We're launching a new marketplace in order to fulfill the growing need of having the opportunity to perform BitCoin-Paypal exchange marketplace. We employ direct peer-to-peer Paypal transactions between marketplace members with delivery confirmations sent to marketplace engine by Paypal. that Yes, it's not guaranted that the person you deal with won't want to scam you. No one could get such a guarantee ever from anywhere. Instead, we guarantee that the deal will be either fulfilled properly by both parties or will not happen at all. We also provide our members with detailed information on each party involved so 'go/no-go' decision for a partucular deal should be an easy one.
We did our best to keep fees as low as possible - 0.5% average for the transaction. We collect 1% fee for Buy Limit orders and we let correspondent Sell Market orders to run with 0% fee.
Marketplace is just recently started live and will continue to evolve, improving and extending trading options offered. We've decided to run as invitation-only, so should you be intrested in joining in - contact me here via PM or our support team via 'contact us' link. Kindly be ready to provide proof of trustworthness as a BitCoin trader.
Marketplace home topic https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/otcexchangenet-automated-paypal-btc-marketplace-based-on-p2p-concepts-44031
Topic: Recent Events At Bitcoin Market (Read 26159 times)
So why can we not delete out Paypal address's from our accounts?
Maybe I just don't see how, but every time I try I get a 'no input' error when trying to clear out the payment processor.
Maybe I just don't see how, but every time I try I get a 'no input' error when trying to clear out the payment processor.
just overwrite it with a fake email
no idea whats up with DwDolla, he has been MIA since june 9th.
So why can we not delete out Paypal address's from our accounts?
Maybe I just don't see how, but every time I try I get a 'no input' error when trying to clear out the payment processor.
Maybe I just don't see how, but every time I try I get a 'no input' error when trying to clear out the payment processor.
Yea "currency exchange" definitely needs to be revised in their ToS.
For this reason, I think PayPal is stopping BTC transactions and not other virtual good currencies. If BTC was game currency, they wouldn't care and just take your transaction fees.
For this reason, I think PayPal is stopping BTC transactions and not other virtual good currencies. If BTC was game currency, they wouldn't care and just take your transaction fees.
you cannot directly infer from Paypal's ToS that virtual exchanges are off-limits, they just mention currency exchanges (which must be meant to avoid PP use on Forex sites and the like)
PayPal is Second Life's ONLY payment processor and it's also acceptable at the VirWox exchange, if virtual exchanges were so forbidden you would imagine that at least Linden Labs would have changed their deposit/withdrawal system, no?
PayPal is Second Life's ONLY payment processor and it's also acceptable at the VirWox exchange, if virtual exchanges were so forbidden you would imagine that at least Linden Labs would have changed their deposit/withdrawal system, no?
Thank god Bind doesn't accept PayPal for Crystal Meth on Silk Road
I do not sell Crystal Meth on Silk Road.
Its stated very clearly in paypals acceptable use policy that you must not use paypal for currency exchanges.
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full&locale.x=en_US
That means if you've used paypal in any way connected to currency exchanges (even virtual currency, as confirmed by paypal accounts getting locked for purchasing WoW gold) it's likely to get you in trouble somewhere down the line.
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full&locale.x=en_US
That means if you've used paypal in any way connected to currency exchanges (even virtual currency, as confirmed by paypal accounts getting locked for purchasing WoW gold) it's likely to get you in trouble somewhere down the line.
Thank god Bind doesn't accept PayPal for Crystal Meth on Silk Road
It is not only fraudulent buyers you have to worry about.
You also have to worry about paypal taking in upon themselves to cancel and reverse transactions, which is already ocurring. Heck, even if you gift it, paypal can cancel and reverse it even if the buyer doesnt want it cancelled or reversed.
On a side note, I find it ironic and mildly amusing that people are crying about the fraud and doing so much to attempt to prevent fraud, yet they condone, promote, and suggest comitting fraud in trying to curcumvent the paypal rules.
Anyone trying to use paypal who knows their rules, deserves exacty what outcome paypal decides on based on their rules, in my humble opinion.
You also have to worry about paypal taking in upon themselves to cancel and reverse transactions, which is already ocurring. Heck, even if you gift it, paypal can cancel and reverse it even if the buyer doesnt want it cancelled or reversed.
On a side note, I find it ironic and mildly amusing that people are crying about the fraud and doing so much to attempt to prevent fraud, yet they condone, promote, and suggest comitting fraud in trying to curcumvent the paypal rules.
Anyone trying to use paypal who knows their rules, deserves exacty what outcome paypal decides on based on their rules, in my humble opinion.
Bind you are a negative, suspicious git. The owner of bitcoinmarket never once tried to convince anyone to use paypal or break their terms of service, he put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us. You have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that it was conniving on the part of bitcoinmarket. Of course bcm made money from the transactions, thats how society operates, you provide a service and you get paid for it. You obviously dont run a business like a lot of us here on this forum do.
+1
It's not Dustin
it's not even paypal.
It's a few bad actors.
What it comes down to is that there were scammers using paypal and their TOS to their advantage by stating that they never authorized the transaction or some other claim and PP sides with the buyer.
I used PP on BCM, I bought some coins from numerous sellers.
The only nefarious stuff going on is with the PP buyers and/or their accounts.
This.
We would have the same problems with credit card payments, personal checks, etc. Anyone can fraudulently claim they didn't authorize a transaction, or actually steal credentials in which case the legitimate owner rightly disputes the transaction.
Online vendors especially have been dealing with this issue for quite a while. The current bitcoin exchanges aren't nearly as robust nor do they have the tools to investigate/enforce/prevent this type of fraud compared to other long standing online commerce. This is essentially commodity that can't be tracked being sent between addresses that can't be verified to be associated with relatively anonymous parties that wants to buy or sell. Its the digital equivalent of cash in the mail. Until there are trusted exchanges who actually have the ability to back their assertions of trust with something of value BTC related transactions will be the easy target for internet scammers.
Although I was burned on a couple of transactions, it was <10% of my bitcoin transactions over the last couple of weeks. I continue to trade, cautiously, and I hope others will do the same. This is an emerging market and its up to everyone to educate themselves on the risks of their transactions and conduct business accordingly. Providing relative safety for transactions has value and some have already started to attempt to provide this with varying success.
Bind you are nuts.
Do you at least even knew the old site? What went with Paypal and Jed (Mt.Gox's former owner)? The pain in the ass Paypal has being so far, the paypal articles about bitcoin? Newcomers may be caught by PP insanity, but the older users are well aware of what is it.
Regardless it, you come with lawyer BS chick-chat,and I'd been trading for PP for ages now without any issue. This because;
a) The community was smaller and get burned would cause more damage;
b) Bitcoin was way cheaper
Like anything else, PP itself can be ok for low transactions, but if the buyer is a scammer it gives him leverage; still the main issue is the buyer to be a scammer.
Regardless it, you come with lawyer BS chick-chat,and I'd been trading for PP for ages now without any issue. This because;
a) The community was smaller and get burned would cause more damage;
b) Bitcoin was way cheaper
Like anything else, PP itself can be ok for low transactions, but if the buyer is a scammer it gives him leverage; still the main issue is the buyer to be a scammer.
I am posting here not to be a pretend lawyer, but to advise people to shy away from trust services who have shown no regard for the protection or safely of their customers, and offers no reimbursements when, through that trust services own fault and apathy, the customer gets burned.
Yes my posting history is low but I am already listed as a reputable trader in the Marketplace > List of honest traders.
Yes my posting history is low but I am already listed as a reputable trader in the Marketplace > List of honest traders.
I do know the history of BCM. I have successfully traded on BCM. By him placing that other Paypal option on the website and choosing to act as an escrow service for it without advising people of the known risks, he approved its use, condoned its use, and advised its use.
How do you define "well known"?? The risks were NEVER displayed on the BCM website. Were you born with this knowledge? Of course not.
You trust the person you are doing business with. BCM is a trust service. Dwdollar violated that trust and all he says is sorry instead of fixing his mistake. Instead, he screws the customer who lost out becasue of him and his service. Thats the facts.
I agree paypal is certainly the most convenient, but I think we define the term "best" differently.
To me the term "best" in regrds to online financial transaction are inclusive of safe, fast, friendly, and secure.
Paypal is NOT safe, friendly, nor secure in regards to any btc transactions, although it certainly is fast.
I disagree with everything you said but offer nothing in return to dispute it in the spirit of your posting history. How do you define "well known"?? The risks were NEVER displayed on the BCM website. Were you born with this knowledge? Of course not.
