Topic: Revealing how the public is scammed through Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies (Read 432 times)

I agree. Bitcoin is a tool. But not a tool to "transform the planet" - holding a number or recording past and current number-holders cannot transform anything. Bitcoin is simply a tool for extracting useful items and fiat money from people. Just as Charles Ponzi used a business with postal reply coupons as an extraction tool. People won't just give you stuff. You always need some tool to trick them.

There's no point in engaging with OP in any of the threads he's created, which all share the same underlying theme of "bitcoin is bad."

We get it OP. You don't like Bitcoin. But you ignore all valid criticism of your claims in favor of continuing to harp on the same talking points you spelled out in the first post. Its an intellectually dishonest approach to debate and not far removed from trolling.

Scam happens between people, bitcoin, fiat or any asset are just tools, they cannot scam people themselves, they are used by people to scam each other. It's funny how many people get scammed due to ignorance and stupidity but try to blame it on bitcoin or any other tool.

Scammers exist in every corner and every field, including the stock market or banking, not just the cryptocurrency market. And we cannot just because of a few scammers declare that the cryptocurrency community is a scam or that everyone working in banks is a scammer.
Bitcoin is legal, recognized and we already have a bitcoin ETFs, those who still stubbornly call bitcoin a scam are only expressing jealousy and envy, nothing more and nothing less.

Bitcoin is a tool; is neither good nor harmful. Depending on who is swinging it, it can break a window or build a house, much as a hammer can. Now, a serious issue exists since many people out there have false information regarding Bitcoin. It causes people to lose money, make poor decisions, and pass on the possible advantages. But calling every member of the Bitcoin ecosystem frauds is oversimplified. Actually, there are many decent people in this field who see the ability of this technology to transform the planet. They seek to create a better financial system for everyone, not only to get rich fast. a system more transparent, fair, and easily available.

"No one is scammed because of Bitcoin"? What that nonsense even means? People are scammed because of disinformation. This is what tricks them to invest in Bitcoin. When you say that Bitcoin is like fiat currency this is disinformation. When you say that Bitcoin is better than fiat currencies this is disinformation. When you say that Bitcoin is like stocks or collectibles this is disinformation. When you say that Bitcoin is digital gold this is disinformation. Bitcoin, the same as all crypto, is a system that shows numbers to investors. This is so obvious that it's impossible to deny. And no one finds watching numbers "useful". Useful are goods and services. Useful is a banking system because it returns goods and services to number holders, as explained in the OP. That's why all you crypto holders want fiat money. You want to dump numbers in crypto systems and get numbers in the banking systems. The whole Bitcoin or crypto community is basically scammers that want to extract as much bank-issued money as possible from people by spreading lies and disinformation.

You are right that it is unfair to say cryptocurrencies are only scheme. Bitcoin and similar currencies can be used to buy many things even if not everything which shows they have real value. While not everyone accepts them yet they can still be used for real transactions making them different from speculative investments. Additionally cryptocurrencies offer level of freedom and security that traditional currencies do not give allowing for direct transactions without middlemen or risk of funds being seized. This makes them unique and promising asset. Their usefulness and growth potential make them more than just temporary fad.

You're not revealing anything out here. The fact of the matter is that you're basically talking about pump and dump schemes/ponzi schemes. And in the case of tying bitcoin in all of this shit let me tell you that bitcoin's already revealed to not be related to any of this shit at all, much to the dismay of all you haters.

Ponzi schemes benefit those that came in early the most, and while that is the case for bitcoin for the most part, it's not to say that those at the bottom of the proverbial pyramid's not getting anything out of this ordeal, matter of fact since bitcoin's supply is finite there will come a time where everyone will have just as much valuable bitcoin for themselves as those in the upper echelons of the HODLers. So it's not like the whales are using the bottomlines as exit liquidity.

Bitcoin as it stands today isn't even a full-fledged cryptocurrency anymore. It's more like a store-of-value using the technology of cryptocurrencies to make things easier for all its holders. By a longshot this is way better than holding Gold and Silver ETFs, cause at the very least you know that you really own your bitcoins, whereas with ETFs you're basically just given a contract that says the issuer owes you this much gold/silver or whatever valuable asset they put out.

Nope, no one is scammed because of Bitcoin. Anyone who finds Bitcoin useful purchase it and mostly it's purchased by holders. Surely, if someone comes early gets things cheaper when those are not very limited in number and same thing happen with the ones who buy Bitcoin.

Those who were early investors and long term holders can sell their Bitcoin for profit in similar way real estate guys bought land cheaper a few years ago and hold that land for long term and now they sell it for profit.

That's cheap propaganda. All crypto is just systems that show numbers on the screen. Nothing less nothing more. There's no value in these systems because, unlike banks, they don't return useful items to number holders. In a nutshell, crypo systems are means to execute investment scams.

I don't even think OP really does understand the argument he's putting out there. First of, his thread is too long and tacky as the thread does not address any challenges or solve any problem. The OP was just talking about numbers as if the value of Bitcoin came out of the thin air. I would have loved to argue this more but this is one of the threads similar to the one that claim Bitcoin was founded by bankers aimed at deviating the attention of people from the centralized system of banking. It doesn't really make a common sense to me.

The great thing about Bitcoin - and why its always been the #1 crypto by far - is that you actually can use it as a currency. People do it every day, thousands of times a day. Unlike actual pump n dump cryptos (which are admittedly the majority), Bitcoin has an intrinsic value through its ability to act as an uncensorable form of money. Sure, there will always be people out there using their influence to encourage others to buy it so they can sell it at a higher price than which they bought it, but its the innate utility that makes it the leader of the pack, and a viable commodity.

I can't believe I read through the Op thread and arrive at nothing  I don't fancy lengthy posts nowadays but the topic tempted me to read everything line by line.

First of all, I will direct you to read this Banks, Airlines and hospital are all down today by NotATether and perhaps you will change your view about cryptocurrency and Bitcoin per se.

It's good to read everything you come across online, have any sort of thought or believe whatever you want to but it is a dishonest act to mislead others with it.

Here I am not criticizing Bitcoin. I have other threads where I do that. Here I am describing how the public is scammed via Bitcoin.

Holding crypto is not a scam. But holding it, spreading disinformation about it and then selling it is a scam. Especially if you are an influential person.

Describing cryptos as just a Greater Fool Theory scheme is not relevant IMO. Nowadays, you can buy many things with cryptos, even if you still can't buy all goods and services available except maybe in very few countries such as San Salvador. So unlike what you're saying Bitcoin can already be used as currency to pay tangible things. But unlike fiat currencies nobody can prevent you to pay what you want to who you want with it, and nobody not knowing your private keys will be able to seize your funds.

I agree with TSC, this thread should be locked as it doesn't contian anything valuable or useful but has been created to pollute the forum.

The OP just wants to make such threads and reply in his own thread as many times as possible to show how good he can explain things but in actual we know what's the truth.

That's why I believe all of us should stop wasting our time on threads that hold no good value for us. Bitcoin critics often come with such useless threads and the best we can do it to avoid such threads.

A lot may have this kind of intention but many users of crypto uses it for their transactions and they prefer holding crypto so that they can hold their own money and not give control to any intermediary.

Promoting crypto specifically bitcoin is not a scam. A scam is promising false ideas for the sake of gaining profit but bitcoin is not just about gaining profit.

I have no problem with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a system that shows numbers to investors. What I do is describe how people are scammed via disinformation spread by existing Bitcoin investors.

OP, the major problem you and every other critics of Bitcoin have with Bitcoin is that it is highly decentralized, no one controls it. Oh yea! No one is gonna request for my house, cars or anything of value as a collateral in exchange for some good figures. Everyone controls it and the system regulates it, sounds like magic huh?

There wouldn't be any need to convert Bitcoin first to FIAT for making payments if everyone agrees to accept Bitcoin as a medium of payment, this was what Bitcoin was originally meant for. Good news, some organisations have already adopted Bitcoin.

While FIAT keeps battling with inflation, Bitcoin is appreciating in value and the more the value appreciates, a lot of people are gradually adopting it. In few years to come, we would know who the real scammers are between the government/traditional banks and Bitcoin.

Bingo! This is exactly how you crypto scammers operate. You say Bitcoin is like having stocks. That's disinformation. Stocks are not systems that just show you numbers on the screen. Stocks are shares in businesses. Crypto and fiat are not. Then you say crypo is like fiat. And although both crypto and fiat are systems that show numbers when you join them, the fiat systems have a mechanism to return useful items to people, as explained in the OP. Crypto systems lack such a mechanism. That's why you crypto holders want to dump crypto and get fiat. And you do that by spreading disinformation, by tricking people to get their fiat money. Hence, you're scammers.

IPOs, startups, just business, and other ways of raising money for the sake of making a profit (getting as much money as possible) all fall under your definition of fraud.

How are cryptocurrencies fundamentally different from the stock market, shares, and other traditional financial instruments, if we consider the method of attracting money? Nothing.

Cryptocurrencies are no more fraudulent than all of the above.

Well, well, well...

Are you saying that all holders are scammers? You seem to be confusing the concept of fraud. I'll try to explain it to you clearly.

Fraud, when some people take away (the victim voluntarily gives) value from others under various pretexts. In the case of a bitcoin hold, the holder doesn't receive any value from anyone, but, on the contrary, loses it, that is, the value in the form of bitcoin purchased with money is stored in the same place (crypto wallet) for a long time. From this perspective, the holder (in some sense) should be called a victim rather than a fraudster.

Saying something doesn't make it so. You need to show where in the opening post are logical fallacies, trolling, misinformation, etc. You need to prove your claims.

In short, they want to dump numbers shown to them by the Bitcoin system on investors because the system cannot return useful items to them. Exactly my point. They want cars, real estate, haircuts, gambling or betting tickets, whatever useful, because the Bitcoin system, unlike banks, has no mechanism for returning them something useful. It's basically a pyramid scheme into which old investors lure new investors by spreading disinformation.

Have you ever heard of companies that accept bitcoin payments? Have you ever heard of gift cards? How about bitcoin payment processors? Even if I really want to go through fiat money, I don't have to deal with a bank to do it. I can go to a physical exchange where they give me cash for my bitcoin, or send it to an ATM.


What about people who don't invest any fiat, but their time and skills? I did some of that back in the day.
Your understanding of bitcoin is very limited, which is why you pass your verdict so fast. You seem to give it a deep thought, but due to your very basic knowledge you're clearly subjective.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a currency and a payment system. US Dollars are a currency. If I hand somebody a hundred dollar bill in exchange for a fancy yoyo, and they don't give me the yoyo--the the yoyo is defective--then my recourse is... the same as if I used a digital currency.

Conversely, there are already payment systems that guarantee the delivery and/or efficacy of goods or services, that... except Bitcoin as payment.

The currency in use is a technical detail that doesn't matter.

(And yes, I agree with others we may well be arguing with ChatGPT here, but I thought this was a good thing to clarify nevertheless).

That is not a complete definition of scam, because if they track you alone does not makes them attack you until you have left yourself being vulnerable, deceived or out of your own greediness for the love of money fall into their set trap, so here, the entry point for scam to occur is what we will determine, if we are not loosed by the way of leaving any sensitive information open to others or greedy enough to accept vain offers for free money online.


I disagrees, cryptocurrency is not scam, in every sectors of life you will discover scam, so tell me why that of cryptocurrency be an exception, are you hearing about scam for the first time in fiat currencies.

Hey there, just wanted to point out that you've been spreading FUD about crypto in multiple threads now. It's pretty clear at this point that you're just trolling and trying to stir up controversy.

Your arguments are full of misinformation and logical fallacies, and they're not contributing anything meaningful to the conversation. In fact, all you're doing is spreading fear and confusion among people who may not be as familiar with the technology as you are.

It's one thing to have a differing opinion or to raise valid concerns, but it's another thing entirely to make baseless accusations and spread false information. But if you're just here to troll and stir up trouble, then I'd prefer if you took your negativity elsewhere.

Is this a discussion of anything? 

Yet another thread where I could swear the OP was written by an AI program, but after checking JamesNZ's post history this is consistent with the rest of his jargo-babbling.  What I see is a bunch of buzzwords and nonsense.  Please just lock this thread and don't pollute bitcointalk any more than it already has been.

Is this another discussion about intrinsic value?

Anyway, first off, Bitcoin isn't some kind of stone or shell or leaf that derives its value by merely assuming that it has value. Bitcoin didn't gain value simply because two or three or a group of nerds agreed that it has value. Bitcoin's value came from its very features. If you think that Bitcoin is just a mere number, then you don't understand Bitcoin at all.

Bitcoin isn't just number out of thin air. If there's a thing like that, it's fiat. Do you think fiat money is created because something like labor or goods are invested? No. Banks and governments can create money out of nothing at all. The debts that banks have been issuing are supported by nothing. If you believe otherwise, then you don't understand fiat money at all.

I've shortened it to address specific claims. First, while a lot of crypto investors want to eventually sell their coins for fiat, that's not the sole goal. Some are waiting to pay directly in Bitcoin for a house, a car, or something else they can be interested. Then there are also people who spend cryptos, including Bitcoin, directly through gambling and sports betting. There are places that accept Bitcoin, ways to spend it directly. But most of the time you need to convert it into local fiat to spend. Note that the same is true for fiat like the USD: almost everywhere in the world, you need to exchange it for local fiat to actually buy goods and services.
I don't believe that debt is so essential to what can function as money. As long as there's high liquidity and wide trust in a certain purchasing value, anything can act as a currency.

Here we go again. Collectibles,..... gold, art, or whatever you Bitcoin advocates usually compare to Bitcoin, are not numbers shown to you by a system. On the other hand, bitcoins, crypto in general or fiat currencies are numbers shown by a system. The topic here is that the systems that issue fiat currencies have a mechanism to return useful items to number holders while the systems that issue crypto do not have it. That's why all you crypto holders want to dump crypto on investors and get as much fiat as possible. You do that by spreading disinformation that crypto is better than fiat. Basically you try to trick people to get their money.

Cryptosystems as you call it are not decentralized database
Bitcoin is
Don't associate Bitcoin with alts.
And about your reasoning there are quite some flaw
Bitcoin isn't just an investment, it has is inherent utility
Even collectibles have values not to mention an asset with its use.
The bank system won't function if more people don't join in too
Can a bank survive with one customer?
Who said they don't get anything back
They got Bitcoin and that's what's called exchange
Just like you exchange your service for 'divine' papers.
Well people like you can't be convinced nor individuals like I
I respect your view none the less even if I find it biased against Bitcoin.

Sigh guess I'm a Scammer.

Scamming means tricking people to get their money. People will not just give their money to others. If you approach a random person on the street and ask them $100,000 they would say you're crazy. That's why a bait is needed. Something to trick people. Charles Ponzi used postal coupons for that purpose. Bernie Madoff used a split-strike conversion strategy. And today's scammers use cryptography as bait.
 
How does that bait work? Scammers first come up with a cryptographic system that shows numbers on the screen. They then claim that these numbers are money. Because nowadays, money, that is fiat money, is just numbers - either on bank accounts or banknotes. So, because their systems show numbers just like banking systems, scammers claim to have invented money. Finally, they claim that their money is better than fiat money because numbers are cryptographically protected and stored in decentralized databases, while the number holders are anonymous. Banks, on the other hand, store their numbers on paper(on banknotes) or in centralized databases, with the number holders being identified by real names.

Once the bait of crypto money is set, and the scammers have initially 'mined' large amounts with negligible electricity consumption, they start spreading propaganda about the revolutionary money of the future. And so people start investing fiat money or useful items - goods, services, etc. However, what the scammers won't tell, is that their systems don't return useful items. And this is the crux of the scams. Banks, unlike cryptosystems, have a mechanism for returning useful items to those who hold numbers. And useful items are essentially what the scammers want. They want goods, services, labor, real estate, the ability to pay taxes, etc. Because no one can benefit from watching numbers.

How do banks return useful items to number holders? By issuing numbers as debt. A new bank deposit, i.e. a number on a bank account, is created when a commercial bank issues a loan or a central bank subscribes to a government bond. Of course, when that number is paid out in banknotes, nothing essentially changes. It still represents debt but is written on paper instead of on the screen. Once the numbers are created that way, debtors trade them in the market for labor, goods, services and other useful items. However since they represent debt towards the banks, debtors are forced to sell useful items to those who hold these numbers.

Further, if debtors default on their loans and thus essentially fail to return useful items to number holders, the collaterals will be activated and the banks will sell debtors' property at auctions. Who will have access to these auctions? Well, the holders of bank-issued numbers. Since the banks issued these numbers as debt, they must accept them to liquidate the unpaid debt. Finally, because governments issue bonds denominated in bank-issued numbers, they must accept these numbers as payment for taxes. Otherwise, they cannot pay off their bonds. That is, therefore, how the banks return goods, services, labor, real estate, the ability to pay taxes, and other useful items to number holders.

Cryptosystems don't have such a return mechanism. After people join a cryptosystem by investing useful items or fiat money, and get numbers on the screen, the only way they can return their investments is if new investors enter the system. So, just like in the schemes organized by Charles Ponzi or Bernie Madoff. Regardless if they invested tons of electricity through 'mining', cars, houses, years of labor, millions of dollars, whatever, cryptosystems can't help them at all. Without new investors, they cannot get anything back.

That's why whenever someone creates a cryptocurrency what they actually created is bait. A bait to attract investors and get fiat money or useful items. By holding fiat money the scammer is in a system that ensures the return of useful items. While victims are left in cryptosystems where they depend on new investors. If new investors stop coming, the victims cannot return useful items.

And that is how the bait of cryptography is used in today's investment scams. That bait is so good that it tricked even some governments and institutional investors, which has never been seen before.