Removal of BestChange ANN from local sections

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Quote from: Pmalek on December 20, 2024, 03:28:10 AM

Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

Maybe it's because the deleted ones (see the Croatia translation thread) had no active discussion/updates on them like the others I saw ( still not a good reason to delete an ANN)

No, that can't be it. If we were to use that as a factor, admins and mods would have to delete many more threads all over the place. As theymos said, our local isn't booming with activity, but that's no reason to delete something you don't even understand due to a language barrier.

I'm not going to say that the mod who took care of it had an internal motive but something went down..

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 20, 2024, 02:25:10 PM

We are not inactive at all, but we are not going to post spam and worthless posts just to have better activity.
If that would start to happen I would personally always report posts like that regardless who wrote them.

I've noticed that political-inclined local boards have more activities than others. For the Nigeria local board, for example, our leaders are constantly in the news for terrible reasons, whether it's bitcoin or the economy, so there's always something to speak about.

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Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

but honestly there's no use in spending money on translation on those inactive local boards. IMO

We are not inactive at all, but we are not going to post spam and worthless posts just to have better activity.
If that would start to happen I would personally always report posts like that regardless who wrote them.

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Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

Maybe it's because the deleted ones (see the Croatia translation thread) had no active discussion/updates on them like the others I saw ( still not a good reason to delete an ANN)

No, that can't be it. If we were to use that as a factor, admins and mods would have to delete many more threads all over the place. As theymos said, our local isn't booming with activity, but that's no reason to delete something you don't even understand due to a language barrier.

Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

...but honestly there's no use in spending money on translation on those inactive local boards.

That's a decision BestChange should make, and obviously they thought it was worth it creating a translated thread in the Croatian local.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 19, 2024, 12:09:32 PM

Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

but honestly there's no use in spending money on translation on those inactive local boards. IMO

Croatian local is far from inactive, with mainly high ranking accounts many of which are reputable members of this forum. True, our numbers are far from where they used to be, but same can be said about the forum in general as well.

Maybe its just me, but it kinda sucks that mods can delete posts that were made by a member who has some reputation around here) without report on the boards of the language they don't speak.

Funny thing is, the mod who took care of it has seen this thread and has decided not to take responsibility for their actions in explaining why those threads were deleted because, from everything we've read, there seems to be no good reason, and even theymos responses were mere speculations. No one seems to know why and how to avoid it moving forward.

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Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

Maybe it's because the deleted ones (see the Croatia translation thread) had no active discussion/updates on them like the others I saw

There are others that were not deleted while having only posts from OP, so that can't be a reason for deletion in some boards.

Quote from: Josefjix on December 19, 2024, 10:30:23 AM

but honestly there's no use in spending money on translation on those inactive local boards. IMO

Croatian local is far from inactive, with mainly high ranking accounts many of which are reputable members of this forum. True, our numbers are far from where they used to be, but same can be said about the forum in general as well.

Maybe its just me, but it kinda sucks that mods can delete posts that were made by a member who has some reputation around here) without report on the boards of the language they don't speak.

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Quote from: Pmalek on December 19, 2024, 05:05:21 AM

When you said that the topic could be "non-additive", can you tell us what makes it such and why the deleted Croatian thread is "non-additive" compared to one of the other threads in local boards that wasn't deleted?

Maybe it's because the deleted ones (see the Croatia translation thread) had no active discussion/updates on them like the others I saw ( still not a good reason to delete an ANN) but honestly there's no use in spending money on translation on those inactive local boards. IMO

Bestchange is big and with or without BTT forum they will still get customers.

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Quote from: Pmalek on December 19, 2024, 05:05:21 AM

When you said that the topic could be "non-additive", can you tell us what makes it such and why the deleted Croatian thread is "non-additive" compared to one of the other threads in local boards that wasn't deleted?

I would speculate that that is an after-the-fact justification.

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Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

The 4 topics deleted in this case were in low-volume language sections that don't have their own moderators, so Global Moderators who can't actually speak the language have jurisdiction. Given that, it's reasonable to assume that they're poor translations and/or non-additive. I'm not inclined to restore them.

No offense, but how can you, an American, or your fellow staff members who could be Japanese, Spanish, insert any country you like, determine that a translation is of poor quality with no knowledge and understanding of the target language? Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care less if BestChange has an ANN in our Croatian local. I didn't even see when it was posted (perhaps it appeared in the "Trgovina" child board), but after seeing the achieve, the translation is ok.

When you said that the topic could be "non-additive", can you tell us what makes it such and why the deleted Croatian thread is "non-additive" compared to one of the other threads in local boards that wasn't deleted?

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Quote from: examplens on December 17, 2024, 09:42:35 AM

I believe that this is the reason why a moderator is not assigned to the Croatian board, because the largest number of users from there know well the basics of behaviour on the forum and spammers appear very rarely.

Yep, having board basically clear from spam and shitposts even when we had x10 more activity than we have now actually worked against us when it comes to getting a new moderator.

Quote from: JollyGood on December 16, 2024, 01:38:28 PM

Whether we agree or disagree with the comment, this is the most important post in the thread as it clarifies the threads will not be restored.

"Not inclined to" (as theymos put it) doesn't necessarily mean that he won't do it, but since Best_Change won't push it further, I guess matter is closed.

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 16, 2024, 10:48:57 PM

To all those who suggested we re-translate our topics and try again, we're not going to do it as of now. The fact that the threads were deleted without any feedback is very demotivating, while suggestions about poor translation are merely speculation.

This is completely understandable. I'd be very demotivated too.
I personally attested that the Greek translation wasn't bad. But honestly I don't think you're missing out in much because many local subforums here never get catered to and as a result get very little visibility. If there's little to nothing to attract eyes on local boards they fall in a vicious cycle of disrepair.
It's no fault of your own, but rather the forum can't really sustain these boards when there's no staff speaking these languages.

