Restoring Trezor on Electrum with correct seed phrase fails?

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 22, 2024, 12:56:55 AM

Sending from the offline wallet still prompts error: There are no funds. I am BTC is on the BTC network and the offline wallet is only to use the private key to sign the standard watching only wallet's transaction,

Don't use the offline Electrum to send.
I see that no one provided you any instructions, these are the correct steps on how to do it in offline Electrum and watch-only Electrum pair: https://bitcoinelectrum.com/creating-a-cold-storage-wallet-in-electrum/
For non-Electrum watch-only wallet, read my previous reply.

Quote from: eiger3970 on September 22, 2024, 12:56:55 AM

-snip-, however I am still trying to sort out restoring the wallets first.

Yes, better stick to the original topic issue, this thread has deviated from it since you've brought up discussion about Cold Storage and Tails.
You may create a new topic if you have additional questions or if want to continue those discussions.

Honestly, I was in the impression that you've already figured it out after that post and the subsequent replies below it.

Quote from: eiger3970

So I've been restoring the old Trezor 24 word mnemonic/seed phrase multiple times with its passphrase.
A new Electrum BIP39 wallet is created with nothing, probably as there's no funds or transactions on the old Trezor cold wallet.

Quote from: eiger3970

I'm using the correct mnemonic/seed 24 words and passphrase.
It seems as the Trezor had 0 funds, this may not have created any history or addresses.

eiger3970

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Thanks, yes I realised TailsOS welcome screen has the option to disable networks.

So testing restoring the TailsOS Electrum hot wallet (as networks were on at some stage) and the restore shows nothing?
I would assume transactions would be shown with the online hot wallet? I also don't see transactions in the online standard watching only wallet?

Sending from the offline wallet still prompts error: There are no funds. I am BTC is on the BTC network and the offline wallet is only to use the private key to sign the standard watching only wallet's transaction, however I am still trying to sort out restoring the wallets first.

The Lightning channels enabled says I need to create a new Electrum seed? Guess I'll continue using Breez for daily LN spending.

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 21, 2024, 08:10:17 PM

Also, is there a way TailOS can automatically not connect to the Internet or have the offline Electrum app in a VM/Container/Qube to keep it offline?

Enable "Offline Mode" in the start menu "Additional Settings" in every session.
However, unplugging to the network is still the recommended solution since some motherboards' UEFI/BIOS can still connect to the internet without the OS.

Quote from: eiger3970 on September 21, 2024, 08:10:17 PM

Still figuring out how to send from the offline wallet with 1 USB, 1 offline computer -snip-, 1 online computer and 1 online iPhone (no Electrum nor Sparrow app).

To better understand what I've written about it:
Research "PSBT" (Partially Signed Bitcoin Transaction) and you'll be able to tell if a non-Electrum client can be used together with Electrum.
A workaround is to use something like Bitcoin Core's converttopsbt RPC command to convert a serialized transaction hex to psbt.

Take note that some tutorials online are outdated and the export/import transaction method will only work in older versions of Electrum.
In your research, make sure that Electrum's version is at least v4.0.1 or above.

eiger3970

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I figured out how to receive via the Electrum online watch-only wallet, by taking a photograph of the offline QR master public key (MPK) to create the watch-only wallet, which then has the same receive address as the offline wallet.
Still figuring out how to send from the offline wallet with 1 USB, 1 offline computer (the same online computer, but booted with TailsOS live USB and offline with a command like sudo ip link eth0 down or whatever (too much effort to physically disconnect the RJ45 Ethernet plug)), 1 online computer and 1 online iPhone (no Electrum nor Sparrow app).

Also, is there a way TailOS can automatically not connect to the Internet or have the offline Electrum app in a VM/Container/Qube to keep it offline?

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 20, 2024, 08:02:59 PM

My iPhone hot wallet preference is Breez, as it's self custodial and has the lowest LN fees to setup a channel. I don't know anything about the team though, which I like to know whether or not they're decent people.
If QR code doesn't work, I'll research how to manually do it.

You can't Air-Gap a lightning client if you're up to its lightning features.
You can't create a watching-only wallet in Breez using Electrum's master public key either.
You can only create a new wallet or restore from online backup from Google drive or your preferred server.

Quote from: eiger3970 on September 20, 2024, 08:02:59 PM

I think I just learned recovering mnemonic/seed phrases need atleast 1 transaction, as my test cold wallet recovery tests fails with Electrum and Sparrow.

That isn't actually necessary "technically" since all the client has to do is to derive the private keys from the seed to restore the wallet.
It requires some CPU processes, not internet (that's for syncing to check for transactions).
That '1 txn requirement' is just a method of some clients to auto-detect which of the standard derivation path and script type the owner of the seed phrase has used.

In your test in Electrum, you must have used "Detect Existing Account" for it to require a transaction since that button searches from multiple derivations paths to see which ones are already used.
Using the script type selection after pasting your BIP39 seed should be sufficient to restore the wallet if the correct option is selected.

eiger3970

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My iPhone hot wallet preference is Breez, as it's self custodial and has the lowest LN fees to setup a channel. I don't know anything about the team though, which I like to know whether or not they're decent people.
If QR code doesn't work, I'll research how to manually do it.

I think I just learned recovering mnemonic/seed phrases need atleast 1 transaction, as my test cold wallet recovery tests fails with Electrum and Sparrow.

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 17, 2024, 06:17:18 PM

Seems like 1 offline computer and 1 online phone would work just as 1 offline computer and 1 online computer.
1 offline computer and 1 online phone is better suited whilst travelling.
Therefore, I'm wondering with the send transaction, how as currently my offline computer TailsOS USB Electrum says no funds, but I have successfully received funds to the offline wallet.

Simple explanation is: Electrum doesn't store bitcoins.
Instead, your offline Electrum contains your "private keys" and your online Electrum contains your "public keys".

Electrum simply "shows" transactions associated with your public keys, those are requested from a random/selected server which is a Bitcoin full node.
With those info alone, Electrum can create unsigned transactions that spends those outputs. (it can even be done manually)
Anyone can do that if they have your addresses, public keys or xpub but no one can sign to finalize the transaction without the correct private keys which is in your offline computer.

Quote from: eiger3970 on September 17, 2024, 06:17:18 PM

I'm trying to adapt this video process, but I guess the online phone which doesn't take USB sticks, would either use a QR scanner or I would have to manually type some details into the phone's online hot wallet (it's an iPhone, so no Electrum app).

The iPhone wallet app where you will create a watch-only wallet should support Electrum's PSBT transaction format and the QR code's base43 contents.
Otherwise, it wont be compatible. Telling the name of the app should be a good pointer to tell if it's compatible with Electrum.

eiger3970

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Seems like 1 offline computer and 1 online phone would work just as 1 offline computer and 1 online computer.
1 offline computer and 1 online phone is better suited whilst travelling.
Therefore, I'm wondering with the send transaction, how as currently my offline computer TailsOS USB Electrum says no funds, but I have successfully received funds to the offline wallet.
The offline wallet doesn't update the balance, however the online phone mempool shows the balance update.
I'm trying to adapt this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQumISxkJsQ process, but I guess the online phone which doesn't take USB sticks, would either use a QR scanner or I would have to manually type some details into the phone's online hot wallet (it's an iPhone, so no Electrum app).

Pmalek

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 17, 2024, 01:39:27 AM

I'm using this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQumISxkJsQ to send funds, however I'm wondering if I can avoid using 2 computers and perhaps 1 computer, 1 usb and 1 phone (Electrum works on Android, but I have an iPhone) with the hot wallet for fund top ups and daily spending. Without a phone having a USB port, I imagine I would have to manually type in a key or perhaps a QR code?

You need two computers for Electrum to work properly in a cold storage environment. One for signing transactions and holding your keys offline, the other for creating and broadcasting transactions. There is no way to get around that and still have the security that an airgapped computer provides. Other combinations can work, but we are no longer talking about having your signing keys in cold storage in that case.

