Proposition to end California sales tax and income tax.

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on May 01, 2012, 11:58:44 PM

Quote from: Explodicle on May 01, 2012, 04:52:15 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on May 01, 2012, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: realnowhereman on April 30, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

And pirating isn't the result of unregulated enterprise?

It is, but piracy is a lot easier when your victims aren't allowed to mount defensive weapons... due to regulations on non-Somali ports.

Why don't we see armed private Somali escorts on the open seas to address this? Seems like it would be a good business.

Why would it be good that everyone can turn their vessels into battleships, or need to expend the money to do so? Sounds like a teenage boy's fantasy world. Seems like the current situation is better than that.

You already DO need to spend money on battleships - the armed forces. Unfortunately, they refuse to extend their protection to Somali waters. At some point with ANY system you're going to have to either pay for someone's guns or be pirated.

(What do you care what teenage boys fantasize about? This seems irrelevant.)

You're right - the current situation is better than everyone in every port mounting guns. It would make more sense to have private escorts who specialize in unprotected waters. But, I still have no idea why that hasn't actually happened, so maybe I'm missing something. Corporations SHOULD be solving this problem.

realnowhereman

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The alternative (and I have met people that run just such a service) is a private supplier of anti-pirates.

You pay an annual fee and get a sattellite comms based panic button. When you push it a privately organised bunch of extremely dangerous ex-SAS chaps with plenty of nasty equipment come speeding to your rescue. This company maintains a presence in all the dangerous parts of the oceans.

How long do you reckon it would take for a free market to find that mutually beneficial trade with a private-insurance-paid-for police force was more productive than piracy?

The only reason we have piracy in Somalia is because the victims have been trained to think in a regulated world and still have to interact with that world (try landing a minigun loaded boat at Plymouth and see what happens).

I don't believe that humanity is so fucked up that it is only regulations that stop us being all pirates. There is a better way and we would naturally move towards it.

TECSHARE

legendary

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First Exclusion Ever

Sounds like Road Warrior had its way with Water World and this is the result...

FirstAscent

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Quote from: Explodicle on May 01, 2012, 04:52:15 PM

Quote from: FirstAscent on May 01, 2012, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: realnowhereman on April 30, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

And pirating isn't the result of unregulated enterprise?

It is, but piracy is a lot easier when your victims aren't allowed to mount defensive weapons... due to regulations on non-Somali ports.

Why don't we see armed private Somali escorts on the open seas to address this? Seems like it would be a good business.

Why would it be good that everyone can turn their vessels into battleships, or need to expend the money to do so? Sounds like a teenage boy's fantasy world. Seems like the current situation is better than that.

bb113

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Aren't corporations the products of government? I mean literally, the government sells the right to limited liability from the justice system to people running businesses. Without government what would be the meaning of corporation?

Explodicle

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Quote from: FirstAscent on May 01, 2012, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: realnowhereman on April 30, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

And pirating isn't the result of unregulated enterprise?

It is, but piracy is a lot easier when your victims aren't allowed to mount defensive weapons... due to regulations on non-Somali ports.

Why don't we see armed private Somali escorts on the open seas to address this? Seems like it would be a good business.

Hawker

legendary

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Quote from: FirstAscent on May 01, 2012, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: realnowhereman on April 30, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

And pirating isn't the result of unregulated enterprise?

To be fair, kidnapping, piracy and banditry is what results when you don't have a state. No law means no ownership which means that ordinary people have no moral inhibition about preying on the weak. In Somalia's case, the "weak" includes foreign ships and tourists.

realnowhereman

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Quote from: FirstAscent on May 01, 2012, 12:53:15 PM

Quote from: realnowhereman on April 30, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

And pirating isn't the result of unregulated enterprise?

How could I not have seen it before? Theft, murder and extortion are all standard tools of the free market. Thanks for opening my eyes.

FirstAscent

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Quote from: realnowhereman on April 30, 2012, 05:09:27 PM

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

And pirating isn't the result of unregulated enterprise?

steelhouse

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Quote

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

I say the corporations and a stock market are the solution to Somalia's troubles. You don't need a central government run by planners.

steelhouse

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Quote from: vampire on April 30, 2012, 03:32:21 PM

ROFL: It's like NYC vs the rest of the country? NYC is very productive, but moving here is probably out of pocket for a lot of people.

most of the economy of NYC is based off the financial sector. All the money stolen in bailouts and by the fed end up in nyc first.

realnowhereman

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Quote from: DILLIGAF on April 30, 2012, 03:49:09 PM

Quote from: steelhouse on April 30, 2012, 01:08:51 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia
Despite it all since, the end of central government in Somalia, life expectancy has gone up. It is was not for their socialist roots, they will realize it is corporations/people that improve the country and not centralized federal government.