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 16, 2024, 10:48:57 PM

To all those who suggested we re-translate our topics and try again, we're not going to do it as of now. The fact that the threads were deleted without any feedback is very demotivating, while suggestions about poor translation are merely speculation.

That's also a good decision and I truly respect that. I suggest you to not be demotivated as sometimes such things happen on forums and you should not be demotivated in such a way. I hope Best Change will continue to be part of this forum in its original thread and also in local boards where its threads are present.

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Quote from: examplens on December 17, 2024, 09:42:35 AM

Quote from: Best_Change on December 16, 2024, 10:48:57 PM

To all those who suggested we re-translate our topics and try again, we're not going to do it as of now. The fact that the threads were deleted without any feedback is very demotivating, while suggestions about poor translation are merely speculation.

You don't need to be demotivated by that, it's simply a way of organizing the forum that in 90% of cases serves its purpose.

I have to say that I admire Best_Change's very cordial reaction to theymos' message. I think I would have taken it worse if some threads were deleted and others not, because maybe they are badly translated but maybe they are not and maybe they do not contribute much to the local boards or maybe they do.

In the end the ultimate decision maker is theymos, but I think he is open to criticism, even of his decisions, as he is a great advocate of free speech.

I remember that in the case of Best_Change when there were complaints about his service and even accusations of scam, he knew how to respond in a very calm and very detailed way. For me an example of how a business has to deal with complaints.

Anyway, I wouldn't try to repost threads in the deleted sections with a new translation, just to keep wondering if they'll be deleted because the moderator thinks it's badly translated or not, or contributes a lot or little to the local board.

So congratulations Best_Change for the way you react in this forum. I think many of us, including myself, have a lot to learn from you.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on December 16, 2024, 04:32:29 PM

Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

What we're talking about here is taking the same announcement and translating it into 16 different languages/topics. Local moderators need to decide on a case-by-case basis whether this kind of pure translation is actually worthwhile in their own local sections. It'd be totally reasonable for a local moderator to delete any of these topics due to being a poor translation, or even just because this sort of translation activity is simply more noise than signal in that local section.

The 4 topics deleted in this case were in low-volume language sections that don't have their own moderators, so Global Moderators who can't actually speak the language have jurisdiction. Given that, it's reasonable to assume that they're poor translations and/or non-additive. I'm not inclined to restore them.

It's not like we didn't ask you for assigning new local moderator for Croatian local board several times Wink

Activity can always be better and we lost some og members, but there are local boards with less activity and they have local mod.
I don't think this issue with bestchange would happen in our board, but I invite them to post it again.
We already confirmed it was not a poor translation in our board.

This is additionally unusual because, in the Croatian local board, 80% of active members are highly ranked and proven forum users. If the moderator had asked anyone to check the post, he would have received a precise answer.
I believe that this is the reason why a moderator is not assigned to the Croatian board, because the largest number of users from there know well the basics of behaviour on the forum and spammers appear very rarely.

Quote from: Best_Change on December 16, 2024, 10:48:57 PM

To all those who suggested we re-translate our topics and try again, we're not going to do it as of now. The fact that the threads were deleted without any feedback is very demotivating, while suggestions about poor translation are merely speculation.

You don't need to be demotivated by that, it's simply a way of organizing the forum that in 90% of cases serves its purpose.

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Quote from: Plaguedeath on December 16, 2024, 03:59:56 AM

Quote from: Best_Change on December 15, 2024, 10:42:38 PM

Can anyone suggest forums in the languages that were deleted? Perhaps we can go there. Specifically, local forums on crypto, business, finance, and earning online. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

altcoinstalks.com, cryptotalk.org

Thank you very much. We are already active on this forums and will definitely explore the local boards.

To all those who suggested we re-translate our topics and try again, we're not going to do it as of now. The fact that the threads were deleted without any feedback is very demotivating, while suggestions about poor translation are merely speculation.

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Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

What we're talking about here is taking the same announcement and translating it into 16 different languages/topics. Local moderators need to decide on a case-by-case basis whether this kind of pure translation is actually worthwhile in their own local sections. It'd be totally reasonable for a local moderator to delete any of these topics due to being a poor translation, or even just because this sort of translation activity is simply more noise than signal in that local section.

The 4 topics deleted in this case were in low-volume language sections that don't have their own moderators, so Global Moderators who can't actually speak the language have jurisdiction. Given that, it's reasonable to assume that they're poor translations and/or non-additive. I'm not inclined to restore them.

It's not like we didn't ask you for assigning new local moderator for Croatian local board several times Wink

Activity can always be better and we lost some og members, but there are local boards with less activity and they have local mod.
I don't think this issue with bestchange would happen in our board, but I invite them to post it again.
We already confirmed it was not a poor translation in our board.

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Quote from: JollyGood on December 16, 2024, 01:38:28 PM

I suppose the OP can decide if they want to create new threads with better translations and try again.

Yes, I believe that's going to be the best step by the OP, and I would like to add that instead of hiring translators from outside of the forum, OP might consider hiring reputed members of the particular local boards and pay them to write the announcement threads.

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Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

What we're talking about here is taking the same announcement and translating it into 16 different languages/topics. Local moderators need to decide on a case-by-case basis whether this kind of pure translation is actually worthwhile in their own local sections. It'd be totally reasonable for a local moderator to delete any of these topics due to being a poor translation, or even just because this sort of translation activity is simply more noise than signal in that local section.

The 4 topics deleted in this case were in low-volume language sections that don't have their own moderators, so Global Moderators who can't actually speak the language have jurisdiction. Given that, it's reasonable to assume that they're poor translations and/or non-additive.

I missed this post and no matter how informative it is there is room for improvement. Others can express their own opinion but rather than assuming matters were one way or another, would it not be far more conducive if a moderator had to complete a note for the OP of any thread that was being removed? Had that happened this thread might not have been created as the matter would have been clarified.

Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

I'm not inclined to restore them.

Whether we agree or disagree with the comment, this is the most important post in the thread as it clarifies the threads will not be restored. I suppose the OP can decide if they want to create new threads with better translations and try again.

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Quote from: Plaguedeath on December 16, 2024, 03:59:56 AM

Quote from: Best_Change on December 15, 2024, 10:42:38 PM

Can anyone suggest forums in the languages that were deleted? Perhaps we can go there. Specifically, local forums on crypto, business, finance, and earning online. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

altcoinstalks.com, cryptotalk.org

I think bestchange already active on the Altcointalk.com forum. you can track them over there.
Sorry here is the link

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 15, 2024, 10:42:38 PM

Can anyone suggest forums in the languages that were deleted? Perhaps we can go there. Specifically, local forums on crypto, business, finance, and earning online. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

altcoinstalks.com, cryptotalk.org

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Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

What we're talking about here is taking the same announcement and translating it into 16 different languages/topics. Local moderators need to decide on a case-by-case basis whether this kind of pure translation is actually worthwhile in their own local sections. It'd be totally reasonable for a local moderator to delete any of these topics due to being a poor translation, or even just because this sort of translation activity is simply more noise than signal in that local section.

The 4 topics deleted in this case were in low-volume language sections that don't have their own moderators, so Global Moderators who can't actually speak the language have jurisdiction. Given that, it's reasonable to assume that they're poor translations and/or non-additive. I'm not inclined to restore them.

Thank you for taking the time to comment on this, theymos. Things are clear now. We will continue posting in the threads that are still there as we humbly hope that they can help users learn about our service better and use it to the utmost benefit.

Can anyone suggest forums in the languages that were deleted? Perhaps we can go there. Specifically, local forums on crypto, business, finance, and earning online. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

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The OP has not posted since creating this thread, maybe they are working behind the scenes using PMs to get a better understanding of what happened in relation to the deleted threads. Even though reasons have been alluded to what happened, nothing was explained and maybe this is an opportunity to have a debate about whether a moderator should always advise a member why their threads were removed at the time they took action.

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 14, 2024, 01:27:23 PM

If the agency you hired used shitty machine translation on Dutch, chances are they did the same for other languages.

I said the same thing earlier, it was an obvious redflag from the Dutch assessment. Same agency can't produce different results. Little penalty they ( bestchange) has to pay for not trusting anyone from the forum to do the job.

Quote from: Josefjix on December 13, 2024, 02:20:44 PM

If the one in Dutch was translated by the same agency and reported as bad, there's a significant possibility that the others are also bad.

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 13, 2024, 03:10:20 AM

Can you give us an idea what the issue is with all the above-mentioned threads?

There are some line which your translated content might have gone against the rules or we say they are badly translated. But I believe only local mods can have such action to delete post as they are only person who can decide whether a post is bad or not when following the forum ethics.

Quote from: Mitchell on December 15, 2024, 04:08:07 PM

]Whoops, you are correct. I somehow missed up my quotes. Has been updated!

This has happened to me as well, but most times when with mobile and it's too tiny to quote the right person. So for that I reduced my interest of quoting while on mobile.

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Quote from: SamReomo on December 15, 2024, 03:11:37 PM

Quote from: Rikafip on December 15, 2024, 05:11:33 AM

If you bothered to read the whole thread instead just the last post that you replied to, you would see that on at least one local board thread was deleted even though translation was good (confirmed by 2 native speakers of that board), meaning there's more factors to it.

Well, only one translation was verified by 2 native speakers who confirmed that it was written in a well manner but still rest of the local boards translation might be deleted only because they were not written by native speakers or the agency who translated the announcement thread might have used machine translation. The exact reason behind deleting of those local board threads is still unknown.

I also agree here, this translation from the Croatian board seems satisfactory.
And when that thread appeared, I thought that it was better to be opened by BestChange than by some local user, due to possible later updates.

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Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 15, 2024, 04:06:36 PM

Hello sir Mitchell!
Please I can't remember saying the above statement you quoted me there. I wouldn't have responded to this but I know how strict is forum about whatever they do. Please I would like you to re-edit your post and quote the right person for future purposes.

Sorry to draw back your attention and I mean no insults. At least I am with my clear eyes 👀.

Whoops, you are correct. I somehow missed up my quotes. Has been updated!

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Quote from: Mitchell on December 15, 2024, 06:01:45 AM

Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:42:40 AM

Snip

Correct, as a patroller I can only deal with newbies.

Hello sir Mitchell!
Please I can't remember saying the above statement you quoted me there. I wouldn't have responded to this but I know how strict is forum about whatever they do. Please I would like you to re-edit your post and quote the right person for future purposes.

Sorry to draw back your attention and I mean no insults. At least I am with my clear eyes 👀.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 15, 2024, 05:11:33 AM

If you bothered to read the whole thread instead just the last post that you replied to, you would see that on at least one local board thread was deleted even though translation was good (confirmed by 2 native speakers of that board), meaning there's more factors to it.

Well, only one translation was verified by 2 native speakers who confirmed that it was written in a well manner but still rest of the local boards translation might be deleted only because they were not written by native speakers or the agency who translated the announcement thread might have used machine translation. The exact reason behind deleting of those local board threads is still unknown.

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Ideally, these boards should have a moderator speaking the local language.
I've offered to volunteer since the Greek board is ultra low traffic.

But it seems there's not much interest. Which I kind of understand also. If s board is low traffic having its own moderator becomes an administrative burden. On the other hand the Bitcoin community should do its best to remain open to all kinds of people.

I don't know in the end. It lies with Theymos' decisions. But if a community can't have traffic and had lost its moderator bringing another one won't necessarily bring traffic also. So it's understandable.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 14, 2024, 10:49:04 AM

As far as I know, patrollers can only act on posts written by Newbies, so we can discard that theory.

Correct, as a patroller I can only deal with newbies.

Quote from: NotATether on December 15, 2024, 01:07:37 AM

What do you mean by patrollers? Are these human positions, or are they bots which have an API to read and report newbie posts (like Mitchell's spambot)? And when did they start getting used?

This has been a position for as long as I've been on the forum. Think I got it somewhere in 2015 (whilst being a Moderator for the Dutch section) and kept it when I stopped being its moderator. I would look it up, but don't feel like going through that many DM pages.

Patrollers deal with newbies, my bot used to run on my own account, but that isn't very secure, so I made a new one and it got the same patroller rights I have.

Quote from: Xal0lex on December 15, 2024, 05:46:14 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on December 15, 2024, 01:35:27 AM

But as far as I know, every Mod is also patroller.

You are wrong, simple moderators do not have patrol powers. Patrol powers are given by theymos at his discretion, but initially simple moderators do not have such powers.

Correct. I had to ask for it.

Quote from: LoyceV on December 15, 2024, 01:35:27 AM

I don't think there is an API, just patrol.

Correct. All my bot does is scrape, parse, act.

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 15, 2024, 01:35:27 AM

But as far as I know, every Mod is also patroller.

You are wrong, simple moderators do not have patrol powers. Patrol powers are given by theymos at his discretion, but initially simple moderators do not have such powers.

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Quote from: SamReomo on December 14, 2024, 03:12:17 PM

I also think that the local board threads were removed only due to poor translation and nothing else. I also suggest Best Change to hire someone reputable who could rewrite those threads once again but in human tone not by using any AI or machine translation tools.

If you bothered to read the whole thread instead just the last post that you replied to, you would see that on at least one local board thread was deleted even though translation was good (confirmed by 2 native speakers of that board), meaning there's more factors to it.

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 15, 2024, 05:04:59 AM

So the deletion depends on a subjective criterion more like a lottery

Afaik, that's how post deletion always worked around here. Tongue

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Quote from: Wiwo on December 15, 2024, 04:43:29 AM

When your thread was removed for poor quality translation, you went back to the same agency that make the translation for you and they did fucking analysis

The bold part point us to where the problem is, agency did an analysis, did they tell you they changed anything or work on the translation to make it meet the standard acceptable here in the forum?

No right! So now you want to force your way through?

Have you read what the thread is about? I'll answer you: no. We are talking about the fact that Best Change has 16 translations of its service thread made and just 5 of them were deleted. Moreover, they can be deleted not just because they were supposedly translated by an automatic translator but:

Quote from: theymos on December 14, 2024, 04:48:38 PM

... because this sort of translation activity is simply more noise than signal in that local section.

Otherwise it would not be understandable that the Croatian translation, which is well done, has been deleted.

In short, such translations can be deleted if they are done by an seemingly by an automatic translator or if they are ‘noise’, or not, because for example the one in the Spanish section was not deleted and I would bet that it was not the only one that was reported and not deleted.

So the deletion depends on a subjective criterion more like a lottery whereby 5 translations have been deleted and 11 remain. The company's poor translation in some cases is not crucial here.

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When your thread was removed for poor quality translation, you went back to the same agency that make the translation for you and they did fucking analysis

The bold part point us to where the problem is, agency did an analysis, did they tell you they changed anything or work on the translation to make it meet the standard acceptable here in the forum?

No right! So now you want to force your way through?

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Quote from: NotATether on December 15, 2024, 01:07:37 AM

What do you mean by patrollers? Are these human positions, or are they bots which have an API to read and report newbie posts (like Mitchell's spambot)? And when did they start getting used?

Mods are attached to a certain board, patrollers aren't. But as far as I know, every Mod is also patroller. So a Mod can moderate anyone on "their own" board, but only Newbies anywhere else. And there are a few patrollers who aren't Mods. I don't think there is an API, just patrol.

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Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:42:40 AM

Talking about Theymos, that dude is fucking busy out there man! I don't think he would have that time responding to them knowing too well that he has people under him who can fixed up this minor issues. As I believe any deleted post can be restored by mod/admin without mentioning theymos himself. I will go with your suggestions at least to contact those local moderators, it's a nice idea.

Less I forget.. refer that I meant is to post on those locals through someone over there, but your suggestion counters all as it's the best.

Posts are usually deleted by moderators and not by admins. In the case of the local boards it is usually by the local board moderator if any, or a global mod.

Quote from: Rikafip on December 14, 2024, 10:49:04 AM

Quote from: Josefjix on December 14, 2024, 08:38:08 AM

it was simply an action taken by one of those global mods or patrollers without anyone's assistance.

As far as I know, patrollers can only act on posts written by Newbies, so we can discard that theory.

What do you mean by patrollers? Are these human positions, or are they bots which have an API to read and report newbie posts (like Mitchell's spambot)? And when did they start getting used?

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What we're talking about here is taking the same announcement and translating it into 16 different languages/topics. Local moderators need to decide on a case-by-case basis whether this kind of pure translation is actually worthwhile in their own local sections. It'd be totally reasonable for a local moderator to delete any of these topics due to being a poor translation, or even just because this sort of translation activity is simply more noise than signal in that local section.

The 4 topics deleted in this case were in low-volume language sections that don't have their own moderators, so Global Moderators who can't actually speak the language have jurisdiction. Given that, it's reasonable to assume that they're poor translations and/or non-additive. I'm not inclined to restore them.

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 14, 2024, 01:27:23 PM

If the agency you hired used shitty machine translation on Dutch, chances are they did the same for other languages.

I fully agree with LoyceV, and I also think that the local board threads were removed only due to poor translation and nothing else. I also suggest Best Change to hire someone reputable who could rewrite those threads once again but in human tone not by using any AI or machine translation tools.

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Quote from: Cricktor on December 14, 2024, 05:48:51 AM

If the Dutch translation was really bad then I'd assume the deletion there could've been caused by obvious breaking of above rule #27.

It was really bad:

Quote from: Mitchell on October 29, 2024, 04:37:02 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on October 29, 2024, 02:56:41 AM

Quote from: Best_Change on October 29, 2024, 12:20:45 AM

it is not clear to us was the suspicious in using machine translation was the reason for our Dutch topic to be taken off. Could anyone please advise?

It's the reason I reported it. I assume the Mod agreed with me. If you paid for these translations, it doesn't sound like natural Dutch.

Quote

"Als u uw tijd belangrijk vindt, moet u weten hoelang het duurt om een geldwisselaar met acceptabele wisselkoersen te kiezen. Wij bieden u aan dat te vergeten en uw tijd aan iets leuks te besteden"

I would have removed it as well (not that I can, but just saying in general). Nobody would willingly write "geautomatiseerde verwerkingsprincipe is dat de geldwisselaar werkt volgens voorgedefinieerde sjablonen".

Quote from: Best_Change on December 13, 2024, 03:10:20 AM

Can you give some insight as to why our threads were removed from Japanese. Hebrew, Croatian, Greek and Swedish section?

If the agency you hired used shitty machine translation on Dutch, chances are they did the same for other languages.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 14, 2024, 10:49:04 AM

Quote from: Josefjix on December 14, 2024, 08:38:08 AM

it was simply an action taken by one of those global mods or patrollers without anyone's assistance.

As far as I know, patrollers can only act on posts written by Newbies, so we can discard that theory.

Fair. I had no idea they only acted on newbie posts; I always assumed they had the same power as the global mod except to ban and unban users.

Quote from: alani123 on December 14, 2024, 10:57:33 AM

The translation I saw on our local board wasn't bad. It wasn't perfect but the agency that took care of it obviously did more than just Google translate or DeepL.

Tells alot about the source of those translations, the mod who took care of it could be right after all.

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The translation I saw on our local board wasn't bad. It wasn't perfect but the agency that took care of it obviously did more than just Google translate or DeepL.

It was still deleted, even though I didn't report it. Someone else probably did. The Greek board is kinda dead. I follow it for every post and get a notification for everything, there aren't that many posts at all. So I'd say someone probably doing the same also reported it and because there's no local moderator they took the report too seriously and they didn't know Greek at all do they just followed it blindly.

A solution maybe could be to have a local reputable member make your posts so they don't get deleted.

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Quote from: lovesmayfamilis on December 14, 2024, 04:34:27 AM

For such topics to be removed for incorrect translation, the reports had to be submitted directly by the owners of the boards where these topics were. But we see two people from Croatia who agree with the translation, and it does not cause them any problems. The same can be learned from users of other local boards. If the reason is not in the translation, then maybe the person who sent such reports formulated the explanation incorrectly, and the moderator agreed with him.

hilariousandco said that he can't see any reports being made about this, which then leaves us to one of the mods who has the right to do it, doing it by himself. Some transparency about this would be nice.

Quote from: Josefjix on December 14, 2024, 08:38:08 AM

it was simply an action taken by one of those global mods or patrollers without anyone's assistance.

As far as I know, patrollers can only act on posts written by Newbies, so we can discard that theory.

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Quote from: lovesmayfamilis on December 14, 2024, 04:34:27 AM

For such topics to be removed for incorrect translation, the reports had to be submitted directly by the owners of the boards where these topics were. But we see two people from Croatia who agree with the translation, and it does not cause them any problems. The same can be learned from users of other local boards. If the reason is not in the translation, then maybe the person who sent such reports formulated the explanation incorrectly, and the moderator agreed with him. This is advertising, and the service that is advertised has earned trust with its many years of experience not only on this forum but also around the world.

The global mod has already stated that no reports were made; from what I understand, the global mod sees all reports on both the local and English boards (both handled and unhandled), so it simply means that no one reported those threads; it was simply an action taken by one of those global mods or patrollers without anyone's assistance.

If native speakers from other languages can come forward and confirm that the threads in their native language were organically translated, as members of the Croatia board have done, it will shed additional light on the matter.

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Quote from: Josefjix on December 13, 2024, 04:49:57 PM

The question is, how many global mods have publicly admitted to making certain decisions, aside from hilariousandco?

mprep has on a couple of occasions. They both are the most active global moderators I see around. I believe we have just 3 in total on the forum.

Quote from: Josefjix on December 13, 2024, 04:49:57 PM

There is a problem somewhere, and bestchange should take the lost and hire an active native speaker from those languages to avoid a similar occurrence in the future.

Reposting same ANN will result to another deletion.

I already gave my advice to Best_Change. Trying to know exactly what went wrong is the best approach as there is no confirmation that the translations were made by non natives, but they can have them reviewed just to be extra certain.

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This complicates things even more if some Croatian members have stated the translations are of a good standard. The whole matter would have been resolved if the OP was informed of the reason, that way they could have at least contested the claim/reason had they disagreed with the moderator that removed it (or at least had a chance to modify the words (if that was what would have sufficed).

Quote from: lovesmayfamilis on December 14, 2024, 04:34:27 AM

For such topics to be removed for incorrect translation, the reports had to be submitted directly by the owners of the boards where these topics were. But we see two people from Croatia who agree with the translation, and it does not cause them any problems. The same can be learned from users of other local boards. If the reason is not in the translation, then maybe the person who sent such reports formulated the explanation incorrectly, and the moderator agreed with him. This is advertising, and the service that is advertised has earned trust with its many years of experience not only on this forum but also around the world.

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There's rule #27 of Unofficial list of (official) Bitcointalk.org rules, guidelines, FAQ

Quote

27. Using automated translation tools to post translated content in Local boards is not allowed.

But as mentioned by two users, violating this rules didn't seem to apply for the Croation translation. If the Dutch translation was really bad then I'd assume the deletion there could've been caused by obvious breaking of above rule #27.

The more a reason to have AOBT do the translations for important stuff as they likely have native speakers to do it.

If moderators delete such threads I would expect from them to have the decency to explain the deletion reasons.

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Quote from: Upgrade00 on December 13, 2024, 11:06:08 AM

From the comment of a global mod above, it's possible there were no reports. Could have been a direct action by a mod based on their assessment of those posts.

That’s something to think about eventually, don’t know what’s like on the global mods dashboard but, from the comment, someone acted out of impulse and don’t know how this might be a coincidence as it happens across a few local boards, perhaps not all at the same time but enough to raise some concerns for a project that has sticked around for a long time to gain wide recognition and reputation.

With the former been as a result of bad translation, I think that was the whistle blower that called for attention on other local boards which indeed result on the actions on the threads.
I would agree with the notion that, local people or native speakers do translate them threads, just as it’s done for Fillippone.

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For such topics to be removed for incorrect translation, the reports had to be submitted directly by the owners of the boards where these topics were. But we see two people from Croatia who agree with the translation, and it does not cause them any problems. The same can be learned from users of other local boards. If the reason is not in the translation, then maybe the person who sent such reports formulated the explanation incorrectly, and the moderator agreed with him. This is advertising, and the service that is advertised has earned trust with its many years of experience not only on this forum but also around the world.

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Quote from: dkbit98 on December 13, 2024, 04:42:26 PM

I saw that topic also and it looked fine to me, I thought one of our local members probably translated it, but I was not sure.

My thought exactly.

Quote from: dkbit98 on December 13, 2024, 04:42:26 PM

For me there was no problem with that post, and everyone can check that in archive:
https://ninjastic.space/topic/5520790

Ah yes, I forgot to check the archive, thnx. Anyway, my initial assessment was correct, this looks fine to me and I see no reason for deletion.

Quote from: Josefjix on December 13, 2024, 04:49:57 PM

Reposting same ANN will result to another deletion.

Why? Mods are human and they make mistakes like everyone else. In at least one case (the Croatian local board), they obviously made one.

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I do find it strange that the OP is complaining of five threads being removed and asking for the reasons yet thus far there has been no concrete reason provided that can bring closure. If it was simply a matter of low quality translations then I guess the solution could be what you have suggested but the OP should have been told the reason when it happened.

Quote from: mindrust on December 13, 2024, 09:34:28 AM

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Quote from: Upgrade00 on December 13, 2024, 04:10:04 PM

Quote from: Josefjix on December 13, 2024, 02:20:44 PM

Maybe a global mod from one of those languages literally read and took care of all of them after discovering that the one in his language was not organically translated; it's a simple logic; if one of the translations was translated using an AI tool, one could easily assume that the others were also translated using AI.

Firstly, I don't think mods will act on conjecture, expecting that because one was not originally translated others weren't too.

Secondly, not all their translated posts were deleted, only the ones which was stated in the op, so that invalidates that logic. In the end all of these speculations don't matter without the actual mod that took the action chiming in.

The question is, how many global mods have publicly admitted to making certain decisions, aside from hilariousandco? There is a problem somewhere, and bestchange should take the lost and hire an active native speaker from those languages to avoid a similar occurrence in the future.

Reposting same ANN will result to another deletion.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 13, 2024, 10:06:41 AM

I only skimmed over their ANN when they published it in our local (Croatian) board so I can't be 100% sure, but from what I remember, it looked to me like it was translated by a native Croatian speaker.

Whoever reported it in our local board probably was too eager. Tongue

I saw that topic also and it looked fine to me, I thought one of our local members probably translated it, but I was not sure.
I didn't report it myself, but I don't know if anyone else did it, or it was just a moderator tooking the initiative and deleted topics from all local boards.
For me there was no problem with that post, and everyone can check that in archive:
https://ninjastic.space/topic/5520790

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Quote from: Josefjix on December 13, 2024, 02:20:44 PM

Maybe a global mod from one of those languages literally read and took care of all of them after discovering that the one in his language was not organically translated; it's a simple logic; if one of the translations was translated using an AI tool, one could easily assume that the others were also translated using AI.

Firstly, I don't think mods will act on conjecture, expecting that because one was not originally translated others weren't too.

Secondly, not all their translated posts were deleted, only the ones which was stated in the op, so that invalidates that logic. In the end all of these speculations don't matter without the actual mod that took the action chiming in.

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 13, 2024, 03:10:20 AM

Can you give us an idea what the issue is with all the above-mentioned threads?

Thank you.

I am glad to see Best_change write here again. I have developed this bond with the green colour as the memories are still fresh.

As others have advised, it could be as a result of poor translation just like the Dutch case. You can reach out to good translators to make a real translation for your big brand in the forum.

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Quote from: Upgrade00 on December 13, 2024, 11:27:13 AM

Quote from: Rikafip on December 13, 2024, 11:15:01 AM

Wouldn't all the others be removed as well in that case, rather than just a selected few?

My comment was merely a conjecture. Thinking about it, I don't think we have a mod who could assess the different threads in multiple languages and determine which was made using a tool and which wasn't. That will need command of multiple languages, so the more plausible explanation should be those deleted ones were reported with evidence or the mod used a tool to check all the threads

Multiple reports from different users about the different post within the same timeframe is very unlikely imo.

Maybe a global mod from one of those languages literally read and took care of all of them after discovering that the one in his language was not organically translated; it's a simple logic; if one of the translations was translated using an AI tool, one could easily assume that the others were also translated using AI.

If the one in Dutch was translated by the same agency and reported as bad, there's a significant possibility that the others are also bad.

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Quote from: Porfirii on December 13, 2024, 12:08:50 PM

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 13, 2024, 10:23:10 AM

-snip-

While I find the work of the AOBT commendable, I don't see why the only valid translations for bitcointalk have to be theirs and not those of an agency.

Other reputable translators can also be found in the Services board of the forum. When in doubt about their reliability, ask them about their previous work or portfolio and, most importantly, check if they are well known and active in their respective local boards.

Of course, that's a given among the members of the AoBT thanks to our rules, control mechanisms and public portfolios.

I am sure that you take more care of the quality and natural translation than the sworn translator I had to pay, but for my particular case only his signature was what I needed.