Cricktor

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Learning from my own past mistakes that caused me some unexpected heart bumping but fortunately so far no losses of funds, to avoid them I follow stricter rules to always check and verify a successful recovery if I setup some new wallet or change something in my way of setting them up.

There are a few variables for BIP39 compatible wallets that need to be correct to recover a particular wallet successfully:

you need the correct sequence of mnemonic recovery words
you need the correct additional mnemonic passphrase, if it was used
you need the correct derivation path used (pay attention also to the account index, if multiple accounts were in use)
if the script-type isn't determined from standard derivation paths, keep an eye on that too
some wallet software might have specific quirks which need to be addressed (I've no example right now from the top of my head)
in rare cases the "gap limit" issue of scanning relevant addresses of light wallets (SPV wallets) may appear and shows a falsely empty wallet, at least know what this is and how to remedy it

Keep in mind that a SPV wallet that relies on an Electrum server or as Trezor calls it block book (?) also is dependant that such servers give sufficient responses regarding the wallet's addresses history. This can also fail but should be indicated somehow.

From my own experience with wallet recovery of BIP39 wallets, I can't say there're problems if everything is working and the recovery details are all sufficiently complete.

eiger3970

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I'm using the correct mnemonic/seed 24 words and passphrase.
It seems as the Trezor had 0 funds, this may not have created any history or addresses.
I'm doing this as a test for recovery, as it's said BIP39 can be recovered on other brands and software.

Basically, I'm moving on from hardware wallets to USB cold wallets with TailsOS and Electrum. As I'm travelling soon, I need quick access to a new cold wallet if robbed, so buying a USB anywhere cuts out the 2-6 week wait for a hardware wallet, not to mention the price of $5 to $150.
Recoveries and receiving funds work, however just finalising sending funds, which isn't clear.
I'm using this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQumISxkJsQ to send funds, however I'm wondering if I can avoid using 2 computers and perhaps 1 computer, 1 usb and 1 phone (Electrum works on Android, but I have an iPhone) with the hot wallet for fund top ups and daily spending. Without a phone having a USB port, I imagine I would have to manually type in a key or perhaps a QR code?

Cricktor

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 15, 2024, 07:59:35 AM

~~~

The correctness of the 24 mnemonic recovery words is verified by the embedded checksum which is part of the last recovery word. Electrum will show you that your entered recovery words pass the BiP39 checksum test.

If you have an additional mnemonic passphrase then you have to be very careful to type it correctly, because there's no right or wrong. Any unique mnemonic passphrase will yield an unique wallet with different addresses. The smallest error gives you an empty wallet!

It's hard to say what you're doing wrong during recovery.
Can we rule out issues with the Electrum server connection?
Can we rule out a wrong derivation path?
Potential issues with gap limit?

FatFork

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 15, 2024, 07:59:35 AM

So I've been restoring the old Trezor 24 word mnemonic/seed phrase multiple times with its passphrase.
A new Electrum BIP39 wallet is created with nothing, probably as there's no funds or transactions on the old Trezor cold wallet.

After you have restored your wallet in Electrum, open the addresses tab and compare the receiving addresses with the addresses or transactions in Trezor Suite. They should match. If not, then you used the wrong seed phrase, the wrong passphrase, the wrong derivation path, or made a mistake elsewhere in the process.

I suggest that you avoid using the wallet to receive funds until you are absolutely certain that it is the same wallet. Moreover, I still don’t understand why you would use such a wallet, as it defeats the purpose of using a hardware wallet. Backup seed phrases from hardware wallets are not intended for import into hot wallets. They are meant as a safety backup in case of device loss, failure, or similar circumstances.

eiger3970

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So I've been restoring the old Trezor 24 word mnemonic/seed phrase multiple times with its passphrase.
A new Electrum BIP39 wallet is created with nothing, probably as there's no funds or transactions on the old Trezor cold wallet.

However now I've put some funds on the Electrum hot wallet.
However each time I run an Electrum restore, a new wallet opens, without the funds or transactions.
This leads me to wonder if having funds on an Electrum wallet will be restored properly?
What am I doing wrong?

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on September 11, 2024, 09:17:20 PM

Beginners: paper cold wallet
Intermediate: USB stick with TailsOS and Electrum, Sparrow or Coinomi
Expert: commercial cold wallet.

The last two are actually reversed.

Using a commercial hardware wallet is at intermediate level for its ease of use,
and it may not even be "Air-Gap" depending on the hardware device's source code availability.

On the other hand, USB stick with Tails require expertise to properly utilize a wallet's cold-storage feature
but the end result is as safe (if not better) as the most reputable hardware wallet out there.

eiger3970

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I can't afford to buy anymore expensive commercial cold wallets.
TailsOS with Electrum or Sparrow on a USB stick will be the cold wallet until funds are in the 7-10 figure range.

My understanding was BIP39 could transfer seeds. This is a big warning to learners to find a solution that encompasses mistakes, learning, transferring and security.
A USB stick is affordable and flexible for trial and error. After practice, perhaps a commercial and much more secure solution.

Beginners: paper cold wallet
Intermediate: USB stick with TailsOS and Electrum, Sparrow or Coinomi
Expert: commercial cold wallet.

Cricktor

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 04, 2024, 03:31:55 PM