Yes them kind loving corporations always have the best interest of the people at top of their agenda.

Quote

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.

I seriously doubt that Somalia's troubles are caused by corporations.

DILLIGAF

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Quote from: steelhouse on April 30, 2012, 01:08:51 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia
Despite it all since, the end of central government in Somalia, life expectancy has gone up. It is was not for their socialist roots, they will realize it is corporations/people that improve the country and not centralized federal government.

Yes them kind loving corporations always have the best interest of the people at top of their agenda.

vampire

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ROFL: It's like NYC vs the rest of the country? NYC is very productive, but moving here is probably out of pocket for a lot of people.

steelhouse

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Quote from: Explodicle on April 29, 2012, 07:17:31 PM

I like the idea and would probably vote for it. However...

Why redirect taxes locally? It would make more sense to just slowly lower state income/sales taxes over a long period like 10 years. That way state agencies can gradually transition to local offices, and cities can vote to raise local taxes accordingly. There's no sense in firing everybody immediately just so they can be rehired in a couple months/years, with wasted labor and unavailable services in between.

You never need to worry about lost jobs because fired people can move into more productive areas. Only people in non-productive areas, who's jobs are subsidized by people in productive areas, would have to get new jobs. This will result in higher pay and more vacation for all.

50% of the "State" workers might go, but they remaining "State" workers like DMV and Water Resources, would be very small and get funding directly from you car registration fees or water bill. The teachers might be local.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia
Despite it all since, the end of central government in Somalia, life expectancy has gone up. It is was not for their socialist roots, they will realize it is corporations/people that improve the country and not centralized federal government.

DILLIGAF

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Quote from: steelhouse on April 29, 2012, 09:24:48 AM

Any ideas on how to get this started?

Move to Somalia they have already implemented it...

Explodicle

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I like the idea and would probably vote for it. However...

Why redirect taxes locally? It would make more sense to just slowly lower state income/sales taxes over a long period like 10 years. That way state agencies can gradually transition to local offices, and cities can vote to raise local taxes accordingly. There's no sense in firing everybody immediately just so they can be rehired in a couple months/years, with wasted labor and unavailable services in between.

TECSHARE

legendary

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First Exclusion Ever

I mean this in the most polite way possible - but that sounds like a clusterfuck for a LOT of organizations. The end goal is valid - but I don't think you have really developed the plans for execution fully.

steelhouse

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State funding would be cut off immediately. Those taxes would be transferred to local jurisdictions for one year. After 1 year, all the local taxes would be re-negotiated by the voters. Thus, most of the schools would stay open and all state funded items would either be sold to the private sector like prisons, to taken over locally. Some like the California State Colleges, might be sold or bought locally, or most likely become their own non-profit entity.

TECSHARE

legendary

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Merit: 2008

First Exclusion Ever

Quote from: steelhouse on April 29, 2012, 09:24:48 AM

I want power pushed back to the cities and counties. In the proposition, I want the current sales tax to be diverted to the cities for 1 year, and to the county if you are not in a city. After that the sales tax ended. However, most likely voted on by the residents of that city. Thus I hope to create a system where different cities will have different taxes and some cities will have no taxes. Thus, I can move and shop there.

Any ideas on how to get this started?
Do you like the idea?

I like the idea, but it is pretty bold and has some serious flaws. First of all you will have a contract on your head from day one from corrupt state level thugs xD (possibly literally). Even assuming no one messes with you there is the issue of how the state would cope with the inevitable 1 year gap in having NO tax revenue. Assuming you could fix that the next thing you would want to do is find a few philanthropist types to fund the organization of such a movement. From there I would ask the experts for direction.

steelhouse

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I want power pushed back to the cities and counties. In the proposition, I want the current sales tax to be diverted to the cities for 1 year, and to the county if you are not in a city. After that the sales tax ended. However, most likely voted on by the residents of that city. Thus I hope to create a system where different cities will have different taxes and some cities will have no taxes. Thus, I can move and shop there.

Any ideas on how to get this started?
Do you like the idea?

Topic: Proposition to end California sales tax and income tax. (Read 2068 times)