Topic: Proof of work vs proof of stake? Why can't i STAKE my BTC? (Read 283 times)

There are already a lot of ways to stake your Bitcoin these days, but you will use another chain, not the Bitcoin network alone.
There is some alternative chain where you can wrapped your Bitcoin to a particular chain, like in Ethereum/Solana/Avax/BSC, what will happen is you will bridge your assets from one chain to another, for example, the Bitcoin, you will bridge it to Ethereum network and now you can use your Bitcoin as wrapped to Ethereum network.
Then this time, there is some platform that offers staking wrapped Bitcoins, and now you get incentives.

And I should also point out, these are only known and reported cases. In each of these, the platforms were forced to comment or issue statements, because big account holders were affected. I'm pretty sure, as was the case before with centralised p2p lenders, small accounts when affected just get ignored or swept under the rug, or aren't taken seriously for yelling on reddit or such.


Slightly more mature then =) but I'd say no difference since BSC and copyclones generally just lift the code and contracts from predecessors, with some improvements (if any)... right?

For sure people are making a lot of money. A lot. Just that I feel a lot more will be losing money down the line after the whales and first-floorers extract their gains.

Hard to disagree with this because the stuck transactions and network congestion resulted in a lot of vault holders losing their collateral with no refunds on liquidation. It was indeed due to the inability of the platforms to handle such events. Though if you compare them to centralized system, people do lose money in black swan events but I'd have to dig a bit more to find a analogy.

I was meaning more like Compound, Ave versus the farms on BSC and Polygon. There is really no comparison to Bitcoin. These are all quite risky plays but one can't deny that people are certainly making life-changing money from them because of the exact same reason.

Tell that to MakerDAO users circa Black Monday 2020 (last year). And to a lesser extent, Compound and Aave a year later during yet another flash crash. Some very unsuspecting people otherwise "earning" easily for months got wiped out and you'd be hard pressed to find a platform more mature than MakerDAO, Compound, Aave.

Yes, smart contract liquidations work pretty well but Black Swan events (I hate using terms like these but since so many crypto people do I guess people actually get it) have incredibly unpredictable outcomes for untested smart contract functions... I'd also probably disagree with you on what makes a "mature" platform. Bitcoin is mature, Ethereum a bit behind that, but most of the platforms we're talking about here haven't even been around for 4 years.

Really I'm waiting for one of those wrapped Bitcoin defi protocols (I may be completely using the wrong terms here) to get exploited badly and people losing actual Bitcoin, for people to realise what a lie "Bitcoin defi" is.

Some people are very lazy and will not want to research and know about how to mine but only prefer staking while what I have heard before is that people that is not having 25 ether will not be able to stake, that is a lot high amount of money now if compared to US dollar. I see how this might be a possible way of centralisation but maybe there will be staking pools which are not centralized. I still prefer PoW over PoS and what I prefer most about bitcoin PoW is that bitcoin still have the strongest blockchain in the world.

exchanges have most custody of PoS coins. no need to buy/pre-mine them. just offer a custody service for free and get free coin deposited to you.

The most recent thing I could think of is the paper by cryptography experts from Stanford University on 3 attack vectors on ETH PoS: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2110.10086.pdf
Cost of such attacks is negligible compared to cost of attacking even a low hashrate PoW.

Generally speaking we can name some of the serious PoS attack vectors:
- The adversary who controls a large amount of PoS coin can have a strong control over that network. For example the premined altcoins or cheap coins that could be bought with little amount of money. It is like PoW 51% attack but it doesn't necessarily need 51% of the supply.
- Long range attack called Stake Bleeding where the adversary can build an alternative chain without publishing it until it is long and the adversary has a huge stake in that chain then publishes it essentially replacing the entire honest blockchain with very little cost: https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/248.pdf
- Another long range attack called "Posterior Corruption" or "“costless simulation" which is when an old stake holder who has sold their stake perform a history-rewrite attack: https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/919.pdf This could also happen if someone bought the old keys used for staking

Then PoS coins should not be called cryptocurrencies anymore. Lets refer to them as high risk cryptoinvestments.

Another fundamental flaw in this economical design IMO is that those who are securing the network in Proof of Stake can abandon that chain in an instant and move to another chain. All they have to do is to dump their coins and convert them to another PoS coin.
This is not as easy in PoW because the miners that are securing the PoW chain can not easily dump their ASICs and buy new ones to mine an alternative algorithm. Even the reward you get in a PoW algorithm can not be dumped right away, coinbase outputs have to "mature" for 100 blocks before they can be spent.

you dont need to work to get social security. so in your mind, a life on social security is a better life then working for a living?

PoW is not a weapon of environmentalists.
the big farms have since 2014 been using renewables.
its actually a weapon of the small minded racists.

ill explain briefly
alot of media portrays china as evil enemies of the west. saying that china wastes fossil fuel and produces more emissions..

but here is some stats.
american population 320mill - emissions 5gtonne
chinese population 1400mill - emissions 10gtonne

do the math. gtonne / 100m population
america: 1.56gtonne
china: 0.71gtonne

china produce under HALF as much emissions per populous

next lets look at the Gwatts produced by country
      Total(GWh)    Total RE(GWh)    RE % of total    
USA:  4,322,038       637,076       14.7%
china: 7,142,200       1,739,400    24.35%    

translate to 100m populous
      Total(GWh)    Total RE(GWh)    RE % of total    
USA:  1,350,636       199,086       14.7%
china: 510,157          124,242    24.35%    

and again china use less electricity in general per populous but more of it is renewable.
and this is even with china being the mega manufacturer of most electronic goods for the world.
think about all them factories. and industry. yet america wastes more electric and more of that electric is not renewable

so when media exaggerate that china is killing the planet. china is producing too much carbon, china is not using renewable.. thats MEDIA. not reality

..
when there are two people.. one using 13 non efficient lightbulbs in his house. and another guy using just 5 efficient lightbulbs. and its the 13bulb guy trying to tell the 5 bulb guy that the 5 bulb guy need to use less lights... sorry but thats not logic. and its definitely not a "environmental" argument. its just a way to be racist to the 5 bulb guy to try getting him to play to the whims of the 13 bulb guys naive ignorant mindset.

much like the 13 bulb guy wants to pay for his electricity using his social security cheque because he does not believe in working for his earnings, whilst the 5 bulb guys works for a living

This issue can’t be just a matter of opinion. The truth is far from your personal “opinion”, ser. Because you believe that POS “is better” than POW will not make it so. With all due respect, do your research before posting foolish things in the forum.

You can not stake your Bitcoin because Bitcoin network is Proof of Work, not Proof of Stake.

If you want to do staking, you have to join staking pool or DeFi pool but you don't stake your Bitcoin directly. You will have to swap your Bitcoin to tokens that can be on ERC-20 or BSC or any chain, and use those tokens to stake.

If you want to get your Bitcoin and stake rewards, you have to convert them to Bitcoin via swap.

Don't confuse Btc with other coins that can be easily raised like you are raising goats. We keep Btc intact and leave it uncultivated. Because the concept of BTC is not for stake. One BTC remains intact and will not change, one Bitcoin and cannot be reproduced. If you have 1 Btc, then it will remain one. However, value and scarcity are price drivers. You take off 1 then you will not have 1 the same price to buy it.

1 Btc is not the same as an altcoin or shitcoin that has a supply of trillions that you can bet on. It's not the same and never will be.

I'm unbelievably ignorant of computer science and programming, so I don't know what those attack vectors are for PoS coins (and I haven't read anything about that topic).  I don't want to go off-topic, but I'm curious as to what those are and if they've ever compromised a PoS coin before.  I've been a fan of them for a while now--and yeah, you can call me stupid for that if you like--and I haven't heard of a PoS coin that's been hacked or attacked or what have you.

The whole "getting paid for having money" thing isn't necessarily a design flaw, nor is it a new concept.  Investors who own dividend-paying stocks get paid for holding their stock, and it's a perfect example of passive income.

But all of that aside, I'd say you answered OP's question in full.  Bitcoin's code wasn't written to be proof-of-stake, period.  I'd suggest that if OP still isn't aware of the difference, he might want to do some Googling on the subject.  Hell, I'm computer retarded (the second time I'll note that fact) and even I understand why you can't stake bitcoin.

Miners activities in the proof of work system is only to write transaction the blockchain but to also maintain and secure the network.
 Meanwhile, you participate in both POW and POS projects independently though the cryptographic decision is usually made through consensus i.e if the project is decentralized.

Every coin has its own consensus but some exchange sites offer staking for POW but saving your coins for the long term on an exchange is not encouraged though.

Their exchange their rules

Most of the mature platforms that have people locking in billions of dollars worth of BTC actually just rely on the smart-contract for liquidations if the collateral falls below a certain level. So, there isn't really a risk of default to these platforms. They have already functioned the way they were supposed to. The main issue is that the collateral cannot be expanded to include all kinds of shit. This is something that the established platforms shy away from.

Its those cheap, degen farms on BSC and MATIC that these anon "devs" keep throwing up everyday with only one purpose. To scam away at newbies like OP trying to understand the difference between Proof of "Stake" and "Stake" on a platform.

POS may be better in some aspects but there's no doubt that POW is much more secure than POS. The only vulnerability to POW is 51% attacks, but for a completely decentralized network such as Bitcoin itself, it's nearly impossible for one group to have 51% hashing power of the network. Whereas in POS it's far easier to just buy a majority of the coin on a network, become a validator, and validate fraudulent transactions.

Lol, that's an interesting analogy... So that S can stand for Socialism too, i see

In any case just holding your bitcoins has proven to be quite effective over time, so if you don't want to mine just buy and HODL. Of course at some point you should consider investing some of your savings in some productive activity, as you can't expect to live just of holding forever. Unless you were one of those lucky early adopters.

To work with money that doesn't lose purchasing power over time, rather than getting in debt, you simply save until you have enough to do whatever project you have in mind. This is how the world will slowly move away from the debt economy to the savings economy, Read about the Austrian school of economy.

Of course the garbage fiat and their altcoin copycats will fade away, especially if the world enters a new world crisis from the fall of the USD.

But that high electricity consumption from POW mining has become a weapon for the environmentalists. Whenever the bad side of POW is discussed, electricity consumption and increase carbon emissions remains the top concerns amongst others. So I personally think that POS is far better than POW.

You don't need expensive hardwares, you don't need to maintain the mining setup. All you need is some amount of that coin to lock up under a contract within the chain. If you don't have the required amount of coins to stake, pool staking is also available.

POS actually makes cryptocurrency more accessible to mass!

Staking is not something that works for every cryptocurrency. The cryptocurrency that you are holding has to allow such before you can stake it. Bitcoin cannot be staked, but there are some exchanges that would allow you to deposit your Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency at all into a savings account or something like that and you will be earning interest per annum, the interest goes anywhere around 4% to 6% per annum, and even as high as 20% for some altcoins.

So, you cannot stake Bitcoin for now, but you can stake Ethereum (because of the ETH 2 upgrade). And then other cryptocurrencies that you can also stake are Texos, and Cosmos. There are also many others that you can stake, you can just look for the ones you believe are really good and you can select them and start staking them.

Your basic idea is correct, only difference is it's not about holding a currency, it's about giving it in to become a validator for that protocol, there are no such conditions, basically, whenever any cryptocurrency is created the developers create a protocol for the currency and that protocol would basically decide the mechanism of transactions in that coin, Bitcoin was developed as a proof of work currency which means you can't stake in it, while other currencies like BNB, SOL are created on the PoS protocol which means transactions are confirmed by validators and not miners. Basically, these are two different mechanisms on which different coin runs, you can't stake POW tokens and similarly, you can't mine PoS tokens.

I think it's also important to mention here (based on responses from Wind_FURY and avikz) is that the term "stake" that you'll see being bandied around a lot in crypto these days is not the same utility as the Proof-of-Stake terminology used by coins using that PoS consensus algorithm.

The "stake" used in those earnings companies (or centralised ponzis we can say) is just you handing over your Bitcoin in return for passive earnings. This is purportedly derived from the interest charged to borrowers, where the company taking your Bitcoin is supposed to loan out your BTC, charging interest, and giving you that interest minus their commission for managing the whole thing. It's a great model, except for the fact that borrowers in crypto tend to default. There's an entire history of crypto loan platforms going bust because Bitcoin's volatile (simplistic but that's the key).

The "stake" used in "Defi" almost works the same way, except you'll be forced to risk tying up your Bitcoin on some second-rate sidechain and getting shitcoin tokens to participate in lending/liquidity pools on other shitcoin networks, earning from a share of exchange commission. These tokens (wrapped Bitcoin and all those variations of) then are redeemed back for your real Bitcoin. Most "Defi" programs use "Staking" and "Saving" interchangeably and give out a variable interest rate (also they love using terms like APR or APY to confuse you to think it's like a savings account).

I like to think the "stake" term used in Lightning is almost like a reputation thing. You're staking your Bitcoin as liquidity, and will get back fees from that, but also risk losing it if you act badly. I see Lightning stakers more like service providers more than passive income earners though, as they actually do need to manage and maintain with more care than casual Defi/Savings/Interest stakers.

OP, there’s actually a way to “Stake” your Bitcoin for earning sats, but it’s not as a POS consensus mechanism. Provide liquidity in the Lightning Network through opening/funding channels, and being a routing node. I believe if Lightning usage increases, and the liquid channels become more in demand, fees in Lightning will increase.

You can't stake bitcoin, but you can borrow it to an exchange, for example. That will generate some interest, but that is not the same as earning staking rewards.
The other thing you can do is take advantage of the DEFI ecosystem. Again, you can't use bitcoin directly, but you can swap your coins for a bitcoin token like wBTC. You then lend that wBTC to the platform. I don't recommend that you do that, I am just telling you what is possible to do. 

The most important condition is to have that implemented.
While many altcoins/shitcois do have that, Bitcoin doesn't. Imho Bitcoin is way better without PoS/


In the same way different banks in different countries give different interest rates for the money you deposit in different currencies, this is how I see whatever the exchanges and other businesses do.
You may also confuse staking with interest on deposits or with interest on lending some platforms may do, especially as they advertise their "products" in various manners.

Do not get it wrong when there are exchanges and wallets that says you can stake your bitcoin. You're not really staking your bitcoin on them but they're giving you an interest rate because you're allowing them to borrow your bitcoin and use them to whatever other service they're offering to the other users and most likely, it's about lending.

You understand correctly. If you want to stake BTC, you can use the Lightning Network. It's not a PoS consensus algorithm but it is a sort of staking mechanism.

Each LN channel has BTC locked in a smart contract so it is "staked" in the channel. The more channels you have open and the more connected your node becomes, the more BTC you can potentially earn. It's important to understand that the same rules apply to everyone on the lightning network. Those with more at stake don't have more "votes" than smaller stakers but they absolutely stand to earn more BTC if it is well allocated.

What many people were hopeful about ethereum 2.0 was that people will be able to stake ethereum and also pay low transaction fee, but now still getting longer and ethereum fee is very high like nothing has been changed. Let us hope ethereum will finally move to PoS by 2022, but just that PoW is far better than PoS as the equipment used for mining are bought and help the companies producing the equipments to also gain unlike PoS that only deals with staking, also that electricity companies are also paid to produce more electricity, PoW helps in the progrey of these companies.

PoW is like using your own labour to work for your earnings..
PoS is like taking a social security income for displaying your desire to not work to earn.

imagine a social security system that the more you have in your bank account the more you can earn from social security.
that system would be dumb. as its a scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. where the rich dont have to put anything at risk to get richer. and the poor are left playing the free lottery hoping their lucky number will be announced. hoping, hoping, hoping.. forever. but never having enough 'tickets' to ever get a win.

i know alot of people want 'money for nothing'. but the only reason why PoS had any success is the small community, small enough to allow it to share the slices of winnings. (enough lottery results to give each person a lottery win), but the more popular a PoS coin gets the less of a share can go around.
this is why you see literally thousands of PoS coins. to have thousands of small communities instead of one big community.

bitcoin is different because those that want to secure the network and get rewarded for it need to work for their earnings. work together as one large community.
they way it should be

Because BTC is not a shitcoin.

In PoW the computing power and the fact that by consensus rules we follow the chain with the most work is used to ensure reversing the blocks is so costly that it can be considered impossible. That way we ensure immutability of the blockchain.

Liquidity doesn't change whether or not you hold or stake a coin.

Basically, in early days when developers were more interested in improving the technology, someone came up with the idea that a new algorithm could be introduced where nodes process transactions and get paid for doing so. Hence Proof of Stake came to life.
But this was a very flawed approach for many reasons. From different attack vectors to the economical design flaws (you get paid for having money!).

Depends on the coin. Early coins were as I explained above, exploring changes in Bitcoin technology. Newer coins are mainly using PoS or planning to switch to PoS so that they can make sure their coin is going to die when the miners abandon it due to high difficulty or price dump.
In some cases like ETH they are making the switch to also ensure their own revenue since they hold tens of millions of ether and in PoS you get paid to own that coin!!!

The algorithm has to allow that.

You can't stake your BTC because the algorithm doesn't allow you to. So whatever staking option for bitcoin you can see in the market, it's more of a ponzi scheme. There are multiple companies who also offers you to create a deposit account with bitcoin and give you certain percentage of interest back. These are not driven by the bitcoin algorithm so there's no guarantee that you will get your money back at the end of the deposit period.


It all depends on the algorithm itself. If the developer of a coin wants to implement POS algorithm, you will be able to stake. For example, ETH is now a POW coin so you can mine it. But in 2022 (hopefully) they will be moving to POS mechanism, so you will be able to stake the coin and won't be able to mine it using your computing power. 



As said earlier, these kind of exchange staking of bitcoin is not controlled by the algorithm. These are centralized operations just similar to a bank deposit. So the exchanges have the liberty to fix their own interest rate. There's no one control it! Hope this explanation helps! 

My understanding of proof of work is that basically (miners/CPUs provide power to write transactions on the blockchain) whereas Proof of stake (is when we hold a certain currency and lock it into the systemso liquidity increases).Please correct me if im wrong.
Also why is it that only some coins can be staked?What are the conditions for a coin to be eligible to be staked?
And why are the returns on staking different on different exchanges?Is it simply due to difference in commission ,as logically the return on staking should be universally same depending upon the lock in period?