PPS+ or PPLNS for short time mining (6-12h a day).

kano

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Quote from: philipma1957 on July 03, 2021, 07:02:32 PM

...
It needs to be big enough to hit 10 blocks a day minimum to offer okay proctection. against variance

a large pplns could have a bad week. and getting 0.003 a day for a week in a row can happen

you would be down 0.021 and the pool shuts down

So pool folding and you getting a big loss the risk is worse with pplns.

Frankly a large pps and or a large pplns folding has not happened in a long time.
...

Alas, you missed the fact that a PPLNS pool wont fold simply because of variance.

A PPS pool is affected by variance, not the miners, the owners of the pool.
Since the owners must pay that variance to keep a smooth lower reward for the miners, their wallet must always be big enough to cover paying the down turns.
So a PPS pool may well fold due to expected mining variance.

I'd guess that the most recent example of this would be NovaBlock, however a large pool bought them out so hopefully no miners lost out.

A PPLNS pool is affected by variance, yes the miners, not the owners of the pool.
So the owners wont go broke, and the miners wont go broke either, they will simply have a down turn in rewards, just like they have up turns in rewards also.
No one is forking out of their BTC wallet: the value of the down turn, the miners will expect over time to level out, as said, they have ups and downs.
The size of the pool will decide how long this is, but even over 250 blocks this should be pretty minimal.

During a 5% drop in luck for a PPLNS pool, everyone mining is receiving a 5% lower reward.

During a 5% drop in luck for a PPS pool, the pool is paying everyone that 5% difference.
This is why it matters if the pool has a large enough wallet, and can keep that wallet balance large enough,
... and it is not a small amount of BTC.

philipma1957

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pps+ is low risk if you mine enough daily.

Viabtc pays at

0.001
0.010
0.100
1.000

your choice.

If you mine 0.006 a day and set your gear to

0.001 you get paid every single day

and risk a max loss of 0.006 well maybe 0.012 if the pool shuts down.

very few pplns will protect you as well if you mine

0.006 a day.

It needs to be big enough to hit 10 blocks a day minimum to offer okay proctection. against variance

a large pplns could have a bad week. and getting 0.003 a day for a week in a row can happen

you would be down 0.021 and the pool shuts down

So pool folding and you getting a big loss the risk is worse with pplns.

Frankly a large pps and or a large pplns folding has not happened in a long time.

I do pps because I mine

btc
eth
ltc/doge

I ONLY WANT BTC so if i earn

0.006 btc
0.020 eth
0.300 ltc
60.00 doge

on viabtc tonight and do this night after night I can plan how to

Stack the btc and spend the other coins.

I know how many of each coin is coming and when a coin does well against btc I trademit for btc right on the site.

if it did not do well against btc i sell it for usdt

so my btc always grows since i always mine some and some time i convert from the other coins or get cash from them.

it is nice and easy to plan.
it grows btc faster.
i get cash for alt coins.

kano

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Quote from: mikeywith on June 26, 2021, 06:28:54 PM

Quote from: kano on June 26, 2021, 08:47:57 AM

PPLNS in general is not a 'risk' as you claim.
PPLNS has higher variance than PPS because the PPS pool pays the variance

These two statements contradict each other because variance is a risk unless it's measured against infinity, your theory is only valid if I could mine to infinity, at which, even solo mining would yield the same results, but we know that:

Highlighted my point.
It is not a contradiction, it would appear to just be your misunderstanding.
... and you left out the point that explains that:

Quote from: mikeywith on June 26, 2021, 06:28:54 PM

1- The mining gear will die
2- The mining pool might close
3- The profitability drops and miners are forced to shut down.

And probably a few more hundreds of things that could wrong.

So you are listing a bunch of 'not in general' situations.

I can do that for PPS also similar to yours above:
1) The pool owners could disappear (has happened)
2) The pool owners could have ignored the wallet balance required for running a PPS pool and miss payments until they shut down (has happened)
3) The PPS pool could shut down due to losing too much money caused by a true 2.5% fee that gives a high expectation of going bankrupt.

But you missed pointing out the 'few more hundreds' of others ... that I'm sure there are not a 'few more hundreds' of others

-

PPLNS with a low N and similar block time is expected better return than PPS.
... and not a high risk compared to PPS.

My pool is small, and is a risk due to block time ... and again I have already pointed out:

Quote from: kano on June 22, 2021, 07:36:14 AM

While at the moment due to the small size of my pool, it indeed is not paying anything for 11 months without a block and certainly less than PPS.

Which you seem to keep repeating about small pools that I have already stated that pretty clearly before your comment.

DaveF

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Quote from: mikeywith on June 26, 2021, 06:28:54 PM

Quote from: kano on June 26, 2021, 08:47:57 AM

PPLNS in general is not a 'risk' as you claim.
PPLNS has higher variance than PPS because the PPS pool pays the variance

These two statements contradict each other because variance is a risk unless it's measured against infinity, your theory is only valid if I could mine to infinity, at which, even solo mining would yield the same results, but we know that:

1- The mining gear will die
2- The mining pool might close
3- The profitability drops and miners are forced to shut down.

And probably a few more hundreds of things that could wrong.

IF (that's a big IF) a pool has enough hashrate which in theory is capable of reducing the variance close to zero, then ya, other than that, it still is a risk, the risk with smaller pools is even greater, the mining gear might die before earning a single sat, whereby mining to a small PPS pool with no variance you are guaranteed to make a profit unless that pool is broke due to lack of funds, but then you only lose 24 hours (or whatever the payout threshold is) of mining, whereby in PPLNS pools you can lose anything from 1 day to 11 months and your gear might very well break before the pool hit a block, if that does not qualify as "risk" to you then I can't convince you otherwise.

You are not guaranteed to make a profit mining with PPS, you are guaranteed to earn some BTC.
A small but important distinction. :-)

Also, the other thing with PPS is there is no penalty to leave. You stop mining BTC to go mine some alt because it's having a run up in price you don't have to worry about ramp up or ramp down time. Of is the PPLNS pool is shrinking and hitting blocks, or any other reason. You stop mining at one pool you just stop earning at that point and go somewhere else.

And as I said before, every persons situation is different, what works for you and me may or may not work for someone else.

Side note: you should never be mining at a small PPLNS pool around having time. In a few years going from a percentage BTC6.25 reward to a percentage of BTC3.125 because the pool did not hit a block will not be fun.

-Dave

mikeywith

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Quote from: kano on June 26, 2021, 08:47:57 AM

PPLNS in general is not a 'risk' as you claim.
PPLNS has higher variance than PPS because the PPS pool pays the variance

These two statements contradict each other because variance is a risk unless it's measured against infinity, your theory is only valid if I could mine to infinity, at which, even solo mining would yield the same results, but we know that:

1- The mining gear will die
2- The mining pool might close
3- The profitability drops and miners are forced to shut down.

And probably a few more hundreds of things that could wrong.

IF (that's a big IF) a pool has enough hashrate which in theory is capable of reducing the variance close to zero, then ya, other than that, it still is a risk, the risk with smaller pools is even greater, the mining gear might die before earning a single sat, whereby mining to a small PPS pool with no variance you are guaranteed to make a profit unless that pool is broke due to lack of funds, but then you only lose 24 hours (or whatever the payout threshold is) of mining, whereby in PPLNS pools you can lose anything from 1 day to 11 months and your gear might very well break before the pool hit a block, if that does not qualify as "risk" to you then I can't convince you otherwise.

kano

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Quote from: mikeywith on June 22, 2021, 03:04:39 PM

At this point in time, I think PPS is the way to go, whether you are a large or a small miner, you need to go with the assumption that the pool's luck is and will be 100%, which makes the long term gains between to pools identical minus the difference in fees.

Given the competition in PPS pools, you can find solid pools with fees as low as 2.5%, the cheapest PPLNS pool would be just below 1% for small pools that hardly find a block and might never find a block from now on, the larger once will have a higher fee, but let's just say it's 1.5%, so the difference is 1% in fees, would you rather save 1% and risk losing a day or a week or even 11 months worth of mining just to save that massive 1%?

PPLNS in general is not a 'risk' as you claim.
PPLNS has higher variance than PPS because the PPS pool pays the variance, at the cost of a higher fee.
Variance doesn't mean risk, variance means ... up and down.
I do wonder how accurate that 2.5% number is though ... I'll make a thread about how to work that out soon ...

... and yes I did explicitly state above that on my small PPLNS pool you would not have done as well as PPS over the last 11 months ...

mikeywith

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be constructive or S.T.F.U

At this point in time, I think PPS is the way to go, whether you are a large or a small miner, you need to go with the assumption that the pool's luck is and will be 100%, which makes the long term gains between to pools identical minus the difference in fees.

Given the competition in PPS pools, you can find solid pools with fees as low as 2.5%, the cheapest PPLNS pool would be just below 1% for small pools that hardly find a block and might never find a block from now on, the larger once will have a higher fee, but let's just say it's 1.5%, so the difference is 1% in fees, would you rather save 1% and risk losing a day or a week or even 11 months worth of mining just to save that massive 1%?

CaneJake

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Thank you all for the help

DaveF

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Quote from: kano on June 22, 2021, 07:36:14 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 22, 2021, 06:31:38 AM

If you are not mining all day every day PPS is going to be better. You do the mining work, you get paid for it at a known rate.
Although Kano is correct in the fact that PPLNS would eventually possibly be better, it's all in theory.
...

While at the moment due to the small size of my pool, it indeed is not paying anything for 11 months without a block and certainly less than PPS.

However, while the pool was larger and getting regular blocks, our long term reward history was always better than the PPS pools, pretty much over any 12 month period.

(I guess we just need a couple of large miners to join

)

True, but for the "here and now" for someone not 24/7/365 although in the end PPLNS would probably work out better. In just about any reasonable amount of time mining PPS is going to be better.

Also, question for the OP how much mining power do you have? If it's a very small amount a pool that has a lower minimum payout even with a higher fee might be better. If you have to mine for a year+ before you generate enough BTC for a payment at a lower fee pool it might be worth it to you to mine someplace else.

-Dave

philipma1957

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Quote from: kano on June 22, 2021, 07:36:14 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 22, 2021, 06:31:38 AM

If you are not mining all day every day PPS is going to be better. You do the mining work, you get paid for it at a known rate.
Although Kano is correct in the fact that PPLNS would eventually possibly be better, it's all in theory.
...

While at the moment due to the small size of my pool, it indeed is not paying anything for 11 months without a block and certainly less than PPS.

However, while the pool was larger and getting regular blocks, our long term reward history was always better than the PPS pools, pretty much over any 12 month period.

(I guess we just need a couple of large miners to join

)

Your pool had an amazing 1000 block performance rate.

The first 1000 blocks your pool made were far faster then most any other pools first 1000 blocks.

you were over 104% which for an extended period of time is amazing.

kano

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Quote from: DaveF on June 22, 2021, 06:31:38 AM

If you are not mining all day every day PPS is going to be better. You do the mining work, you get paid for it at a known rate.
Although Kano is correct in the fact that PPLNS would eventually possibly be better, it's all in theory.
...

While at the moment due to the small size of my pool, it indeed is not paying anything for 11 months without a block and certainly less than PPS.

However, while the pool was larger and getting regular blocks, our long term reward history was always better than the PPS pools, pretty much over any 12 month period.

(I guess we just need a couple of large miners to join

)

DaveF

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If you are not mining all day every day PPS is going to be better. You do the mining work, you get paid for it at a known rate.
Although Kano is correct in the fact that PPLNS would eventually possibly be better, it's all in theory.

If you started mining Jan 1st 2021, with a pool like VIABTC that Phil recommended you would have been getting paid "X" for every share you mined + a percentage of the block fees - the 4% they take.

Since PPLNS is based on finding a block if you were mining on a pool like Kanos you would have been paid nothing since his pool has not found a block in 11 months.

If you were mining with a larger PPLNS that actually found blocks then it would depend on pure random luck. If there were more blocks found towards the end of your ramp up time then you would possibly be ahead. If your luck ran the other way then you would be behind.

If you could not mine for a few days for whatever reason (or even if you forgot to turn the rigs on for a weekend) and a PPLNS pool got lucky then had a bad week, you are worse off.

But with PPS you submit shares, you get paid.

*If you were running 24/7/365 it's a different story. So for anyone else reading this figure out what works for you.

-Dave

kano

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Quote from: philipma1957 on June 20, 2021, 05:36:31 PM

Quote from: CaneJake on June 20, 2021, 02:03:09 PM

I am new to mining and i dont know what paymet method i should choose. I will mine around 6-12h a day.

Thanks

If you mine pps+ on viabtc.com you do not lose shares.

pplns is subject to luck 🍀

On PPSxyz each share is valued as at the time it is mined.

On PPLNS your shares are valued as at the time a block is found.
You don't lose shares, that's misinformation, what happens is that those shares found close to the block are valued many times higher than PPSxyz shares, to account for the shares that aren't included.

While PPLNS is subject to luck, it's not case of losing or gaining, it averages out over time to be better than PPSxyz since the fees for PPSxyz are required to be much higher to account for that exact variance that exist in PPLNS, that the PPSxyz pool operator must pay.

gt_addict

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PPS is probably best for intermittent mining. PPLNS needs a "ramp up" time. but I suppose it would average out. PPS is probably easier.

philipma1957

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Quote from: CaneJake on June 20, 2021, 02:03:09 PM

I am new to mining and i dont know what paymet method i should choose. I will mine around 6-12h a day.

Thanks

If you mine pps+ on viabtc.com you do not lose shares.

pplns is subject to luck 🍀

CaneJake

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I am new to mining and i dont know what paymet method i should choose. I will mine around 6-12h a day.

Thanks

Topic: PPS+ or PPLNS for short time mining (6-12h a day). (Read 264 times)