Topic: Provably fair RTP ? (Read 465 times)

Exactly! Of course it doesn`t mean that everyone wants to deceive you, but only that you can`t be sure that someone tells the truth about thing that you don`t understand. In the everyday life it doesn`t big problem but in cryptocurrencies everything changes very fast and often you need to decide "right now". And you can choose to believe someone, who has good recommendations from other people with good recommendations or to believe yourself.
PS. Of course it doesn`t mean that you don`t need to do some research.

Among all those who use cryptocurrencies, there are not so many programmers who have experience in deciphering other people's codes and searching for bugs.  Such specialists are among the most valuable and in demand all over the world.  And by the way, they have very good salaries.  But an ordinary person, even if he uses cryptocurrency, is still powerless to understand what is in the code, where he can be deceived and what this will lead to.  So it remains only to trust the experts.  However, they can also be deceiving. 
Everything is confused in our world, one hope is your intuition. 
Well, about the experience, too, of course.

I had also been wondering about RTP and about Provably Fair, but I also think that Provably Fair is configured according to the RTP offered by the casino, since RTP is totally independent from Provably Fair because casinos can configure it, in fact the RTP in some threads of the forum has been commented a lot, because obviously we as players are attracted by the opportunities to win and that is something that is included in all, however for me, there must be a balance in everything, for me the Porvably Fair is the best, it is obvious that the house will always have the advantage, still one can win.

I know the Covid pandemic worsened the quality of education in some countries, I'm so sorry for you, kids shouldn't miss geography lessons because it seems, you have not seen other countries on the map like Malta, Cyprus, Lithuania, Estonia. And you don't know that these countries are the top jurisdictions for online gambling too. Since there wasn't strictly mentioned Crypto Casinos, I took this as a general question and be glad for the answer.

Then why do you gamble there? You say yourself that a Curacao license is meaningless and I agree with you but, even if casinos with Curacao licenses show you the real-time RTP, does it matter? It can be absolutely fake since as you say, the are not regulated. Now you are against your own question, you know the answer but still ask the question.
Check this thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.49253796

You`re right that there are a lot of ways to check software and you wrote right and possible decisions. But let try an example - i`m bad programmer and can`t check the difficult code. So the OpenSourse can`t help me. Ok, i see thousand feedbacks from different cool programmers that i don`t know and, for example, even Elon Mask. It looks strong, but i have to believe these people. It looks like paranoia, but this is just example that anyway we need to believe someone if don`t skilled enough.

Yep there is a big difference between RTP and volatility, and I believe there is a big relationship between these two mathematical measurements when it comes to slots.

The volatility refers to the likeliness of the slot to return the player's money that is associated by the risk depending on the volatility level of the slot. The higher the volatility, the less chance that you win, but big hits is most likely. On the other hand, less volatile slots means that you'll be winning more often however only by lots of small wins.

I wouldn't explain RTP.
I believe that volatility highly affects the RTP a lot.
So I believe it is a wise decision if you switch slots after you win early when you hit a big win or you had series of small wins in which already put you in profit. Through that, the RTP of the game won't be hunting you (theoretically).

Above all, since slots are based on RNG plus the house has the edge, expect that you'll not win over the house if you play almost non-stop. So be disciplined and set algorithms on your self when you play slots.

I think all casino uses a software and there are different kinds of software. Even this forum that we are using now also uses a software. If the casino don't use a software then how can the website be completed?

We have old sites and they are more trusted even if some of them didn't totally show the software that they are using but I think they have a reason for doing that and that must be a private thing already. We should not think that they are shady because they did that and if they are really shady then how can they stay relevant for such a long time? Not all have the money to create their own gambling site, that is why some people remains to be a casino player.

I also think that RTP or promotion is not too important because it will return to our level of luck when playing gambling. If we are really lucky, and the casino doesn't have a high RTP or the casino is cheating us, we can still win. But maybe we can also choose a game that has a large RTP and can get a promotion or bonus before we play so that it can increase our balance. So whatever it is, RTP or promotion, it will be useful for gamblers who want to get more balance.

