PoW is not what makes Bitcoin secure

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on July 25, 2020, 01:06:53 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 24, 2020, 01:55:49 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on July 24, 2020, 04:35:10 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 24, 2020, 01:41:06 AM

Quote from: NurAzizahhh on July 23, 2020, 09:30:16 PM

So far I interpreted that what you mean is 'difficulty attacking the network' as a measure but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market, Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoin or the price of bitcoin makes the Bitcoin network safe?
Now I am really interested in understanding your context using the word 'size'.
not just functionality. This is definitely a security feature. This helps maintain the decentralized transaction recording process in the blockchain

It's not the number of people holding bitcoin. It's Bitcoins enormous hashrate. The attacker would have to hijack 51% of the hashrate and that is simply too costly as he needs the hardware and electricity to produce that 51% of the current hashrate.

In theory, some people claim that more than 51% of all hashing power is already controlled by miners from China.

It's the game theory that's securing the network. Why would they endanger their position, by being thrown out of the network, by an army of full nodes for a double-spend?

Yes this is true.

No debate? I'm disappointed.

Quote

I think this is one reason why there is an attack on Bitcoin in USA. The Trump administration doesn't like it probably because of this reason. It's not very patriotic. Bitfinex and Tether are run by a Dutch guy who lives in Hong Kong. Blockstream's British CEO Adam Back lives on Malta and the parent company AXA group is a French insurance company. So the main players with Bitcoin seem to be scattered around the globe in different tax havens. Monero however had the ASIC resistance going on. China is the only country in the world that manufactures ASIC miners, so I think the purpose there was actually to block China from becoming a majority hash contributor to Monero as well.

Who said that Bitcoin was supposed to be for the U.S PRESIDENT, and for the U.S. GOVERNMENT? The honey-badger don't care, and the Fed's Brrr printing of $6,000,000,000,000 will play a part in Bitcoin's path to 6 digits.

Nobody said that, but It's obvious that it's a globalist plan to subvert national institutions. Also from my libertarian P2P, decentralization and digital rights activist point of view it's actually not very adequate.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 24, 2020, 01:55:49 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on July 24, 2020, 04:35:10 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 24, 2020, 01:41:06 AM

Quote from: NurAzizahhh on July 23, 2020, 09:30:16 PM

So far I interpreted that what you mean is 'difficulty attacking the network' as a measure but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market, Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoin or the price of bitcoin makes the Bitcoin network safe?
Now I am really interested in understanding your context using the word 'size'.
not just functionality. This is definitely a security feature. This helps maintain the decentralized transaction recording process in the blockchain

It's not the number of people holding bitcoin. It's Bitcoins enormous hashrate. The attacker would have to hijack 51% of the hashrate and that is simply too costly as he needs the hardware and electricity to produce that 51% of the current hashrate.

In theory, some people claim that more than 51% of all hashing power is already controlled by miners from China.

It's the game theory that's securing the network. Why would they endanger their position, by being thrown out of the network, by an army of full nodes for a double-spend?

Yes this is true.

No debate? I'm disappointed.

Quote

I think this is one reason why there is an attack on Bitcoin in USA. The Trump administration doesn't like it probably because of this reason. It's not very patriotic. Bitfinex and Tether are run by a Dutch guy who lives in Hong Kong. Blockstream's British CEO Adam Back lives on Malta and the parent company AXA group is a French insurance company. So the main players with Bitcoin seem to be scattered around the globe in different tax havens. Monero however had the ASIC resistance going on. China is the only country in the world that manufactures ASIC miners, so I think the purpose there was actually to block China from becoming a majority hash contributor to Monero as well.

Who said that Bitcoin was supposed to be for the U.S PRESIDENT, and for the U.S. GOVERNMENT? The honey-badger don't care, and the Fed's Brrr printing of $6,000,000,000,000 will play a part in Bitcoin's path to 6 digits.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on July 24, 2020, 04:35:10 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 24, 2020, 01:41:06 AM

Quote from: NurAzizahhh on July 23, 2020, 09:30:16 PM

So far I interpreted that what you mean is 'difficulty attacking the network' as a measure but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market, Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoin or the price of bitcoin makes the Bitcoin network safe?
Now I am really interested in understanding your context using the word 'size'.
not just functionality. This is definitely a security feature. This helps maintain the decentralized transaction recording process in the blockchain

It's not the number of people holding bitcoin. It's Bitcoins enormous hashrate. The attacker would have to hijack 51% of the hashrate and that is simply too costly as he needs the hardware and electricity to produce that 51% of the current hashrate.

