Author

Topic: Question regarding transaction list in 1 block (Read 1294 times)

legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 1403
-snip-
I see thanks , so the list is in the ascending order (first to last). Both of the bolded part, why is coinbase is always the 1st TX?

Because the coinbase TX has to be in every block. It thus makes sense to add it first. -> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#merkle-trees

and by what you meant as sorted by the priority and fee does it means that it can be manipulated if I pay less fee and it will be carried as the last transaction or near to last transaction?

If you pay a low fee and use an input with a lower priority you risk that your transaction does not get included at all. There is also no way to know which pool will mine the next block (or the block needed for the game) and if they are not using a different set of rules. The first TX after the coinbase should be the one with the highest priority, as this is how the unconfirmed transactions are sorted before being added to the block. Fee is used secondary AFAIK. This allows high priority TX to get confirmed without fee. There are 50KiB reserved (by default) in every block for those. (This is the way bitcoin core decides which TX to include and does not influence the order!)

I quickly checked the priority of a few TX for a few blocks and it seems that what I think should happen and what actually happens differs.

Here is why:
Quote
Every transaction in this block, one after another, in raw transaction format. Transactions must appear in the data stream in the same order their TXIDs appeared in the first row of the merkle tree. See the merkle tree section for details.

source: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#serialized-blocks

After reading about the byte order -> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#hash-byte-order

I dont think there is an easy way to answer your question or at least not with my understanding of it. I understand how the byte order works, but I do not understand how this would change the order. Basically any way the TX get ordered before adding them to the merkle tree does not matter as the order in the merkle tree depends on the TX ID and not the properties of the TX. The properties however decide whether the TX is part of the tree in the first place. To make matters worse the TX ID is also stored differently within the tree as it is presented when queried with an RPC (as I did above). This leads me to believe that there is no reasonable answer to the question at all, because the answer depends on where you look. Do you consider the order the TX have as part of the tree or the order the RPC command returns as valid?

Maybe someone with a better understanding of this can chime in here. My final answer would be that there is no reasonable answer and for the matter of the game it should just be defined what is to be understood as the "correct" order.

In short, Let me summarize what I do take from this whole thread , feel free to PM me to change if there is anything wrong or if you want to add something here since I will be locking this thread as I have understand a bit of it and found some of my answer

1. Timestamp doesnt matter in the transaction list
2. The list is in ascending order ( first to last )
3. The properties of the TX doesnt matter with the order of the transaction as well
4. Coinbase TX is always the first
5. Perhaps lowering the fee might get the tranaction to be near the "last order" but there is a risk that it will not be included

references :

Because the coinbase TX has to be in every block. It thus makes sense to add it first. -> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#merkle-trees

The explanation was very good Shorena and the others that helped  Smiley. Thankyou very much for taking some time to explain about this issue
copper member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1499
No I dont escrow anymore.
-snip-
I see thanks , so the list is in the ascending order (first to last). Both of the bolded part, why is coinbase is always the 1st TX?

Because the coinbase TX has to be in every block. It thus makes sense to add it first. -> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#merkle-trees

and by what you meant as sorted by the priority and fee does it means that it can be manipulated if I pay less fee and it will be carried as the last transaction or near to last transaction?

If you pay a low fee and use an input with a lower priority you risk that your transaction does not get included at all. There is also no way to know which pool will mine the next block (or the block needed for the game) and if they are not using a different set of rules. The first TX after the coinbase should be the one with the highest priority, as this is how the unconfirmed transactions are sorted before being added to the block. Fee is used secondary AFAIK. This allows high priority TX to get confirmed without fee. There are 50KiB reserved (by default) in every block for those. (This is the way bitcoin core decides which TX to include and does not influence the order!)

I quickly checked the priority of a few TX for a few blocks and it seems that what I think should happen and what actually happens differs.

Here is why:
Quote
Every transaction in this block, one after another, in raw transaction format. Transactions must appear in the data stream in the same order their TXIDs appeared in the first row of the merkle tree. See the merkle tree section for details.

source: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#serialized-blocks

After reading about the byte order -> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#hash-byte-order

I dont think there is an easy way to answer your question or at least not with my understanding of it. I understand how the byte order works, but I do not understand how this would change the order. Basically any way the TX get ordered before adding them to the merkle tree does not matter as the order in the merkle tree depends on the TX ID and not the properties of the TX. The properties however decide whether the TX is part of the tree in the first place. To make matters worse the TX ID is also stored differently within the tree as it is presented when queried with an RPC (as I did above). This leads me to believe that there is no reasonable answer to the question at all, because the answer depends on where you look. Do you consider the order the TX have as part of the tree or the order the RPC command returns as valid?

Maybe someone with a better understanding of this can chime in here. My final answer would be that there is no reasonable answer and for the matter of the game it should just be defined what is to be understood as the "correct" order.
legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 1403
copper member
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1499
No I dont escrow anymore.
Timestamps don't matter. The 1st transaction is the coinbase and it's ordered by position.

Code:
bitcoin-cli getblock 00000000000000000b1b86c3fd4a7076b4a45093fd57522c8b059cd8a2bd84c0

returns:

Code:
{
    "hash" : "00000000000000000b1b86c3fd4a7076b4a45093fd57522c8b059cd8a2bd84c0",
    "confirmations" : 86,
    "size" : 749142,
    "height" : 354111,
    "version" : 2,
    "merkleroot" : "44e1929bfb254889e02e3d53f3edd6ccb6cfbf07c30e0212212b548f52f62aef",
    "tx" : [
        "886e9d6ae5744750fdab2191eb388efb448194795ae5db1d33b263901051206b",
        "f120ace5971fe48dc216ae9a0f90dadd0fc270c0d6c09b3b564caae82a24df95",
        "6983f35622e6693545cedc66bb8e1bfd8a32617b568b34ddcead426117c0dc02",
        "4a7a6473fb8d140cebbb311d265a65b4fad8c0021bb2ad5ad17b6893db421c4a",
        "ee1b654b06ccd8170c629d88db681079a1e9c6be3c6519dcb5efe708a1f0982f",
        "2916dc4633e0ba71751ac66a0db4b9ffa3ba66637ea4bfe19aff0242a1e6fa88",
        "16a7823de40894451524fe208611dbf5f5519dc214c0a35511c9e5cde0126102",
        "6f6c9dabcaa2af2b0e53d7d1d53c58f774e251a3b02864ec103373f24a83f432",
        "b385b7d18865c29845bbb41d7d5c9fcecdfd78a7422ae5459f74657ea8e88a82",
-removed plenty TX due to the 64000 char limit per post-
        "5a5a50d83e1bb7596ec72dc8df6939745b0e20646a6434ac9ac0610220019d65",
        "821d1acc0010ce1833705bf15058c4b6a3f64cbc8af379af1212045ddc5a294e",
        "e6d7009466c795a660a055134591701a77db0eea4f85e38f2fbf5c0a2ae8a14a",
        "1a69fb6bdf506318b4eedd9c8fa59b8deebaf3b76d6d162ad9faade0867d6fa4",
        "cf5761362c3283eeb4bed1519e2b5c1a58257a9514a80792ecfe95f0d8297195",
        "8f6fabc1230086cc1ed75407b1a084cc8549417014294d4c74b38baff4216c4a",
        "0f2d69f3540fda4ee6121cfdfe76ffbae2f11580767c84fbf67d98db1287bb4a",
        "4e5eba322877d181e25c0460e43e2d752948c283a734871cd18a3533f8733c30",
        "67716265ebddf81cad0c76d6fd88a27de702bea0a092d0020b86ee7dd3e0c8a6",
        "39ea7a815b93559653f644b4b3a91442670ab80811096b74bb861516f3bdf300",
        "f7a18224283aeed106ef47383bbf275240836dbc87f825065a1724c8a6b9ae81",
        "79faec0f83cc98c80e05cc2bde38addcab3aaa9b7c2b6779afba879b582dd9f3",
        "ff12a6bcdfc47cd66ee4c78433e49a11659d682debb718fbdc6ac6b6193c9379",
        "68a115486e2e752c7129c1e56a090eb9356e1eff00414a982731f2da69230146",
        "3c1fa10c6a757a916435ab0721d6ca40a7d75e593bc7e6fbdfa660b2b945885f",
        "e5232c7b3ecb3132d9c03cf5026246eb05c10dfd42c596ac69bebc53480606ec",
        "91af7fb95cec6185eedeee3df44de72f598d907d46f09f8bcda84335734bbf4f",
        "bdf9f8d4ef1ee7b98088f2608ddff8d6b05c49a61dfc98609c7ecd8e0acaa147",
        "ef6ca83d587ef06c9e7e54b47f1ab30ed649ee2479de0d60d7addef5d37c5c01",
        "48355e0970ac69fa108f57f9a6415305879c0a7025bae957db3a16313ae1bfe8",
        "ac485b0ef3d48512f9e485cfd6430cacdc4da59c817bd9fc77897624cc66ad89",
        "10bbefdbf4f40e3be739001129f1cbca2c045f1a528f5ed0a64e2fedd99199ef",
        "1d8ee07a92cd594fb73d11f6df06b77855359b6fe63acdd2a1082c71c9f12e38",
        "d6f5fca91a2f883d3942873ce214808995c460c4caf306576ae37cbe3b3a4579",
        "4f98df067bbbbf099e2cf9ef1c5f0409598ff4a1ef752c47ecd76d15c2d1d3e0",
        "a8eb1c990eaa2c0aa3693aa04f6d2f42419801aece5f958dad1aee7b29dd152b",
        "87b10c67a44d2f15600a9856e3e3b490863c54e56d367f5072ba1a3984e36753",
        "8ce34a9a34b96ebac53e0c6f281eb407bb5732d6415175f754897177b400cfff",
        "13ed24bd6089aec4412210717529224957ffc6e5e02d3332c37e69c42c584ebd",
        "f01a04f3a404d2ba8bb52abd9701cfcf965561bc8077d3ee275e3340d8673d6a",
        "53a074de1ed16178acd2a4eb33ca185791b3fd617c052f1e255aa92a43b5bdbb",
        "e7b0f898240a171b7a63230a9dec280f20bc46133d6e9fff9f8c722171dd4787",
        "9f8970bcb47b5705e25e19a6551657115be8fbdeea22b160c95cd08ef66d85b7",
        "ddf755735529cf3de8f9d52226957b10fbc5c69f3eac418e07391cdcc6fa5ade",
        "c23147be01c378782682c9d2cdf0cd76355269a730e8689ec85c4e321f83ddaf",
        "a40a24a9eced8374fdb8e6bfeb950254945a34b1490871d796cf8bd6514e84fa",
        "9379c2ba52d3e01dcc809c91b6c894c0bc11d5305436049fbb1a1a118d40e9ee",
        "f057ea998398a8b448b90b525da0b886bd1e6660e8e9482d9acc1f127e0a7935",
        "086ab5ec68999084affaae59244978ac6e5ab962de63d5a0ecb6d175cd6c2651",
        "3d0fd4512d937c1ef4865d19e4d231b6f88640964ab60b4102aed920736d39b6",
        "2ddd74474ae13d9537400921d0aa43b08d0ca799c7f9b4f123d373e65763a6c0",
        "be2dba04d3e4b03fa2b6b5469c42f8b0425ec9f605cabfd353180153dfc8b579",
        "fae26a407882e3def04621afe52b22a6198c471b7a70125b8823283e01e8244e",
        "62c42e9ebe193a3301564299abbd8281ef3a41bf37bc61142d9450d951af3be7",
        "6259881277bef59a75125c7bbb4975dc8ff0f2a1f4eaa6d7045d0fae3f197e6b",
        "a06a012ddf04c2da69afbd668ebf1cae8c2af572b86bacc49344cbc8b599ba75",
        "6c81be350ccafdc6f48f8e518db1e4d2d4bd2e049b261c77e4a231be063998a2",
        "38da82a0dadf50181210b5abd45bd2bc21dd4f9e5af249fe30aaca984a3074d3",
        "90cbb3e9f4db2dcfda14ea5dc4f87dc864066a5699ad1cd34712e813c4c0118c",
        "7c472500c47dda20a75e670b9ec947963015457d4d553d1777dc43f24758fb5b",
        "0337a7a37516822e43093c62737e150f855c4eba752831717a09c49ec0c345b2",
        "62fa305379ffdc6023052475dc7ab9c1afdcfe50fc80b0bd8f2d2a118f51a780",
        "2ea0d7bac55a428ab4b0f0e62f0f527dbf167d755742503e430381bd51923edf",
        "e594832404ad4d0d4133a66667be02abeaba46854a2e952f3dabe8d45975767e",
        "8f1a7cae0d34fa031f92e072fb020e5011dd08e3cd545be8022f1da1d79491c5",
        "c0c4f1bb9e555904eec21d3e8cdb705ae826a84f05195c56a387fa10546cfae1",
        "201615d5bf3d42c81f41b920c7eb944ba1a2ef1040e6d791899cdeecc507e5a2",
        "5a3723276a8fe11ba01d7affbca0816ad1c1ba8af36a12b8970d69622eac0a20",
        "2f8a39df0f71a63ff9d92b273e2d7d8aba756b467f25c9a425ab41a839d955be",
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        "3693245c20ec9308e121a0accb12ff7a1d7bc1b33f8644e3a56dd87d2c0be9fe",
        "b485492c7c29ac830c635706249daf52779353898f9c89767d3dee2d81896fc5",
        "3a93e251c2d439875986b9c3a9a5101df6a41cec8414cba79259a5967ae3a105",
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        "51fbbbdf739ae52b57fe175b83f8ae95bbcdd1f447187cebf85556321a472857",
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        "d9a7c7a95ece6a24730496c2ceba788c390d3f886ea25468843ad1f264c472c0",
        "67ac048c698eadb31ab15c3569496804fa7774ddd02e8b77c815267b22da1f98",
        "a76ccd3fede2fe5b1596b92455238844ae5c10afbac8891e65f9258b671661ef",
        "8412b3092f61bf6d0d4a781b12b3f1d4a89ebd31b55750cb5ec4056bf7fbf293",
        "b25db38ab2f77dec34c48fca413a166d6a52064c947992ae62988e8b0f4224de",
        "7043069b14a837961b4d71833867c8b9555b89d17e7d79ea2f6e66216008ff89",
        "e6de2ae046501857caed8f8322ba0161d13db691760a3d0aab396b31ee505ba9",
        "515613b3e1a58ad9b0c8026bd072968e0834e70cd5e2b40497392aa5c206cf87",
        "39d2c940467da8a546f5bf29216d416f5961df8044f897d94ca4b17c6876ed18",
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        "4add09c9684f7f2656e9f09b1ecfe18d2ced1a56d28d8099b30bd7d51008c78c",
        "a6b064364c75c18533334e9f6fc7521dd627e77f5781e891b6d8d4536b3c9fd9",
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        "a66d7ccf81608fb410f21c2259678e501792c51446024358666b1a9516a14468",
        "372783b05b9a140b5dc97a4eeafc544195ac47665481ef24486faeeeb6d6b27d",
        "580c975ed5fd0b90326250bb4d02349e62017d06ea30d693938de92685b21a94",
        "995ec509f99853922e7fed476cc2dbba85aef8d2a138a8b83d5a824f58ab511b",
        "ccec66d3834d24d4cb5838580bd39010ca18f2375e3e600d58eb365ca25ad774",
        "4096def7f3b4ad17a46d207c957851aa607f5383f7f1c563b54344b1000b4ffe",
        "abcb23262bd56a8fe0f301cdafb0f5f088fc6e13bd042a0286317cf40e08ac40",
        "2b075dea69832d4458677d0c1bf42db9aa00d0504a828b12bc97666b84e42ac0",
        "b92b2bb2b3ecc9e07a5ae82fe297b5f83de61cc115194effe4499fdc9e8136cc",
        "deb2d63e1a94c94c7b19a2210ae2aa2587d4e5047d25891d8bc918b9a315a189",
        "028df7ae218798fa606dc402956b7404edf5d8de1b62bda7fee9d775be06362d",
        "56ee057a676dd422b7cd3611cd9bd79c71d49237223594c402b30691d928cd69",
        "1cb6ce589625ac8d0df9fcea840ed6ce86e207b25230d738f1318f16a6230144",
        "d909c29134bbfe015d6dc14aad3ba00d53c01b8d8d18bbaefa1cbf0562b622c0",
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        "27bfb5de9229443f780008b946ca3bd0a6cae09a337578463d29d7c506a03843",
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    ],
    "time" : 1430235908,
    "nonce" : 1682152691,
    "bits" : "181717f0",
    "difficulty" : 47610564513.47126007,
    "chainwork" : "000000000000000000000000000000000000000000067cbc46ab2db8fb478780",
    "previousblockhash" : "000000000000000011488c933ae5aea4eb836f069eb96d661251f69068d00551",
    "nextblockhash" : "000000000000000012610a8881bd4e8a606d2160bbb54388d7a4bc495b43da98"
}

Thus as hhanh00 said, coinbase is the 1st tx[1] and this[2] the last. Coinbase is always the 1st TX AFAIK and after that its up to the miner who they are sorting the TX. If they follow default settings they are sorted by priority and fee.

For the sake of your game I would just clearly define what you understand as the "correct" order.

[1] https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/886e9d6ae5744750fdab2191eb388efb448194795ae5db1d33b263901051206b
[2] https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/7286f8af06bb9fb6e971d678dd13e96c5be1535dbb816b7de21f8e6e7e434191
sr. member
Activity: 467
Merit: 266
Timestamps don't matter. The 1st transaction is the coinbase and it's ordered by position.
legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 1403
The first transaction that got included in that block was 7286f8af06bb9fb6e971d678dd13e96c5be1535dbb816b7de21f8e6e7e434191 and the last transaction that got included in that block is obviously the coinbase tx in this case 886e9d6ae5744750fdab2191eb388efb448194795ae5db1d33b263901051206b.I didn't really understood the question so I am not sure if I answered it.Is that what you were looking for?

thats what I thought exactly, the last transaction was the newly generated coins IMO so the list should be in descending order (the last to the first)

Well Not really sure myself, I basically just wanted some clarification on those who understand this since I was playing some game here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/last-bet-wins-closed-stop-sending-your-bets-1040815

The OP claim that the last bet (last transaction to 1betTVGPkDEMpFL2L7tMUx7yQaBA9sRu6 ) on that block was the one on the lower part of the list since it , IMO I thought it should be that on the top part of the list since the newly generated coins was the last transaction for that block
hero member
Activity: 935
Merit: 1002
The first transaction that got included in that block was 7286f8af06bb9fb6e971d678dd13e96c5be1535dbb816b7de21f8e6e7e434191 and the last transaction that got included in that block is obviously the coinbase tx in this case 886e9d6ae5744750fdab2191eb388efb448194795ae5db1d33b263901051206b.I didn't really understood the question so I am not sure if I answered it.Is that what you were looking for?
legendary
Activity: 2520
Merit: 1403
As per the title , I wish to know how to determine which one is the last and the first transaction on 1 block and is the list is in ascending order or descending order

i.e https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000b1b86c3fd4a7076b4a45093fd57522c8b059cd8a2bd84c0

The list is scrambled and the timestamp doesnt indicate which transaction was the first and which is the last . Some clarification about this block things is needed . Thankyou very much for the consideration
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