Being a casino player,you should analysis your own way of approach.Because using of software for the casino is not the wise option.Instead you can inverse huge money on gambling sites and make use of your own casino to win the game.The software may give u few help.But we should not use it fully for analysis casino.

very rare that you will encounter a gambler looking for the RTP details. most is they are looking for reputable casinos which are not screwing their players. so if the casino has fairly decent reputation, their players are just contented and not bothering about their RTP. even high rollers won't ask this if they are pretty confident to the casino. i guess, we all know that if we start asking this feature from the casino owners, are we going to receive prompt answers from them? it will be a long road if we ever tried this path. so for me, just waste your time looking for reputable ones and read their active feedbacks rather than focus on this particular aspect.

Hence there is a reason why SOME platforms tend to be redflagged especially when their SYSTEM is either not open-source or their players' testimonies often were MORE of a losing experience than a winning one. Platforms (whom always were successful), tends to disclose their game's back end since it can help them receive contributions from the community whilst some also shows their RTPs whereas players with experiences knows the difference between a 96%RTP over a 95%RTP.

Some people was really into the RTP since they might be a big time gambler but for someone like us who doesn't gamble too much and find it as an entertainment it doesn't bother us that much about whether the RTP is accurate or not and I think even if it is not accurate most people still would play in those slots that was given by the reputable game providers.

ya.ya.yo!

I'm not sure we can detect the accuracy of the RTP because we might find a number that is different from what the casino advertises. Maybe it could be bigger or even smaller than advertised. But will that make us leave that casino and look for another one that can match our calculations? I think it will just be a waste of time and make us unable to play and instead busy looking for and checking the RTP. I don't know how to check the RTP and just leave it to the casino because I just want to play a lot of games.

What was the RTP of the provably fair casino games? I am not sure if I understand it correctly but does the RTP only works in slots games or casino games from third party games provider? There is no way we can check if the RTP is really true based from what they advertise.

It seems no one is really asking seriously from the casinos about this aspect.
Hence, for them there is no need to put those audit links.
But if maybe one user will sincerely ask this to a known casino,
they may possibly assist the user but expect that it will take time as this is not their everyday request from their players.

I don't think that you can do that deterministically.

You can only test the hypothesis that RTP is actually x % and seeing what percentage chance it is for the current string of events to have occurred.

Short term variance can completely skew results anyway and we'd have to essentially trust the software suppliers as well as government regulators to do the right thing, which is why I'm not particularly sold on these non-provably fair slots.

The point here is whether the one who needs to know the live RTP is a few spins or a much spins player.
So, who benefits from the RTP someone who makes a lot of spins or the recreational player who sits makes a few spins and boom 1000x.

This one goes away and comes back in a few months or days, but the other one is continually spinning, so yesterday it saw a 96% RTP and today it sees a 98% RTP on the same game, the RTP puts it in a long-term losing range known, then what you need is to know the boom to stay away from losses.

The point is (classic example, yes, but sorry I need it for my context) let's say you have $100 you do 100 spins with an RTP of 95% the house takes $5 and in theory you should take $95, but curious you can take $200 or zero dollars ($0), basically because slots are fun, losing $5 (example) to win a big prize is what makes slots so successful.

Now I understand the point of manipulation, it sucks, but even a machine that claims to have 96% RTP, at a given moment can have an RTP of 94% and can have another say 98% and it is not being manipulated.

