Topic: Questions from a beginner (Read 1126 times)

Quote from: Hatcher on March 06, 2017, 04:12:52 PM

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro

Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

First of all, your line of reasoning is fallacious because it implies that miners will be benefited if the bitcoin supply is increased but this could not be further from the truth. The reason why there is no conspiracy to increase this limit is because we are all able to follow the chain of consequences that this action would bring about, which you seem unable to do. An increase of the limit of bitcoins would violate the core principles of bitcoin (that of a deflationary decentralized cryptocurrency) which is why people are interested in the first place, which would in turn decrease the value of bitcoin. So no, this would not benefit the miners whatsoever.

lol

Politicians have a lot of money and they still choose to print more money, do you think they would do that if it was bad for them? lol

Bitcoin will work the same way when 21 million limit is reached

Bitcoin is not run by politicians.

Human motivation is the same
Wait until its reached and lets see what will happen, it will reach around 2033 right?
So before 2040 will become a "consensus" that this limit needs to increase
For sure

All that is for sure, is that you have revealed your stupidity.
Go do some more reading, you have no understanding of Bitcoin.

xaioret

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Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: xaioret on March 06, 2017, 04:09:48 PM

Quote from: xaioret on March 06, 2017, 04:09:48 PM

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro

Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

First of all, your line of reasoning is fallacious because it implies that miners will be benefited if the bitcoin supply is increased but this could not be further from the truth. The reason why there is no conspiracy to increase this limit is because we are all able to follow the chain of consequences that this action would bring about, which you seem unable to do. An increase of the limit of bitcoins would violate the core principles of bitcoin (that of a deflationary decentralized cryptocurrency) which is why people are interested in the first place, which would in turn decrease the value of bitcoin. So no, this would not benefit the miners whatsoever.

lol

Politicians have a lot of money and they still choose to print more money, do you think they would do that if it was bad for them? lol

Bitcoin will work the same way when 21 million limit is reached

Bitcoin is not run by politicians.

Human motivation is the same

Wait until its reached and lets see what will happen, it will reach around 2033 right?

So before 2040 will become a "consensus" that this limit needs to increase

For sure

Hatcher

full member

Activity: 369

Merit: 111

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro

Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

First of all, your line of reasoning is fallacious because it implies that miners will be benefited if the bitcoin supply is increased but this could not be further from the truth. The reason why there is no conspiracy to increase this limit is because we are all able to follow the chain of consequences that this action would bring about, which you seem unable to do. An increase of the limit of bitcoins would violate the core principles of bitcoin (that of a deflationary decentralized cryptocurrency) which is why people are interested in the first place, which would in turn decrease the value of bitcoin. So no, this would not benefit the miners whatsoever.

lol

Politicians have a lot of money and they still choose to print more money, do you think they would do that if it was bad for them? lol

Bitcoin will work the same way when 21 million limit is reached

Bitcoin is not run by politicians.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Hatcher on March 06, 2017, 03:50:27 PM

...
So if is good for the miners and all of miners agree they can "print" as many bitcoins as they want
Right?
Seems to me exactly the same as government money

You don't understand the scope of "all the miners". There are miners in China, huge factories there. Miners in America, miners in Sweden, miners here, miners there. You're not going to convince everyone to increase the supply of bitcoins, since it will have devastating effects on the value and strength of bitcoin which is why they are mining it in the first place.

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro
Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them
Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol
You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

You don't understand the whole Bitcoin system.

Most simply for you:
If miners make more coins, they lose those coins and we all see what they did.
You can not print more money the way governments currently do, it is much harder in Bitcoin.

xaioret

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: xaioret on March 06, 2017, 04:03:13 PM

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro

Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

First of all, your line of reasoning is fallacious because it implies that miners will be benefited if the bitcoin supply is increased but this could not be further from the truth. The reason why there is no conspiracy to increase this limit is because we are all able to follow the chain of consequences that this action would bring about, which you seem unable to do. An increase of the limit of bitcoins would violate the core principles of bitcoin (that of a deflationary decentralized cryptocurrency) which is why people are interested in the first place, which would in turn decrease the value of bitcoin. So no, this would not benefit the miners whatsoever.

lol

Politicians have a lot of money and they still choose to print more money, do you think they would do that if it was bad for them? lol

Bitcoin will work the same way when 21 million limit is reached

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3528

Merit: 4945

Your post will become a meme in 2040 Cheesy

Why wait until 2040? Why not make it a meme now?

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3528

Merit: 4945

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

It doesn't need to be "respected". It only needs to be enforced.

If you want bitcoin to remain at a limit of 21 million, all you need to do is run a node and a miner. So long as there is at least 1 node and 1 miner that are enforcing the 21 million limit, bitcoin will continue to exist with a 21 million limit. You can stop the whole world from changing it all by yourself if you want to. Sure, they can create their own inflate-a-coin bitcoin fork, but the original bitcoin with the 21 million limit will still exist and could still be used by those that believe in it.

Then people can decide if they prefer to use your 21 million limit bitcoin that you are still running, or the other inflate-a-coin bitcoin that others are using.

Hatcher

full member

Activity: 369

Merit: 111

Quote from: ebliever on March 06, 2017, 03:54:50 PM

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro

Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

First of all, your line of reasoning is fallacious because it implies that miners will be benefited if the bitcoin supply were increased but this could not be further from the truth. The reason why there is no conspiracy to increase this limit is because we are all able to follow the chain of consequences that this action would bring about, which you seem unable to do. An increase of the limit of bitcoins would violate the core principles of bitcoin (that of a deflationary decentralized cryptocurrency) which is why people are interested in the first place, which would in turn decrease the value of bitcoin. So no, this would not benefit the miners whatsoever.

xaioret

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: ebliever on March 06, 2017, 03:33:53 PM

So if is good for the miners and all of miners agree they can "print" as many bitcoins as they want

Right?

Seems to me exactly the same as government money

Eight years of actual experience proves the opposite, as per my post above. Yes, there is no violation of the Laws of Nature involved in changing the number of bitcoins. But it is not going to happen. If I were a gambler I'd offer this: you pay me a dollar a day for every day the bitcoin limit stays at the current limit, until I pay you $1,000,000 the day it changes. Would you take such a bet?

Your post will become a meme in 2040 Cheesy

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3528

Merit: 4945

For the last two years the bitcoin community has been locked into a civil war over the best way to increase transaction capacity

You are mistaken.

People have been arguing about how to increase transaction capacity for at least 7 years. Satoshi himself was disagreeing with others about it in 2010.

Quote from: xaioret on March 06, 2017, 03:34:21 PM

I am very pessimistic about the future of bitcoin now

Wont buy it

That's ok. You don't have to buy it if you don't want to.

Bitcoin is a voluntary system. You don't have to use it fi you don't want to. The rest of us will continue using it if we choose to.

xaioret

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: Hatcher on March 06, 2017, 03:50:27 PM

Quote from: Hatcher on March 06, 2017, 03:43:18 PM

so I am assuming that this 21 million limit which is sold to the general public as a "golden rule" is not as golden

if reaches consensus it can be changed so bitcoin is just like any government money, government money is printed with "reached consensus" also (considering that democracy is a consensus)

bitcoin is sold to general public as something that will never have the same inflation as government money but it works the same if can be changed with "consensus"

the argument that "people who have bitcoin they will not agree to print more bitcoin" does not make sense and is a fallacy

government also have a lot of money so they would never print more of this money if this logic was true

and when I talk about "regular user" I mean the everyday normal guy, someone who doesnt even know what a Node is

so majority of Nodes is still a very very minority of all people who uses bitcoin

Consensus is not a trivial issue: the network hash rate is spread across the globe with many large mining operations having different ideals. If you want consensus, you have to convince (an overwhelming majority of) these various mining factories to change their method of operation to agree with you.

So if is good for the miners and all of miners agree they can "print" as many bitcoins as they want

Right?

Seems to me exactly the same as government money

You don't understand the scope of "all the miners". There are miners in China, huge factories there. Miners in America, miners in Sweden, miners here, miners there. You're not going to convince everyone to increase the supply of bitcoins, since it will have devastating effects on the value and strength of bitcoin which is why they are mining it in the first place.

European Union Parliament also have people from many different countries and this people are influenced by Millions of people from all these coutries who can talk to them and all of them uses the money Euro

Even with this millions of people from different places discussing they still choose the option to print more Euro, and they all use Euro so they think its a good thing for them

Seems to me a very ingenous idea that the 21 million limit will be respected lol

You really dont know Economics, motivations, big scale money theory

ebliever

legendary

Activity: 1708

Merit: 1040

So if is good for the miners and all of miners agree they can "print" as many bitcoins as they want

Right?

Seems to me exactly the same as government money

Eight years of actual experience proves the opposite, as per my post above. Yes, there is no violation of the Laws of Nature involved in changing the number of bitcoins. But it is not going to happen. If I were a gambler I'd offer this: you pay me a dollar a day for every day the bitcoin limit stays at the current limit, until I pay you $1,000,000 the day it changes. Would you take such a bet?

Hatcher

full member

Activity: 369

Merit: 111

Quote from: Hatcher on March 06, 2017, 03:43:18 PM

Quote from: Hatcher on March 06, 2017, 03:43:18 PM

so I am assuming that this 21 million limit which is sold to the general public as a "golden rule" is not as golden

if reaches consensus it can be changed so bitcoin is just like any government money, government money is printed with "reached consensus" also (considering that democracy is a consensus)

bitcoin is sold to general public as something that will never have the same inflation as government money but it works the same if can be changed with "consensus"

the argument that "people who have bitcoin they will not agree to print more bitcoin" does not make sense and is a fallacy

government also have a lot of money so they would never print more of this money if this logic was true

and when I talk about "regular user" I mean the everyday normal guy, someone who doesnt even know what a Node is

so majority of Nodes is still a very very minority of all people who uses bitcoin

Consensus is not a trivial issue: the network hash rate is spread across the globe with many large mining operations having different ideals. If you want consensus, you have to convince (an overwhelming majority of) these various mining factories to change their method of operation to agree with you.

So if is good for the miners and all of miners agree they can "print" as many bitcoins as they want

Right?

Seems to me exactly the same as government money

You don't understand the scope of "all the miners". There are miners in China, huge factories over there. Miners in America, miners in Sweden, miners here, miners there. You're not going to convince everyone to increase the supply of bitcoins, since it will have devastating effects on the value and strength of bitcoin which is why they are mining it in the first place.

xaioret

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

so I am assuming that this 21 million limit which is sold to the general public as a "golden rule" is not as golden

if reaches consensus it can be changed so bitcoin is just like any government money, government money is printed with "reached consensus" also (considering that democracy is a consensus)

bitcoin is sold to general public as something that will never have the same inflation as government money but it works the same if can be changed with "consensus"

the argument that "people who have bitcoin they will not agree to print more bitcoin" does not make sense and is a fallacy

government also have a lot of money so they would never print more of this money if this logic was true

and when I talk about "regular user" I mean the everyday normal guy, someone who doesnt even know what a Node is

so majority of Nodes is still a very very minority of all people who uses bitcoin

Consensus is not a trivial issue: the network hash rate is spread across the globe with many large mining operations having different ideals. If you want consensus, you have to convince (an overwhelming majority of) these various mining factories to change their method of operation to agree with you.

So if is good for the miners and all of miners agree they can "print" as many bitcoins as they want

Right?

Seems to me exactly the same as government money

Hatcher

full member

Activity: 369

Merit: 111

Quote from: calkob on March 06, 2017, 03:29:13 PM

so I am assuming that this 21 million limit which is sold to the general public as a "golden rule" is not as golden

if reaches consensus it can be changed so bitcoin is just like any government money, government money is printed with "reached consensus" also (considering that democracy is a consensus)

bitcoin is sold to general public as something that will never have the same inflation as government money but it works the same if can be changed with "consensus"

the argument that "people who have bitcoin they will not agree to print more bitcoin" does not make sense and is a fallacy

government also have a lot of money so they would never print more of this money if this logic was true

and when I talk about "regular user" I mean the everyday normal guy, someone who doesnt even know what a Node is

so majority of Nodes is still a very very minority of all people who uses bitcoin

Consensus is not a trivial issue: the network hash rate is spread across the globe with many large mining operations having different ideals. If you want consensus, you have to convince (an overwhelming majority of) these various mining factories to change their method of operation to agree with you.

xaioret

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

Quote from: xaioret on March 06, 2017, 01:50:45 PM

Hi, I have some question that I didnt find the answer anywhere

which code decides the difficulty of mining?

can this code be changed?

if yes, by who?

the 21 million is really a limit or theres some change on the code that can allow lower difficulty and more mining?

Kind Regards

The code within the bitcoin Client is what decides the consensus rules. Anything in bitcoin can be changed, but that does not mean it will be or should be. The 21,000,000 bitcoin is a rule that will never change, i have never even heard of an argument for it being changed, although i am sure there is some idiot out there. Changing the limit on the amount of bitcoin would devalue all current bitcoins.

Yes it devalues

So why government prints money if it devalues the currency that he "government" has?

The politicians all have a lot of government money themselfs so why they allow to print more if their money will be devalued?

Have you never thought about it?

Increasing the monetary base is very good for the people with lots of this money eventhough it devalues the money, it gives more good things than bad things to the ones with power over this money

If this "21 million rule" can be broken it will be, who says the opposite doesnt know enough of Economics

I am sad because I thought there was some way to prevent this and really ensure that 21 million will be the limit, but with your answers I am very pessimistic about the future of bitcoin now

Wont buy it

ebliever

legendary

Activity: 1708

Merit: 1040

Quote from: xaioret on March 06, 2017, 01:50:45 PM

so I am assuming that this 21 million limit which is sold to the general public as a "golden rule" is not as golden

if reaches consensus it can be changed so bitcoin is just like any government money, government money is printed with "reached consensus" also (considering that democracy is a consensus)

bitcoin is sold to general public as something that will never have the same inflation as government money but it works the same if can be changed with "consensus"

the argument that "people who have bitcoin they will not agree to print more bitcoin" does not make sense and is a fallacy

government also have a lot of money so they would never print more of this money if this logic was true

and when I talk about "regular user" I mean the everyday normal guy, someone who doesnt even know what a Node is

so majority of Nodes is still a very very minority of all people who uses bitcoin

For the last two years the bitcoin community has been locked into a civil war over the best way to increase transaction capacity, which has no (direct) bearing on the economics of bitcoin. Diluting bitcoins by changing the 21 million limit would create a firestorm a hundred times greater. But that won't happen because virtually no one is dumb enough to propose such a thing, and they will be ignored/reviled if they did.

We have a track record now of 8 years and counting, which shows that bitcoin is far more conservative than fiat currency issued by central banks when it comes to any consideration of jacking with the monetary supply. That should give people some confidence. I know that if anyone ever does get traction demanding a change in the 21 million coins, I'm going to rush to the exits - and trying to beat the general stampede to do the same, which means my tolerance for such talk is going to be pretty low.

calkob

hero member

Activity: 1106

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Hi, I have some question that I didnt find the answer anywhere

which code decides the difficulty of mining?

can this code be changed?

if yes, by who?

the 21 million is really a limit or theres some change on the code that can allow lower difficulty and more mining?

Kind Regards

The code within the bitcoin Client is what decides the consensus rules. Anything in bitcoin can be changed, but that does not mean it will be or should be. The 21,000,000 bitcoin is a rule that will never change, i have never even heard of an argument for it being changed, although i am sure there is some idiot out there. Changing the limit on the amount of bitcoin would devalue all current bitcoins.

xaioret

newbie

Activity: 11

Merit: 0

so I am assuming that this 21 million limit which is sold to the general public as a "golden rule" is not as golden

if reaches consensus it can be changed so bitcoin is just like any government money, government money is printed with "reached consensus" also (considering that democracy is a consensus)

bitcoin is sold to general public as something that will never have the same inflation as government money but it works the same if can be changed with "consensus"

the argument that "people who have bitcoin they will not agree to print more bitcoin" does not make sense and is a fallacy

government also have a lot of money so they would never print more of this money if this logic was true

and when I talk about "regular user" I mean the everyday normal guy, someone who doesnt even know what a Node is

so majority of Nodes is still a very very minority of all people who uses bitcoin

DannyHamilton

legendary

Activity: 3528

Merit: 4945

so if "reaches consensus" it can be created more than 21 million bitcoin?

Yes. If you can convince me, and all the other people who will NEVER agree with you to all run your code, then you can have more than 21 million bitcoins. There are far too many people that would rather see bitcoin collapse and fail than increase that limit. It isn't going to happen.

you can estimate how many people need to agree to make such a thing?

No. It doesn't matter. There are MANY that won't agree. It isn't going to happen.

if the coders and the nodes decide that theres nothing the "regular user" can do?

The regular user can refuse to use the new software. They can refuse to do business with merchants that use the new software. They can refuse to use exchanges that use the new software.

Merchants and exchanges need to make a profit. If the users refuse to do business with them, they will switch back to the software the users want them to use.

The regular user can also run a node to enforce the current rules so that the miners will be afraid to change software. If a miner (or mining pool) mines a block that the nodes reject they lose all the bitcoins that they mined.