Restoring from an Electrum-v1 passphrase

nc50lc

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Quote from: drmindset on December 14, 2020, 12:23:50 AM

Quote from: nc50lc on December 13, 2020, 05:23:37 AM

I have already mentioned the possibility of it being a "brainwallet" in the very first reply in this thread.

...thank you for that. Does that mean that early bitcoin addresses were except for the way they were generated, brainwallets?
-snop-

No, but it's famous around the early years of the Bitcoin.

The reason is just what I've described in that post: Because you called your random set of words as "passphrase", that gave me an idea that it could be a brainwallet.
It's what they call the phrase that the private key will be based.

drmindset

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Quote from: nc50lc on December 13, 2020, 05:23:37 AM

I have already mentioned the possibility of it being a "brainwallet" in the very first reply in this thread.

...thank you for that. Does that mean that early bitcoin addresses were except for the way they were generated, brainwallets?

Quote from: nc50lc on December 13, 2020, 05:23:37 AM

If you're looking for an alternative tool (yours is for cracking/generating random brainwallets), you might wanna use: https://brainwalletx.github.io/#generator (download the source and use on an offline machine).
After pasting your "passphrase", a private key and address pair will be generated ("toggle key" to display prvKey),
check the address on a blockexplorer if it has a balance.

I'll try this first. If I'm successful, I'll post the frustrating details of this wallet.

nc50lc

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Quote from: drmindset on December 13, 2020, 04:42:00 AM

The folks over at Electrum were so kind to offer advice and told me that I may have a BRAIN WALLET, given that in 2011 there was no checksum. I think this is what I have. I'm assuming that Electrum at that time generated the same wallet and that the two wallets were cross platform.
-snip-

I have already mentioned the possibility of it being a "brainwallet" in the very first reply in this thread.

Anyways, it's a totally different thing, it's not a mnemonic/seed phrase, neither implemented in Electrum.
It's simply a way to use phrases or words as a private key by getting the SHA-256 sum of it.
If you're looking for an alternative tool (yours is for cracking/generating random brainwallets), you might wanna use: https://brainwalletx.github.io/#generator (download the source and use on an offline machine).
After pasting your "passphrase", a private key and address pair will be generated ("toggle key" to display prvKey),
check the address on a blockexplorer if it has a balance.

drmindset

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The folks over at Electrum were so kind to offer advice and told me that I may have a BRAIN WALLET, given that in 2011 there was no checksum. I think this is what I have. I'm assuming that Electrum at that time generated the same wallet and that the two wallets were cross platform.

I've tried off https://github.com/ryancdotorg/brainflayer and see that he recently updated it. I'll try it again.
Are there any other similar tools out there?

pooya87

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Have you tried contacting the developer of Electrum? They definitely know and remember a lot more about the very early versions when Electrum was in beta phase and about things that have significantly changed about the wallet creation that are not backward compatible.
You can create a new issue here: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/issues

drmindset

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As I recall, Electrum was in beta, however accessible through the bitcoin download website.

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you want such early version of Electrum, your only choice is to compile from source code from https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/.
You need to checkout to commit hash which created on February/March 2011 though.

Am I right to assume that an early version of Electrum will generate a different wallet and resultant keys than a more recent version, even one year later?
I'm willing to do this given the possibility of recovering the bitcoins.

I'm not sure how to go about doing this, though I can figure it out.

HCP

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Your problem is going to be that there simply weren't any versions of Electrum prior to Nov 2011 (at least on Github)... whether or not ThomasV has copies of anything created prior to uploading to Github I don't know, nor whether it would be of any use to you. Huh

The initial commit is Nov 5th 2011: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/commits/master?after=c81551299ef470d8580b56c316be242a0b810d7c+13120&branch=master
"v0.26 commit" is shown here on Nov 16th 2011: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/commits/master?before=c81551299ef470d8580b56c316be242a0b810d7c+13086&branch=master

"version 0.25" commit (which seems to be when the "version" was first explicitly written in the source code) is here: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/commit/8687c632263115d3868894a6c0d712856d77ac93

drmindset

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Now that is making more sense.
My seed-phrase is a pretty sure thing, though I'll probably need to try a few combinations, the variations are nothing outrageous.
How can I get an early 'beta' version of Electrum from around February/March 2011?
I'm contacting https://bitcoinelectrum.com/restoring-your-standard-wallet-from-seed/ to see if they have a solution.

nc50lc

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Quote from: drmindset on December 10, 2020, 02:40:07 AM

The release notes in Version 0.34 don't look promising for recovering my old bitcoins.
In it the notes state:

Quote

Wallets created before the change are incompatible with the new version, and that users need to move their bitcoins. We apologize for the inconvenience. We try to keep this kind of upgrades as rare as possible.