Anyway, slots is fun one day you are happy winning another day just spins... a live RTP can have a patience effect, like putting time on traffic lights, it has been shown that a traffic light with a timer de-stresses drivers , a live RTP can be counterproductive.  
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The review of third parties not linked to the casinos should provide confidence that the mentioned RTPs work, so it should be verified if they at least have certificates issued by the E-Cogra, which means "E-Commerce Online Gaming Regulation and Assurance" and/or "Gaming Associates" that are responsible for audits.

https://gamingassociates.com
https://ecogra.org

There are lots of people that has the skill to analyze the code to see if the code are legit or not.... the thing is, the piece of code that are used for this, must be Open Source and it must also make sure that the entry or entries within the Proprietary code that it queries... must be verified. (It should not link to a false entry within the software)

So there should be some standard OpenSource add-on that can be installed as a plugin option to "Verify" and "Report" the RTP that are configured for that software.

The casino can then receive a "Blue Flag" status.. to say that all their games are running the software and RTP's can be verified. Not just a label that says "Provably Fair".... but a actual link to the review / audit site that manage this.  

I think that the problem will be(even it is possible of course) that the testing software would be written by people. And we again don`t know is it true test or this dev programmed the result that some casino need. Just someone who is skilled in the programming can test it, but the test is true for him. And the others have to decide can they believe him or not.

This is a feature that "users" must demand.... not something that the industry will provide. The RTP are used to manipulate the income for the Slot providers and the casinos and the RTP value at any given moment are not transparent to the clients. They will show you a RTP that are provided by the Slot provider, but that RTP is variable and they have more than 1 RTP value to play with.

The in-house games have a mystery RTP.... because they will tell you that it is say 2% house edge.. but when you play that game, you will soon see that the RTP being shown are nowhere close to the RTP being used. (The casinos might have a bonus promotion ...and a few days before that, they will change that RTP to fund the rewards for that promotion) <== Speculation

It will be good for transparency, if the gambler/client can verify at all times..what the active RTP for the games are.. at any given time. This will build trust and it will reduce the moaning and groaning and complaints that we see plastered on social media and in-game chats.

Not that much if you have open code that can be verified at any time. One example of this are ethereum contracts, which I believe can also be implemented over a bitcoin network indirectly. You can verify at any time that the contract is there, you are calling it and, if you want to get into the code you can validate the RTP and the fairness. That is what I call provably fair at least.

Yea, we can't check/verify the RTP in slots, even with provably fair slots. RTP value is obtained by running millions/billions of simulation. I remember Stake revised its provably fair slots' HE a long time ago. Provably fair only means the future spin cannot be tampered, thus the result is fair. It's not about the validity of the programmed (theoretical) RTP.

So what's the solution? Well, sadly nothing we can do as a user except to trust the 3rd party provider. So the best practice is only to play games released by reputable, top brands. And make sure you connect to official server, play the real games since I heard there are pirated copies of the game.

We have no other choice but to trust a gambling website with a declared RTP. As for trusted websites, here I agree with your opinion that they have no reason to deceive their users, because trust is their most valuable asset. And here you are again right that you should lower your level of distrust of trusted gambling websites and just enjoy the service provided by them. In any case, we can't compare the claimed RTP with the real ones, so the only thing left to do is focus on the gambling.

Of course, almost everyone will answer that they do not trust the RTP data. And from little-known casinos and from large and reputable casinos. And it is impossible to find out this data, unless one of the casino employees reveals such secret, insider information. However, in the best case, he will be immediately caught by the security service and fired. And who needs it?
On the other hand, we do not know the casino's own operating costs. And these costs seriously affect the RTP.
So all that remains is to look at the presented RTP data of a particular casino, subtract 20% and smile.

We just need to trust the gambling site because maybe we will find it difficult to check. If it is a trusted gambling site, we should trust them because it will not cheat on its users. So I guess if their site has Provably Fair writing, then we just have to enjoy the game without thinking that they will cheat. But you can just check to see the actual state of Provably Fair on that site.

