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Topic: Rich Americans Fleeing Tax Hikes May Turbocharge Shift to ETFs (Read 120 times)

sr. member
Activity: 1988
Merit: 453
This is the key to what happens in countries with such policies. People like elkaka22 who voted for Chavez in Venezuela, or Lenin in Russia, ended up going hungry and miserable at best.

The discourse between rich and poor and the hatred of the rich comes from an oversimplism that people with little understanding can understand but which does not work.

Confiscatory taxation of top earners will only do two things:

1) Those who are already rich will either leave the country or use all the tools at their disposal to avoid being confiscated.
2) (The most important) Nobody is going to get rich. Wealth creation will suffer, and there will be less and less wealth to redistribute.

If the entire world was under one government, then the socialist governments would sustain themselves for some time. But that is not the case and our planet is divided in to more than 200 countries and territories, each with a different form of tax structure. If the billionaires are taxes at 90% (as proposed by user el kaka22), then many of them would simply migrate to countries that have a more saner tax system. Unfortunately the middle class don't have the resources to migrate to another country, and they will be forced to put up with heavy taxes.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 2017
And when the millionaires were gone as well, they started robbing the ordinary citizen.

This is the key to what happens in countries with such policies. People like elkaka22 who voted for Chavez in Venezuela, or Lenin in Russia, ended up going hungry and miserable at best.

The discourse between rich and poor and the hatred of the rich comes from an oversimplism that people with little understanding can understand but which does not work.

Confiscatory taxation of top earners will only do two things:

1) Those who are already rich will either leave the country or use all the tools at their disposal to avoid being confiscated.
2) (The most important) Nobody is going to get rich. Wealth creation will suffer, and there will be less and less wealth to redistribute.

legendary
Activity: 3346
Merit: 1352
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
This is the EXACT reason why the tax for anyone who makes more than 1 billion should be 90%, and anyone who makes over 100 million should be 70% and anyone who makes over 1 million should be 50% and there should not be ANY way to get out of that, no loopholes, no panama, no cayman islands, if that person lives, breathes, works and has a house in USA just tax them no matter where they hide their money, if they try to trick the government with overseas stuff, punish them 2x fine on top of it. I hate people who love to protect the super rich people, unless you make over a million dollars a year this doesn't bother you step down, this is to HELP YOU and some idiots still defend wealthy people who try to not pay the tax they should be paying to help the world.

I am all for capping wealth at 1 billion for everyone and taking everything else at this point, that is how much I hate these horrible scums of the world (not rich people, only the rich people who avoid paying taxes).

Yeah... let's take away the wealth from all the rich people and then distribute it among the drug addicts and gangsters. Well.. actually some of the countries have already done that.. heard about North Korea and Venezuela? The problem these countries faced was that, the money they stole from the so called "rich" ran out in a couple of years. Once the billionaires were gone, they started stealing from the millionaires. And when the millionaires were gone as well, they started robbing the ordinary citizen. But I agree.. let's set up a socialist utopia by eliminating all the rich people. Long live Kim Jong Un!
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1115
★777Coin.com★ Fun BTC Casino!
This theoretical 1% tax savings only applies to moves the ETF makes, not moves an individual investor makes. If you're moving money in and out of a mutual fund or in and out of an ETF, the investor pays the same capital gains tax on their transaction. I don't see this being a driver of money out of mutual funds, because that would have immediate tax consequences. This might impact future inflows, but that would play out over decades, not immediately.
hero member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 753
ETFs are indeed tax efficient compared to traditional mutual funds.

However, I don't think that this 1% difference would necessarily make much of a difference in terms of demand for ETFs or even the premiums on ETF products. After all, ETFs are open vehicles that can always have new shares added if there is sufficient demand for them.

I still think that Bitcoin ETFs would be a dodgy structure, though. It takes away the intrinsic decentralised nature of physical BTCs, and makes investors more prone to runs on the fund in periods of market illiquidity.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 1165
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This is the EXACT reason why the tax for anyone who makes more than 1 billion should be 90%, and anyone who makes over 100 million should be 70% and anyone who makes over 1 million should be 50% and there should not be ANY way to get out of that, no loopholes, no panama, no cayman islands, if that person lives, breathes, works and has a house in USA just tax them no matter where they hide their money, if they try to trick the government with overseas stuff, punish them 2x fine on top of it. I hate people who love to protect the super rich people, unless you make over a million dollars a year this doesn't bother you step down, this is to HELP YOU and some idiots still defend wealthy people who try to not pay the tax they should be paying to help the world.

I am all for capping wealth at 1 billion for everyone and taking everything else at this point, that is how much I hate these horrible scums of the world (not rich people, only the rich people who avoid paying taxes).
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441
This news is so confusing. In my country (bullion) ETFs are taxed at a higher rate when compared to the mutual funds, because capital gains from gold or other bullion metals have a higher rate of tax compared to that from the equities. Is it the other way around in the United States?


I can't comment, sorry. Not an ETF guy. I've never traded ETF.

They're reporting it is the opposite in the USA. But there have been many inaccurate things published of late.
sr. member
Activity: 2366
Merit: 305
Duelbits - $100k Bonus/week
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Perhaps it would be good if the SEC gave crypto ETFs in america a green light?
I guess, regardless if there are tax hikes, we all know that rich people have great accountants on their payroll. That is enough to help them reduce taxes to almost 0%. And I think that is what has to be resolved.

Look at Jeff Bezos paying almost zero taxes on his company because their accounts are well written/recorded enough to avoid the taxes legally and the government couldn’t do it.

Well, taxation as well all know is built to have complex loopholes in a way that if you know how it works and knew the hack, your finance will then become unlimited.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1232
I think this would only be beneficial to people who earn $1M gains per year outside the business industry like artists and sportspeople.
Business people have a lot of options in the market and ETF is just one of those.  And I don’t think that all of the businesses would reach 1$M annually on their revenue.  They might consider scaling in so they can avoid tax burdens as Uncle Joe is becoming unfriendly with capitalists.

Business people would instead re-invest their assets and gains to properties/real estates, taxes are possibly less especially with better execution of the accountant, and so on.

IMO, ETF on the other hand is somehow risky to some.  Not all of the rich have time to trade and learn to trade, they just don’t give a damn.
Aside from that, possibly that it would also make their assets liquidated really bad.  Just my two cents though.
sr. member
Activity: 1988
Merit: 453
This news is so confusing. In my country (bullion) ETFs are taxed at a higher rate when compared to the mutual funds, because capital gains from gold or other bullion metals have a higher rate of tax compared to that from the equities. Is it the other way around in the United States? The only advantage with these ETFs may be that you don't need to sell them every 2-3 years. Gold is an asset that can be held for 10-15 years. Also, since the volatility is low, you can plan well in advance when to sell the ETF units.
legendary
Activity: 3528
Merit: 7005
Top Crypto Casino
Breaking News: Wealthy Look to Protect Their Wealth Against Taxes.

Eh, not so newsworthy IMO.  I wasn't aware of the tax benefits of ETFs, never having invested in one, but the rich have been doing stuff like this since the first wealthy person came about.  I've been hearing a lot about new taxes in the US, and although I believe Biden has stated that he's targeting corporations and wealthy individuals, don't think for a minute that the average working Joe isn't going to be affected.  If only we had a Republican in the White House (other than Trump, mind you), this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Perhaps it would be good if the SEC gave crypto ETFs in america a green light?
I don't care either way, since I wouldn't be investing in any.  And if large investors want to get exposure to crypto, they can always trade futures on Bakkt or the CME, which I'm pretty sure they're doing anyway.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1441
Quote
The booming ETF industry may be set to lure even more cash in the coming years as rich Americans facing higher capital gains taxes look to limit what they owe Uncle Sam.

President Joe Biden’s plan to double the rate those making more than $1 million a year pay on investment profits would accelerate a shift that’s already seen hundreds of billions of dollars migrate from mutual funds to exchange-traded funds, market watchers say. That’s because ETFs are generally more tax efficient, spinning off fewer capital-gain disbursements that for some could soon become a lot more costly.

In fact, by one measure, the tax efficiency of ETFs has been the single most important driver behind the tectonic shift in asset allocations in recent years. While the administration’s plan remains in its infancy and is sure to face intense scrutiny from lawmakers in the months ahead, even an incremental hike in the capital-gains rate would likely spur further ETF usage, according to David Perlman, an ETF strategist at UBS Global Wealth Management.

“If capital gains tax rates are going to be higher, if you have a choice of a structure that helps to defer capital gains and gives you more control over when to recognize those gains, you’d be more inclined to go in that direction,” Perlman said.



When an investor exits a mutual fund, the fund’s manager must sell securities to raise cash for the redemption. The same investor leaving an ETF can sell their shares on to another investor, meaning neither the fund nor its manager has made a taxable transaction.

Meanwhile, the “in-kind” process used to create and redeem shares in an ETF -- whereby the ETF issuer exchanges the fund’s underlying securities with a market maker rather than transacting in cash -- means the ETF rarely executes a taxable sale.

A December study by researchers at Villanova and Lehigh universities found that over the past five years, ETFs have averaged a tax burden 0.92% lower than active mutual funds. Moreover, particularly for high net-worth investors, tax considerations have outweighed both performance and fees as the primary driver of flows out of active mutual funds and into ETFs, the findings showed.

“There’s no question Biden’s plan to hike the capital gains tax could be a boon for ETFs,” Nate Geraci, president of the ETF Store, an advisory firm, said via email. “Despite significant market share gains by ETFs over the past decade, there are still trillions of dollars locked in less tax efficient mutual funds.”

Last year alone, the ETF industry took in almost $500 billion, while mutual funds lost about $362 billion, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

ETF Advantage

Most ETFs hardly pass along any capital gains to shareholders nowadays. Only 3 of 585 in a CFRA analysis made disbursements in 2020, Todd Rosenbluth, head of ETF & mutual fund research at the firm, wrote in an April 26 report. Over the same span, 37 of 39 domestic equity mutual funds from T. Rowe Price Group Inc. incurred a capital gain, the analysis showed.

“We expect more people that mix ETFs and mutual funds together will be more inclined to shift toward strategies to avoid paying higher capital gains taxes in the future,” Rosenbluth wrote.

Even investors not affected by the higher rate could migrate toward ETFs, he added. Simply the discussion of capital gains reminds investors of the industry’s innate tax advantages over mutual funds.

Others aren’t convinced a higher capital-gains rate will do much to boost inflows into ETFs. Wealthy investors would have to sell their mutual fund holdings to make the switch, triggering significant tax liabilities in the process, said Michael Zigmont, head of trading and research at Harvest Volatility Management.

“I see this tax hike not being good or bad for ETFs,” he said.

Meanwhile, ETFs don’t suit every investment need. The U.S. retirement system remains heavily geared toward mutual funds, for example.

Nonetheless, Perlman agrees with Rosenbluth that the potential tax change could even have an impact on investors below the $1 million annual earnings threshold.

Those expecting to soon find themselves in the upper tax bracket, or concerned the threshold could be lowered down the road, are also likely to shift their future allocations, he said.

“The incentives apply more broadly than just to those impacted by the proposal,” Perlman said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-02/rich-americans-fleeing-tax-hikes-may-turbocharge-shift-to-etfs


....


According to this, some studies credit ETFs with an average 1% lower tax burden in comparison to mutual funds. This is attributed to shares in ETFs being untaxable exchanges between investors, rather than official buying/selling of securities. If true, this would mean ETFs have intrinsic tax advantages over mutual funds and other investments.

This might explain why the winklevoss twins tried so hard for so many years to bring cryptocurrency ETFs to the USA.

Perhaps it would be good if the SEC gave crypto ETFs in america a green light?
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