these people doesn't exactly allow for keeping 12 words in the right order in their mind when their first priority is not being hit by a bomb.

A piece of paper with random words wouldn't really ring a bell, so technically if Denmark is to impose that law still, anyone with bitcoins can bypass it and still have much to spend afterwards. That jewelry law is like asking a person to give some deposit in order for them to stay at the host's place, except that person is running away for their lives and have essentially nothing on them. The refugee still has to spend money for themselves, and Denmark only has to let refugees stay with no additional costs on their pockets, so why would they ask for a lot?

Denmark is like, "Oh you're country is ravaged by some problems? Please come in, but I would be needing some payment upfront for your stay."

According to google refugee means someone that flee from his country for some reason, it could be war and this could be happening now to Ukrainians. They don't have money but they carried some items, this is the one that authorities confiscate to pay for their stay but why will they forcefully do it? Maybe because the item was too valuable for the person and they won't simply hand it.

Bitcoin is helpful in this situation or we can simply say all cryptocurrencies. The reason why people prefer btc much over altcoin is that btc is stronger. They should still be careful though because most authorities now know what are cryptos. They will know if what you wrote in a book is a seed phrase or not.

I didn’t think Denmark was the type of country that would do something like this. I would consider this straight up robbery, even if it was “properly” used to fund their stay in the country. But you’re right this is a glaring example of how bitcoin can be an asset with no physical presence and that’s a huge deal. 

And could also be the most dangerous I must say because in a state of war your mind might be exhausted and there is a likely possibility to forget the whole words I believe there are also better ways of moving your phrase even in the few possessions you are moving with but certainly not written all in one place. But I want to believe in a state of war that is applicable to the Ukrainian citizens now, I don't think they will be subject to that law.

I don't think this so called law affects refugees from Ukraine.

Some countries have very strict laws that they enforce when entering the country, so border police and customs officers can request access to all electronic devices and require you to provide them with access to all protected files and apps. This is just an example for the US, but I think the UK and especially Australia have similar measures.

We are talking about refugees here, right? Not common tourists....
I this case I would be afraid of corrupted policemen, and also this  "jewelry law".

Anyway, even for tourists there is a limitation of carrying at most 10,000 USD when visiting many countries. One day bitcoin might become a problem here, I guess.

And it is easy to spot a HW, or to recognize a seed phrase once you look at it and know what that is.

That is true, bitcoin is the best asset that can be kept and not noticed as the seed phrase can be written on a paper which is all what is needed, but I can not memorize it because I do not trust that, I can forget. But this kind of situation can be difficult because if seephrade is noticed on paper, the police can steal it if the police official knows about it, saying all should be seized. But I think having it on paper will be the best way like embedding it inside many words in a way I will not mistaken it.

what!? that feels like an outright robbery in the guise of "law". I can't believe that a country that is "relatively civilized" and "relatively European" has such an uncivilized law. what's worse is that the law would make refugees, asylum seekers, and immigrants vulnerable to mistreatment.

I hope people would realize this and use it to their advantage.

That is quite messed up. Why would you deprive a people running from war from their valuables? I understand if they have coffers with millions of dollars with them, but a few measly thousand and a some nice jewelry? Thats disgusting. Shame on whichever countries do this. Another excellent reason why the people should move all their money into Bitcoin. Get your money out of the hands of the governments and never worry about having it confiscated.

What is wrong with people nowadays....

Yes, this is a real and secure fund, this is a real free asset, and now it is more and more felt that Bitcoin is an asset that we must have. The thinking caused by this war is too profound. Swiss banks are not very safe, and where can they be safe.

Now that's a pretty communist law,if you ask me.
The Danish police confiscating items and money,in order to "fund" the stay of the refugees in Denmark?
Can't the refugees simply fund their own stay with the money and items,which are about to be confiscated?
This doesn't make any sense to me.Anyway,Bitcoin can successfully serve this purpose,but so does every altcoin as well.This means that Bitcoin isn't more special than any altcoin,when it comes to hiding your wealth(maybe except the centralized altcoins).I'm not shitting over BTC.I'm just saying that we have to stop with the biased opinions about how special,unique and magnificent Bitcoin actually is.

Yes, I have said it before.... Bitcoin is the best "relocation" tool there is to protect your wealth from threats. Take China for instance... when they banned Bitcoin mining, they effectively banned Bitcoin too..... so Chinese miners had to find ways to relocate with their "wealth" to start again in other countries.