In this case of Best Change, I'm not just referring to the forum. He says that he has paid an agency outside the forum to translate. If so I understand that he can show an invoice or receipt to a mod or theymos if required to have the deleted posts republished. There are companies that advertise here and maybe it is not the only place where they advertise in multiple languages, we can't force them to hire someone from the forum.

But what worries me is the criteria the mods have followed to delete the posts, if they have followed any criteria other than a hunch.

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Quote from: Mia Chloe on December 13, 2024, 08:08:08 AM

-snip-
Nevertheless I suggest you get a much better and organic translator to get the job done. Don't know if you've tried them , I think you should contact Porfirii and the [AOBT] The Alliance Of Bitcointalk Translators if they offer translations in those languages.

Thank you for the mention Mia Chloe

yes, we are available and our native translators will be glad to help when needed.

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 13, 2024, 10:23:10 AM

-snip-

While I find the work of the AOBT commendable, I don't see why the only valid translations for bitcointalk have to be theirs and not those of an agency.

Other reputable translators can also be found in the Services board of the forum. When in doubt about their reliability, ask them about their previous work or portfolio and, most importantly, check if they are well known and active in their respective local boards.

Of course, that's a given among the members of the AoBT thanks to our rules, control mechanisms and public portfolios.

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@Bestchange I think you should use AOBT to translate your post in your local thread since the translated post done in our local board version of Bestchange ANN https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475294.20 is not that so natural in our local language.

This is my first time to actually read all the translated post done on our local board after reading this topic. Maybe the translation quality is really the main reason for thread deletion.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 13, 2024, 11:15:01 AM

Wouldn't all the others be removed as well in that case, rather than just a selected few?

My comment was merely a conjecture. Thinking about it, I don't think we have a mod who could assess the different threads in multiple languages and determine which was made using a tool and which wasn't. That will need command of multiple languages, so the more plausible explanation should be those deleted ones were reported with evidence or the mod used a tool to check all the threads

Multiple reports from different users about the different post within the same timeframe is very unlikely imo.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 13, 2024, 11:15:01 AM

Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 13, 2024, 10:23:10 AM

For me they were deleted rather on a hunch, because others had already been deleted.

Wouldn't all the others be removed as well in that case, rather than just a selected few?

Quote from: Upgrade00 on December 13, 2024, 11:06:08 AM

From the comment of a global mod above, it's possible there were no reports. Could have been a direct action by a mod based on their assessment of those posts.

We don't have a local mod ever since Lauda was removed (or he asked to be removed from that position, not sure really) long time ago so it couldn't be him and somehow I doubt that any of the others are fluent in Croatian.

AFAIK mods act on reports so it's possible they were deleted because they were reported and others stayed because they were not reported but without a moderator explaining what has happened we can only speculate. For further speculation, some moderator must have seen the report in the Croatian section and acted on it.

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Quote from: Don Pedro Dinero on December 13, 2024, 10:23:10 AM

For me they were deleted rather on a hunch, because others had already been deleted.

Wouldn't all the others be removed as well in that case, rather than just a selected few?

Quote from: Upgrade00 on December 13, 2024, 11:06:08 AM

From the comment of a global mod above, it's possible there were no reports. Could have been a direct action by a mod based on their assessment of those posts.

We don't have a local mod ever since Lauda was removed (or he asked to be removed from that position, not sure really) long time ago so it couldn't be him and somehow I doubt that any of the others are fluent in Croatian.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 13, 2024, 10:06:41 AM

Whoever reported it in our local board probably was too eager. Tongue

From the comment of a global mod above, it's possible there were no reports. Could have been a direct action by a mod based on their assessment of those posts.

Op, while waiting for a reply which may take a while, you can request the agency revise those deleted content and review them if there is a need to do so. Then repost them in the appropriate boards. If they are deleted again and an answer has not yet been given here, bump up the thread.

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Quote from: Rikafip on December 13, 2024, 10:06:41 AM

I only skimmed over their ANN when they published it in our local (Croatian) board so I can't be 100% sure, but from what I remember, it looked to me like it was translated by a native Croatian speaker.

Whoever reported it in our local board probably was too eager. Tongue

For me they were deleted rather on a hunch, because others had already been deleted.

Quote from: Lucius on December 13, 2024, 05:58:57 AM

That's the answer to your question - because if you want the translation to be good, then you need to find native speakers from each local board to translate your ANN. That "agency" most likely uses some online translation tools, and such translations are generally very poor and far from the standards they should have.

Not long ago I had to pay a sworn translator to translate documents from English into Spanish, who has to have a degree in English philology or equivalent and pass a very complex accreditation exam . Well, the translation I had to pay for had some mistakes that I could tell he had used an online translator and had missed a couple of words when revising. I would have translated it better but I am not a sworn translator.

While I find the work of the AOBT commendable, I don't see why the only valid translations for bitcointalk have to be theirs and not those of an agency.

What worries me more is that there is no method by which it can be established that a translation has been done with an automatic translator or not, and that the line between human and non-human translation is getting thinner every second, but in spite of that we have an obsolete rule that is applied depending on the hunch of the moderator on duty and not on objective criteria or a verifiable method.

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Quote from: Lucius on December 13, 2024, 05:58:57 AM

That's the answer to your question - because if you want the translation to be good, then you need to find native speakers from each local board to translate your ANN. That "agency" most likely uses some online translation tools, and such translations are generally very poor and far from the standards they should have.

I only skimmed over their ANN when they published it in our local (Croatian) board so I can't be 100% sure, but from what I remember, it looked to me like it was translated by a native Croatian speaker.

Whoever reported it in our local board probably was too eager. Tongue

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Hire aobt next time if you want the most bang for your buck.

These guys have an excellent team of translators and they worked on lots of translations before. The link I shared redirects to the forum thread.

Lots of shitty translators use AI nowadays, you don’t wanna waste your money.

AOBT. (Alliance of Bitcoin Translators)

Excellent team of translators.

AOBT.