In theory, some people claim that more than 51% of all hashing power is already controlled by miners from China.

It's the game theory that's securing the network. Why would they endanger their position, by being thrown out of the network, by an army of full nodes for a double-spend?

Yes this is true. I think this is one reason why there is an attack on Bitcoin in USA. The Trump administration doesn't like it probably because of this reason. It's not very patriotic. Bitfinex and Tether are run by a Dutch guy who lives in Hong Kong. Blockstream's British CEO Adam Back lives on Malta and the parent company AXA group is a French insurance company. So the main players with Bitcoin seem to be scattered around the globe in different tax havens. Monero however had the ASIC resistance going on. China is the only country in the world that manufactures ASIC miners, so I think the purpose there was actually to block China from becoming a majority hash contributor to Monero as well.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: aundroid on July 24, 2020, 03:51:13 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 23, 2020, 10:28:28 AM

Let me help you. A mining pool is not same as a miner merger. Pools are not static. It's still decentralized anonymous. The pools do not control the miners and the hashrate the miners control it and Moneros miners are independent anonymous people and not merged as a corporation with CEO like Blockstream.

Of course there is a difference between pool centralization and hardware centralization.
But although the pools don't control the hardware, they do control the hashrate. (until the miners switch to a different pool)
What you can clearly see with Monero is pool centralization, new miners apparently tend to join the largest pool.
Hardware centralization is a different problem.

Yes, Bitcoin is hardware centralized with most miners being governed by Blockstream corporation. In Monero any miner is free to switch pool at any time or start their own pool. Pools have really nothing to do with centralization. Pools do not control or govern anything. They are just pools. Centralization means to be placed under one central governance. So as long as there is two pools and people are free to switch, there is no centralization going on there. The larger the pool the smaller fees it has, that's why people join large pools.

jpnl0006

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Quote from: JeromeTash on July 20, 2020, 05:58:19 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it. But also because of Bitcoins size and because it doesn't really scale, it's very slow. Also Proof-of-Work algorithm is still very susceptible to the 51% attack.

So what's you point here Huh

If the Bitcoin network is large, shouldn't that be good news?
What's the point of decentralization then?
I don't see any point you are trying to make here except shill a less popular Monero. If you wanna discuss Monero, head over to the altcoins discussion board.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

Monero is basically everything Bitcoin promised to be.

What did bitcoin promise to be?

Exactly my point. i couldn't pick out the exact point. reading the topic and checking out what was said. to summarise, bitcoin is the realm deal whether or not there is 51% attack or not, Bitcoin still remains the First mover of the blockchain technology and also the Secured network i know about.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 24, 2020, 01:41:06 AM

Quote from: NurAzizahhh on July 23, 2020, 09:30:16 PM

So far I interpreted that what you mean is 'difficulty attacking the network' as a measure but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market, Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoin or the price of bitcoin makes the Bitcoin network safe?
Now I am really interested in understanding your context using the word 'size'.
not just functionality. This is definitely a security feature. This helps maintain the decentralized transaction recording process in the blockchain

It's not the number of people holding bitcoin. It's Bitcoins enormous hashrate. The attacker would have to hijack 51% of the hashrate and that is simply too costly as he needs the hardware and electricity to produce that 51% of the current hashrate.

In theory, some people claim that more than 51% of all hashing power is already controlled by miners from China.

It's the game theory that's securing the network. Why would they endanger their position, by being thrown out of the network, by an army of full nodes for a double-spend?

aundroid

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 23, 2020, 10:28:28 AM

Let me help you. A mining pool is not same as a miner merger. Pools are not static. It's still decentralized anonymous. The pools do not control the miners and the hashrate the miners control it and Moneros miners are independent anonymous people and not merged as a corporation with CEO like Blockstream.

Of course there is a difference between pool centralization and hardware centralization.
But although the pools don't control the hardware, they do control the hashrate. (until the miners switch to a different pool)
What you can clearly see with Monero is pool centralization, new miners apparently tend to join the largest pool.
Hardware centralization is a different problem.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: NurAzizahhh on July 23, 2020, 09:30:16 PM

So far I interpreted that what you mean is 'difficulty attacking the network' as a measure but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market, Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoin or the price of bitcoin makes the Bitcoin network safe?
Now I am really interested in understanding your context using the word 'size'.
not just functionality. This is definitely a security feature. This helps maintain the decentralized transaction recording process in the blockchain

It's not the number of people holding bitcoin. It's Bitcoins enormous hashrate. The attacker would have to hijack 51% of the hashrate and that is simply too costly as he needs the hardware and electricity to produce that 51% of the current hashrate.