~~~

I recommend to document at least the following details for any new HD wallet:

Date, time and software used (BIP39, Electrum or Aezeed wallet?)
Purpose of the wallet
Derivation path, script type(s) and if other than default account used, purpose of account(s)
Subtle hint if additional mnemonic passphrase is used which needs to be documented elsewhere
Wallet still in use (never throw away recovery details of used wallets)?
Numbered mnemonic recovery words
Recovery verified (yes/no)

For abandoned or not used anymore wallets, you can simply lower the storage security, but always keep all required recovery details. You never know if and when you'll need them.

You should always verify that you can successfully recover a wallet, no matter what.

Pmalek

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Quote from: eiger3970 on August 25, 2024, 10:28:49 PM

... type in seed, but 5th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, 7th word of 4 letters offers 3 words, 18th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, whereas Trezor would just select the single word from 4 letters...

As you type the seed words character by character into the software, Electrum will display the possible words based on the letters you entered. Don't worry about how many combinations Electrum shows you. Worry about selecting the correct word. Your seed is surely written down somewhere. So, go through it word by word and enter it the way you wrote it down. If you have the correct backup, correct derivation path, and a passphrase (in case you generated one), there should be no issues with recovery.

You never told us why you are entering your hardware wallet seed into Electrum in the first place. Did your Trezor break and stop working? You have removed a level of security from your seed by doing what you did.

dkbit98

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I think people should start adding additional information to seed words to avoid issues of not showing coins when seed words are restored in different wallet.
Derivation path is one of those things, especially if non-standard is used, but I would also add note if words are with BIP39, Electrum-native, SLIP39 or some other format.
This is even more important if you are thinking about inheritance and leaving seed words for your kids to recover.

Husna QA

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Quote from: nc50lc on August 27, 2024, 09:44:30 PM

Quote from: Husna QA on August 27, 2024, 09:19:16 AM

-snip- and vice versa; the BIP39 seed phrase generated from the Electrum wallet can be restored to Trezor T.

Electrum doesn't generate BIP39 seed phrase, it's just using the same word list by default, although it will work with any word list.
Electrum seed may look the same but if tested to BIP39 wallets, it wont pass the checksum test since it doesn't have a checksum but a reserved number.

Old Electrum seed isn't BIP39 standard compliant either.

Thanks for the correction.
I forgot that Electrum doesn't generate BIP39 seed phrases but uses its seed type even if you generate it using the console (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.57048278). However, Electrum can still import BIP39 seed phrases.

Quote from: Husna QA on April 17, 2024, 09:34:48 PM

-snip-
However, Electrum does not generate BIP39 seed phrases. Here are some of the reasons mentioned at: https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/seedphrase.html#motivation

Quote from: https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/seedphrase.html#motivation

Early versions of Electrum (before 2.0) used a bidirectional encoding between seed phrase and entropy. This type of encoding requires a fixed wordlist. This means that future versions of Electrum must ship with the exact same wordlist, in order to be able to read old seed phrases.