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 13, 2024, 03:10:20 AM

the agency

You better be not trusting those agencies. Obviously they were using automated tools instead of a native speaking individuals. You are in the forum for long time and it wouldn't be hard for you to find native speakers and give them the jobs separately instead of the unknown [I think it was] agency. Even any reputed campaign manager could help you in it if you wanted. They must have trusted relationship with local users.

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Quote from: Lucius on December 13, 2024, 05:58:57 AM

That's the answer to your question - because if you want the translation to be good, then you need to find native speakers from each local board to translate your ANN. That "agency" most likely uses some online translation tools, and such translations are generally very poor and far from the standards they should have.

Exactly that's what I think best change should do. There is actually nothing as unique as a Native speaker making a translation to his language. I took am a translator though for pidgin and the truth is sometimes if you pull a couple of words apart they attain a totally different meaning from when they are placed together as a statement. And I think that's where most translation errors come into play.

Before now I thought the threads may have been deleted because they were likely reported by local board members as low quality translations , however based on what hilariousandco just said, I don't think it was as a result of reports. Nevertheless I suggest you get a much better and organic translator to get the job done. Don't know if you've tried them , I think you should contact Porfirii and the [AOBT] The Alliance Of Bitcointalk Translators if they offer translations in those languages.

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Quote from: Best_Change on December 13, 2024, 03:10:20 AM

~snip~
Earlier, our first Dutch thread was removed, and it was brought to our attention that the agency-made translation of the posts was of poor quality.

That's the answer to your question - because if you want the translation to be good, then you need to find native speakers from each local board to translate your ANN. That "agency" most likely uses some online translation tools, and such translations are generally very poor and far from the standards they should have.

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I can't see any reports but if they were badly translated then that's why.

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Quote from: acroman08 on December 13, 2024, 03:52:57 AM

Quote from: _act_ on December 13, 2024, 03:32:07 AM

Also Bestchange can contact the moderators or even contact theymos through PM.

to be honest, posting the issue they face here in Meta is probably the best way they could go about this issue instead of privately contacting the moderators or theymos.

Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:22:57 AM

Like you made mentioned it could be they are poorly translated and doesn't have the quality required as low efforts translation.

yep, probably the reason why the threads were deleted.

Then fine they should come respond to this post as to know why its being deleted. If you looked at the whole board he made mention you will see there is definitely an issue somewhere because, there wouldn't had been a day all these post are deleted from the mentioned local boards, and like I said earlier there is a missed up somewhere which they have used the wrong ^[1] sentence, ^[2] word on their translation.

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Quote from: _act_ on December 13, 2024, 03:32:07 AM

Also Bestchange can contact the moderators or even contact theymos through PM.

to be honest, posting the issue they face here in Meta is probably the best way they could go about this issue instead of privately contacting the moderators or theymos.

Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:22:57 AM

Like you made mentioned it could be they are poorly translated and doesn't have the quality required as low efforts translation.

yep, probably the reason why the threads were deleted.

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Quote from: _act_ on December 13, 2024, 03:32:07 AM

Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:22:57 AM

Like you made mentioned it could be they are poorly translated and doesn't have the quality required as low efforts translation.
Again, if there are any post (words) that goes against the community standard the mod/admin wouldn't hesitate to get it swipe off from the board, and this could be handled by the admins of those local board you made mentioned.

This will only be a guess. It would be better for the moderator or moderators that removed the translated thread to post about the reason the threads are removed. Also Bestchange can contact the moderators or even contact theymos through PM.

Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:22:57 AM

I will suggest you refer your question to the local board they were deleted to know why its done that way, or if you aren't that used to them, you can get a local poster to create a concern about why your ANN threads were removed.

What kind of refer did you mean? This is the best that can be done. It is good in Meta how it is now. Bestchange can not be using translator.

Talking about Theymos, that dude is fucking busy out there man! I don't think he would have that time responding to them knowing too well that he has people under him who can fixed up this minor issues. As I believe any deleted post can be restored by mod/admin without mentioning theymos himself. I will go with your suggestions at least to contact those local moderators, it's a nice idea.

Less I forget.. refer that I meant is to post on those locals through someone over there, but your suggestion counters all as it's the best.

_act_

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Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:22:57 AM

Like you made mentioned it could be they are poorly translated and doesn't have the quality required as low efforts translation.
Again, if there are any post (words) that goes against the community standard the mod/admin wouldn't hesitate to get it swipe off from the board, and this could be handled by the admins of those local board you made mentioned.

This will only be a guess. It would be better for the moderator or moderators that removed the translated thread to post about the reason the threads are removed. Also Bestchange can contact the moderators or even contact theymos through PM.

Quote from: Perfectbaby on December 13, 2024, 03:22:57 AM

I will suggest you refer your question to the local board they were deleted to know why its done that way, or if you aren't that used to them, you can get a local poster to create a concern about why your ANN threads were removed.

What kind of refer did you mean? This is the best that can be done. It is good in Meta how it is now. Bestchange can not be using translator.

Perfectbaby

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Like you made mentioned it could be they are poorly translated and doesn't have the quality required as low efforts translation.
Again, if there are any post (words) that goes against the community standard the mod/admin wouldn't hesitate to get it swipe off from the board, and this could be handled by the admins of those local board you made mentioned.

I will suggest you refer your question to the local board they were deleted to know why its done that way, or if you aren't that used to them, you can get a local poster to create a concern about why your ANN threads were removed.

Anyway sorry for that..

Best_Change

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Dear everyone, and first and foremost. admins of local sections,

Can you give some insight as to why our threads were removed from Japanese. Hebrew, Croatian, Greek and Swedish section?

Earlier, our first Dutch thread was removed, and it was brought to our attention that the agency-made translation of the posts was of poor quality. We reached out to the agency and they made a thorough analysis of issue and provided us with the new translation. The thread in the Dutch section is now active.

Can you give us an idea what the issue is with all the above-mentioned threads?

Thank you.

Topic: Removal of BestChange ANN from local sections (Read 1097 times)