You trust the person you are doing business with. BCM is a trust service. Dwdollar violated that trust and all he says is sorry instead of fixing his mistake. Instead, he screws the customer who lost out becasue of him and his service. Thats the facts.
I agree paypal is certainly the most convenient, but I think we define the term "best" differently.
To me the term "best" in regrds to online financial transaction are inclusive of safe, fast, friendly, and secure.
Paypal is NOT safe, friendly, nor secure in regards to any btc transactions, although it certainly is fast.
I will say though you've certainly come to the wrong place to play pretend lawyer.
What Dwdollar suggestion?!
If you don't know the history of BCM why you come here to bash it? It was never a suggestion and risks were well known and advised.
Too bad PP remains as the best thing to buy BTC from the real world (unless you live on US, but NOT the whole world lives at US).
If you don't know the history of BCM why you come here to bash it? It was never a suggestion and risks were well known and advised.
Too bad PP remains as the best thing to buy BTC from the real world (unless you live on US, but NOT the whole world lives at US).
I do know the history of BCM. I have successfully traded on BCM. By him placing that other Paypal option on the website and choosing to act as an escrow service for it without advising people of the known risks, he approved its use, condoned its use, and advised its use.
How do you define "well known"?? The risks were NEVER displayed on the BCM website. Were you born with this knowledge? Of course not.
You trust the person you are doing business with. BCM is a trust service. Dwdollar violated that trust and all he says is sorry instead of fixing his mistake. Instead, the customer lost out because of him and his service. Thats the facts.
I agree paypal is certainly the most convenient, but I think we define the term "best" differently.
To me the term "best" in regrds to online financial transaction are inclusive of safe, fast, friendly, and secure.
Paypal is NOT safe, friendly, nor secure in regards to any btc transactions, although it certainly is fast.
What Dwdollar suggestion?!
If you don't know the history of BCM why you come here to bash it? It was never a suggestion and risks were well known and advised.
Too bad PP remains as the best thing to buy BTC from the real world (unless you live on US, but NOT the whole world lives at US).
If you don't know the history of BCM why you come here to bash it? It was never a suggestion and risks were well known and advised.
Too bad PP remains as the best thing to buy BTC from the real world (unless you live on US, but NOT the whole world lives at US).
Bind, some things you do not understand.
And if BCM resumes PP support, I will resume using it. I have no other option.
And if BCM resumes PP support, I will resume using it. I have no other option.
I understand completely.
If you choose those risks that is one thing.
But if you do it without knowledge of that risk at BitCoinMarket's suggestion, then its quite another.
Bind, some things you do not understand.
And if BCM resumes PP support, I will resume using it. I have no other option.
And if BCM resumes PP support, I will resume using it. I have no other option.
The owner ... put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us.
and its against paypal terms of service ... it should never had been an option suggested by bitcoinmarket to begin with knowing they would terminate sales ... additionally bitcoinmarket never stated using paypal was against there tos when he knew full well it was agains the payal tos, which is why bitcoinmarket specifically chose not to perform those transactions itself, while never advising their clients they were suggesting it to that it was indeed against the paypal tos ... I believe bitcoinmarket holds a fiduciary responsibility and liability here.
what is Paypal's issue with it? I presently have some open cases with Paypal's large business engagement ghosts trying to find answers to these very things. So far they have been useless, but I'm persisting.
We can speculate until the cows come home, but the fact remains its against the tos. If people did not know it was against the tos we must ask whos fault it is then. The user who lost because they did not read the tos daily, or the one who suggested its use ? Or the ones who knew but went ahead anyway and took a chance. You wont win a paypal dispute concerning bitcoins. Its automatic refund.
Yup, got scammed by b4rrydoyle (5184) too. It's just 20 BTC but still... Hopefully dwdollar can publish the payout address for those scammers so we can start collecting all addresses they're using and start to track them.
How are you going to prove you got scammed and didnt receieve the funds without someone "trusting you" and your word without any official confirmation from paypal? Alterable text or screen shots? Your good word
I know there were new people who didn't fully understand the risks involved. I'm sorry about that. I will make it very explicit if I continue with PayPal.
Thank you for admitting you liability and responsibility by your failure to advise your members that the conduit for exchange you suggest by placing on your site is 100% untrustable, just so you can make a profit.
... yet he is not taking the moral and ethical high road and proper reputable business strategy by refunding your money or bitcoins ...
He might as well be saying, "... sorry folks I caused you to get ripped off, but oh well thats the breaks ..."
My oh my - what a wonderful way to run a business and add reputation to the BitCoin system. /sarcasm
Until he does start acting like a real reputable business and refunds peoples losses caused by him, please avoid dwdollar and BitCoinMarket at all costs. He doesnt care about you or the BitCoin System ... he cares only about the BitCoins and cash he can skim off of you. Please use a reputable exchange.
I won't waste my time with trolls, but I know there were new people who didn't fully understand the risks involved. I'm sorry about that. I will make it very explicit if I continue with PayPal. The whole point of having multiple currency pairs is to allow the market to determine the inherent risk involved with each one.
Here are the withdrawing addresses:
5806 - Never withdrew (siphoned through trades)
5810 - 17tvqFtxmqEk1dHkp1SPZ1xhqVJytgqfQf
5184 - 12JuxerBKaZqj1Byyxfi1a5uSPiT3Ueso3
6038 - 1Ez9Ey6D2ubgroSirbMHx8gGhqeZdjqg31
Here are the withdrawing addresses:
5806 - Never withdrew (siphoned through trades)
5810 - 17tvqFtxmqEk1dHkp1SPZ1xhqVJytgqfQf
5184 - 12JuxerBKaZqj1Byyxfi1a5uSPiT3Ueso3
6038 - 1Ez9Ey6D2ubgroSirbMHx8gGhqeZdjqg31
.....
Paypal does play its part...My account has been permanently limited..
Paypal does play its part...My account has been permanently limited..
Ok, I'll give you that but had the buyer been on the up and up. PP probably would not have been an issue.
I hope this was not a business PP account.
PP just needs to figure out that BitCoin is coming and either they are going to play or they are going to have to get out of the way.
Not business account...
I did not have any dispute/chargeback.. still my account has been limited permanently!
.....
Paypal does play its part...My account has been permanently limited..
Paypal does play its part...My account has been permanently limited..
Ok, I'll give you that but had the buyer been on the up and up. PP probably would not have been an issue.
I hope this was not a business PP account.
PP just needs to figure out that BitCoin is coming and either they are going to play or they are going to have to get out of the way.
Bind you are a negative, suspicious git. The owner of bitcoinmarket never once tried to convince anyone to use paypal or break their terms of service, he put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us. You have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that it was conniving on the part of bitcoinmarket. Of course bcm made money from the transactions, thats how society operates, you provide a service and you get paid for it. You obviously dont run a business like a lot of us here on this forum do.
+1
It's not Dustin
It's a few bad actors.
What it comes down to is that there were scammers using paypal and their TOS to their advantage by stating that they never authorized the transaction or some other claim and PP sides with the buyer.
I used PP on BCM, I bought some coins from numerous sellers.
The only nefarious stuff going on is with the PP buyers and/or their accounts.
Paypal does play its part...My account has been permanently limited..
Bind you are a negative, suspicious git. The owner of bitcoinmarket never once tried to convince anyone to use paypal or break their terms of service, he put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us. You have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that it was conniving on the part of bitcoinmarket. Of course bcm made money from the transactions, thats how society operates, you provide a service and you get paid for it. You obviously dont run a business like a lot of us here on this forum do.
+1
It's not Dustin
it's not even paypal.
It's a few bad actors.
What it comes down to is that there were scammers using paypal and their TOS to their advantage by stating that they never authorized the transaction or some other claim and PP sides with the buyer.
I used PP on BCM, I bought some coins from numerous sellers.
The only nefarious stuff going on is with the PP buyers and/or their accounts.
Yup, got scammed by b4rrydoyle (5184) too. It's just 20 BTC but still... Hopefully dwdollar can publish the payout address for those scammers so we can start collecting all addresses they're using and start to track them.
Bind you are a negative, suspicious git. The owner of bitcoinmarket never once tried to convince anyone to use paypal or break their terms of service, he put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us. You have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that it was conniving on the part of bitcoinmarket. Of course bcm made money from the transactions, thats how society operates, you provide a service and you get paid for it. You obviously dont run a business like a lot of us here on this forum do.
+1 from me. I have nothing but praise for all Dustin has done and what I've experienced with all my various dealings with him.
Take this offline if you must, let's get back to the issues at hand: can this be made to work, and officially, what is Paypal's issue with it? I presently have some open cases with Paypal's large business engagement ghosts trying to find answers to these very things. So far they have been useless, but I'm persisting.
Bind you are a negative, suspicious git. The owner of bitcoinmarket never once tried to convince anyone to use paypal or break their terms of service, he put paypal up as an option and it was a very valuable option for many of us. You have no evidence whatsoever to support your claim that it was conniving on the part of bitcoinmarket. Of course bcm made money from the transactions, thats how society operates, you provide a service and you get paid for it. You obviously dont run a business like a lot of us here on this forum do.
I would love a reply from Dustin Dollar on the above!
There is only one person to blame for anyone getting ripped off via paypal transactions at bitcoinmarket.
That is the person who owns bitcoinmarket for convincing you to break paypals terms of service agreement.
I think any first year law student could convince a judge and jury of the same.
The person who runs bitcoinmarket allowed it for one reason. To make money off you then close the accounts and take the bitcoins left in those account of anyone paypal reversed charges on, then of course state that all he could reimburse back were transaction fees.
Then he says the users are fraudulent and blames paypal for following their own terms of service.
Please people, try and use your brains.
He took a chance, convinced you to take a chance, blames everyone else, then cashes in on you.
That is the person who owns bitcoinmarket for convincing you to break paypals terms of service agreement.
I think any first year law student could convince a judge and jury of the same.
The person who runs bitcoinmarket allowed it for one reason. To make money off you then close the accounts and take the bitcoins left in those account of anyone paypal reversed charges on, then of course state that all he could reimburse back were transaction fees.
Then he says the users are fraudulent and blames paypal for following their own terms of service.
Please people, try and use your brains.
He took a chance, convinced you to take a chance, blames everyone else, then cashes in on you.
Interesting. I bought a few btc off 6038 for LR. It went fine. He even cut me a deal on one because my account was a bit short.
How about MBEUR?
Actually MoneyBookers is already there and can be a good replacement. For those having problems uploading funds, don't forget to check for the "Gaming selector" and set it to "Non-Gaming". MB have that issue of default to "Gaming enabled" which on many cases makes VISA to refuse the payment.
Too bad seemly it is not available on my country at all, so, or I use PayPal, or... I use PayPal
Actually MoneyBookers is already there and can be a good replacement. For those having problems uploading funds, don't forget to check for the "Gaming selector" and set it to "Non-Gaming". MB have that issue of default to "Gaming enabled" which on many cases makes VISA to refuse the payment.
An idea to make paypal safer.
1. clear all paypal email addresses in the database on BCM.
2. To add a paypal address an email confirmation with a generated code is sent to your paypal email address. This includes terms stating that you agree sales are final once coins are released from escrow.
3. The user must enter the code in BCM to activate the paypal email address as well as again agree to the terms of no charge backs and that sales are final once coins released from escrow.
4. To buy coins via paypal any offer you make will result in an email been sent to your paypal email address with a generated code. Again T&C's are stated and until you enter the code in on BCM the offer is no entered into the system.
5. In the transaction history all the information aabove and the time and date the seller agreed and what they agreed to is shown so that the seller can use it to argue with paypal.
It may not win the case with paypal but if the other person has control of the paypal email and the paypal account and agreed to the terms the chances are they are that person and they have agreed that the escrow history does show the real delivery of the item. IF you have the other person agreements it should be a reasonable case with paypal.
What do you think guys?
1. clear all paypal email addresses in the database on BCM.
2. To add a paypal address an email confirmation with a generated code is sent to your paypal email address. This includes terms stating that you agree sales are final once coins are released from escrow.
3. The user must enter the code in BCM to activate the paypal email address as well as again agree to the terms of no charge backs and that sales are final once coins released from escrow.
4. To buy coins via paypal any offer you make will result in an email been sent to your paypal email address with a generated code. Again T&C's are stated and until you enter the code in on BCM the offer is no entered into the system.
5. In the transaction history all the information aabove and the time and date the seller agreed and what they agreed to is shown so that the seller can use it to argue with paypal.
It may not win the case with paypal but if the other person has control of the paypal email and the paypal account and agreed to the terms the chances are they are that person and they have agreed that the escrow history does show the real delivery of the item. IF you have the other person agreements it should be a reasonable case with paypal.
What do you think guys?
Seen on BCM homepage:
Quote from: bitcoinmarket.com
2011-6-7 BMBTC/PPUSD Update
We were able to seize about 5 BTC from the fraudulent accounts. This is roughly equivalent to the sum of the transaction fees charged on these trades. Therefore, we've decided to issue transaction fee refunds on all fraudulent transactions. We realize this is a small compensation, but it is the fairest form of distribution that we can imagine. Members should see the deposit in their account in the next couple of days.
Thought you would like to know. We were able to seize about 5 BTC from the fraudulent accounts. This is roughly equivalent to the sum of the transaction fees charged on these trades. Therefore, we've decided to issue transaction fee refunds on all fraudulent transactions. We realize this is a small compensation, but it is the fairest form of distribution that we can imagine. Members should see the deposit in their account in the next couple of days.
"get money into mtgox"?! Why MtGox?!
Can wire to Btcex, btcmarket eu among others... but the issue isn't "me", but the newcomers. «Hey! Want some BTC? Great! Do a «fricking complicated or ultra-fee-expensive thing unless you live in the US» to get it.»
Can wire to Btcex, btcmarket eu among others... but the issue isn't "me", but the newcomers. «Hey! Want some BTC? Great! Do a «fricking complicated or ultra-fee-expensive thing unless you live in the US» to get it.»
That pretty much sums it up.
"get money into mtgox"?! Why MtGox?!
Can wire to Btcex, btcmarket eu among others... but the issue isn't "me", but the newcomers. «Hey! Want some BTC? Great! Do a «fricking complicated or ultra-fee-expensive thing unless you live in the US» to get it.»
Can wire to Btcex, btcmarket eu among others... but the issue isn't "me", but the newcomers. «Hey! Want some BTC? Great! Do a «fricking complicated or ultra-fee-expensive thing unless you live in the US» to get it.»
Incorrect! Paypal can chargeback up to 180 days later.
Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned
Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned
OK... just checked item dispute, where it states 45 days, so I guess after your input the "holy shit" turned into a big F... 180 days is about "report fraudulent use", right?
OTH Garrett, PP is still one of the best links between "Bitcoin and reality", as LR is a phony "bank" to where you can't either deposit or withdraw directly. Complicated!
Paypal sucks.
Mail a check, send a bank wire, etc. Tons of better ways to get money into mtgox.
Or just do some work for bitcoins! It's not hard
-Garrett
I'm very lucky
all my transactions have been relatively small...but however
since I live overseas away from the states.....paypal is really the only viable payment option for me
on bitmarket.eu which will be my alternative for awhile till bitcoin market can come back up
they require you to post heatware, ebay feedback or anything that is related to online transaction feedback to verify
your account personally after you register before you can start any transactions on their market.
Why don't we do that? the invitations/close market sounds good as well
I also like the ideas of immediate bans....
and how about adding in a prompt after each transaction to leave feedback?
I've done only 2 small transactions in my account since last week or so~ but nobody's left feedback for each of my transactions
I've left feedback for them...but they didn't....we need a large button or prompt for them to leave feedback
all my transactions have been relatively small...but however
since I live overseas away from the states.....paypal is really the only viable payment option for me
on bitmarket.eu which will be my alternative for awhile till bitcoin market can come back up
they require you to post heatware, ebay feedback or anything that is related to online transaction feedback to verify
your account personally after you register before you can start any transactions on their market.
Why don't we do that? the invitations/close market sounds good as well
I also like the ideas of immediate bans....
and how about adding in a prompt after each transaction to leave feedback?
I've done only 2 small transactions in my account since last week or so~ but nobody's left feedback for each of my transactions
I've left feedback for them...but they didn't....we need a large button or prompt for them to leave feedback
Incorrect! Paypal can chargeback up to 180 days later.
Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned
Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned
OK... just checked item dispute, where it states 45 days, so I guess after your input the "holy shit" turned into a big F... 180 days is about "report fraudulent use", right?
OTH Garrett, PP is still one of the best links between "Bitcoin and reality", as LR is a phony "bank" to where you can't either deposit or withdraw directly. Complicated!
45 days
Did I heard a holy shit! from that side?
Did I heard a holy shit! from that side?
Incorrect! Paypal can chargeback up to 180 days later.
Have fun paypal traders, don't say you weren't warned
45 days
Did I heard a holy shit! from that side?
Did I heard a holy shit! from that side?
Reading this thread made me nervous. 
I have a question.
What is the maximum time/days a person can chargeback on paypal?
I have a question.
What is the maximum time/days a person can chargeback on paypal?
Same question here.
Reading this thread made me nervous.
I have a question.
What is the maximum time/days a person can chargeback on paypal?
I have a question.
What is the maximum time/days a person can chargeback on paypal?
A couple thing I noticed:
First, user #5184... He was the first encounter I had with someone doing the "dispute after confirmation" scam. I had messaged him many times as well as the email of the PP user that had disputed the purchase. I was persistent and eventually got #5184 to give me back the BTC that I sold. After my negative rating of #5184, I got a lot of messages from other users who also got scammed asking me how i reacted (check out his ratings now).
A little while ago when the PPUSD price on BCM was going crazy ($40) I checked out the "recent trades" multiple times to see who was obviously intentionally overcharging for trades to push the price up. I saw a lot of high price activity from both user #6038 and #5810, especially between themselves.
I have to say, I am glad that I was lucky to get in during the open invitation window because despite the scammers, I really like BCM.
First, user #5184... He was the first encounter I had with someone doing the "dispute after confirmation" scam. I had messaged him many times as well as the email of the PP user that had disputed the purchase. I was persistent and eventually got #5184 to give me back the BTC that I sold. After my negative rating of #5184, I got a lot of messages from other users who also got scammed asking me how i reacted (check out his ratings now).
A little while ago when the PPUSD price on BCM was going crazy ($40) I checked out the "recent trades" multiple times to see who was obviously intentionally overcharging for trades to push the price up. I saw a lot of high price activity from both user #6038 and #5810, especially between themselves.
I have to say, I am glad that I was lucky to get in during the open invitation window because despite the scammers, I really like BCM.
This is a new clue, may be they are the same person or a team.
Followed the link to this thread from the BCM website. I just wanted to say that I for one, really appreciate that BCM allowed the use of PayPal. After reading all of these horror stories in this thread I feel very lucky. I'm one of the people who got in during the open registration, and I have sold several BitCoins, through BCM and PayPal, over the last couple weeks and have had no problems at all. So far anyways. I do however feel that PayPal is not the way to continue with BCM. Although it has been working fine for me with BTC thus far, I have had issues with it in the past while selling 'non-tangible' items. However, I understand that for many people it is very convenient, and even in some cases, the only means of doing BTC transactions. Many of the suggestions posted in this thread will help solving the issue with PayPal, but I think that the right answer is to simply stop using them at BCM. I'm in the same boat with everyone that is wanting to use Dwolla. It looks like an excellent alternative to PayPal, and I would like to see it used at BCM as well.
The issue here is that Dwolla is limited to the US if im correct.
But is it cheap to do that?
And if I have to go to the postal office every time that I do a transaction would be very annoying.
I prefer to focus on bitcoinmarket security measures.
Thats nice. But first How do you buy the bitcoins ?. And, where is the benefit there?. If I want to sell all my bitcoins and my only method is PAYPAL I can't... because I must always have some bitcoins in the account. Trading will be more difficult, although I think is not a bad idea to be considered.
I think is easier to hold the buyers BTC until is not possible to open a dispute in paypal for that transaction. But it would be annoying to for new buyers. And I think that punishing all the users for just a certain % of scammers is not the way.
Another Idea: We can use the same confirmation method as bitmarket plus a real ID confirmation, like a document, a credit card bill and so on.
Therefor it would be a lot more difficult for scammers to operate.
Obviously, people who uses PAYPAL takes the risk, but for many of them is the ONLY WAY (as me) to cash out the money, or to deposit for buying BTC.
And if I have to go to the postal office every time that I do a transaction would be very annoying.
I prefer to focus on bitcoinmarket security measures.
Quote
You can only use PayPal, if you have some bitcoins in your account, the more bitcoins you have, the more you can buy using PayPal, thus if you do funny stuff with PayPal, you risk losing all your BTC.
Thats nice. But first How do you buy the bitcoins ?. And, where is the benefit there?. If I want to sell all my bitcoins and my only method is PAYPAL I can't... because I must always have some bitcoins in the account. Trading will be more difficult, although I think is not a bad idea to be considered.
I think is easier to hold the buyers BTC until is not possible to open a dispute in paypal for that transaction. But it would be annoying to for new buyers. And I think that punishing all the users for just a certain % of scammers is not the way.
Another Idea: We can use the same confirmation method as bitmarket plus a real ID confirmation, like a document, a credit card bill and so on.
Therefor it would be a lot more difficult for scammers to operate.
Obviously, people who uses PAYPAL takes the risk, but for many of them is the ONLY WAY (as me) to cash out the money, or to deposit for buying BTC.
It states you can't trade 'securities', and a security wikipedia says is a 'negotiable financial instrument representing financial value'. The act of selling it for fiat currency instantly makes it a security I guess.
IANAL but will ask a lawyer to review the clause in the TOS:
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account."
As I read this, the prohibition is on selling securities with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, not a prohibition on securities in general.
I can fund an E*Trade account with PayPal
I can buy gold and silver on ebay all day long with PayPal
A suggestion for those using paypal. After payment get the buyer to open a dispute and then immediately close it, a dispute can only be opened once, so it's no longer possible to claim a refund.
Would that be suspicious to paypal
Alternatively once the buyer has paid, send out a blank envelop using recorded delivery to their paypal address. 99% of the time paypal will side with the seller if you have a tracking number (and they only cost a few pence). But as rhino says that won't help you if paypal locks your funds or reverses the transaction themselves.
Followed the link to this thread from the BCM website. I just wanted to say that I for one, really appreciate that BCM allowed the use of PayPal. After reading all of these horror stories in this thread I feel very lucky. I'm one of the people who got in during the open registration, and I have sold several BitCoins, through BCM and PayPal, over the last couple weeks and have had no problems at all. So far anyways. I do however feel that PayPal is not the way to continue with BCM. Although it has been working fine for me with BTC thus far, I have had issues with it in the past while selling 'non-tangible' items. However, I understand that for many people it is very convenient, and even in some cases, the only means of doing BTC transactions. Many of the suggestions posted in this thread will help solving the issue with PayPal, but I think that the right answer is to simply stop using them at BCM. I'm in the same boat with everyone that is wanting to use Dwolla. It looks like an excellent alternative to PayPal, and I would like to see it used at BCM as well.
I guess the biggest problem is simply that there are many people spread throughout many parts of the world, not everyone has a credit/debit card, not everyone's bank supports direct wiring or payments from/to other countries. I for one live in Europe, my bank supports transactions from/to other countries, but usually there are some fees that are pretty pesky, so PayPal is usually (my personal) first choice for things like that. But yeah, with PayPal being such a pain in the butt with their TOS andwhatnot, I guess there are not many options.
(I hope any of that made some sense, I'm a little sleep deprived and English is not my first language.)
(I hope any of that made some sense, I'm a little sleep deprived and English is not my first language.)
dwdollar, any plans to implement a Dwolla funding option?
I may. I'm getting a lot of requests for it.
Yeah hopefully, since that's the only other way I can fund my account besides the mail. I'm lucky I got in during open registration. I've had nothing but good luck on your site. Although PP was being slow and dumb. Maybe you can implement some kind of direct funding like through credit card or debit card. All this funding through a third party like PP or Dwolla is pretty annoying and delays deposits.
Guys,
All the above suggested method may be able to lessen the risk of chargeback, but cant prevent what happened to my account.
In my case, there was no chargeback, but paypal itself decided to review certain transactions (may be because I did lot of trades, involving $$).
So really, there is no way to mitigate your paypal risk I guess....
All the above suggested method may be able to lessen the risk of chargeback, but cant prevent what happened to my account.
In my case, there was no chargeback, but paypal itself decided to review certain transactions (may be because I did lot of trades, involving $$).
So really, there is no way to mitigate your paypal risk I guess....
Agreed, we can solve the Paypal transaction failings with some more hoops, but I'm still plagued by the feasibility of it based on the Paypal terms of service.
It states you can't trade 'securities', and a security wikipedia says is a 'negotiable financial instrument representing financial value'. The act of selling it for fiat currency instantly makes it a security I guess.
Evidently, it would be mandatory that no transaction mentions bitcoins in the description - and that unfortunately can only be by user discretion. I'm sure some nefarious sad case number cruncher in the Paypal offices is proudly presenting their boss with their latest creation, the "all transactions mentioning bit* or BTC in the description" report.
Besides that, it seems that chargeback claims draw attention and perhaps multiple small transactions over short time periods? Two more things I can't see a way around.
As difficult as it will make my bitcoin life, I'm convinced enough from what I've read in this thread to dump Paypal forever. I consider it too high a risk for me as a seller, regardless of any external safety mechanisms - Paypal hold all the cards, so I'm moving to a different table. I suspect I'll have to change tables a few more times in the future too!
speeder I like your idea!!
Guys,
All the above suggested method may be able to lessen the risk of chargeback, but cant prevent what happened to my account.
In my case, there was no chargeback, but paypal itself decided to review certain transactions (may be because I did lot of trades, involving $$).
So really, there is no way to mitigate your paypal risk I guess....
All the above suggested method may be able to lessen the risk of chargeback, but cant prevent what happened to my account.
In my case, there was no chargeback, but paypal itself decided to review certain transactions (may be because I did lot of trades, involving $$).
So really, there is no way to mitigate your paypal risk I guess....
A suggestion for those using paypal. After payment get the buyer to open a dispute and then immediately close it, a dispute can only be opened once, so it's no longer possible to claim a refund.
Would that be suspicious to paypal
I know what can be done!
Imitate Steam.
On Steam, if you do a paypal chargeback, they ban your account.
But why is this effective?
It is because you lose the stuff in your account.
So, we must do the same on BCM:
You can only use PayPal, if you have some bitcoins in your account, the more bitcoins you have, the more you can buy using PayPal, thus if you do funny stuff with PayPal, you risk losing all your BTC.
Imitate Steam.
On Steam, if you do a paypal chargeback, they ban your account.
But why is this effective?
It is because you lose the stuff in your account.
So, we must do the same on BCM:
You can only use PayPal, if you have some bitcoins in your account, the more bitcoins you have, the more you can buy using PayPal, thus if you do funny stuff with PayPal, you risk losing all your BTC.
A suggestion for those using paypal. After payment get the buyer to open a dispute and then immediately close it, a dispute can only be opened once, so it's no longer possible to claim a refund.
wow guys, all these stories of scammers and Paypal "siding" with them are really unnerving
I'm thinking that one way to potentially avoid Paypal reversals is to require the party sending the Paypal money to make a "Mass Payment" from their current balance
it would be great if someone could confirm but I've heard that Mass Payments are not reversible (and they only cost 1$ independently of amount)
anyone?
I'm thinking that one way to potentially avoid Paypal reversals is to require the party sending the Paypal money to make a "Mass Payment" from their current balance
it would be great if someone could confirm but I've heard that Mass Payments are not reversible (and they only cost 1$ independently of amount)
anyone?
Update: My account has been permanently limited for currency exchange. This is probably less because of b4rrydoyle and his scamming, and more because of the f@$king idiots who sent me payments with memos explicitly saying they were buying bitcoins.
My aaccount has been limited as well.
They asked clarification for some bitcoin transactions which I did.
I told them its for software consulting, then they asked why did you take those payments as personal
Then they told there will be review from accounts team and will reply in 24 hours.
Yesterday, on OTC, there was a suspicious buyer (scammer?) , with whom I did transaction for 345$.
I think he used stolen accounts for payment.
May be because of that my account is being reviewed?
Still awaiting reply..
Dont know what should be my next course of action
Could we get the email-addresses of the scammers? The ones they logged in with, not their paypal adresses. I just thought that if they are actually using stolen paypal accounts, it wouldn't seem likely to get any contact through that address. If the addresses connected to BCM are the real ones, they will be quite nice to have. Also, any chance that BCM has an unsafe password system 
. It would be incredibly cool if it was possible to get the passwords of the scammers and they used the same passwords for email or other stuff!
. It would be incredibly cool if it was possible to get the passwords of the scammers and they used the same passwords for email or other stuff!
What were the scammers doing exactly? I had quite a few buyers cancel trades and not pay but that was all. Im in Australia so really hope you do re-implement Paypal as its by far and away the easiest method of buying and selling bitcoins from here.
I am into sharetrading aswell and the broking firms here would only let you place a buy order for shares if you had at least an equivalent value of shares or cash in your account as collateral, which I think should be the case for bitcoin market too. If someone places a buy order and doesnt pay within 48 hours then Dustin can sell btc from the buyers account at the prevailing market rate in order to pay the seller.
I am into sharetrading aswell and the broking firms here would only let you place a buy order for shares if you had at least an equivalent value of shares or cash in your account as collateral, which I think should be the case for bitcoin market too. If someone places a buy order and doesnt pay within 48 hours then Dustin can sell btc from the buyers account at the prevailing market rate in order to pay the seller.
Well it was bound to happen. With the combination of people recently finding out about bitcoin and BCM having open registration it really attracted a whole slew of scamers. I've made a good amount of trades on BCM with paypal and have never had a problem but the weekend just didn't feel right. The price was to high and there were to many active trades going on for the typical day on BCM. Though I did sell 15 BTC on the weekend and took a chance, I was lucky and was not scammed. I found it odd that the people I sold to were German and their paypal accounts were non U.S. accounts but they bought with USD. Also I was receiving emails in German from paypal. So this kinda sealed the deal for me to not sell any more seeing that BCM is mainly a U.S. site and having multiple sales that were not U.S. based one after another was odd.
It will be hard to fix the problem with paypal since it's to easy to commit fraud and charge back someone as well as a limited control over the transactions. It's to bad some people have to wreck it for everyone else. In a perfect world with out ass holes and idiots paypal would be a breeze but as we all know that's not the case and never will be. The only reason I used BCM with paypal is because I'm from Canada and it made it easy, but I think for now I'll stick with interac transfers.
It will be hard to fix the problem with paypal since it's to easy to commit fraud and charge back someone as well as a limited control over the transactions. It's to bad some people have to wreck it for everyone else. In a perfect world with out ass holes and idiots paypal would be a breeze but as we all know that's not the case and never will be. The only reason I used BCM with paypal is because I'm from Canada and it made it easy, but I think for now I'll stick with interac transfers.
Dwdollar do you have an ETA at all?
Lucky I have only purchased bitcoins so far!
BCM with paypal is the only place I can sell bitcoins without getting charged $50 to withdraw! (I'm in Australia)
Im lucky I can pay with AUD through Mtgox with local bank account...plus AUD is killing USD, I just hope USD comes back when I withdraw
All the best
Michael
Lucky I have only purchased bitcoins so far!
BCM with paypal is the only place I can sell bitcoins without getting charged $50 to withdraw! (I'm in Australia)
Im lucky I can pay with AUD through Mtgox with local bank account...plus AUD is killing USD, I just hope USD comes back when I withdraw
All the best
Michael
5810 attempted to scam me, but I reported the incident as soon as it was evident that I was dealing with a scammer versus a newbie trader. To dwdollar's credit, I felt it was handled well.
I am new to Bitcoin Market, but have made quite a few trades already. I have run into one person who sent me PayPal eCheck. eCheck can take a week or more to clear. I requested the buyer to send me instant payment instead or otherwise I will cancel the transaction. I gave him two reasons for this:
1. Buyer could buy bitcoins with an eCheck and watch for the value of bitcoins to rise. If the bitcoins fall in price, the buyer would cancel the transaction. If the bitcoins rise in price, buyer would continue with transaction. So the seller is taking buyer's risk for a period of a week or more.
2. Funds are not available right away to the seller of bitcoins, so the seller cannot trade on the market for a week. In this case, if the seller would like to reinvest the money back into bitcoins, it is not possible to do. In a week, the price of bitcoins could rise dramatically and the seller would be at a big disadvantage.
Dustin Dollar has not replied to my email to cancel the trade yet. I can understand that he might have a huge volume of emails to deal with right now.
The trade id in question is 1606 (https://bitcoinmarket.com/member/trades/view/?tradeID=1606). The trade occurred on 2011-06-01 20:41:38, but at this time I still have not received confirmation of the funds, it is still pending.
I would like to get some opinions if I am being unreasonable or unfair here for requesting to cancel this transaction. Member edmehlschau (4190) is a new member and does not have any ratings, so he could potentially take the PayPal money back and run if Dustin decides to rule in his favor for some reason.
Thanks,
dabest1
Update: To clarify, the transaction is still unconfirmed by me and bitcoins are sitting in the escrow on Bitcoin Market.
1. Buyer could buy bitcoins with an eCheck and watch for the value of bitcoins to rise. If the bitcoins fall in price, the buyer would cancel the transaction. If the bitcoins rise in price, buyer would continue with transaction. So the seller is taking buyer's risk for a period of a week or more.
2. Funds are not available right away to the seller of bitcoins, so the seller cannot trade on the market for a week. In this case, if the seller would like to reinvest the money back into bitcoins, it is not possible to do. In a week, the price of bitcoins could rise dramatically and the seller would be at a big disadvantage.
Dustin Dollar has not replied to my email to cancel the trade yet. I can understand that he might have a huge volume of emails to deal with right now.
The trade id in question is 1606 (https://bitcoinmarket.com/member/trades/view/?tradeID=1606). The trade occurred on 2011-06-01 20:41:38, but at this time I still have not received confirmation of the funds, it is still pending.
I would like to get some opinions if I am being unreasonable or unfair here for requesting to cancel this transaction. Member edmehlschau (4190) is a new member and does not have any ratings, so he could potentially take the PayPal money back and run if Dustin decides to rule in his favor for some reason.
Thanks,
dabest1
Update: To clarify, the transaction is still unconfirmed by me and bitcoins are sitting in the escrow on Bitcoin Market.
The reversals aren't happening by accident. They occur when someone says their account was stolen (perhaps even rightly so). Paypal then sides with the buyer and returns their funds because on paypal the buyer always wins.
Well, I won't be requesting mine to be reversed!!
I guess there are crooks everywhere.
I feel sorry for those that got burned. And those that can't get in due to a few bad players.
you mean i have 60 days to reverse my PP purchases? Freaking sweet! I'm just kidding.
I'm glad i was a purchaser and not a seller. If PP did wind up reversing my transactions, I'd find a way to pay the seller but i guess that's just me newbie 5233 at BitcoinMarket.
I'd love to be able to use PayPal and have my ebay and paypal id available for potential sellers to review prior to accepting my offer to buy. As I've been on ebay since 2001.
I'm just glad i got in before just before the paypal issues and prior to going back to invite only, otherwise I'd be on the outside looking in.
PayPal was a good option especially considering the velocity that it was driving the market, it did have a lot of new people looking at picking up some bitcoins. Alas, it also attracted some less than desirable characters too.
I'm glad i was a purchaser and not a seller. If PP did wind up reversing my transactions, I'd find a way to pay the seller but i guess that's just me newbie 5233 at BitcoinMarket.
I'd love to be able to use PayPal and have my ebay and paypal id available for potential sellers to review prior to accepting my offer to buy. As I've been on ebay since 2001.
I'm just glad i got in before just before the paypal issues and prior to going back to invite only, otherwise I'd be on the outside looking in.
PayPal was a good option especially considering the velocity that it was driving the market, it did have a lot of new people looking at picking up some bitcoins. Alas, it also attracted some less than desirable characters too.
The reversals aren't happening by accident. They occur when someone says their account was stolen (perhaps even rightly so). Paypal then sides with the buyer and returns their funds because on paypal the buyer always wins.
you mean i have 60 days to reverse my PP purchases? Freaking sweet! I'm just kidding.
I'm glad i was a purchaser and not a seller. If PP did wind up reversing my transactions, I'd find a way to pay the seller but i guess that's just me newbie 5233 at BitcoinMarket.
I'd love to be able to use PayPal and have my ebay and paypal id available for potential sellers to review prior to accepting my offer to buy. As I've been on ebay since 2001.
I'm just glad i got in before just before the paypal issues and prior to going back to invite only, otherwise I'd be on the outside looking in.
PayPal was a good option especially considering the velocity that it was driving the market, it did have a lot of new people looking at picking up some bitcoins. Alas, it also attracted some less than desirable characters too.
I'm glad i was a purchaser and not a seller. If PP did wind up reversing my transactions, I'd find a way to pay the seller but i guess that's just me newbie 5233 at BitcoinMarket.
I'd love to be able to use PayPal and have my ebay and paypal id available for potential sellers to review prior to accepting my offer to buy. As I've been on ebay since 2001.
I'm just glad i got in before just before the paypal issues and prior to going back to invite only, otherwise I'd be on the outside looking in.
PayPal was a good option especially considering the velocity that it was driving the market, it did have a lot of new people looking at picking up some bitcoins. Alas, it also attracted some less than desirable characters too.
...
The only reason that I use PAYPAL is because theres no other way in my country. In most South America countries PAYPAL is used for Ebay buying, and credit cards are not very abundant. People sometime have fear to link their CC to PAYPAL, so they buy credit to a trader. Thats how I get the money in my local currency. I can make that trade because PAYPAL is POPULAR, Ebay is POPULAR, and the demand of PAYPAL credit is hight.
I'm sure that we can think a way to make scamming harder to be accomplish.
The only reason that I use PAYPAL is because theres no other way in my country. In most South America countries PAYPAL is used for Ebay buying, and credit cards are not very abundant. People sometime have fear to link their CC to PAYPAL, so they buy credit to a trader. Thats how I get the money in my local currency. I can make that trade because PAYPAL is POPULAR, Ebay is POPULAR, and the demand of PAYPAL credit is hight.
I'm sure that we can think a way to make scamming harder to be accomplish.
I'm in a similar situation where my entire 'banking' profile is online and Paypal represents about the only way I can 'cash out' to live in the real world given my location. I'm by no means a fan of Paypal, I have nothing but contempt for them and their support structures and fees, but it serves a convenient purpose in my case.
I was lucky to not be defrauded (yet - PP has 60 days to get nasty), and kept most trades small as a safeguard. Paypal commenced somewhat clandestine investigations on several of my transactions and cancelled them very quickly to 'protect me' before I released the coins, the rest where legitimate. I was actually quite stunned at how much money people are willing to hand over with absolutely no safeguards, and just an anonymous me and a Confirm button standing between them. The suggestions here can hopefully make the process safer for both parties with a clean recovery strategy in the case of either side failing.
Regardless, I greatly appreciate the efforts thus far and agree Paypal is most definitely not on the critical path for bitcoin success - Paypal just helps take it to a wider audience off the beaten track of the major established finance sectors, and helps me liberate my bitcoins too
We all know, PAYPAL is NOT the best choice.
But, think about this. The liberties that PAYPAL gives to scammers are the same liberties that we use. I have NO WAY to receive local currency from bitcoins, and Im wondering what would happen if I use a bank account on my country (hypothetically) to make bitcoin trades?. Probably the state will say "Hey, why are you moving that amounts of money without declaring them?. Soon or later I'll loose those liberties that PAYPAL gives me.
So let me help with some Ideas> We have two sides here>
Trading net> Variable
PAYPAL>NOT variable
So how we can make a risk free trading network?. Obviously we can't modify PAYPAL policies but we can modify ours.
More validation and rating systems must be implemented.
If you are not a "Great user" you cannot make trades for more than U$D100 in 24hs. Your bitcoins will be confirmed after x days, so you can't claim a refund.
What about unconfirmed transactions?. The user who already made the transaction simply can send a pic to the admin with the transaction ID and data. If the data is veracious then the trade will be auto-confirmed.
And, a trust network must be developed, awarding correct users by lowering the fees rates will be a nice idea to, more trustable users, less problems, less work. >)
Update for Ian> Happened to me once, I just sent an email to the user saying that he must not include anything about currency trading in the description. He apologized.
I think is more about informing the people. Even dwdollar was not aware of this. After the event that I've described, I sent an email to him with a recommendation to add an advice in the webpage so people will not commit the same mistake. He answered "I don't know of PayPal hassling end users? Usually they just lock business accounts that have central accounts.".
We are in BETA stage, this mistakes are acceptable, we're all taking the risk in this new flourishing system.
I know that there are a lot of users that are in the same situation that me on this PAYPAL matter.
To dwdollar> Don't think that PAYPAL will do anything for us. We are violating their TOS. They will do all on their power to clean their hands. We have the hands tied...
But, think about this. The liberties that PAYPAL gives to scammers are the same liberties that we use. I have NO WAY to receive local currency from bitcoins, and Im wondering what would happen if I use a bank account on my country (hypothetically) to make bitcoin trades?. Probably the state will say "Hey, why are you moving that amounts of money without declaring them?. Soon or later I'll loose those liberties that PAYPAL gives me.
So let me help with some Ideas> We have two sides here>
Trading net> Variable
PAYPAL>NOT variable
So how we can make a risk free trading network?. Obviously we can't modify PAYPAL policies but we can modify ours.
More validation and rating systems must be implemented.
If you are not a "Great user" you cannot make trades for more than U$D100 in 24hs. Your bitcoins will be confirmed after x days, so you can't claim a refund.
What about unconfirmed transactions?. The user who already made the transaction simply can send a pic to the admin with the transaction ID and data. If the data is veracious then the trade will be auto-confirmed.
And, a trust network must be developed, awarding correct users by lowering the fees rates will be a nice idea to, more trustable users, less problems, less work. >)
Update for Ian> Happened to me once, I just sent an email to the user saying that he must not include anything about currency trading in the description. He apologized.
I think is more about informing the people. Even dwdollar was not aware of this. After the event that I've described, I sent an email to him with a recommendation to add an advice in the webpage so people will not commit the same mistake. He answered "I don't know of PayPal hassling end users? Usually they just lock business accounts that have central accounts.".
We are in BETA stage, this mistakes are acceptable, we're all taking the risk in this new flourishing system.
I know that there are a lot of users that are in the same situation that me on this PAYPAL matter.
To dwdollar> Don't think that PAYPAL will do anything for us. We are violating their TOS. They will do all on their power to clean their hands. We have the hands tied...
Update: My account has been permanently limited for currency exchange. This is probably less because of b4rrydoyle and his scamming, and more because of the f@$king idiots who sent me payments with memos explicitly saying they were buying bitcoins.
I'll chime in here and add that I was burnt by user 5810 to the tune of ~$550 USD. Two separate transactions and paypal closed one case almost immediately despite the initial notification stating that I had 7 days to respond. There was no explanation or note of any kind in the case.
I'm a long time member of paypal in good standing, not that I *really* expected them to take that into account.
The second case is still open and I posted any/all supporting evidence, such that I had. If I do get any serious response I'll update here.
I'm a long time member of paypal in good standing, not that I *really* expected them to take that into account.
The second case is still open and I posted any/all supporting evidence, such that I had. If I do get any serious response I'll update here.
About the same story for me too, #5810 took me for $541 across 2 transactions. The first dispute looks like it was actually generated by the "buyer" and the second seems to be automatically generated. The user-generated one looks to be closed (after I uploaded screenshots it was closed after about 2 minutes). The second is *still* open.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but people were talking about opening and resolving a dispute so that it couldn't be disputed again? I don't know if that works for PayPal, but otherwise intermediate escrow assuming the liability is the only "best for the seller" option that I can see.
My .02btc
Basically I sold a small amount of BTC for PPUSD on BM. I got the payment in my PP account and confirmed the trade on BM. About 8 hours later Paypal removed the funds and marked them as "held" because the sender filed a "regarding unauthorized access to his PayPal account" claim. The next day PP resolved the issue without my input on the matter. I feel this was the result of 1) A hacked PP account was used to send the funds 2) PP basically told me to go to hell because it was a BTC transaction.
Throughout all of this dwdollar was very reachable and replied to all my queries. I do not hold him or his service responsible for my loss of BTC. My loss is easily made up in a few days of mining.
I have sent email to the two addresses involved with this trade but have not gotten a response and probably will never get one.
It really is ashame when good people try to build a reputation by providing a very usable service and some greedy bastards have to come along and shit all over it.
Well life goes on. Small lesson learned.
Cheers.
Basically I sold a small amount of BTC for PPUSD on BM. I got the payment in my PP account and confirmed the trade on BM. About 8 hours later Paypal removed the funds and marked them as "held" because the sender filed a "regarding unauthorized access to his PayPal account" claim. The next day PP resolved the issue without my input on the matter. I feel this was the result of 1) A hacked PP account was used to send the funds 2) PP basically told me to go to hell because it was a BTC transaction.
Throughout all of this dwdollar was very reachable and replied to all my queries. I do not hold him or his service responsible for my loss of BTC. My loss is easily made up in a few days of mining.
I have sent email to the two addresses involved with this trade but have not gotten a response and probably will never get one.
It really is ashame when good people try to build a reputation by providing a very usable service and some greedy bastards have to come along and shit all over it.
Well life goes on. Small lesson learned.
Cheers.
I dug through the paypal tos and other documentation when I started trading at bitcoinmarket.com wanting to know just what my liability would be for funds i received via paypal. Closest thing I found is that neither the buyer protection or seller protection apply to non-tangible goods. I confirmed this an hour ago with a lengthy conversation with a paypal 'dispute specialist' on the phone. He confirmed that unless there is a physical item actually shipped to an address, there is no protection for either party.
*Furthermore* he confirmed that if the sending party claims that the transaction was not authorized (as opposed to goods not received, etc), that is an immediate trigger to close the case and resolve automatically in favor of the sender, reversing the transaction. I specifically asked if there was any avenue for appeal, arbitration, or anything else after that happened and the answer was "no, once a case is decided that is completely final".
I asked him what I as a seller could do to protect myself from liability from actual unauthorized transactions or dishonest buyers and the only suggestion he had was to deal only with verified paypal members.
Paypal is so "easy" that I really wish it was a viable option. No matter which party they choose to protect by default there will always be people who abuse it.
My personal suggestion for how to proceed, if at all, with paypal in bitcoin trading circles is some combination of:
-feedback on traders, to establish reliability (and make it obvious, not something you have to dig to see)
-new members start with a low limit on trade size
-some currency balance be held as 'collateral' for trades of considerable value to discourage theft.
-some way for both parties to the transaction to decline to proceed if the other has questionable reputation
I like the ease of use of PayPal as well, and I was lucky not to be scammed during this past weekend's run up since I was doing a large number of considerably sized transactions (30+ BTC).
You have some good suggestions and these may help somewhat mitigate the PP dilemma as well:
- Holding the BTC in escrow for a fixed period of time for new users
- An overhaul to the rating system to take into consideration successful large exchanges
If not, I'll be looking forward to the Dwolla support.
Hi.
I've been scammed to by a French guy, lucky me that I had withdraw all my money before the scammer claim it, so I'm in red now haha.
+1
The only reason that I use PAYPAL is because theres no other way in my country. In most South America countries PAYPAL is used for Ebay buying, and credit cards are not very abundant. People sometime have fear to link their CC to PAYPAL, so they buy credit to a trader. Thats how I get the money in my local currency. I can make that trade because PAYPAL is POPULAR, Ebay is POPULAR, and the demand of PAYPAL credit is hight.
I'm sure that we can think a way to make scamming harder to be accomplish.
I've been scammed to by a French guy, lucky me that I had withdraw all my money before the scammer claim it, so I'm in red now haha.
Quote
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
I use PayPal and got really unhappy with how BCM went (and I expected it, when BCM stopped being invite only... In fact, I invited ever only one person, and I encouraged others to check #otc web of trust to see if a person was to be invited...)
The reason is simply: It is the ONLY option available on my country.
Here there are no dwolla, no LR, no Pecunix, no Webmoney... It is ONLY paypal. (well, we have Western Union too, but they charge 25% O.o)
I use PayPal and got really unhappy with how BCM went (and I expected it, when BCM stopped being invite only... In fact, I invited ever only one person, and I encouraged others to check #otc web of trust to see if a person was to be invited...)
The reason is simply: It is the ONLY option available on my country.
Here there are no dwolla, no LR, no Pecunix, no Webmoney... It is ONLY paypal. (well, we have Western Union too, but they charge 25% O.o)
+1
The only reason that I use PAYPAL is because theres no other way in my country. In most South America countries PAYPAL is used for Ebay buying, and credit cards are not very abundant. People sometime have fear to link their CC to PAYPAL, so they buy credit to a trader. Thats how I get the money in my local currency. I can make that trade because PAYPAL is POPULAR, Ebay is POPULAR, and the demand of PAYPAL credit is hight.
I'm sure that we can think a way to make scamming harder to be accomplish.
FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds
Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
Where is that in their TOS? It may exist, but I've never seen it. Have a link handy?
A closed network is much easier to manage. I can eventually root out the scammers or whoever is inviting them. Otherwise they just keep making new accounts.
When it's all said and done I may re-list it, but I will rewrite the email contracts and make it VERY clear about the risk involved AND that BCM can not be liable for any loss.
I dug through the paypal tos and other documentation when I started trading at bitcoinmarket.com wanting to know just what my liability would be for funds i received via paypal. Closest thing I found is that neither the buyer protection or seller protection apply to non-tangible goods. I confirmed this an hour ago with a lengthy conversation with a paypal 'dispute specialist' on the phone. He confirmed that unless there is a physical item actually shipped to an address, there is no protection for either party.
*Furthermore* he confirmed that if the sending party claims that the transaction was not authorized (as opposed to goods not received, etc), that is an immediate trigger to close the case and resolve automatically in favor of the sender, reversing the transaction. I specifically asked if there was any avenue for appeal, arbitration, or anything else after that happened and the answer was "no, once a case is decided that is completely final".
I asked him what I as a seller could do to protect myself from liability from actual unauthorized transactions or dishonest buyers and the only suggestion he had was to deal only with verified paypal members.
Paypal is so "easy" that I really wish it was a viable option. No matter which party they choose to protect by default there will always be people who abuse it.
My personal suggestion for how to proceed, if at all, with paypal in bitcoin trading circles is some combination of:
-feedback on traders, to establish reliability (and make it obvious, not something you have to dig to see)
-new members start with a low limit on trade size
-some currency balance be held as 'collateral' for trades of considerable value to discourage theft.
-some way for both parties to the transaction to decline to proceed if the other has questionable reputation
I'd like to apologize to anyone who was 'burnt' by the recent events. Especially to older members who may have struggled to get an invitation. Open registration was a bad mistake.
I've told some inquiries BMBTC/PPUSD will be re-listed once all trades are confirmed and scammers are purged. This may be true. If PayPal does not take the proper side on many of these cases I am officially done with them.
Bitcoin will flourish with or without PayPal.
I've told some inquiries BMBTC/PPUSD will be re-listed once all trades are confirmed and scammers are purged. This may be true. If PayPal does not take the proper side on many of these cases I am officially done with them.
Bitcoin will flourish with or without PayPal.
too bad u invited b4rrydoyle..that piece of crap scammed me
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
I use PayPal and got really unhappy with how BCM went (and I expected it, when BCM stopped being invite only... In fact, I invited ever only one person, and I encouraged others to check #otc web of trust to see if a person was to be invited...)
The reason is simply: It is the ONLY option available on my country.
Here there are no dwolla, no LR, no Pecunix, no Webmoney... It is ONLY paypal. (well, we have Western Union too, but they charge 25% O.o)
Closest thing in the PayPal TOS would be:
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account."
But only if you construed it as:
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell securities."
I'm sure that in some strained legal definition, someone could plausibly call BTC a security of sorts.
However, with that said, there is no explicit prohibition on buying electronic currencies so long as they are not illegal (as anything illegal is outlawed elsewhere in the TOS).
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account."
But only if you construed it as:
"You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell securities."
I'm sure that in some strained legal definition, someone could plausibly call BTC a security of sorts.
However, with that said, there is no explicit prohibition on buying electronic currencies so long as they are not illegal (as anything illegal is outlawed elsewhere in the TOS).
dwdollar, any plans to implement a Dwolla funding option?
I may. I'm getting a lot of requests for it.
FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds
Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
Where is that in their TOS? It may exist, but I've never seen it. Have a link handy?
A closed network is much easier to manage. I can eventually root out the scammers or whoever is inviting them. Otherwise they just keep making new accounts.
When it's all said and done I may re-list it, but I will rewrite the email contracts and make it VERY clear about the risk involved AND that BCM can not be liable for any loss.
I'll chime in here and add that I was burnt by user 5810 to the tune of ~$550 USD. Two separate transactions and paypal closed one case almost immediately despite the initial notification stating that I had 7 days to respond. There was no explanation or note of any kind in the case.
I'm a long time member of paypal in good standing, not that I *really* expected them to take that into account.
The second case is still open and I posted any/all supporting evidence, such that I had. If I do get any serious response I'll update here.
I'm a long time member of paypal in good standing, not that I *really* expected them to take that into account.
The second case is still open and I posted any/all supporting evidence, such that I had. If I do get any serious response I'll update here.
What is the most viable option going forward?
I'll just echo digdugg67 and say that BMBTC/PPUSD helped to acquire a good starting position in BTC faster than any other possible method. I would love to see it reinstated but understand the issue. I'm now getting accounts online with LR, MB, DW, etc. but PP was very easy, fluid and successful.
A tip I'll share regarding PayPal payments - if you have a Discover card, your account may have been activated for Discover Money Messenger. Essentially Discover is using PayPal as a backend for cardholders to send personal payments from the Discover Card. There are two benefits (and perhaps a third):
1) There are no fees charged to either the sender or receiver of the money. The receiver just gets it in their PayPal account like any other payment with a note about it being from Discover.
2) You get cashback on the money you send at up to 1% depending on your cashback level.
possibly
3) I don't know if this would work but you may have another layer of chargeback capability at the credit card level in the event you pay but are never confirmed. I think PayPal has no love for either buyers or sellers of an alternative electronic currency that really threatens their business model. Discover, on the other hand, probably cares a little less so long as you make your payments and interest on the cash transaction you buy BTC with.
One drawback I should note is daily/monthly limits on the service. I've heard of limits of $200/$200 up to $400/$5000. If you buy a lot of BTC you could reach your limit quickly.
As always, YMMV.
A tip I'll share regarding PayPal payments - if you have a Discover card, your account may have been activated for Discover Money Messenger. Essentially Discover is using PayPal as a backend for cardholders to send personal payments from the Discover Card. There are two benefits (and perhaps a third):
1) There are no fees charged to either the sender or receiver of the money. The receiver just gets it in their PayPal account like any other payment with a note about it being from Discover.
2) You get cashback on the money you send at up to 1% depending on your cashback level.
possibly
3) I don't know if this would work but you may have another layer of chargeback capability at the credit card level in the event you pay but are never confirmed. I think PayPal has no love for either buyers or sellers of an alternative electronic currency that really threatens their business model. Discover, on the other hand, probably cares a little less so long as you make your payments and interest on the cash transaction you buy BTC with.
One drawback I should note is daily/monthly limits on the service. I've heard of limits of $200/$200 up to $400/$5000. If you buy a lot of BTC you could reach your limit quickly.
As always, YMMV.
FailPal has never worked with digital currencies which is why nobody in their right mind accepts it for webmoney/liberty reserve even in closed trading networks. As soon as you mention you are currency trading with paypal you violate TOS and they can seize all funds
Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
Your account will eventually be limited, or a nigerian will phish an account from a senior but clueless trader and scam you all while logged into their account like they do to countless powersellers on ebay every day. You can reverse transactions up to 180days later i wouldn't trust paypal if i was selling $5 CDs.
Never understood why bitcoin users use paypal when the entire e-currency world of Pecunix/LR/Webmoney/HDmoney/GDP/Cgold/EGold hasn't touched Paypal for trading since the 1990s heyday of scamming.
Can anybody here speak french? I'm trying to track down a scammer, so I figured out contacting the ISP of the IPs he logged in with would be a good idea. But they're french and my french isn't very good; I'm having trouble just navigating around the ISPs' homepages. So if anybody would be kind to help my writing a message to the french ISP, I'd be very thankful. And if i get my money back, you might even get a bitcoin or two as reward
Edit: I know he might be using proxies or just using unprotected wifi of other people, but who know? Maybe he isn't...
Edit: I know he might be using proxies or just using unprotected wifi of other people, but who know? Maybe he isn't...
dwdollar, any plans to implement a Dwolla funding option?
For reference, PayPal closed my cases in the buyer's favor before enough time had passed for anyone to even look at the evidence I provided. I will be surprised if even one of the people scammed recovers his money through the PayPal dispute process.
I'm getting the impression that PayPal is intentionally trying to shake any connection between itself and Bitcoin. That is, they WANT to burn people and discredit Bitcoin to new eyeballs.
This makes the most sense as Paypal has had nothing but stories of frozen and locked accounts with anything Bitcoin related. They're as much of a competitor to Bitcoin as Blockbuster was when Netflix came out...out with the dinosaurs, in with the new.
For reference, PayPal closed my cases in the buyer's favor before enough time had passed for anyone to even look at the evidence I provided. I will be surprised if even one of the people scammed recovers his money through the PayPal dispute process.
I'm getting the impression that PayPal is intentionally trying to shake any connection between itself and Bitcoin. That is, they WANT to burn people and discredit Bitcoin to new eyeballs.
I for one was glad that you had paypal as an option. It made it very convenient to purchase my first bit coins. I hope that it does indeed come back or that we can find an alternative to paypal if need be.
Thanks!
Thanks!
For reference, PayPal closed my cases in the buyer's favor before enough time had passed for anyone to even look at the evidence I provided. I will be surprised if even one of the people scammed recovers his money through the PayPal dispute process.
I'd like to apologize to anyone who was 'burnt' by the recent events. Especially to older members who may have struggled to get an invitation. Open registration was a bad mistake.
I've told some inquiries BMBTC/PPUSD will be re-listed once all trades are confirmed and scammers are purged. This may be true. If PayPal does not take the proper side on many of these cases I am officially done with them.
Bitcoin will flourish with or without PayPal.
I've told some inquiries BMBTC/PPUSD will be re-listed once all trades are confirmed and scammers are purged. This may be true. If PayPal does not take the proper side on many of these cases I am officially done with them.
Bitcoin will flourish with or without PayPal.
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