NurAzizahhh

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So far I interpreted that what you mean is 'difficulty attacking the network' as a measure but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market, Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoin or the price of bitcoin makes the Bitcoin network safe?
Now I am really interested in understanding your context using the word 'size'.
not just functionality. This is definitely a security feature. This helps maintain the decentralized transaction recording process in the blockchain

FreeStreamer

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Activity: 70

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Quote from: aundroid on July 23, 2020, 04:30:40 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 23, 2020, 03:37:33 AM

Monero is also large enough and on top of that it's a decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash. Bitcoin is not. Bitcoin has not been consistent with Satoshis original vision since 2014 when Blockstream corporation was formed by Bitcoin miners.

Sorry but in the Monero network the two largest mining pools control 67% of the total Hashrate.

source

How is that more decentralized than Bitcoin?

Again: I have nothing against Monero, I just don't understand what you are trying to achieve here.

Let me help you. A mining pool is not same as a miner merger. Pools are not static. It's still decentralized anonymous. The pools do not control the miners and the hashrate the miners control it and Moneros miners are independent anonymous people and not merged as a corporation with CEO like Blockstream.

aundroid

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 23, 2020, 03:37:33 AM

Monero is also large enough and on top of that it's a decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash. Bitcoin is not. Bitcoin has not been consistent with Satoshis original vision since 2014 when Blockstream corporation was formed by Bitcoin miners.

Sorry but in the Monero network the two largest mining pools control 67% of the total Hashrate.

source

How is that more decentralized than Bitcoin?

Again: I have nothing against Monero, I just don't understand what you are trying to achieve here.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: aundroid on July 22, 2020, 03:41:29 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 02:34:50 PM

I mean size measured in hashrate. You see 51% attack means hijacking the majority of the networks hashrate and gaining control of the network that way. The hardware and electricity needed to perform this has to match 51% of the networks hashrate. So you would have to buy like a 100 000 ASIC miners that would consume a crazy amount of electricity just to perform the attack for one hour.

Well, that is exactly what I told you on the first page.

Quote from: aundroid on July 21, 2020, 04:20:34 PM

You might also want to look at sites like https://www.crypto51.app/ or https://www.exaking.com/51 to have a look at the theoretical costs of a 51% attack.
Bitcoin: between $400,000 and $550,000 an hour. (no idea which side delivers the more exact value)
Monero: $21,000 per hour

I still don't understand what you are trying to tell us with this thread?
You simply told us that PoW chains are vulnerable to 51% attacks and then you pointed to Monero, which is also PoW. Wink

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 02:02:04 AM

Yes. I am saying that only large enough PoW blockchains are technically resistant to the 51% attack.

Then maybe you should take a closer look into Bitcoin. Cheesy

Monero is also large enough and on top of that it's a decentralized peer-to-peer digital cash. Bitcoin is not. Bitcoin has not been consistent with Satoshis original vision since 2014 when Blockstream corporation was formed by Bitcoin miners.

aundroid

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 02:34:50 PM

I mean size measured in hashrate. You see 51% attack means hijacking the majority of the networks hashrate and gaining control of the network that way. The hardware and electricity needed to perform this has to match 51% of the networks hashrate. So you would have to buy like a 100 000 ASIC miners that would consume a crazy amount of electricity just to perform the attack for one hour.

Well, that is exactly what I told you on the first page.

Quote from: aundroid on July 21, 2020, 04:20:34 PM

You might also want to look at sites like https://www.crypto51.app/ or https://www.exaking.com/51 to have a look at the theoretical costs of a 51% attack.
Bitcoin: between $400,000 and $550,000 an hour. (no idea which side delivers the more exact value)
Monero: $21,000 per hour

I still don't understand what you are trying to tell us with this thread?
You simply told us that PoW chains are vulnerable to 51% attacks and then you pointed to Monero, which is also PoW. Wink

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 02:02:04 AM

Yes. I am saying that only large enough PoW blockchains are technically resistant to the 51% attack.

Then maybe you should take a closer look into Bitcoin. Cheesy

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: franky1 on July 22, 2020, 01:29:05 PM

Quote from: Wind_FURY on July 22, 2020, 01:49:39 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on July 21, 2020, 11:17:20 PM

Quote from: franky1 on July 21, 2020, 09:18:44 PM

i know the OP is just trying to promote a crappy proof of stake coin

i guess you didn't read the entire post. OP is comparing bitcoin with monero and last time i checked monero is using RandomX algorithm which is a proof of work type of algorithm. his arguments don't have much to do with PoW either, he is mostly focusing on anonymity which he refers to as "privacy"!

He read it, but franky1 is a gaslighter. I believe he thinks that he can gaslight lurking newbies to be tricked into believing that Monero is POS.

OP, you never replied. Full nodes secure Bitcoin.

i guess you didnt read the OP's post history.
he loves monero and other altcoins of different 'proofs'. which is a typical mindset of the PoS stake crowd try to imply bad things about PoW , which they dont understand.. just so they can advertise their favourite alt.

he isnt limiting his admiration of altcoins to just being monero
so you might want to realise that his sentiment and context is of the tradition PoS tactic to then advertise their favourite alt.

so while you lot try to grammar check if i said W or S or B at the end of Po' your missing the point
he doesnt understand bitcoin or how the PoW gives bitcoin underlying value. his main game is to advertise his favourite altcoin

but hey. seems its the grammar NAZI's that had more reference to lighting gas

Why don't you read them little bit better before you start your slandering and smearing campaigns people with honorable intentions who just want to have an intellectual open minded conversation. I don't think it's a sacrilege to discuss new alternative proof algorithm. Personally I think they will take over because they actually produce value. Not only a self serving simple network functionality like Bitcoins ledger. Have a topic which says PoS is a scam.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: webtricks on July 22, 2020, 09:55:22 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 09:39:09 AM

Quote from: webtricks on July 22, 2020, 08:54:09 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it.

You are contradicting yourself. At one side you are saying that Proof-of-Work doesn't make Bitcoin secure. While on the other side you are saying, size of Bitcoin network make it resilient to 51% attack. So why do you think Bitcoin's size is big enough to resist 51% attack? Simple! That's because of Proof-of-Work algorithm!

Due to the huge number of miners over years, mining difficulty has reached to a very very high level. Now to mine block, miner has to use very high computing power in order to find the hash. So it's enormously costly for anyone to first manipulate existing block and then mine more on top of that to broadcast longest valid chain on network. So in short, PoW algorithm is the only thing making sure Bitcoin's blockchain is not getting easily manipulated.

I am not contradicting. It's not large because of Proof-of-Work algorithm. It's large because of the major pumps and hype that occurred 2017-2018. Proof-of-Work algorithm validates the transactions without the need of a trusted 3rd party. It's not a network security feature. It's the networks functionality. it's the only thing that Bitcoin actually does, which is not that special and it does not make Bitcoin a magical money making machine.

Now I am really interested in understanding your context of using the word 'size'. So far I was interpreting that you meant 'the difficulty of attacking network' as the size but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market and holders as the 'size'. Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoins or the price of bitcoin make the Bitcoin network secure?

Also, PoW is not just functionality. It is surely a security feature. It helps in keeping the process of recording transactions in blockchain decentralized as well as save Bitcoin Network from attack.

I mean size measured in hashrate. You see 51% attack means hijacking the majority of the networks hashrate and gaining control of the network that way. The hardware and electricity needed to perform this has to match 51% of the networks hashrate. So you would have to buy like a 100 000 ASIC miners that would consume a crazy amount of electricity just to perform the attack for one hour.

franky1

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on July 22, 2020, 01:49:39 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on July 21, 2020, 11:17:20 PM

Quote from: franky1 on July 21, 2020, 09:18:44 PM

i know the OP is just trying to promote a crappy proof of stake coin

i guess you didn't read the entire post. OP is comparing bitcoin with monero and last time i checked monero is using RandomX algorithm which is a proof of work type of algorithm. his arguments don't have much to do with PoW either, he is mostly focusing on anonymity which he refers to as "privacy"!

He read it, but franky1 is a gaslighter. I believe he thinks that he can gaslight lurking newbies to be tricked into believing that Monero is POS.

OP, you never replied. Full nodes secure Bitcoin.

i guess you didnt read the OP's post history.
he loves monero and other altcoins of different 'proofs'. which is a typical mindset of the PoS stake crowd try to imply bad things about PoW , which they dont understand.. just so they can advertise their favourite alt.

he isnt limiting his admiration of altcoins to just being monero
so you might want to realise that his sentiment and context is of the tradition PoS tactic to then advertise their favourite alt.

so while you lot try to grammar check if i said W or S or B at the end of Po' your missing the point
he doesnt understand bitcoin or how the PoW gives bitcoin underlying value. his main game is to advertise his favourite altcoin

but hey. seems its the grammar NAZI's that had more reference to lighting gas

webtricks

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 09:39:09 AM

Quote from: webtricks on July 22, 2020, 08:54:09 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it.

You are contradicting yourself. At one side you are saying that Proof-of-Work doesn't make Bitcoin secure. While on the other side you are saying, size of Bitcoin network make it resilient to 51% attack. So why do you think Bitcoin's size is big enough to resist 51% attack? Simple! That's because of Proof-of-Work algorithm!

Due to the huge number of miners over years, mining difficulty has reached to a very very high level. Now to mine block, miner has to use very high computing power in order to find the hash. So it's enormously costly for anyone to first manipulate existing block and then mine more on top of that to broadcast longest valid chain on network. So in short, PoW algorithm is the only thing making sure Bitcoin's blockchain is not getting easily manipulated.

I am not contradicting. It's not large because of Proof-of-Work algorithm. It's large because of the major pumps and hype that occurred 2017-2018. Proof-of-Work algorithm validates the transactions without the need of a trusted 3rd party. It's not a network security feature. It's the networks functionality. it's the only thing that Bitcoin actually does, which is not that special and it does not make Bitcoin a magical money making machine.

Now I am really interested in understanding your context of using the word 'size'. So far I was interpreting that you meant 'the difficulty of attacking network' as the size but after this post I think you are referring to the Bitcoin market and holders as the 'size'. Can you explain how the number of people holding bitcoins or the price of bitcoin make the Bitcoin network secure?

Also, PoW is not just functionality. It is surely a security feature. It helps in keeping the process of recording transactions in blockchain decentralized as well as save Bitcoin Network from attack.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: webtricks on July 22, 2020, 08:54:09 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it.

You are contradicting yourself. At one side you are saying that Proof-of-Work doesn't make Bitcoin secure. While on the other side you are saying, size of Bitcoin network make it resilient to 51% attack. So why do you think Bitcoin's size is big enough to resist 51% attack? Simple! That's because of Proof-of-Work algorithm!

Due to the huge number of miners over years, mining difficulty has reached to a very very high level. Now to mine block, miner has to use very high computing power in order to find the hash. So it's enormously costly for anyone to first manipulate existing block and then mine more on top of that to broadcast longest valid chain on network. So in short, PoW algorithm is the only thing making sure Bitcoin's blockchain is not getting easily manipulated.

I am not contradicting. It's not large because of Proof-of-Work algorithm. It's large because of the major pumps and hype that occurred 2017-2018. Proof-of-Work algorithm validates the transactions without the need of a trusted 3rd party. It's not a network security feature. It's the networks functionality. it's the only thing that Bitcoin actually does, which is not that special and it does not make Bitcoin a magical money making machine.

webtricks

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it.

You are contradicting yourself. At one side you are saying that Proof-of-Work doesn't make Bitcoin secure. While on the other side you are saying, size of Bitcoin network make it resilient to 51% attack. So why do you think Bitcoin's size is big enough to resist 51% attack? Simple! That's because of Proof-of-Work algorithm!

Due to the huge number of miners over years, mining difficulty has reached to a very very high level. Now to mine block, miner has to use very high computing power in order to find the hash. So it's enormously costly for anyone to first manipulate existing block and then mine more on top of that to broadcast longest valid chain on network. So in short, PoW algorithm is the only thing making sure Bitcoin's blockchain is not getting easily manipulated.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: MarioV on July 22, 2020, 04:07:45 AM

So what makes bitcoin resistant to double spending? Isn't that computational and expensive (Po)Work that protects his ledger from breaking?

Yes, the PoW algorithm makes it resistant to double spending. This is what makes it not rely on any 3rd party as a trusted validator. That's basically the only thing that Bitcoin actually does. It's not that special and It's not a magic money machine that creates value out of thin air.

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Bitcoin should be least secure cryptocurrency since another cryptocurrency have far bigger block size limit Tongue

--snip--

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 21, 2020, 10:55:04 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Bitcoin should be least secure cryptocurrency since another cryptocurrency have far bigger block size limit Tongue

--snip--

Monero has a dynamic blocksize. This eliminates the need for miners to merge into a centralized mining union.

Image source : https://twitter.com/ryanthalion_/status/744601806114742272

Quote from: pixie85 on July 21, 2020, 05:19:08 PM

Are you some kind of Monero shill op?

He pretend to be shill, but what he actually do is destroying Monero community reputation (whether it's intentional or not).

Haha. Yeah Monero community is dark web crypto. We don't need your normie reputation anyway

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So what makes bitcoin resistant to double spending? Isn't that computational and expensive (Po)Work that protects his ledger from breaking?

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: pooya87 on July 22, 2020, 01:50:23 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 12:28:42 AM

Bitcoin was indeed meant to be anonymous because cash is anonymous, but as a prototype it's insufficient in these features too. It can't be "cash" if it's not anonymous like cash. That's the whole point and concern with "digital cash"

no it did not. bitcoin's main focus has been decentralization and censorship resistance. it also offers you the chance to remain anonymous by making some effort which is more of privacy rather than anonimity but it is not the default setting and it was never promised.
and anonymity has never been the "whole point and concern" ever.

If not, so why doesn't the wallet contain a field for all your personal data?

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Quote from: pooya87 on July 21, 2020, 11:17:20 PM

Quote from: franky1 on July 21, 2020, 09:18:44 PM

i know the OP is just trying to promote a crappy proof of stake coin

i guess you didn't read the entire post. OP is comparing bitcoin with monero and last time i checked monero is using RandomX algorithm which is a proof of work type of algorithm. his arguments don't have much to do with PoW either, he is mostly focusing on anonymity which he refers to as "privacy"!

Yes. I am saying that only large enough PoW blockchains are technically resistant to the 51% attack.

pooya87

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 22, 2020, 12:28:42 AM

Bitcoin was indeed meant to be anonymous because cash is anonymous, but as a prototype it's insufficient in these features too. It can't be "cash" if it's not anonymous like cash. That's the whole point and concern with "digital cash"

no it did not. bitcoin's main focus has been decentralization and censorship resistance. it also offers you the chance to remain anonymous by making some effort which is more of privacy rather than anonimity but it is not the default setting and it was never promised.
and anonymity has never been the "whole point and concern" ever.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: pooya87 on July 21, 2020, 11:17:20 PM

Quote from: franky1 on July 21, 2020, 09:18:44 PM

i know the OP is just trying to promote a crappy proof of stake coin

i guess you didn't read the entire post. OP is comparing bitcoin with monero and last time i checked monero is using RandomX algorithm which is a proof of work type of algorithm. his arguments don't have much to do with PoW either, he is mostly focusing on anonymity which he refers to as "privacy"!

He read it, but franky1 is a gaslighter. I believe he thinks that he can gaslight lurking newbies to be tricked into believing that Monero is POS.

OP, you never replied. Full nodes secure Bitcoin.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: pixie85 on July 21, 2020, 05:19:08 PM

Are you some kind of Monero shill op?

Monero is not what Bitcoin was meant to be. Bitcoin was not made to be anonymous. Monero is fine, I have nothing against it but it's different than Bitcoin and may face its own problems like being banned from all regulated exchanges at some point.

Monero is on a path to becoming the coin of the deep web.

A shill is someone who gets paid to participate in a swindle. So "shill" and "fine" do not really make sense in the same argument. Bitcoin was indeed meant to be anonymous because cash is anonymous, but as a prototype it's insufficient in these features too. It can't be "cash" if it's not anonymous like cash. That's the whole point and concern with "digital cash". Dark web crypto is just bullshit propaganda. There is no such thing as "evil money and good money". All money is both good and evil, depending how you use it.

pooya87

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Quote from: franky1 on July 21, 2020, 09:18:44 PM

i know the OP is just trying to promote a crappy proof of stake coin

i guess you didn't read the entire post. OP is comparing bitcoin with monero and last time i checked monero is using RandomX algorithm which is a proof of work type of algorithm. his arguments don't have much to do with PoW either, he is mostly focusing on anonymity which he refers to as "privacy"!

franky1

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i know the OP is just trying to promote a crappy proof of stake coin
but anyone can code out the proof of stake and make the next update of them crap coins only want a signature from one source.
yet requiring a block to have a hash thats difficulty is X amount of computations complex. is harder to code out of the system

also its this cost of computing this hash that gives bitcoin an underlying bitcoin cost of creation(mining)
where as all proof of stake needs is to prove they have a shiny pen to sign. and they just keep using that shiny pen to sign. and when they get bored they can sell the pen.

if i was mining gold id prefer gold to need excavators and sluice machines and lots of diesel to extract gold.
gold would be stupidly cheap and worthless if people could earn it with just a pen
PoS has no underlying value/cost holding it up

pixie85

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Are you some kind of Monero shill op?

Monero is not what Bitcoin was meant to be. Bitcoin was not made to be anonymous. Monero is fine, I have nothing against it but it's different than Bitcoin and may face its own problems like being banned from all regulated exchanges at some point.

Monero is on a path to becoming the coin of the deep web.

sakurro

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it. But also because of Bitcoins size and because it doesn't really scale, it's very slow. Also Proof-of-Work algorithm is still very susceptible to the 51% attack. I encourage to look into Monero. Monero is basically everything Bitcoin promised to be.

Bitcoin is the only true decentralized currency. If even the blockchain of Ethereum, the second-largest currency, can be reverted by its development team (which has happened before), it is out of question that any other coin matches the security of bitcoin.
All other coins can effectively be reverted or modified by a small group of people.

This is impossible for bitcoin because it is extremely expensive to attack. To me, that's a good thing.

aundroid

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it. But also because of Bitcoins size and because it doesn't really scale, it's very slow. Also Proof-of-Work algorithm is still very susceptible to the 51% attack. I encourage to look into Monero. Monero is basically everything Bitcoin promised to be.

You might also want to look at sites like https://www.crypto51.app/ or https://www.exaking.com/51 to have a look at the theoretical costs of a 51% attack.
Bitcoin: between $400,000 and $550,000 an hour. (no idea which side delivers the more exact value)
Monero: $21,000 per hour

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: BrewMaster on July 21, 2020, 11:17:22 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 21, 2020, 06:55:30 AM

Well Bitcoin is a privacy coin, but people don't perceive it as such because it's not private. Yeah they rigged all the exchanges with KYC and this basically compromises the privacy of the entire community.

bitcoin offers privacy and that means you don't have to sign up with anyone or anywhere or give up your identity or fill out KYC to use it. it is free of all that.
now if you choose to go to some centralized place and they ask you for your KYC to use their services you can't blame that on bitcoin!

and you seem to be here to talk about monero despite what your title says. well since you mention it you also give KYC while you sign up on exchanges to trade monero

Not on Local Monero. See you got to know how to work this space if you want to remain anonymous. You can enter crypto with Monero here. https://localmonero.co/

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There is trouble abrewing

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 21, 2020, 06:55:30 AM

Well Bitcoin is a privacy coin, but people don't perceive it as such because it's not private. Yeah they rigged all the exchanges with KYC and this basically compromises the privacy of the entire community.

bitcoin offers privacy and that means you don't have to sign up with anyone or anywhere or give up your identity or fill out KYC to use it. it is free of all that.
now if you choose to go to some centralized place and they ask you for your KYC to use their services you can't blame that on bitcoin!

and you seem to be here to talk about monero despite what your title says. well since you mention it you also give KYC while you sign up on exchanges to trade monero

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: davis196 on July 21, 2020, 06:58:29 AM

OP has several posts on the forum basically writing the same thing:
"Bitcoin has flaws,Monero is perfect.Dump Bitcoin,buy Monero."
OP,you don't have to hide your agenda behind reasons and logic.It's pretty obvious that you are FUDing against Bitcoin and promoting Monero all the time.It's alright to have an opinion,but trying to convince people that your opinion is the the one and only unquestionable truth is a completely different thing.
If Monero was so perfect,then why the Monero price isn't 9K USD?I can tell you why.Because many crypto exchanges removed Monero because it's a privacy coin and the crypto exchanges might have problems with the authorities.
I won't discuss the topic about PoW,because it was already discussed 100 times before.

My agenda is not FUD. My agenda is reason and education. I think rarely or almost never a first attempt to do something is the best. In innovation the first attempt is called a prototype.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on July 21, 2020, 07:22:00 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size.

And what is, in your logic, the size of a Bitcoin, I wonder?
Monero is a good coin and has a smart team. Mindless shilling is not on their agenda. What you do is not helping Monero, instead it's bad advertising.
Read more and please stop this kind of posting.

Right. It's a fact. An other fact is that Monero does not need you. In 51% attack the attacker hijacks 51% of the hashrate and gains control of the network this way. So to hijack 51% of the hashrate you need the hardware and electricity to produce 51% of the hashrate

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Bitcoin should be least secure cryptocurrency since another cryptocurrency have far bigger block size limit Tongue

Image source : https://twitter.com/ryanthalion_/status/744601806114742272

Monero has a dynamic blocksize. This eliminates the need for miners to merge into a centralized mining union.

NeuroticFish

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Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size.

And what is, in your logic, the size of a Bitcoin, I wonder?
Monero is a good coin and has a smart team. Mindless shilling is not on their agenda. What you do is not helping Monero, instead it's bad advertising.
Read more and please stop this kind of posting.

davis196

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OP has several posts on the forum basically writing the same thing:
"Bitcoin has flaws,Monero is perfect.Dump Bitcoin,buy Monero."
OP,you don't have to hide your agenda behind reasons and logic.It's pretty obvious that you are FUDing against Bitcoin and promoting Monero all the time.It's alright to have an opinion,but trying to convince people that your opinion is the the one and only unquestionable truth is a completely different thing.
If Monero was so perfect,then why the Monero price isn't 9K USD?I can tell you why.Because many crypto exchanges removed Monero because it's a privacy coin and the crypto exchanges might have problems with the authorities.
I won't discuss the topic about PoW,because it was already discussed 100 times before.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Maus0728 on July 21, 2020, 02:39:29 AM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 11:48:01 PM

Bitcoin promised to be a decentralized Peer-to-Peer digital cash and a privacy coin

Hmm..I can't remember bitcoin promised that he is a "privacy coin". bitcoin is still in its infancy where the optimum privacy can't still be achieved because of its existing structure where the 3 main cryptographic technique that monero is using such as "stealth address", "ring transaction" and "ring signature" is not fit for bitcoin.

The only thing that bitcoin could achieve at least an increase of privacy is the implementation of schnorr and taproot signature, educating ourselves on how to achieve optimum privacy using different wallet and as much as possible, avoiding KYC.

Well Bitcoin is a privacy coin, but people don't perceive it as such because it's not private. Yeah they rigged all the exchanges with KYC and this basically compromises the privacy of the entire community.

Maus0728

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Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 11:48:01 PM

Bitcoin promised to be a decentralized Peer-to-Peer digital cash and a privacy coin

Hmm..I can't remember bitcoin promised that he is a "privacy coin". bitcoin is still in its infancy where the optimum privacy can't still be achieved because of its existing structure where the 3 main cryptographic technique that monero is using such as "stealth address", "ring transaction" and "ring signature" is not fit for bitcoin.

The only thing that bitcoin could achieve at least an increase of privacy is the implementation of schnorr and taproot signature, educating ourselves on how to achieve optimum privacy using different wallet and as much as possible, avoiding KYC.

pooya87

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security of a cryptocurrency like bitcoin is not defined by only one tiny factor such as the mining algorithm, and 51% attack is only one of many attacks that can take place against a cryptocurrency. it is the result of many different factors that come together and make the final product secure or insecure. some factors off the top of my head are the hash algorithm used, the asymmetric cryptography used, script language and OP codes, and the implementation of all these, number of full nodes and their distribution, number of miners and their distribution,...

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Jating on July 20, 2020, 06:03:04 PM

All I can say is this... Grin

Feed them more than they can eat in my opinion. It's our opportunity to start a debate, and let the newbies/plebs like us to know the debates/thoughts/insights from ALL sides.

OP, full nodes secure Bitcoin.

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: JeromeTash on July 20, 2020, 05:58:19 PM

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it. But also because of Bitcoins size and because it doesn't really scale, it's very slow. Also Proof-of-Work algorithm is still very susceptible to the 51% attack.

So what's you point here Huh

If the Bitcoin network is large, shouldn't that be good news?
What's the point of decentralization then?
I don't see any point you are trying to make here except shill a less popular Monero. If you wanna discuss Monero, head over to the altcoins discussion board.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

Monero is basically everything Bitcoin promised to be.

What did bitcoin promise to be?

Bitcoin promised to be a decentralized Peer-to-Peer digital cash and a privacy coin

FreeStreamer

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Quote from: Jating on July 20, 2020, 06:03:04 PM

All I can say is this... Grin

All you can say? You must be very smart. I admit I am trying to arouse discussion. Is that what trolling is?

Jating

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All I can say is this... Grin

JeromeTash

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Heisenberg

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it. But also because of Bitcoins size and because it doesn't really scale, it's very slow. Also Proof-of-Work algorithm is still very susceptible to the 51% attack.

So what's you point here Huh

If the Bitcoin network is large, shouldn't that be good news?
What's the point of decentralization then?
I don't see any point you are trying to make here except shill a less popular Monero. If you wanna discuss Monero, head over to the altcoins discussion board.

Quote from: FreeStreamer on July 20, 2020, 04:23:53 PM

Monero is basically everything Bitcoin promised to be.

What did bitcoin promise to be?

FreeStreamer

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I had many comments saying that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is what makes Bitcoin secure and resist the 51% attack. This is not true. What makes Bitcoin practically resilient to the 51% attack is its size. Because of Bitcoins size it's extremely expensive to perform this attack and therefore nobody will likely do it. But also because of Bitcoins size and because it doesn't really scale, it's very slow. Also Proof-of-Work algorithm is still very susceptible to the 51% attack. I encourage to look into Monero. Monero is basically everything Bitcoin promised to be.

Topic: PoW is not what makes Bitcoin secure (Read 616 times)