BIP39 was introduced two years after Electrum. BIP39 seeds include a checksum, in order to help users figure out typing errors. However, BIP39 suffers the same shortcomings as early Electrum seed phrases:

• A fixed wordlist is still required. Following our recommendation, BIP39 authors decided to derive keys and addresses in a way that does not depend on the wordlist. However, BIP39 still requires the wordlist in order to compute its checksum, which is plainly inconsistent, and defeats the purpose of our recommendation. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that BIP39 proposes to create one wordlist per language. This threatens the portability of BIP39 seed phrases.

• BIP39 seed phrases do not include a version number. This means that software should always know how to generate keys and addresses. BIP43 suggests that wallet software will try various existing derivation schemes within the BIP32 framework. This is extremely inefficient and rests on the assumption that future wallets will support all previously accepted derivation methods. If, in the future, a wallet developer decides not to implement a particular derivation method because it is deprecated, then the software will not be able to detect that the corresponding seed phrases are not supported, and it will return an empty wallet instead. This threatens users funds.

For these reasons, Electrum does not generate BIP39 seeds. Starting with version 2.0, Electrum uses the following Seed Version System, which addresses these issues.

Electrum 2.0 derives keys and addresses from a hash of the UTF8 normalized seed phrase with no dependency on a fixed wordlist. This means that the wordlist can differ between wallets while the seed remains portable, and that future wallet implementations will not need today’s wordlists in order to be able to decode the seeds created today. This reduces the cost of forward compatibility.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Husna QA on August 27, 2024, 09:19:16 AM

-snip- and vice versa; the BIP39 seed phrase generated from the Electrum wallet can be restored to Trezor T.

Electrum doesn't generate BIP39 seed phrase, it's just using the same word list by default, although it will work with any word list.
Electrum seed may look the same but if tested to BIP39 wallets, it wont pass the checksum test since it doesn't have a checksum but a reserved number.

Old Electrum seed isn't BIP39 standard compliant either.

Husna QA

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 27, 2024, 08:29:05 AM

Quote from: Husna QA on August 25, 2024, 11:20:24 PM

You cannot restore seed phrases on Trezor using Electrum. You can only restore the seed phrase on Trezor via Trezor Suite.

This is not true.
You can restore seed phrase on any wallet that supports BIP39, including Electrum, but it's not recommended to restore seed phrase from cold to hot wallets.
Only problem in this case can be different derivation paths for some wallets that are not standard, or maybe accounts had additional passphrases.

Yes, I know that the Seed phrase generated by Trezor can be used in Electrum (by selecting the BIP39 option when importing it) ~~and vice versa; the BIP39 seed phrase generated from the Electrum wallet can be restored to Trezor T~~.

Quote from: Husna QA on October 16, 2023, 12:51:02 AM

Quote from: https://blog.trezor.io/learn-about-trezor-recovery-seed-offline-backup-fe235873c69f

The recovery seed is a crucial element for the security of your Trezor hardware wallet. If your device is lost, damaged or stolen, you can use your recovery seed to restore access to your entire wallet, passwords and other data associated with it. The process is simple; you only have to enter the words of your seed into your new Trezor device. (You may also use any other wallets or applications that use the same standard as the Trezor.)

It seems I misunderstood the context of the OP's question.

However, what I mean above is you cannot set up Trezor from scratch using Electrum, but you have to use Trezor Suite to use it with a new seed phrase or restore an existing seed phrase.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Husna QA on August 25, 2024, 11:20:24 PM

You cannot restore seed phrases on Trezor using Electrum. You can only restore the seed phrase on Trezor via Trezor Suite.

This is not true.
You can restore seed phrase on any wallet that supports BIP39, including Electrum, but it's not recommended to restore seed phrase from cold to hot wallets.
Only problem in this case can be different derivation paths for some wallets that are not standard, or maybe accounts had additional passphrases.

Quote from: eiger3970 on August 25, 2024, 10:28:49 PM

...

Do you still own Trezor device and did you try restoring seed phrase back on Trezor?
Trezor also have test option for this in Trezor Suite.

nc50lc

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First of all, it's not recommended to restore a hardware wallet's seed phrase to an online client because it defeats the purpose of using a hardware wallet where the keys are supposed to be kept offline.
You had your reason, probably.

Anyways;

Quote from: eiger3970 on August 25, 2024, 10:28:49 PM

-snip- Seed type: BIP39 seed -> OK -> type in seed, but 5th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, 7th word of 4 letters offers 3 words, 18th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, whereas Trezor would just select the single word from 4 letters?

Electrum just shows you the possible valid word that can be completed with those first four letters, it's not something that can cause incompatibility.

Quote from: eiger3970 on August 25, 2024, 10:28:49 PM

-snip- Detect Existing Accounts -> BIP39 Recovery: No existing accounts found.

Since you already done that, I assume that you've actually typed your Trezor backup phrase to an online machine.
If you ever successfully restored your wallet, immediately send all of its funds to a new seed (wallet) created by your Trezor.

Husna QA

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Quote from: eiger3970 on August 25, 2024, 10:28:49 PM

Electrum-4.5.5-x86_64.AppImage -> Electrum wallet: Create New Wallet -> Wallet: wallet_1 -> Next -> Create new wallet: What kind of wallet do you want to create? Standard wallet -> Next -> Keystore: Do you want to create a new seed, or to restore a wallet using an existing seed? I already have a seed -> Next -> Enter Seed -> Please enter your seed phrase in order to restore your wallet. -> Options -> Seed type: BIP39 seed -> OK -> type in seed, but 5th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, 7th word of 4 letters offers 3 words, 18th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, whereas Trezor would just select the single word from 4 letters? -> Next -> Script type and Derivation path -> Detect Existing Accounts -> BIP39 Recovery: No existing accounts found. -> Cancel -> Choose the type of addresses in your wallet. Native segwit (p2wpkh) -> You can override the suggested derivation path. If you are not sure what this is, leave this field unchanged. m/84h/0h/0h -> Next -> Wallet Password: Choose a password to encrypt your wallet keys. Leave this field empty if you want to disable encryption. -> Password: blank -> Confirm Password: blank -> Finish -> Balance: 0. mBTC.

You cannot restore seed phrases on Trezor using Electrum. You can only restore the seed phrase on Trezor via Trezor Suite.
Go to Settings Menu - Device - Danger Area - Factory reset

If previously you experienced failure during the restore process and entered the boot loader mode as I experienced below:

Quote from: Husna QA on November 24, 2022, 06:00:20 AM

Click Trezor Account in Trezor Suite, then follow the instructions for the setup process.

Quote from: Husna QA on November 24, 2022, 06:00:20 AM

eiger3970

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Electrum-4.5.5-x86_64.AppImage -> Electrum wallet: Create New Wallet -> Wallet: wallet_1 -> Next -> Create new wallet: What kind of wallet do you want to create? Standard wallet -> Next -> Keystore: Do you want to create a new seed, or to restore a wallet using an existing seed? I already have a seed -> Next -> Enter Seed -> Please enter your seed phrase in order to restore your wallet. -> Options -> Seed type: BIP39 seed -> OK -> type in seed, but 5th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, 7th word of 4 letters offers 3 words, 18th word of 4 letters offers 2 words, whereas Trezor would just select the single word from 4 letters? -> Next -> Script type and Derivation path -> Detect Existing Accounts -> BIP39 Recovery: No existing accounts found. -> Cancel -> Choose the type of addresses in your wallet. Native segwit (p2wpkh) -> You can override the suggested derivation path. If you are not sure what this is, leave this field unchanged. m/84h/0h/0h -> Next -> Wallet Password: Choose a password to encrypt your wallet keys. Leave this field empty if you want to disable encryption. -> Password: blank -> Confirm Password: blank -> Finish -> Balance: 0. mBTC.

Topic: Restoring Trezor on Electrum with correct seed phrase fails? (Read 369 times)