Perhaps this is why old Electrum wallet's that I've recovered don't load.
-snip-

If they are from version v0.34(-1release) or v0.31(-1release) and below, then the wallet files indeed wont work with any later versions.

Additionally, it's "not promising" in way that in later versions, restoring the seed phrase from the said versions may not produce the correct keys.
If that happened, you can try to restore your seed phrase (once you've recovered it) to those versions and see if your addresses will show up.
Problem is, those aren't available on GitHub repo.

BTW, you've cut the very important part of the quote:

Quote

This page lists versions of Electrum that are incompatible with the previous version. These incompatibilities are caused by a change in the key derivation algorithm.

Quote

LIST OF UPGRADES:
-----------------
Version 0.34: The key derivation was changed again in version 0.34, in order to offer "type 2 wallet" capabilities.
Version 0.31: This version fixes a vulnerability in the key generation function.

drmindset

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The release notes in Version 0.34 don't look promising for recovering my old bitcoins.
In it the notes state:

Quote

Wallets created before the change are incompatible with the new version, and that users need to move their bitcoins. We apologize for the inconvenience. We try to keep this kind of upgrades as rare as possible.

Perhaps this is why old Electrum wallet's that I've recovered don't load.
...and

Quote

Note that you may keep your current seed. For this, all you need to do is to create the new wallet using the wallet recovery procedure. You will not recover your old wallet with the new software, but you will get a new wallet instead.

Perhaps this last quoted statement means that my old seed (mnemonic) will work as everybody suggests? My bitcoin is from approximately Mar 2011.
I'm going to try recovering from the old Electrum install.
Btcrecover though promising, is taking a while and I'm not sure the code is actually doing anything.

drmindset

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Quote from: nc50lc on December 04, 2020, 05:05:41 AM

Quote from: drmindset on December 04, 2020, 02:53:06 AM

-snip- My 12-word seed-phrase order is wrong.

Ah, so the previous unanswered questions about your seed phrase's order were answered.
This complicates things since you need a tool that can correct the order and supports old Electrum seed before you can even try to import it to old Electrum version.

Well, I recall entering them in order with one or two inserts as decoys. Funny to decoy my own mnemonic. I'm hoping btcrecover's seedphrase recovery tool will be able to get it.

nc50lc

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Quote from: drmindset on December 04, 2020, 02:53:06 AM

-snip- My 12-word seed-phrase order is wrong.

Ah, so the previous unanswered questions about your seed phrase's order were answered.
This complicates things since you need a tool that can correct the order and supports old Electrum seed before you can even try to import it to old Electrum version.

drmindset

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Quote from: Abdussamad on November 30, 2020, 12:12:26 PM

if you want to try an old version, you can get it via the git repo. however, it should not be necessary since the latest version supports old seeds.

If there is no way that the current version would not be able to restore an old Electrum wallet,
...and I cannot see my keys in v4.0.5; yet, I still see the funded public address online, untouched. My 12-word seed-phrase order is wrong.
I'll keep searching.
I may need to approach a service soon.

Abdussamad

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Quote from: drmindset on November 29, 2020, 04:25:06 AM

Using old archived versions of Electrum is probably the way to go however the files listed in the archive go back only to 2015. The wallet I wish to restore was created in 2011.

Quote from: nc50lc on November 26, 2020, 01:58:26 AM

Try to restore it in v1.8-1.9.8 that can be downloaded from the "Previous releases" link in the official site (https://electrum.org/#download).

Quote from: nc50lc on November 26, 2020, 01:58:26 AM

Then open the wallet file "electrum.dat" using the latest version 4.0.5 (File->Open->Browse to the location) to sync it to the network and to see your balance.

Do you know if anything changed that might not allow this approach?

old seeds are supported in the latest electrum so what exactly is the problem? a random set of words in that list should restore a wallet since there is no checksum. so what is the problem you are facing? are there no funds in the restored wallet? no history on the history tab? or is there a history but 0 balance?

edit: how many words in this seed you have selected? current versions don't support old seeds smaller than 12 words because that's what the software generated at the time. so that may be the issue you are facing.

if you want to try an old version you can get it via the git repo. however it should not be necessary since the latest version supports old seeds.

nc50lc

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Quote from: drmindset on November 29, 2020, 04:25:06 AM

Quote from: nc50lc on November 26, 2020, 01:58:26 AM

Try to restore it in v1.8-1.9.8 that can be downloaded from the "Previous releases" link in the official site (https://electrum.org/#download).

Quote from: nc50lc on November 26, 2020, 01:58:26 AM

Then open the wallet file "electrum.dat" using the latest version 4.0.5 (File->Open->Browse to the location) to sync it to the network and to see your balance.

Do you know if anything changed that might not allow this approach?

There are some changes from 1.1 to 1.8 but the seed itself should be in the same format and Electrum has kept backward-compatibility when it comes with wallet file or seed phrase import.
Here's the release notes: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/master/RELEASE-NOTES (from v1.5.7 to the latest)

Before I posted my reply, I've already tested it with a newly created wallet by 1.8.1 and opened the "electrum.dat" using v4.0.5 and it opens without any error.
The addresses is the address tab are also the same.
But I can't launch electrum v1.1 from source for some reason.

drmindset

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Using old archived versions of Electrum is probably the way to go however the files listed in the archive go back only to 2015. The wallet I wish to restore was created in 2011.

Quote from: nc50lc on November 26, 2020, 01:58:26 AM

Try to restore it in v1.8-1.9.8 that can be downloaded from the "Previous releases" link in the official site (https://electrum.org/#download).

Quote from: nc50lc on November 26, 2020, 01:58:26 AM

Then open the wallet file "electrum.dat" using the latest version 4.0.5 (File->Open->Browse to the location) to sync it to the network and to see your balance.

Do you know if anything changed that might not allow this approach?

pooya87

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Quote from: NotATether on November 26, 2020, 03:44:03 AM

But how did you create an Electrum wallet solely out of a passphrase, with no seed?

For some reason it is possible to create a new wallet and select "I already have a seed" then enter a bunch of random words after selecting "BIP39" option and create a new wallet from that. The count can be anything and there is no checksum validation failure either. You still get a new wallet with a mater key.
It is hard to understand what OP really did, I'm just pointing out that the possibility exists.

NotATether

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Quote from: drmindset on November 25, 2020, 12:18:43 AM

I've been working with 3rdIteration/btcrecover to parse through the scrambled word-set I used to create the passphrase.

So that means the words really are scrambled, because a passphrase is just a bunch of words put together. You're trying to guess the correct order of your words to get your passphrase (which I'm guessing is the password to your Electrum wallet). This is probably what you meant when you said brainwallet, right?

But how did you create an Electrum wallet solely out of a passphrase, with no seed? Unless the passphrase is just a permutation of your seed? If you don't also have the wallet.dat file, there's no use looking for the password.

nc50lc

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Quote from: drmindset on November 26, 2020, 01:18:23 AM

I meant "seed phrase", the word mnemonic used to recover a wallet. It is a Brainwallet using a set of words that are in the 2048-word list -->
-snip-
It's not a pure Brainwallet of self-selected, non-list verified words.

"Brainwallet" is a different thing, it's basically a SHA-256 sum of the "passphrase" that will be used as a private key.
Based from your reply, it can not be a Brainwallet.

Quote from: drmindset on November 26, 2020, 01:18:23 AM

I'm able to import a seed mnemonic from a wallet created with a random set of words derived from the old format, like "black brown red green black brown red green black brown red green".
-snip-
Perhaps my final word does not compute a proper checksum. (?)

Random picked words from the old wordlist works because there's currently no "seed version system" before v2 (link).

I've tested with v1.8.1 and it accepts 12+ words when restoring a wallet from the old list while the latest version only takes 12 or 24.

If you're certain of the seed phrase and the words all belong to the old wordlist:
Try to restore it in v1.8-1.9.8 that can be downloaded from the "Previous releases" link in the official site.
When prompted with connection errors, cancel everything until the wallet is created.
Then open the wallet file "electrum.dat" using the latest version 4.0.5 (File->Open->Browse to the location) to sync it to the network and to see your balance.

HCP

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Quote from: drmindset on November 26, 2020, 01:18:23 AM

I meant "seed phrase", the word mnemonic used to recover a wallet. It is a Brainwallet using a set of words that are in the 2048-word list --> https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/1.9.8/lib/mnemonic.py.
It's not a pure Brainwallet of self-selected, non-list verified words.

"Brainwallet"? Huh

So, you're certain that you selected the 12 words yourself? and they were not randomly chosen and displayed to you by the application when you created the wallet? Or did you get the 12 words from the application during wallet creation, and just wrote them down in a jumbled order and now cannot remember the correct order? Huh

Also, for the record, that list only has 1626 words Wink

Quote from: drmindset on November 26, 2020, 01:18:23 AM

Also, I read in the forum that the required number of words wasn't always a standard 12-word set. This was implemented in 2015. Are these extra words currently inserted at the extended words menu, or were they part of the seed phrase entered to generate the wallet?

If you're referring to Electrum having 13 word seed phrases etc, they were part of the seed phrase itself as far as I'm aware, and as such were still part of the word list... the 13th word was really just a checksum.

"extended words", on the other hand, can literally be anything like "^sdg@!#ah123" or "These Are My Extended Words" or "oneTwoThree" etc.

Quote from: drmindset on November 26, 2020, 01:18:23 AM

Aside from https://github.com/3rdIteration/btcrecover/, are the other reliable Electrum seed phrase recovery tools available?

I'm sure the various recovery services have their own custom scripts (or derivations of btcrecover)... but there aren't any other "public" tools that I'm aware of for trying to recover Electrum seed phrases.

drmindset

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Thanks for the help offered.

I meant "seed phrase", the word mnemonic used to recover a wallet. It is a Brainwallet using a set of words that are in the 2048-word list --> https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/1.9.8/lib/mnemonic.py.
It's not a pure Brainwallet of self-selected, non-list verified words.

I'm able to import a seed mnemonic from a wallet created with a random set of words derived from the old format, like "black brown red green black brown red green black brown red green".

Perhaps my final word does not compute a proper checksum. (?)
Also, I read in the forum that the required number of words wasn't always a standard 12-word set. This was implemented in 2015. Are these extra words currently inserted at the extended words menu, or were they part of the seed phrase entered to generate the wallet?

Aside from https://github.com/3rdIteration/btcrecover/, are the other reliable Electrum seed phrase recovery tools available?

bob123

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Quote from: drmindset on November 25, 2020, 12:18:43 AM

I used an Electrum-v1 based passphrase to create a wallet many years ago. I've been working with 3rdIteration/btcrecover to parse through the scrambled word-set I used to create the passphrase. Are there any other methods available for recovering a wallet from an Electrum-v1 wordlist? The words I used do not work in the current version of Electrum.

Your post is lacking crucial information.
No one will be able to help you without you providing proper information, such as:

What exactly do you mean with "Electrum-v1 based passphrase"
What do you mean with "scrambled word-set". Are you talking about your mnemonic code? Don't you remember the order?
What do you mean with "Electrum-v1 wordlist". The 2048 words wordlist? Or your mnemonic?

Please answer these questions and be as precise as possible.

HCP

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Can you please just clarify a couple of things... as I'm unsure exactly how you generated the seed mnemonic you're attempting to recover using btcrecover...

Quote from: drmindset on November 25, 2020, 12:18:43 AM

... the scrambled word-set I used to create the passphrase.

So, you used a custom wordlist to generate the passphrase? Or did you take the 12 word seed mnemonic generated by Electrum v1.x and then scrambled the order? Huh

Quote

Are there any other methods available for recovering a wallet from an Electrum-v1 wordlist? The words I used do not work in the current version of Electrum.

The old words will be detected as a "Old" seed by Electrum... I just created a 12 word seed mnemonic in an old version of Electrum (1.8.1 portable)... When I attempt to import that seed mnemonic into Electrum 4.0.5 it is still accepted:

nc50lc

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Passphrase?
Do you mean "seed phrase"? Which is the 12-words used to recover the wallet since you've mentioned "wordlist".
AFAIK, it should work in the new version and it will be recognized as "old" when you try to restore it.
Speaking of wordlist, here's the old wordlist (before v2): https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/1.9.8/lib/mnemonic.py
Check if your passphrase's words are in it.

You might be using a "Brainwallet" instead of Electrum seed phrase because of the term "passphrase" for seed phrase.

drmindset

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I used an Electrum-v1 based passphrase to create a wallet many years ago. I've been working with 3rdIteration/btcrecover to parse through the scrambled word-set I used to create the passphrase. Are there any other methods available for recovering a wallet from an Electrum-v1 wordlist? The words I used do not work in the current version of Electrum.

Topic: Restoring from an Electrum-v1 passphrase (Read 642 times)