Also, when Ukrainians flee their country, they are cut off from the Banking system and it is also not practical to flee with Gold and Diamonds and Silver, because criminals will use this opportunity to rob them. (They might even be ambushed by the Russian soldiers and they might lose all their wealth)

So, it is a good idea to withdraw your capital from Banks before the conflict and to convert it into Bitcoin.... then you transfer it to "paper" and you laminate it to hide it in "code" that only you could decipher or decode. (Bury a backup copy...so that it can be unearthed, in the event that you might need it later) 

This is why it's called freedom of funds and out of central control.Was not aware about this law and see how they can confiscate your goods against your will also and you can't Rebel because they have setup a law for it.It is like they take your goods if they find it suitable and you can't say anything as you would be criminal if you do so.On the other side if they don't have idea about btc in your wallets you can utilise them easily without any officials taking it away from you.The money with no physical existence and complete security is best in these cases.Still people ask why it's best.

Can't agree more! Europeans are by nature racist. There are definitely exceptions but I have seen hardcore racism in countries like Poland and Romania where I had visited them for international process transitions for my employer. In Poland, the trainings used to happen in polish and we used to have an interpreter. But while writing emails, it was always in English which proves the trainer knew English but never chose to speak to make it easier for me and my team.

I am sure not all Europeans are like that, especially in UK and Germany.  But recism and discrimination is real in Europe. Anyone who had visited them from Asia for work purposes, will surely agree with me!

That's a terrible idea in my opinion, specially for a chaotic situation where the laws are being bent or don't even exist anymore. Those so called "secure" platforms could start taking their money and never giving it back. Not to mention that any form of online storage of your keys is very risky itself.

I preferred memorizing seed words and pretending to be the saddest man in the world without anything, maybe the police won't really pay attention to me since their eyes say it all. When you are an immigrant, it's better to lay low and it's fine to be the only one who looks poor in the eyes of the people but you know to yourself that you are not like that and you're just doing it to safety your assets and yourself because no one interested with you when they see you have nothing with you.

And you have provided the answer to your own question. Well, the P2P alternative could be too, I haven't even done it yet because it's still a dream. Why am I so sure? because basically, we can access the exchanges wherever they are and then withdraw them through an account with that country's fiat. I think this analogy is simpler and easier to understand

By passphrase, you mean seed phrase. Right? Note that seed phrase is different from passphrase.
Seed phrase is a series of words (usually 12 words).
Passphrase is a combination of words or letters added to your seed phrase for more security.


Add a passphrase to your seed phrase.
No one can know there's a passphrase added to your seed phrase. Even if someone forces you to open your wallet, you can use your seed phrase without the passphrase to generate completely different addresses.
As suggested by pooya87, you can even send a little amount of bitcoin to the wallet created without the passphrase.

I tend to agree with this and I have done this so many times and ended up forgetting what I memorized.  So, I highly advise anyone not to do this if you have seed phrase because one mistake you wouldn't recover your Bitcoin.

It could be more effective if you will write the seed phrase on the books and spread them all on every page and only pages you need to memorize where you wrote the seed phrase.  But of course, not only books, just spread all your books 5-10 books the same pages much better and no one probably notices a single word per page.

This is why Bitcoin is always safe to store not only a value, for privacy purposes too.

I agree with bitmover, mixing your passphrases will make you safe but I am much worried about forcing people to open their bitcoin wallet and make them send actual their Bitcoin if ever they will see these such passphrases or some Bitcoin-related stuff. It's like they are being hold-up or actually stealing their Bitcoins and they will send it to a particular address. But yeah, bitmover idea is still good, you can mix them on multiple wallets in case.

Good to look at  that there is some exemptions which is really that understandable specially on the current situation that they are facing on which is something humanitarian kind of act.
Speaking about confiscation due to those kind of laws then crypto would really be a big help on times like this.

To be honest, I can't imagine a situation where police at the airport search the seed phrase at the passenger.
How to make it happen at all to suspect someone of "carrying bitcoin" with them? I mean, police dogs can't smell it, can they?

Yes, memorizing the seed is the right way to overcome such situations of forcefully taking the belongings of the refugees. The technology have grown good, but the same can be controlled by them once people enter the new country as refugees. So, using technology platforms to store the seed isn't a good decision.

I've got some simple technique, but this too could get caught. In a Bible or Quran marking letters of the seed could be a possible solution for one who isn't able to memorize the seed.

Memorizing seed would be the much-preferred way to be safe than writing it on paper. Checkpoints and border patrols are very curious about what you have in your belongings upon crossing. If they find anything of value like a hardware wallet that is something to keep. If it's a piece of paper, they will likely confiscate it and keep it for a while, complaining to get it back will make them more curious as to what's in it.

Bitcoin is always good option. It is above everything, and a better choice. The only thing is that you will be afraid of the fact that the value is volatile, but it’s definitely a better choice than most of the other assets that you would find out there. As long as you’re holding your Bitcoin in a noncustodial wallet where you are fully in control of your wallet, then you’re good to go.

In a situation like this, I think it would be good to hide your wallet though, because someone (a law enforcement agent) who knows about cryptocurrency might check your phone to see the wallet, and we don’t know if they can confiscate it too. So the best option is that if you’re crossing the border, you can just save your private keys and uninstall the wallet. You can install later once you have crossed.

I didn't know that there's a law that's existing in such. But those refugees that are wise would certainly keep their wealth in the form of bitcoin for which they won't be able to be noticed that they've been carrying large amount of money from border to border.
Just like what has been said on how to keep its phrases, there could also be other means of keeping it depending on their creativity but memorizing it won't work for me. 

But you just said that you can cash out Bitcoin anywhere around the world, so why then do you say later that your dream is that Bitcoin can be cashed out anywhere around the world?

Well, Bitcoin can be cashed out anywhere around the world, as long as you’re using a peer to peer. Even in countries where Bitcoin is not allowed, people has always continued to buy and sell Bitcoin by making use of decentralized/peer to peer means and they having no issues with it at all. And for countries where it is allowed, you can make use of any of those wallets that offers a MasterCard and Visa, so that you can withdraw from the ATM without stress.

What the OP @pooya87 said is very right but I believe that this is an exception for the Ukrainians at the moment because of this quote from the post.
The problem remains that in times like this (war), not everyone if not already in the crypto space will immediately realize this is the best option for them in every situation moving across the border so we will still see victims of this process.

they will always find a way how to exchange their bitcoin later on. of course, it is not safe to do that at the early stage of your stay as a refugee. but once you get acquainted with your environment, learn the ins and outs in crypto in that country, you will be more confident on how to deal with your crypto. as people are getting aware about bitcoin or crypto in general, don't display the obvious. if you are a crypto user, you have read by now how to secure your crypto assets safely and securely esp if you are going outside faced with undetermined situation. there are even threads here discussing regarding that matter.

as a start, you can read these threads about Bitcoin wallets -which, what, why? and Good topics on security and privacy
it may save your BTC in the future, who knows?

I would not suggest memorizing your seed phrase as an option if you want to recover your wallet address after crossing the border, we can memorize lots of information, but trusting your brain to store your seed phrase and remember it accurately is very risky, especially as your crossing could be delayed for whatever reason and now you have to store it for longer.

In the worst case scenario when it is impossible to pass with any thing related to bitcoin, one could take the risk of sending it through a "secure" platform which they can log in on some other device and quickly sweep the wallet. This also comes with it's fair share of risk.

That's until the authorities turn their eyes on Bitcoin. Border control could spot the most obvious methods of storing  coins, like crypto apps on phone, hardware wallets, unencrypted flash drives, but another problem is what to do with bitcoin once you are in foreign country. Exchanging btc for fiat in a foreign country in a p2p way could be risky for a refugee, who in case of Ukraine are only women and children.

In times like this, one begins to understand that world we love in is not so free. Your free will and property could be taken away from you at any point by the government and they've got legal laws to back them all up. You become left with nothing than to live with no one to fight for iou or sell it out to the government that, that which is been done to you at that moment is wrong!
That's the more reason why people need to realise that bitcoin offers more than any currency or asset can offer. Is a total control of your affairs without any one even knowing your worth, not to mention any form of interference. Bitcoin is freedom!

In urgent conditions like what is happening in ukraine today, of course ukraine citizens need an alternative to store their money in a value store that is safe enough and easy to carry anywhere like bitcoin, even though you are more focused on asylum seekers but i think it's not Unlike what is happening to the Ukrainian people today, many Ukrainians are now forced to cross the borders of other countries just to save their lives, and of course they will leave all their possessions behind .

That is one brilliant way to avoid those who take advantage of the situation. If I were a refugee, I would use a book to store the code, maybe in different pages and write down the numbers or memorize them. This somehow is hard for elderly, memorizing isn't their thing anymore. Problem is if the police are aware of crypto currencies, so writing down those back up phrases should be done in a discreet way. This war somehow made us aware that this could happen to us anytime, and we can even prepare ourselves ahead if this struct one of us. Making ahead on this matter and discussing things like these is a positivity and weapon to each of us in here, knowing what to do next.

It reminds me methods use to hide real words by codes, tattoo, origami, etc. I am a fan of the Prison Break so if someone is wise like Michael Scoffield in that film, police can not do anything.

But it is risky if a stupid guy tries to complicate wallet backup and in the end can not recover it. 

Even if you go to any country without carrying a big bag of supplies but on your mobile, you have access to sell bitcoins, that's more than enough to buy hotels, eat in restaurants, go to tourist attractions, and so on. Cashing out bitcoins anywhere is a dream that I want to come true one day. Passed airport checks, escaped local police, and nobody suspected anything. Bitcoin is just an alternative, depending on the owner. Is not it? But an alternative that can cover all our needs wherever we are if a country does allow buying and selling of Bitcoin.

The possibility of exception is just another sign of the hypocrisy and racism that exists among European regimes. We still haven't forgotten hundreds of people including children who froze to death outside their borders during the past couple of years because of their country of origin.

One of the reasons why BIP39 has this passphrase option is plausible deniability. That is when you have a seed phrase and can create a wallet from it and then put a tiny amount of bitcoin in that. Then add an extra word (the passphrase or pin or ...) to it to create a new wallet but with the same seed phrase, then put the rest of your funds there.
But it still has the same problem, if it is a physical valuable object it can be confiscated. You don't want anyone to know you even have bitcoin.

I think it is so easy to hide those 12 words in such a situation.

For example, you can just have a bunch of piece of papers and spread the seed around a few and just make some drawing and put some other words around it.

Certainly hardware wallets are not a good way to carry your money around, as they are easily recognized. One should only use it in such situations if you can use a double PIN (the hidden wallet in the second one)

Anyway, if I were a refugee I would just mix all money funds and hold them in a paper wallet. I would keep jsut a few hundred dollars in my HW. I would move them back when the situation come back to normal.

There is no doubt that it is easier to carry a $1 million worth of BTC, than the same value in gold or fiat currency (especially some worthless ones like the Venezuelan bolivar) for which you would need an Antonov-type transport plane

But I think times are starting to change when it comes to the awareness of people working at border crossings, airports, or the financial police - they are now being educated to look for just such things, words on paper or devices like hardware wallets that look like USB sticks. Of course, anyone can try to remember their backup in their head, or at least cleverly hide it (but not in luggage that gets lost easily). It is always good to remember that Bitcoin (seed&private keys) can be easily and quite imperceptibly transferred, but also lost or stolen in the moment of our carelessness.

Not just the law but you have to give money to the police on the border so that they let you pass which does mean that you won't be getting any exchange point as well. Exchanging your dollars or uah won't be any option.

But with bitcoins if you have a global card you can instantly withdraw the money in the local currency there and take it out. It honestly works amazing!

I am saying it from experience, at the same time when you consider the fact that you won't have a house, a job anymore, nothing you won't be able to do anything for the time being but you can take some time out of your schedule and apply for the signature campaigns here. Which would still pay you.

Money does not matter, I have uah plenty of them but in Romania you couldn't find any exchange point.

If your context is the current war between Russia and Ukraine, then have a look at the news below,

https://www.thelocal.dk/20220303/danish-government-likely-to-exempt-ukrainians-from-controversial-refugee-jewellery-law/

What you have suggested is definitely helpful for people who don't want to fall prey to such a demonic and inhuman legal provisions. Cryptos can certainly help here!

These days people keep asking where does bitcoin come in amidst the conflicts such as the one in Ukraine. Here is another case:
In Denmark, there is a law that allows police to forcefully take anything refugees, asylum seekers, immigrants, ... have that is worth more than ~$1k to supposedly "funds their stay". It's known as the "jewelry law".
Meanwhile bitcoin doesn't take up any space, it can be 12 words that you memorize or write down in a book spread among pages without anybody knowing what it is and can not be confiscated. All one's net-worth could be carried around like this.