Though I don't see anything as beyond the crackable capacity of hackers except if they don't bid for it, they can as well achieve this but i think its better to play safe and work by the casinos that make theirs available on the site rather than embarking on what may seems suspicious on the player's account which could lead to another thing entirely, so i go by the ones i can see to verify and any casinos i doubt or couldn't find their RTP then i move forward with my search, i think this should be a choice and not until one finds what he wants then struggles must to continue.

I agree. He is writing crap. And not only what you are saying. Some of the casinos that advertise on this forum don't even have a license, so it's even worse. I don't know what he is doing talking about licenses in Europe. He must think crypto casinos are like the fiat regulated houses he sees on TV commercials.

It is clear that you are just posting sh1t on here to boost your signature income and you do not know what you are talking about. Most of the online gambling sites are operating under the Curacao Gambling License and they are not doing "audits" to check if the RTP being used is fair.

The Curacao eGaming provides technical and financial support for the online gambling industry. Examples : providing ...dedicated services, private cloud servers, international finance...

Curacao doesn’t intervene in disputes between players and operators. From the player’s point of view, a license from Curacao is meaningless.

Source : https://www.gamblingsites.org/laws/curacao/

Probably because as you said, if they were to give out a way to check the RTP, if it were to ever change the cause of some variance and shows unmatched results, it may just be argued that the casino is lying. Not to mention that for the average user, it's rather complicated that they wouldn't even bother trying it out in the first place. And considering how casinos are in the first place, businesses and they would, ofc, prioritize profits first, putting out that small feature (even if it's rather simple), they wouldn't really bother with it.

Ah yes SportBook, is a good option.

However, even LiveGames still can be manipulated for the RTP. Example playing "Blakcjack", If you remove 1-3 card is already change the RTP. But, we all don't know about the fairness of the deck even the game is live.

So, is really hard to be tracked.

Please someone more experienced with cryptography and maths correct me if am wrong but I think if a slot game uses a provably fair algorithm and the game provider publish this algorithm then anyone can not only verify each bet result but also calculate the rtp of that game.
According to my experience, verifying pf slot games results is usually more complicated than for other games such as dice, crash or roulette.

AFAIK, there is a difference between the game volatility and its rtp. Two games may have the same rtp but one with high volatility and the other with low or medium volatility.

That is correct, we are only relying on casino's reputation when it comes to RTP.
Because we can't verify this factor and if you are too worried about this.
As DoublerHunter said, just go for sports betting. At least you know, the bookie won't screw you because the results is out of their hands.

^ That is right, there is nothing we can do is to trust the casino provider about real-time and actual RTP and trust the system that they provided which is claiming that they have a fair system. At the end, still on the casino behavior of not scamming people the ends and probably that is how their reputation will keep. If we have doubt, sports bet and live betting were totally right for you because you can witness it in a real time.

It seems, that you and some people here don't really know how the things work in case of both, online and real life casinos. Online casino is not a business where you buy the script from a shady guy and run installed script on cheap Hetzner servers.

Licensed online casinos are constantly and strictly audited to ensure that the whole gambling process is fair and safe for gamblers. I don't know if it's general or not but I can certainly say that in some countries there are laws where casinos can't lower the RPT under a certain limit, in Europe casinos are very well regulated. Every single process is tested and the results are submitted to the gaming commission, they can retest anything anytime and it should prove the previous fairness.

IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

Is there other way to verify it without showing the codes? Like 3rd party or government agency to prove that they deliver right RTP? I hope there could be one so that no worries in behalf of the players. Maybe that way they won't lose much and even get more regulars on their site.

I never thought about Provably Fair deeply because I realized that gambling is a business created to provide big profits for its owners. We may be able to validate that Provably Fair but of course, it will take some time before we know that the casino is Fair. If so, it will return to our original purpose in playing gambling. If we play gambling just to look for fun, we don't have to think about Provably Fair and just play. Even though the casinos are proven to be fraudulent, we still have other casinos that we can use to gamble. Think for a moment what is your reason for playing gambling.

Calculating the RTP in real-time is something complex because there are a lot of bets on each game each second, and the result of that bet manipulates the RTP, since we don't have access to that data we can't calculate the RTP by ourselves or in a Provably fair way.

The best option is to use a service provided by the casinos to see the live RTP of each slot:

https://slots.io/live-rtp
https://bitcasino.io/es/live-rtp
https://sportsbet.io/casino/live-rtp

This is where trust play important role on playing and choosing slot provider. You have the option to choose what slot provider to use that we trust before we play so it’s up to the player discretion on how they will trust the slots RTP since there’s no way to verify it besides slots exist for so many years without any clear RTP issue.

Most of the time the players do not even bother checking the RTP for every game at the end of the day they bounce from one casino to the other and they also do trust the casino name straightforwardly.

Also checking the RTP after every game is not practical or even convenient. RTP is also a very variable thing which every casino has a minimum requirement but due to competition, it surges up in some casinos. We can't judge them before as analyse all the data ourselves also what if the data is stored incorrectly as well? Some sites don't have anything to do with it but if they have good RTP settings and the players are able to analyze it freely they would themselves get more players! It's all about pay back and profit.

They do not have to show the proprietary code for the whole program, just an additional feature that are OpenSource that will query the RTP setting and then display it to the user.    (This can then do a provably fair check to see if the displayed value are legit or if it was manipulated)

If I start a Poll now to see how many people trust the displayed RTP for the Slots by casinos and Slot providers, I can bet you the majority will choose the option that says ... "I do not trust the RTP displayed."

I think the RTP is adjusted in real-time to adapt to the needs of the casino..... and nobody ever challenge it .. they just trust the casinos.    The regulated Brick n Mortar casinos are being audited to see if they are using the correct parameters for their games, but the online casinos have no check&balances for this.

I think that is right, it would be risk for them to show the code and could lose millions so I think they will not going to show it to the users besides, they still have a lot of players that's still playing in their website even some gambling sites doesn't show information about the RTP.

You have a valid point. Having the urge to know whether the casinos is being fair by giving the players the right RTP shown in their website is normal for a player to feel, most especially because players spend money on those bets. And with that, they also deserve to get honesty from the service provider. However, making this possible would let the operators on the losing side because they would have to show the code for the players to assess whether the RTP given is true.

If that would be the case, the code will spread out and could be manipulated or even have a bypass which will make their business at risk. And no owner wants that. Hence, what we could do is really just to rely on the players feedbacks and trust the casinos we decided to play on. After all, these reputable casinos won't risk their name to be on the mud for having such issue. Because the consequences would greatly impact the players population - the ones going in and exiting out.

Even if they are reputable we are still unsure whether they deliver the right RTP or not since only them can verify it. So it is either you trust them or not that is up to you, that's why I only play sports betting and in-house casino games to make sure that it is fair and I can verify it.

ya.ya.yo!

I would also love to see this,most game providers say just "high volatility or medium volatility" slot and based on this the RTP sure is a fixed one for example at 96.75% but that happens only during a certain period of time and we cannot check in real time the RTP,I am one of the slot players and I have seen for the same slot which is a high volatility one give me the bonus round often on the reels when playing with little money and almost never giving it when I play with bigger amounts of money,I guess real time RTP has something to do with it so I would really love to see this implemented if possible.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

You pay attention to a curious moment in an online casino. Displaying RTP in online games would be welcomed by most players, but I have a question. What prevents casino owners from displaying incorrect numbers? We can't test that, can we? To reassure the players, inflated numbers will be displayed, but in fact they will be lower. Theoretically, it will be possible to check this by making calculations after their games, but even if in this case it is possible to catch the fraud, the casino owners can easily justify themselves.

Some casinos put that on their game but just like what you have said we don't have information how we can confirm that it is the actual RTP of the game, that's why I choose to play only provably fair games in some casinos where I can verify it manually rather than playing with the slots games from other providers.

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos.