The 20% derate on 24/7 operation is a NEC requirement for ALL circuits - including your infeed from the transformer INTO the panel.
So yes, the 53 miners figure would be closer to correct, as "400 amp service" would work out to 320 USABLE amps (it's probably safe to fudge a couple of amps in that sort of a case, it's not a "OMG I went over an amp I'm FRIED" thing).
As far as your sig goes - I prefer the variant "We are the immortals. Join us or die.".
9-)
Topic: Safe wiring and equipment questions (Read 652 times)
Extension cable usage for the power levels involved on a 24/7 basis = MAJOR FIRE RISK.
Even if you use the uncommon ones that are rated for 20 amp capasity, the connections still get hot.
Even if you use the uncommon ones that are rated for 20 amp capasity, the connections still get hot.
I'm well aware of that. Like I said, I've used extension cables for running my aquafarming operation - heating, lighting, and aeration. The only real difference here is that the heating I typically use is rarely on 24/7, whereas a miner will be. Knowing what I can do to minimize the risks while doing so anyway is still helpful. Like I said, I'm not planning on doing that for long term, but long enough.
If you upgrade your breaker box (325 amps might not be an option, I think the options in that range are 300 and 400 for "non-custom" designs), plan to have the power company upgrade your service wiring to whatever they require for that "320 max amps" service.
Yeah, that seems to be the case. Thankfully, even though the documentation says 325 amps max, when I contacted the electric company they said they can do 400 amps of service. However, I'd have to upgrade all the house wiring in that case because the power company themselves require that they check all the wires prior to the upgrade.
Your current service wiring might only be rated for 100 amps at 220 vac (breaker boxes are commonly "oversized" 25% or so for safety reasons) - be cautious about pulling more than that, or even pushing CLOSE to that, as 24/7 service REQUIRES the wiring to be derated 20% for safety reasons.
That's very useful information. So if, hypothetically, I were to buy a second house just run Bitcoin miners and run them 24/7 and that house had 400 amps of service and I assume that each and every miner will somehow have the worst possible performance - 1360 watts drawn from the wall each - and only leave enough power left over to run fans and lights I wouldn't have a max of 66 miners (66 * 1360 = 89,760 watts ; leaving 6240 watts for the fans and lights) I'd really have 20% less than that at 240v? So, what, a max of 53 miners under such a scenario? Or is that a derated max per circuit, in which case as long as I run a single miner for every single circuit I'd still be able to run 66 miners in that scenario?
Reason I ask is that I will be building a space for the miners and need to plan the space and airflow according to what actually can be run.
Extension cable usage for the power levels involved on a 24/7 basis = MAJOR FIRE RISK.
Even if you use the uncommon ones that are rated for 20 amp capasity, the connections still get hot.
If you upgrade your breaker box (325 amps might not be an option, I think the options in that range are 300 and 400 for "non-custom" designs), plan to have the power company upgrade your service wiring to whatever they require for that "320 max amps" service.
Your current service wiring might only be rated for 100 amps at 220 vac (breaker boxes are commonly "oversized" 25% or so for safety reasons) - be cautious about pulling more than that, or even pushing CLOSE to that, as 24/7 service REQUIRES the wiring to be derated 20% for safety reasons.
Even if you use the uncommon ones that are rated for 20 amp capasity, the connections still get hot.
If you upgrade your breaker box (325 amps might not be an option, I think the options in that range are 300 and 400 for "non-custom" designs), plan to have the power company upgrade your service wiring to whatever they require for that "320 max amps" service.
Your current service wiring might only be rated for 100 amps at 220 vac (breaker boxes are commonly "oversized" 25% or so for safety reasons) - be cautious about pulling more than that, or even pushing CLOSE to that, as 24/7 service REQUIRES the wiring to be derated 20% for safety reasons.
Bitmain PSU does not switch modes, it runs continuously from 100-270V. Since it is current limited at the input, more input voltage will naturally give more output power.
In other words, it's automatic, rather than requiring a manual switch. Doesn't seem to make a difference overall.
The short version is that you want 240V (or 220 if you want to call it that).
Well of course I want that. Regardless of safety, I can use twice as many miners if I use all 240v outlets because I'd use less amps per miner at higher volts. As an aside, my breaker box is actual 110v/220v (I'm not just calling 240v a 220v line - there's an actual difference, although a small one) so I'd need a new fuse box anyway.
And from your description, I might suggest that it does not seem like a good idea to mine on antique wiring in the main house.
My service technically allows for up to 320 amps of total service standardized to 120/240v (although, interestingly, there is a 480v option in my area, not that it would seem to mean anything here), while my breaker box is currently rated up to 125 amps at 110/220v.
The plan remains to switch everything over to 240v eventually with a new 325 amp fuse box. What I'd like to shoot for is building an entire room in the basement myself - wooden framed, with some EM and sound shielding (not perfect of course) so it doesn't disrupt the rest of the house. It would be a good location to pump cold air in and then use the heated air for the house and greenhouse, although I'm unsure what to do about summer.
I was thinking I could disconnect the water heater and then have a plumber run pipes back and forth inside a hollow space in the wall where air from the outside can be cooled before going into the room and then continuing the pipes on the wall where the miners will be, with their fans plugged directly into a hollow space behind the wall, so the pipe would continue to be heated before going to the water heater (thus removing heat, and saving energy) but the problem with that idea is that if I draw air into that space in the winter it would instead freeze and burst those pipes so I'm still thinking of a possible work around to that. There's also the obvious problem where, although the water coming in from the city would be cold, it would heat up fast and unless I turn the hot water on frequently enough it could reduce the performance so I'd still have to rely on large enough fans to move the air quickly.
However, I can't afford to do that right now with the money I already spent on miners. That's why I'm asking about safe wiring in the event that there is any delay in upgrading electrical. At the very least I will try to have 6 outlets added in one section of my basement where it can get access to cool outside area, which should use a max of 35 - 39 amps depending on if the electrician can get it to work at 240 volts or not, and also leave the other area clear for building, new wiring, and new plumbing. My intention is to do that as quickly as possible and then take my time having the new room built. Then, when it's ready, I'd upgrade to the 325 amp fuse at most 15 feet from any outlet I'd be mining from. However, there is still the possibility that I will have to run on 110v outlets at least initially so I want to plan for that possibility.
Consider having your electrician install a new circuit breaker panel with a few 30A, 240V circuits. It should be separate from the old wiring and hopefully separate in terms of code since it splits right at the feed. Only the feed to the panel to outlet should need to be permitted, and your other panel and old wiring should be outside that. At least that's how the code would work in my state, which is also pretty onerous about bringing everything up to code if you touch anything in the string. Also, if your code is strict don't do it yourself - you will get bit if you ever sell the place and they find unpermitted work
That's sort of what I was thinking I could do with the temporary area for now. The breaker panel has 8 extra circuits that are unused, so I could even use a whole circuit for each miner if it was necessary without having to replace the panel or touch the house wiring. That should keep costs down and minimize the amount of time I would have to spent on 110v.
Last, a new panel will be new wiring so it should not flicker in voltage like the rest of the house wiring, UNLESS your problem is an old connection to the mains out at the pole.
Actually, even if it is the drop line (which very well could be the problem - lights do dim briefly whenever a space heater clicks on and are prone to blowing - but I'm assuming that if I upgrade to a 325 amp breaker box I will need a new drop line anyway.
In that case, you'll easily know on the day you power up the rig because all your lights will dim considerably. 
But then it's on the utility company to come and grind the corrosion off your feed so your connection doesn't suck anymore. In fact, you may want to call them and tell them you already get flicker and are about to throw another 10kW on their feed and you want it checked out. My colleague had flicker, and they found the connection was not watertight underground and nearly corroded through - fixed in a day at no cost to him as it was outside the meter.
But then it's on the utility company to come and grind the corrosion off your feed so your connection doesn't suck anymore. In fact, you may want to call them and tell them you already get flicker and are about to throw another 10kW on their feed and you want it checked out. My colleague had flicker, and they found the connection was not watertight underground and nearly corroded through - fixed in a day at no cost to him as it was outside the meter.Way ahead of you there, although was a bit more cryptic. I basically told them in an email that I was planning some renovations and wanted to upgrade my wiring and fuse boxes and wanted to future proof so asked about upgrading to a 325 amp service and how much it would cost. I don't want to tip them off yet that I will expect my electric bill to skyrocket by $500 practically overnight and remain there permanently and then jump again by another $500 a few months later. I'm on budget billing and I am actually hoping that if I time things right it will take 3 months before the energy bill actually goes up which should speed up my ability to afford the upgrades . Additionally, while there doesn't appear to be a maximum power draw (we actually pay less when we go over 800 kwh) there is a clause that we are subject to energy audits if we hit a high threshold of usage so don't want to tip them off to that either. Not before I am ready anyway.
I wasn't aware that it could be free though, so when I hear back from them I will mention the flicker and power supplies erupting in flames and ask if the line can be checked at no cost earlier.
While I am doing all the upgrades though, would a whole house battery backup make any meaningful difference? Not that I expect one to run up to 50 miners, but if the power can last long enough to deal with a power flicker or a brown out that would be nice. Additionally, I wonder if a whole house voltage regulator and surge protector would help to protect them more than putting one on each miner.
Bitmain PSU does not switch modes, it runs continuously from 100-270V. Since it is current limited at the input, more input voltage will naturally give more output power. The short version is that you want 240V (or 220 if you want to call it that). And from your description, I might suggest that it does not seem like a good idea to mine on antique wiring in the main house.
Consider having your electrician install a new circuit breaker panel with a few 30A, 240V circuits. It should be separate from the old wiring and hopefully separate in terms of code since it splits right at the feed. Only the feed to the panel to outlet should need to be permitted, and your other panel and old wiring should be outside that. At least that's how the code would work in my state, which is also pretty onerous about bringing everything up to code if you touch anything in the string. Also, if your code is strict don't do it yourself - you will get bit if you ever sell the place and they find unpermitted work
Last, a new panel will be new wiring so it should not flicker in voltage like the rest of the house wiring, UNLESS your problem is an old connection to the mains out at the pole.
In that case, you'll easily know on the day you power up the rig because all your lights will dim considerably. But then it's on the utility company to come and grind the corrosion off your feed so your connection doesn't suck anymore. In fact, you may want to call them and tell them you already get flicker and are about to throw another 10kW on their feed and you want it checked out. My colleague had flicker, and they found the connection was not watertight underground and nearly corroded through - fixed in a day at no cost to him as it was outside the meter.
Consider having your electrician install a new circuit breaker panel with a few 30A, 240V circuits. It should be separate from the old wiring and hopefully separate in terms of code since it splits right at the feed. Only the feed to the panel to outlet should need to be permitted, and your other panel and old wiring should be outside that. At least that's how the code would work in my state, which is also pretty onerous about bringing everything up to code if you touch anything in the string. Also, if your code is strict don't do it yourself - you will get bit if you ever sell the place and they find unpermitted work
Last, a new panel will be new wiring so it should not flicker in voltage like the rest of the house wiring, UNLESS your problem is an old connection to the mains out at the pole.
In that case, you'll easily know on the day you power up the rig because all your lights will dim considerably.
But then it's on the utility company to come and grind the corrosion off your feed so your connection doesn't suck anymore. In fact, you may want to call them and tell them you already get flicker and are about to throw another 10kW on their feed and you want it checked out. My colleague had flicker, and they found the connection was not watertight underground and nearly corroded through - fixed in a day at no cost to him as it was outside the meter. I like your signature.
Thanks
Bitmain psu uses 208 volts plus and you do not have that as I read the posting you made.
I read that this was true, but apparently it can switch between modes like other modern power supplies now to deliver 1200 watts at 110v and 1600 watts at 220v:
https://shop.bitmain.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020170920224132179WEIOvhXx06D6
https://www.amazon.com/AntMiner-Power-Supply-APW3-Connectors/dp/B0733JRFVL/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1512159635&sr=8-2&keywords=bitmain+psu
(Their shipping costs are killer though, so not a huge savings)
If your power fluxes like mad I have to ask how old it it.
Ie what year was it built.
also if in the USA what state are you in.
Ie what year was it built.
also if in the USA what state are you in.
My house is an 1880's Victorian. So old, it originally had coal heat when heat was a luxury. The electrical was last updated in the 70's and has breaker switches, rather than fuses. It will have to be updated eventually anyway because it won't provide enough power for more than maybe 10 miners, but will need to make ROI before I can afford to do that.
With voltage regulators in place I haven't had any problems with my other sensitive equipment. I have sensitive equipment, such as a neural interface, spectrometer, robots, and virtual reality that all need clean power and have no problems as long as voltage regulation is in place.
Just keep in mind when when a PSU watts specified its usually at the 12v rail. So you will likely see allot more power being drawn at the wall due to efficiency losses.
When running a continuous load, the circuit needs to be de-rated buy 0.8. So at 15 Amps circuit will only be good for 12 Amps.
When running a continuous load, the circuit needs to be de-rated buy 0.8. So at 15 Amps circuit will only be good for 12 Amps.
So how much power draw would you expect from each outlet, when a given outlet will only run a single AntMiner S9?
Voltage drop will kill your efficiency and make your wires and PSU hot. Keep you connections short and don't use extension cords.
I can avoid using extenders on the PSU 6-pin connectors, but I don't thing I can avoid using heavy duty extension cords. Currently, I use them to heat my greenhouse with power from the main house - two extension cords, actually - without any real problem. I also use space heaters upstairs from extension cables at the first floor, and those all run 1500 watts - though not continuously.
If I use extension cables, I can put all the miners in the same place and keep them from over heating by pumping in cold air from the outside and heating the house evenly from the basement. I can also keep all the network cables together, and most importantly be able to watch them more consistently for any problems.
What if I made sure to turn the miners all off for one hour a day? How much of an impact would that have?
120V is really not a good voltage for ASIC mining, it draws way to much amps, switch to 208,220 or 240 whenever possible.
The main problem is that I can't just pay an electrician to update the fuse box and put in a few new outlets. By law, when that type of work happens, they have to rewire the entire house ripping everything out. Well, I can do it myself and have done some electrical work before, but nothing of this scale so would prefer hiring someone to do it. If there's anyone reading this in Illinois who would be able to though, well, an estimate would be great.
I would still need voltage regulation though, wouldn't I? and surge protection? What do you suppose I would need to add to the new fuse box if I want to regulate the voltage coming into the house with surge protection?
The eventual goal is to buy a second house and set it to use all 220v outlets to run most of my mining in, but for right now I have limits.
EDIT: Called an electrician to at least give me an estimate as to how much it will cost to upgrade for sure.
Just keep in mind when when a PSU watts specified its usually at the 12v rail. So you will likely see allot more power being drawn at the wall due to efficiency losses.
When running a continuous load, the circuit needs to be de-rated buy 0.8. So at 15 Amps circuit will only be good for 12 Amps.
Voltage drop will kill your efficiency and make your wires and PSU hot. Keep you connections short and don't use extension cords.
120V is really not a good voltage for ASIC mining, it draws way to much amps, switch to 208,220 or 240 whenever possible.
When running a continuous load, the circuit needs to be de-rated buy 0.8. So at 15 Amps circuit will only be good for 12 Amps.
Voltage drop will kill your efficiency and make your wires and PSU hot. Keep you connections short and don't use extension cords.
120V is really not a good voltage for ASIC mining, it draws way to much amps, switch to 208,220 or 240 whenever possible.
I like your signature.
The post mmmn not sure what to say.
Bitmain psu uses 208 volts plus and you do not have that as I read the posting you made.
If your power fluxes like mad I have to ask how old it it.
Ie what year was it built.
also if in the USA what state are you in.
The post mmmn not sure what to say.
Bitmain psu uses 208 volts plus and you do not have that as I read the posting you made.
If your power fluxes like mad I have to ask how old it it.
Ie what year was it built.
also if in the USA what state are you in.
I once had a brand new EVGA PSU literally erupt in flames in front of me after just a week of mining. It was powering two overclocked Antminers. I kept everything within the power rating of the PSU, but it wasn't enough. In my case though I traced the problem to voltage irregularities in my home wiring (which also, incidentally, causes light bulbs to burn out more often than I'd like). The fire didn't turn the devices off either, so thankfully I was home and there when it actually happened. That was the scare that pushed me into the foolishness of cloud mining, where I made profit overall, but was scammed enough times that I don't consider them worth it, especially since electricity in my area is only 0.10148724 cents per kwh (including delivery charge) and since I otherwise use electric heating for my Spirulina farm so can consider the energy costs negligible since I'd spend that money anyway.
Well, I'm getting ready to run miners again, but only ordered the latest models after testing voltage regulators with my high end development machine pushing it's limits and it seems to do the trick. However, I am still wary. I'm getting a Bitmain PSU this time to run an AntMiner S9, but the voltage regulator I settled on (this one) has a limit of 1200 watts. While I'm not sure what the power draw from the wall will be, I can be fairly certain that if it outputs 1200 watts at 120 volts it will draw more than 1200 watts at the wall and therefore would either push the limits of the voltage regulator or not work at all.
I thought about underclocking the PSU until the power draw is under 1200 watts, but that still seems like it would push it. Instead, I'm planning on using two Bitmain PSU per 1 AntMiner S9, but their product page says not to use one PSU per board. I know there are only 3 plugs per board plus 1 on top, but what I don't know is how much power is drawn per cable. Is it an even distribution? Does the one on top use less than the others? I figure if I spread it out more evenly things would be safer.
I was thinking of running a single heavy duty extension cable from different parts of the house to the area where I will be mining (so I can effectively control the temperature and pump the heated air where I will need it and so I'm not drawing too much from a single outlet - similar to how I am already using space heaters everywhere) until I reach the safe limits and then use earnings to upgrade the electrical of my house. I would have a single surge protector plugged into it which will have two voltage regulators plugged into it, each voltage regulator having a single Bitmain PSU, and both PSU's together powering a single AntMiner S9 (so I expect the total load per extension cable will be less than 1500 watts) Can anyone recommend a good heavy duty power cable and surge protector for this use?
Now, when my fire occurred, the cable melted as well and looking at other reports like this thread it seems that melting wires is a potential problem. I also can see how short their cables are overall. In which case, would running 6 pin power extenders make such damage less likely or more likely? Can anyone recommend good ones that are long and reliable for my needs? or are they too risky to recommend? Right now I'm thinking of using this power cable and this surge protector.
When I upgrade the wiring and have several new 220 volt outlets installed by an electrician I figure I would then have extra power supplies to use with more miners, but I know that the frequency of the power is different in North America compared to the rest of the world so wasn't sure how that might affect anything. Additionally, I'd have to buy new voltage regulators. I could replace them with 220v versions like this one, but haven't used that one yet and it's product page here says that it's not for North America, and actually, all 220v voltage regulators I looked into said something similar so not sure if I even can run those. I was curious if anyone else tried using voltage regulators with miners and what they'd suggest. Alternatively, was wondering if whole house voltage regulation and surge protection can replace - or should supplement - these individual units.
For the internet connection, what I was planning on doing was setting up a WAN Load balancer so that I can use more than one ISP (to protect against internet outages or drops from a single carrier) and then run a single long Ethernet cable like this one to the mining room where I'd run one of these splitters to the miners with a short Ethernet cable like this one. Does anyone else have any alternative suggestions though?
Also: I currently use battery backups for all of my work equipment, which is amazingly useful in brown out situations and I definately plan to at least have the modems and routers running on them, but if a house had tens of miners would a whole house battery back up be worth the money? I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't run them for any length of time, but maybe for a brown out situation? Or is there no problem letting them all reboot when the power flickers?
Thanks.
Well, I'm getting ready to run miners again, but only ordered the latest models after testing voltage regulators with my high end development machine pushing it's limits and it seems to do the trick. However, I am still wary. I'm getting a Bitmain PSU this time to run an AntMiner S9, but the voltage regulator I settled on (this one) has a limit of 1200 watts. While I'm not sure what the power draw from the wall will be, I can be fairly certain that if it outputs 1200 watts at 120 volts it will draw more than 1200 watts at the wall and therefore would either push the limits of the voltage regulator or not work at all.
I thought about underclocking the PSU until the power draw is under 1200 watts, but that still seems like it would push it. Instead, I'm planning on using two Bitmain PSU per 1 AntMiner S9, but their product page says not to use one PSU per board. I know there are only 3 plugs per board plus 1 on top, but what I don't know is how much power is drawn per cable. Is it an even distribution? Does the one on top use less than the others? I figure if I spread it out more evenly things would be safer.
I was thinking of running a single heavy duty extension cable from different parts of the house to the area where I will be mining (so I can effectively control the temperature and pump the heated air where I will need it and so I'm not drawing too much from a single outlet - similar to how I am already using space heaters everywhere) until I reach the safe limits and then use earnings to upgrade the electrical of my house. I would have a single surge protector plugged into it which will have two voltage regulators plugged into it, each voltage regulator having a single Bitmain PSU, and both PSU's together powering a single AntMiner S9 (so I expect the total load per extension cable will be less than 1500 watts) Can anyone recommend a good heavy duty power cable and surge protector for this use?
Now, when my fire occurred, the cable melted as well and looking at other reports like this thread it seems that melting wires is a potential problem. I also can see how short their cables are overall. In which case, would running 6 pin power extenders make such damage less likely or more likely? Can anyone recommend good ones that are long and reliable for my needs? or are they too risky to recommend? Right now I'm thinking of using this power cable and this surge protector.
When I upgrade the wiring and have several new 220 volt outlets installed by an electrician I figure I would then have extra power supplies to use with more miners, but I know that the frequency of the power is different in North America compared to the rest of the world so wasn't sure how that might affect anything. Additionally, I'd have to buy new voltage regulators. I could replace them with 220v versions like this one, but haven't used that one yet and it's product page here says that it's not for North America, and actually, all 220v voltage regulators I looked into said something similar so not sure if I even can run those. I was curious if anyone else tried using voltage regulators with miners and what they'd suggest. Alternatively, was wondering if whole house voltage regulation and surge protection can replace - or should supplement - these individual units.
For the internet connection, what I was planning on doing was setting up a WAN Load balancer so that I can use more than one ISP (to protect against internet outages or drops from a single carrier) and then run a single long Ethernet cable like this one to the mining room where I'd run one of these splitters to the miners with a short Ethernet cable like this one. Does anyone else have any alternative suggestions though?
Also: I currently use battery backups for all of my work equipment, which is amazingly useful in brown out situations and I definately plan to at least have the modems and routers running on them, but if a house had tens of miners would a whole house battery back up be worth the money? I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't run them for any length of time, but maybe for a brown out situation? Or is there no problem letting them all reboot when the power flickers?
Thanks.
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