Topic: Rand Paul: We Must Demilitarize the Police (Read 2288 times)

What an idiot... The relative area covered by your thumbnail increases as the distance to your target is increased, it's called trig... You can pretend that a pistol round won't reach out 100 yards but you sound like an idiot to anybody who actually knows anything or has any real experience. I've been shooting since I was 7 years old and it's a passion of mine. I can tell you from plenty of experience that a thumbnail sized target window is the same difficulty at 100 yards as it is at 50 yards and also happens to be roughly the same apparent size as a human torso at 25 yards. Basically if you can hit a human sized target at 25 yards, you can hit a target the size of a garage door at 100 yards. Either way, it's far from a random trajectory.

Who said all wounds are lethal? You're like an immature child crying about getting chocolate ice-cream when you only wanted vanilla. You're making things up that nobody said and using them as if they were spoken previously.

If you can't put a bullet in a target the size of a garage door at 100 yards then nobody would want you in a foxhole next to them. You should probably just carry a knife...

I'm happy to be on your ignore list, you're a stubborn ass who can't even conceptualize how even large objects appear smaller as they get further away, and who thinks that guns fire in random trajectories unless fired by robots, oh and they only hit targets less than 100 yards away unless they came out of a sniper rifle. Good riddance...

100 yards (when the effective maximum 2-hand hold range for the average pistolier is 50m/54.68yd)? Jesus H CHRIST.

I treat all guns as if they are always loaded, whether their wounds are "all" lethal or not.

Now it's clear from your posting history that you're either full of shit, or you're an operator expecting everyone to be as proficient a shooter as you. Welcome to my ignore list, Pete. I hope you won't hold it against me when we're in the foxhole. Oh, who am I kidding, you'll be in a sniper's nest taking out targets from 1.55 miles (a tenth of a mile over the world record) away...

If a person loads .22 cal snake shot in the chamber, puts the barrel against their skull, then pulls the trigger, it will likely be a fatal wound.

Guns are designed to fire projectiles of a certain caliber. Those projectiles carry the potential energy to cause damage consistent with at least the minimum requirements to be considered lethal force.

Jon-Erik Hexum died in 1984 as a result of an accidental self-inflicted blank cartridge gunshot wound to the head.

But blanks don't count anyways and aren't even in the same category as far as I'm concerned...

I'm not aware of any non-lethal caliber...

Every gun should be treated as a lethal weapon. Carelessness or disregard for that fact is one of the biggest reasons people are accidentally killed with guns.

What gives you this idea that a gun fired from human hands results in a random trajectory? Have you ever even shot a gun before? Hold your right arm straight out in front of you with your thumb raised up and close your left eye; if you can't hit a target within the space occupied by your thumb nail within 100 yards (hand gun or .22LR) or 500 yards (center fire rifle) then you need to spend more time on the range before you should trust yourself to be judicious with your aim in a bad situation. It doesn't take very long to become proficient for somebody without a learning disability or hand-eye coordination problem...

People tend to lose accuracy when rushed with adrenaline, but not to the extent that you're claiming. Firing a gun in a random trajectory sounds pretty irresponsible to me...

Not even all lead bullets are lethal. They can be lethal, if the circumstances are absolutely right (including, but not limited to -in some cases- ineffective, delayed medical care). But the average, effectively random trajectory bullet (as it is fired from a gun in human hands, not a robot or from a clamped/bolted rest) traveling at x FPS is not guaranteed lethal, and according to mortality statistics, the guarantee is closer to being not lethal than lethal, as I said previously.

Cold a rock salt shell be lethal if fired point blank at a vital organ?

This is good advice. 

Sure.  Many, perhaps all.  Bullets are lethal, not guns.

22 cal snake loads, essentially a miniature shotgun shell, have likely never resulted in a fatality.

Rubber bullets are not lethal (although sometimes, rarely, they are)

The old shotgun shell loaded with rock salt is not lethal.

Blanks are not lethal.

Overall, about 13% of gunshot victims die.

There's no backpedaling, I'm simply trying to figure out how anybody can claim that guns are not lethal... I assumed by your post that you misinterpreted my meaning and you actually meant that not all gunshots are lethal to which I agreed; however from your latest post you make it seem as if guns are not lethal and I say you're wrong...

Guns are lethal weapons, swords are lethal weapons, clubs are lethal weapons... Just because somebody survives a wound inflicted by a weapon doesn't declassify that weapon from a status of "lethal."

All guns are lethal, not all gunshots are lethal. Not all guns are blue; I don't see your point...

Please provide proof of a non-lethal caliber gun or there really is no need for you to reply...

I think some of us aren't on the same page when it comes to the meaning of "Demilitarize the Police".  I take that as don't arm them with war weapons and tactics used in times of war on the American people.  Maybe I'm missing something but the point is at times of war people on the battlefield aren't held accountable for their actions and this is the type of things we can see with the police on US soil and this is a problem that needs to be fixed.

This is why if you're going to learn how to use a gun you should train in unarmed combat, fucking noobs

"He grabbed for my gun! Ok, I'll take it out of my retention holster and give it to him, bullets first! {bang bang bang}" Criminal.

"He grabbed for my gun and succeeded at defeating my retention holster, now I'm wrestling him for it before he pulls the trigger {bang}" If physical evidence shows a struggle, not criminal.

"He grabbed for my gun in self-defense after I'd unholstered because he was peacefully disrespecting mah authoritah! {bang... bang bang bang}" Criminal.

Whether or not the person was fighting back is irrelevant, if you have a gun you don't shoot an unarmed person otherwise you're just a murderer, why the fuck is that so hard to understand for some people?

It wasn't my brother, it was one of his fellow brain injury rehab patients.

Just reading what you said before. You said all lethal repeatedly, period, no exceptions. If you had said all guns are blue, that would have been as incorrect as saying "all" guns are lethal. The correlation between guns potentially being painted blue does not cause them to "all" be so, any more than the potential of a gunshot wound being lethal. Now it seems you're backpedaling, so there is no longer a need for me to reply.


Let me try to relate that to my quote.
1) If the officer hadn't apparently got out of his car to be within grabbing range of Mike Brown (who by all accounts, was walking in the street; not a reason to arrest someone) and instead used his PA to tell MB to get on the sidewalk (if there was one), and if MB didn't get out of the street then he could have used his sirens to annoy MB out of it, then used his car to slowly physically usher/block him out of it, then if he still insisted on walking in the street, then the cop could have said "ok dude, it's your right to commit suicide". All this would have been recorded on the dash cam and shown he was reasonable in leaving.
2) If the officer wasn't armed, there would have been no gun to grab for.
3) If people of mixed races were around, they could have been summoned by the cop to stand by to defend his actions, if justified, or MB, if not.

The kid was supposedly fighting back and grabbing the officers gun so it sounds more like a defense case than a murder because he was black case but with the media these days that's how the story will be played.

Honestly Stuff like this needed to be stopped years ago but now is to late unless an outside nation put some pressure on the U.S

The country is getting more dangerous not only because of terrorists but also domestic psychopaths. Demilitarizing the police may not be such a good idea.
 

Legally defenseless police and victims proves unequivocally that your government is run by criminals.

With the tools of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue_and_cry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_comitatus_%28common_law%29

... police could safely be unarmed again by summoning the armed support of the ever-present unorganized militia (the People) to make lawful arrests (if a criminal was able to pull off a crime and escape with no armed victims or witnesses present to shoot and/or non-bloodily arrest him, rare). If the People knew the police were a bunch of civil rights violators trying to frame/kill innocents with zero probable cause or justification, they would laugh at the police, cuff them, and bring them before a magistrate.

Yes indeed. Demilitarize the police and arm them with ice cream cons. Stracciatella favor to be more effective.
And they you will be left wondering why nobody gives a damn about the police and why there will be so many left dead while trying to do their job as crappy as it is.

In my country where police is so weak there are so many cases where the policemen get beaten , spit at and i\m not even approaching the subject on how people talk to them. They are more beggars than police officers.

If they would carry a gun and use it like in the us i think that crime rate and conflicts in the streets will go down by 1000%.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother being shot, that sounds like a terrible experience for you and your family... The survivability of a square shot to the head from a .45 is very low... Miracles do happen but I wouldn't want to take my chances with odds that low...

I think you're misinterpreting me. I never claimed that all gunshots are lethal. I'm stating a fact that all guns can fire lethal shots regardless of the caliber... My mothers uncle was killed in a hunting accident with a .22LR...

Respecting the lethality of a gun is a part of respecting guns and handling them responsibly. Not every gunshot is lethal, but neither is every sword strike, or bomb detonation, or car crash; that's not the point I'm making here...

I'm making a point that even a small gun can be a lethal weapon and a single shot between the eyes from something as small as a .22LR would immediately drop an intruder armed like Rambo with his M60. Even if the wound is survivable, the confrontation is immediately over...

Having a bigger gun won't protect anybody from a smaller one...

The escalation of force has no boundary. There needs to be equilibrium between the police, military, and the people...

Demilitarize? Good luck with that.

Look at all the notable riots. People are opportunistic and there's no better environment to loot and steal than during chaos.

When the benefits stop the leechers will attempt to take as much as they can by force.

The ultimate hedge against SHTF is not gold, silver or bitcoin but weapons, ammo, food and shelter.

Repeatedly saying they're "all" lethal (when mortality rates say they mostly aren't), does not make your claim any more true. Everyone is simply not a sniper waiting for an exact moment when their target is absolutely still, and they have a sufficient platform, ammunition, and firing conditions to achieve the exact shot placement necessary for lethality. Or going to attempt suicide by eating a shotgun loaded with 00 buck (I've seen a FLIR video of this; it's clear that will work every time, even in a rush, as the criminal was about to be discovered by the searching ground cops). Or able to tie their target up and execute them.

P.S. My brother was in brain injury rehab (meaning it didn't just graze him, curve around his skull, or go through soft tissue only, it went through his brain) with someone shot with a .45, the largest caliber average user's handgun. And it didn't surprise me at all to learn of more of the same survivors.

Correction, it's Mitch McConnell's seat that he's going after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_354406555&feature=iv&src_vid=wz_V4lRdtjo&v=CvRJDJcmi5s

Looks like Rand Paul is going to have some serious competition in the next Kentucky Senate race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz_V4lRdtjo

Lethality is based on shot placement, a well placed shot in the head or diaphram (center mass) will be lethal. Guns are all lethal...

Having a larger gun simply minimizes the precision required for shot placement to cause a lethal injury. a .22LR will only cause damage to the tissue in which the projectile contacts while a 30-06 will rupture blood vessels and tear muscle tissue in an 18" radius from the impact site...

Just another pandering politician.  Rand Paul would be singing a different tune if that were his business being looted and burned to the ground.

Most gunshot wounds are survivable, not lethal.

Even suicides attempted with a gun, where you'd think the person could completely control all variables, are not 100% successful.

A bullet fired from a .22 is just as lethal as one fired from a 30-06 when well placed. Bigger guns mean they are more expensive to fire and offer a slightly larger kill zone on a human body... The fact is, all guns are lethal. A criminal with a big gun who faces down a citizen with a small one is no better off for it, neither are police...

If you're looking for something to fear... Check out Chemistry or study Physics; you can't take danger out of life when you exist in a Universe of destructive energy...

Remove guns and you create a power vacuum to be filled with other forms of deadly tools and knowledge. Guns offer a level field and provide an opportunity for survival. In that dreaded moment when only one person will emerge alive, at least having a gun will offer the physically weaker person a fighting chance at being that survivor...

Better live as a well-fed dog than a street dog where you need to fight over other dogs for leftover.

I do. I simply prefer they be given the dignity of not being political pawns for the ruling class or their partisan supporters.

you realize that there's a huge imbalance between the rich and poor, and one ethnic group is part of the rich, while a few minorities consist of the poorer ones right?

The US oppresses anyone not in the ruling class or financial aristocracy. Race and racism chargers are now used as a weapon against anyone that disagrees with the powers that be. The real division in this country is rich and poor. Once we all realize that maybe some real change will happen. 

crime rates and murder/homicide rates are down.. despite the widening gap between the wealthy and the poor. the only thing that can explain that to me is a police state to clean up the mess. also, you can also help the prison industry make more money by locking up as many minorities as you can. all to keep the taxpayers "safe."

Sure, if everyone was genetically modified to Kryptonian DNA.

Yup, big or small government, USA has been oppressing natives, blacks, anyone who didn't come over in the western european colonial wave for centuries.  Surely this is more relevant than big or small government.  Small towns with small governments in USA also have skewed application of criminal justice.

No, the criminals get more violent and even bigger guns and so does the police, and someone profits a lot from this cycle of violence.

The optimal amount of guns in a society is zero.

Only when they turn it into one... When everyone and their mothers can have a rifle, then the criminals must be fearful of everyone and their mothers...

The police need to be very careful not to take on the appearance of a "public enemy" because the public will be more powerful than the police force could ever hope to be. I'm actually glad the police forces have these weapons and vehicles; the police operate on a local level; they would be turned allies of the people in a Revolution (should one ever occur) and those would be valuable assets. However, the use of these weapons and vehicles will be very critical for the public appearance and attitude. The more aggressive they become, the closer they slide the scale towards becoming public enemies and the more unsafe their jobs become...

If they could, and it was, they'd be cannon fodder with those "battle" tactics.

IF that were true, these men would not be standing totally exposed.  They are in a formation designed to prevent unarmed civilians from going past them, by lethal force if necessary.  That is why their weapons are on display, so to speak.  And that is why they are on display.

When everyone and their mothers can have rifles what would you expect?

For the police the street is a battle zone...

there is a large shortage of ammo.. because apparently government bought a bunch of the stock. the more ammo they have means the less commonfolk have. they will be ready.

If you look only at the image, you would think it is the military. But of course, "police" is written on the signs.
When USD collapses, we are very screwed - unfortunately there do not seem to be plans from the government, perhaps the plan is world war 3.  

Yes, this what happened is tragedy, everybody agree with this.
But, I don't agree with this statement:
Anyone who thinks that race does not skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention. And the root of the problem is big government.
In my opinion, based on my experience while living in USA, root of this problem is in long history of slavery and oppression of blacks in America, not because of big government.

Look at the weapons.. dear mother of god when the USD collapses..... We are so screwed...  Perhaps I really should move to New Zeland.

Much more...http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

For the international crowd, the first part of this article is describing the recent police shooting of an unarmed 18yr old black person that was subsequently followed up by looting by out of towners and has been making the press big time.