Just an idea, we should start a case study on this. So we can answer this question once and for all.
IMO in my experience, cloudmining was a dud. This is way back when the price was $300ish though.
Topic: Renting Hash Power, is it profitable? (Read 15038 times)
In the general the renting of hash isnt profitable, you will need lucky to find a block, and anyway you will need the hash to get those block credited to you, soo you may end loosing more then getting with those renting. People should be honest about their renting income and cost, anyway there is no way to predict, but i do see this as scam since only the owner does profit for the rent.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
wow you screwed up badly ! You went from 100% to 4% Why did you think you would make profit anyway ? It couldn't be that easy or they would do it for themselves. It is mainly for mining new altcoins or altcoins with bonus pow for early investors. Some currencies are cheaper to mine the to buy on the market. Inflation coin for example is 6x cheaper to mine then to buy it off the exchange.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
This is exactly how to think about it. If I can make $100 mining with the hardware, why would I do MORE work (I still run the hardware, but now I also have to deal with accounting, user maintenance, etc.) and charge less than $100? Hint: I wouldn't. It doesn't make business sense.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
in my experience using hashnest where i only invested around .015btc, i am getting atleast 5k satoshi daily (fees excluded), so i can say it might be profitable only if the bitcoin price rises together with the mining difficulty but if btc price don't rise it will not be profitable after some months
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
how long you get return 40k satoshi from investment 0.01 bitcoin
is every day, you only 25 day you can BEP
if every week you must 25 week you can get BEP, or still under one year you can bep(still competitif return)
if every month you wait over 2 year can get BEP(not competitif return investment)
yes if you are the one renting it otherswise no as I'm sure the persons renting out the hash will get a payment from u and from the hash you rent.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
This is exactly how to think about it. If I can make $100 mining with the hardware, why would I do MORE work (I still run the hardware, but now I also have to deal with accounting, user maintenance, etc.) and charge less than $100? Hint: I wouldn't. It doesn't make business sense.
that doesn't make sense as a reason in my opinion.
and I am not saying nicehash or whatever the name is, is legit business but the reasoning here does not make sense to me.
assuming there is a legit cloud mining like the 2014 GHASH.IO, it always makes sense to sell hashpower, it is like any other businesses if it is profitable you start taking investors to be able to grow your business, you take 50 investors and buy a lot more hash power and by sharing that additional revenue you are increasing your profit.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
This is exactly how to think about it. If I can make $100 mining with the hardware, why would I do MORE work (I still run the hardware, but now I also have to deal with accounting, user maintenance, etc.) and charge less than $100? Hint: I wouldn't. It doesn't make business sense.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
I get all your point. and thanks for a heads up for me not to rent hash power again. but the question right now is, why are there still people renting hash power on them spending like 1 bitcoin or more. I just dont really get it.
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
They mine new coins that has low difficulty of mining and the coins that new on exchangers and still there are values, they usually renting hash power on nicehash.(at least it is my experience when looking for new coins will be mined).
And they doesn't mined old coins (dash,bitcoin, litecoin and other coins that has high difficulty of mining),
Because it is un profitable.
I therefore conclude that renting hash power is profitable, it all depends what coins to mine.
But the problem there are many scam coins and difficulty of choosing new coins will give the profit.
And long time for waiting until the coins on exchangers.
In my opinion it is complex ways for trading altcoins and not suitable for me, but everything depend on our strategy of mining and trading.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
It is sometimes profitable and sometimes not. Also be careful of scams in renting hash or using cloud mining. It's profitable if you pay for the service at a fixed rate and then the prices of what you are mining shoots up. For example, if you rent a bitcoin miner 1 year ago and you are just break-even at that point. By now you have doubled earnings but kept the cost the same. Hence you profited already. Maybe you just have to know when to see all your mined assets.
Renting Hash Power Profitable : NOPE
why many people still renting hash power: Gullible
why many people still renting hash power: Gullible
No. It's not. Ever. Just don't do it. They're always all a scam 100% of the time. Avoid them at all costs!!!
The amount of people claiming it isn't profitable is funny. Actually research/learn about the topic before lying about it first, thanks.
NiceHash isn't a scam 100% of the time, though they don't care if people withhold blocks on their service (bad). MRR doesn't allow this IIRC.
It definitely can be profitable. You should read the solo ckpool thread, there's been a bunch of people who found blocks from renting hash from legit sites, and made crazy profit. It probably won't be though.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
I get all your point. and thanks for a heads up for me not to rent hash power again. but the question right now is, why are there still people renting hash power on them spending like 1 bitcoin or more. I just dont really get it.
The more reason not to give them your money. They are now truly passing all the risk to their customers if they are essentially gambling in altcoins which are all ponzi schemes.
The answer to why there are people still buying? I ask you, are they really buying? How do you know? What if they are all paid shills in the forum trying to scam you?
Renting hash power means cloud mining as far as I understand it.
There are already a lot of topics about cloud mining, and all have one thing in common:
They say don't do it.
I can only agree to that!
It's only profitable to the company who makes the offer of renting hash power.
There are already a lot of topics about cloud mining, and all have one thing in common:
They say don't do it.
I can only agree to that!
It's only profitable to the company who makes the offer of renting hash power.
A disclaimer (before anything), I do agree that cloud mining is scam in the majority if not all cases (I've been always telling this myself), but there is a point which I can't really understand. The main argument against cloud mining is that why anyone would want to sell hashing power when they could just mine bitcoins themselves? But in absolutely the same manner, I could ask as well why would any mining equipment manufacturer want to sell their hardware if they could just as easily mine bitcoins themselves, and do that with even higher profits than miners (since they would always have top-notch equipment)?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so bear with me
Lol that made me think for a minute. But the that was 100% accurate , there is always a reason behind everything. That does mean that you do agree now that cloud mining platform can really be a sort of income for bitcoin users? Or you were just stack on the same idea on why did they really sell it?
Well, I have my perspective in the certain mining hardware of why it was made and being sold. I can only say that it is a part of promoting bitcoin
Renting hash power means cloud mining as far as I understand it.
There are already a lot of topics about cloud mining, and all have one thing in common:
They say don't do it.
I can only agree to that!
It's only profitable to the company who makes the offer of renting hash power.
There are already a lot of topics about cloud mining, and all have one thing in common:
They say don't do it.
I can only agree to that!
It's only profitable to the company who makes the offer of renting hash power.
A disclaimer (before anything), I do agree that cloud mining is scam in the majority if not all cases (I've been always telling this myself), but there is a point which I can't really understand. The main argument against cloud mining is that why anyone would want to sell hashing power when they could just mine bitcoins themselves? But in absolutely the same manner, I could ask as well why would any mining equipment manufacturer want to sell their hardware if they could just as easily mine bitcoins themselves, and do that with even higher profits than miners (since they would always have top-notch equipment)?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so bear with me
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
because cloud hash is it done in the way that you might get something in the very long term as a return, especially if bitcoin increase, that is the only earning you will ever get from them if they are legit of course
Renting hash power means cloud mining as far as I understand it.
There are already a lot of topics about cloud mining, and all have one thing in common:
They say don't do it.
I can only agree to that!
It's only profitable to the company who makes the offer of renting hash power.
There are already a lot of topics about cloud mining, and all have one thing in common:
They say don't do it.
I can only agree to that!
It's only profitable to the company who makes the offer of renting hash power.
No it is not profitable at all .u l get the money back as long as they are profitable and actually they l only give ur money back .and u l end up no profit at all.well why dont u do signature campaigns ? U have to work hard but at the end of the day u l earn with it .
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
I don't know if it is really profitable now a days renting hash power to mine bitcoin is like your depositing your bitcoin and mining your own money it will took you 3 to 5 months before you will get your full investment back , how if the website turned into scam? And run all your money what you gonna do? Trained your self to trade. 
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
It's a little bit different with the cloud mining but both never give you a profit even cloud mining still can give you a profit if you can be a patient to waiting till you get ROI. 
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
Your own example tells you everything you need to know, the best way to get bitcoin in my opinion is to personally mine a profitable altcoin and convert or just buy the bitcoin itself
if you will rent mining rigs with bitcoin to mine bitcoin itself is not profitable
difficulty rise and there also so a lot of competitor
but if you will use the rigs you rent to mine alt
maybe you can make profit or altleast break even
I call Bullshit,
Post the #s.
Post the #s.
Yeah probably but i love to take the opportunity anyways i just add up some small amounts that i can afford to lose and the thing here is that i don't have to do anything on it all i have to do is continue with my life then look at my amounts once in a while.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
Your own example tells you everything you need to know, the best way to get bitcoin in my opinion is to personally mine a profitable altcoin and convert or just buy the bitcoin itself
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
people do all kinds of crazy stuff with their money these days and in bitcoin world the situation is even worse, because most of all there are lots of newbies around and lots of underage kinds who don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing.
so they jump at the first false promise to invest their little amount of money they have and surely enough they get scammed easily.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
How could it be profitable? Why would anyone pay additionally for something which does not make money to them. There s no space for this premium payment which could generate profits for you.
My answer is maybe. If you are patient enough. I think atleast you can get profit from cloud mining. But for me, its not worth of my money to invest at any cloud mining. Im just gonna find a profitable job here than spend my money and my time from that. Maybe if you invest at the time when bitcoin is just starting. Maybe you could get a huge profit. I think its better to mine on your own than investing on cloudmining.
You can make a profit just by renting hash power, it is profitable only in the long run because it takes time. You need to wait to gain more. But if I were you I will choose the other way of investing. They say that process is no longer profitable due to time wasting...
renting hash power in website is not profitable as there are only short time we are renting and we spend big budget to rented. for example, if you have 0.01 btc and you rent for 24 hours and you only get 0.0004 btc is quietly not profitable, but i don't know if you are mining with altcoin which have low diff. maybe you can get profit by this, but in my opinion, this is not profitable. better you buy hash power in cloud mining and you can get your ROI for 8 month.
Renting a hashpower is not profitable if you mine bitcoin but if you will mine new coins then you will profit. But that profit will be harvested after holding in a month or more after selling your mined coins. Remember that timing is important in selling coins since that is the key towards income. Another thing if you sell it immediately make sure to compute your expenses in mining and place the price much higher compared to your expenses.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
I think you have wasted your money because it will take long to get your returns because there transaction fee is always high. Renting hash power is wasting of money, it is simply nothing but cloud mining, they will mine with your money and the will send little bit of profits to you. You will make good profit while doing trading btc/usd.
calculate it with your self and see,you will not return a dem from your money if you do that
I do rent hash power and yes it is profitable but the question would be how much time were you going to earned your ROI? during this past months difficulty went really high so probably it would take you 8-15 months to get back your investment. I only invest in hashnest anyways
Renting hash power means you are investing into external site that means crowd funding site means you won't make much profit with them. Because the will collect your earning in the form of fee and they will pay only less amount of money. Really it will take long to get back your investment, many people are fed up with these sites not giving any profit after a year also.
The Difficulty increases every 2 weeks, the longer you mine the more you lose, as you never even break even.
Quit Lying.
Depends, it might even decrease. Look at 22 Oct 2016 and 2 Aug 2016. Also factor in the fact that maintanence fees are based on USD and the market price can vary a lot.Quit Lying.
Note that, I actually support his idea that Cloudmining will almost ALWAYS yield a negative return but it is possible to make a profit.
The service provided by Nicehash is ran by people who are looking for profit and they don't own a huge datacenter or warehouse. The rates there are extremely inflated and it is IMPOSSIBLE to make any money off it unless you mine an altcoin and it increases in value tremendously. That's what its used for.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
It seems you are investing on a cloudmining site.If you put 0.01 then expected profits on daily basis would be very very low and expect your ROI would be longer and it may take 6 or more months depends on mining difficulty but remember if you invest on a wrong cloudmining then say goodbye already on your money because they will sure go scam in upcoming days or weeks.Again , Bullshit,
The Difficulty increases every 2 weeks, the longer you mine the more you lose, as you never even break even.
Quit Lying.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
It seems you are investing on a cloudmining site.If you put 0.01 then expected profits on daily basis would be very very low and expect your ROI would be longer and it may take 6 or more months depends on mining difficulty but remember if you invest on a wrong cloudmining then say goodbye already on your money because they will sure go scam in upcoming days or weeks.Again , Bullshit,
The Difficulty increases every 2 weeks, the longer you mine the more you lose, as you never even break even.
Quit Lying.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
It seems you are investing on a cloudmining site.If you put 0.01 then expected profits on daily basis would be very very low and expect your ROI would be longer and it may take 6 or more months depends on mining difficulty but remember if you invest on a wrong cloudmining then say goodbye already on your money because they will sure go scam in upcoming days or weeks. I do rent hash power and yes it is profitable but the question would be how much time were you going to earned your ROI? during this past months difficulty went really high so probably it would take you 8-15 months to get back your investment. I only invest in hashnest anyways
I call Bullshit,
Post the #s.
It is a nice way to wash money, if you asking me. You create some legitimate company selling hashing power and you push some illegal money through it in a Ponzi type funding. The supposed investors could be your own "dirty" money. Some of these people rent out the hashing power and once they hooked enough people or when they hook a shark, they just close shop and dissapear. These operations are full of scammers, so I would avoid them at all cost.
I do rent hash power and yes it is profitable but the question would be how much time were you going to earned your ROI? during this past months difficulty went really high so probably it would take you 8-15 months to get back your investment. I only invest in hashnest anyways
Avoid it completely don't go for such tactics to make btc. You should have first asked here and then go ahead to invest in it. Hope you have not invested more than what you have written here. If there were huge profits why would they give you, use logic rather greed. This schemes are carefully marketed to confuse people, but with Lil efforts you can force a way out, all you need is to apply logic, and next time make good use of this forum, first search what you need and then post if there no answer available. But just don't go for such schemes.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
Are you talking about cloud mining?
No,it`s not profitable.It`s a scam.Just don`t do it.
I don`t know why people still fall into this scam.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
Renting Hash Power Profitable : NOPE
why many people still renting hash power: Gullible
If someone is renting it out, it means they make more money from renting than if they used it themselves.
You were smart to pick up that you were being scammed, some people never do.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
Are you renting the hash power or leasing it,leasing the hash power is not at all a profitable thing if you are investing small amount of money ,you wont really get your initial investment back if you are going to do that.
If you find a good altcoin to mine, sure
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
First, the Mining board would be more suitable for this...
The hashing power providers (renters) are looking for at least the reward of mining bitcoin directly, and if they will incur a loss when they rent hashing power to you, they'll just mine bitcoin directly. So the hash power rentals will be more expensive than the bitcoins mined (or other altcoins) and it is hence not profitable.
P.S. Unless the price of BTC skyrockets 10-20% in a day so the payment amount (if settled in USD) is less than the bitcoins mined (the same as the difficulty goes down). But by this you can simply buy BTC with USD (or EUR, GBP...) and forget about renting hash powers.
The hashing power providers (renters) are looking for at least the reward of mining bitcoin directly, and if they will incur a loss when they rent hashing power to you, they'll just mine bitcoin directly. So the hash power rentals will be more expensive than the bitcoins mined (or other altcoins) and it is hence not profitable.
P.S. Unless the price of BTC skyrockets 10-20% in a day so the payment amount (if settled in USD) is less than the bitcoins mined (the same as the difficulty goes down). But by this you can simply buy BTC with USD (or EUR, GBP...) and forget about renting hash powers.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
no harm, in some period of time you will be back for sure BTC + profit, maybe people choose to rent hash for estimating the cost of hardware, internet and electricity, better hire a hash albeit a small profit
No. It's not. Ever. Just don't do it. They're always all a scam 100% of the time. Avoid them at all costs!!!
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
They mine new coins that has low difficulty of mining and the coins that new on exchangers and still there are values, they usually renting hash power on nicehash.(at least it is my experience when looking for new coins will be mined).
And they doesn't mined old coins (dash,bitcoin, litecoin and other coins that has high difficulty of mining),
Because it is un profitable.
I therefore conclude that renting hash power is profitable, it all depends what coins to mine.
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
They mine new coins that has low difficulty of mining and the coins that new on exchangers and still there are values, they usually renting hash power on nicehash.(at least it is my experience when looking for new coins will be mined).
And they doesn't mined old coins (dash,bitcoin, litecoin and other coins that has high difficulty of mining),
Because it is un profitable.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
I get all your point. and thanks for a heads up for me not to rent hash power again. but the question right now is, why are there still people renting hash power on them spending like 1 bitcoin or more. I just dont really get it.
maybe that explains it why people are renting enormous amount of hashing power. thanks for the answer man.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
I get all your point. and thanks for a heads up for me not to rent hash power again. but the question right now is, why are there still people renting hash power on them spending like 1 bitcoin or more. I just dont really get it.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
First ask yourself why Nicehash are renting out hash power. Did it not occur to you that their rigs are not profitable for themselves? The purpose of renting out hash power is to transfer their risk to you. You are the hedge in their risk of their mining operation. So the answer to your question is a simple no.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
No, Because hash power to give another at rent is much loss for you , as the hash power give by you at rent will give to the hash power profit owned by the person is more then rent and he is getting Profit until the power works without doing .So think about it thoroughly .
No, renting hash power is almost never profitable, think of it like this, would you sell someone mining hash when you could make more by just doing it yourself?
then why people rent and spend so much money? that is what boggles me.
Well, I rent hash power on nicehash and I spend 0.01 btc. after spending all of it, I only got 0.0004 in return. is renting hash power profitable? then why many people still renting hash power on them. am I doing something wrong?
Jump to: