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Topic: scathing incitement of the FED's settlement in the HSBC money laundering case (Read 1616 times)

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
There's a similar-ish article here:

   http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/opinion/how-bankers-help-drug-traffickers-and-terrorists.html?_r=0

It's written by a guy who was a long time AML cop.

Fun though it is to bash banks (or any large corporation), I think it's important to see the story from both sides. Especially if you plan to use these sorts of cases in arguments about AML. We haven't heard much from HSBC or other banks during such episodes, I suppose because they don't want to antagonize the government any further. So let me play devils advocate and lay out what kind of arguments they might make, if they had free reign to do so.

Fundamentally, the charge of money laundering is that the bank allowed criminals to do business with them. Why would a bank do this? One explanation is because it was profitable - but it's profitable for the bank, much less so for the individuals concerned, usually, yet the jail sentences that can go with it definitely apply to the individuals. Actually the most common and simplest explanation is because they didn't realize what was happening. This is touched on in the NY Times article:

Quote
The largest and most sophisticated of these criminal enterprises don’t trick banks into laundering their money — they partner with that small segment of the international banking and business community that recirculates drug profits and cash from other illicit trades, like black-market arms dealing ..... Bank officers at HSBC branches in Mexico who facilitated the transfer of $881 million for the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico, the Norte del Valle Cartel in Colombia and other narcotics traffickers — deposits that were often passed through teller windows in cash-filled boxes, some with hundreds of thousands of dollars in them — might contend that they were naïve about this money’s source. But there’s little incentive for them, or any bank officer, to be more vigilant when turning a blind eye comes with little or no penalty.

The articles author of course has an unusual perspective - he worked undercover to put leaders of drug cartels behind bars, as he put it, so he's going to be very pro AML. The idea that there's "no penalty" is especially absurd given the enormous jail sentences that can accompany money laundering convictions. Even then, in this quote we can see the seeds of the problem. The largest and most sophisticated operations don't trick banks. Therefore, the rest of them do. Bank officers, he says, "might contend they were naïve to the moneys source" - in other words, they WILL contend that they didn't know where the money came from. The language is extremely biased, but here is the root of the banks defense. They didn't know.

If you read the articles about the HSBC deal, you could be forgiven for thinking that men in dark shades with baseball bats turned up to deposit boxes of cash labelled "drug money". This is almost certainly not what happened. Whilst they may have turned up with lots of cash, the men probably had apparently legitimate reasons for doing so (eg, owning a network of bars/restaurants). Now maybe some bank teller or officer might suspect there's something odd going on, maybe the volumes don't  line up with what you'd expect. But where do you draw the line between banker and private detective? The law is written such that they are supposed to try and avoid being easily duped, but how much is done to avoid that is a vague gray area.

And the motive to shirk is not only financial - these are Mexican drug cartels we're talking about. If you're a low level bank officer in Mexico City and suspect that the money claimed to be coming from bars is actually drug money, are you going to go all vigilate on their ass? Hell no. These are people who kill anyone who gets in their way, but not before killing or torturing their friends and family. Even the Mexican army has failed to seriously wipe out the cartels, so what chance does a humble bank teller have? I think it's easy for politicians in Washington to lecture bank CEOs about the importance of money laundering, but if they suddenly swapped places with the guys on the front line down in Mexico, they'd start to feel a bit different.

This difficulty of motivating and training front-line staff to be private detectives is a repeated complaint from AML regulated companies. Especially because the liability for missed money laundering doesn't fall on the people who missed it. It tends to fall on high level executives who are a million miles away from the actual money flows.

The idea that you can fight crime by turning the banking sector into a shadow police force is an attractive one, but the evidence for its success is questionable. The price of street drugs has steadily fallen over the last decades, even accounting for changes in purity and inflation. That's true despite that the amount of AML regulation and severity of the punishments has been constantly increased.

In short, yet another case where the US fails as a cultural, societal, political and legal model, and yet another excellent reason why the US isn't fit to "lead", if that's what they think they were doing.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
the banks know exactly what they're doing.  don't be naive.  and i suspect that just about everyone involved in a bank from top to bottom know as well.  there are threads here on the forum that have dozens of examples of dozens of banks who have engaged in laundering over dozens of years.  the heads of these banks graduated from Ivy League schools for heavens sake and are some of the smartest ppl in the world.

William Black and Janet Tavakoli have written about this phenomenon extensively and call it "control fraud".  the higher ups may claim they don't know what's going on but they do.  they may color it by saying to their lower level managers, "i expect you to make money.  i don't care how you do it; just don't tell me.  but that's what i expect. and if you don't, you won't have a job next year".  you expect me to believe these CEO's don't have an imagination?

the fact that none of these ppl have gone to prison says it all.  if there are no penalties exacted they will just keep doing the same thing over and over again.

http://ml-implode.com/staticnews/2013-01-08_SecretGoldmanTeamSidestepsVolckerAfterBlankfeinVowBloomberg.html
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1019
Matt Taibbi is one of the good guys who's relentless unabashed scathing critiques of the banksters on Wall Street during the financial crisis will go down in history as some of the best documentation of what truly happened.

Rolling Stone magazine of all places.

I remember I cited an article of his in a high school essay for a business foundations class and got trashed because it was Rolling Stones and an illegitimate source :p

whatever
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1129
I wasn't trying to make a point about Bitcoin specifically, just provide some extra colour to the story.

HSBC may well be incompetent or lazy. That I would not doubt. Any Bitcoin business that engages in regulated activity will have to dot every i and cross every t. I'm sure some won't and will get into trouble, then it'll be painted as a "bitcoin problem" by the press even though that's misleading. But hopefully the important ones will. They certainly seem to be trying.

I agree about Tony. He is a real asset.

BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
Yes Mike, Great analysis but what does that have to do with bitcoin?  My point in citing the article is that the bitcoin community has to create "talking points" when bitcoin is called out as the "secret anonymous internet money used to buy drugs on the silk road."  We'll yea that's a fact but not nearly at the same volume as the very public and easily accessible world currency the Federal Reserve Note.

In the HSBC situation it was clearly  a case of creating plausible deniability.  If you read the very lengthy congressional report, especially the interviews with HSBC leadership and management it is clear what they were doing. HSBC is s global corporation with a ceo and management that oversee other divisions on almost every continent or at least every region of the world.   Each of those regions has a regional head and management teams that over see money laundering staff. 

When the shit hit the fan everyone started pointing fingers and while it was nearly impossible to implicate an one individual (look at the Corizine case) it was clear that there was a systemic failure to manage and respond to money laundering issues.  So a few mid-level managers in the regional divisions lose there jobs.  Everyone else moves up that ladder and the bank pay a fraction of the total profits in the effort in fines.  Ahhh to be a multi-billion dollar global conglomerate. 

But the real issue here is the US Patriot Act which spawned very stringent additions and changes to anti-money laundering (AML) and Know Your Customer (KYC) regulations with which the US Government is now strong-arming the rest of the world to put into place as a means of gaining financial control and access to additional  information of the world's population.

An this is why, in my option, we'll see the powers that be attempt to crush this movement before it reaches any plausible, wide spread adoption.

We'll see indictments of bitcoin business on money laundering charges and aiding in terrorism.  Income tax audits  and other additional scrutiny.   

But the bottom line is we as a community most continue to hone our message.  I'm not sure if the bitcoin foundation has figured out what's its purpose it yet.  Charlie Shrem of Bitinstant is certainly one of our most vocal advocates.  Eric Vhorees is also a very articulate although at time over enthusiastic bitcoin advocate.  But you really have to hear Anthony Gallippi, CEO of BitPay speak or be interviewed.  I think his knowledgeable, confident approach currently appeals best to a general population audience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH4rH6wu25U
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1149
Excellent post Mike.

You know, by pointing to HSBC and saying they failed to stop money laundering, you're sending the message that they should have tried harder, and by implication, Bitcoin should try harder too. It can't, so that implies Bitcoin should not exist at all. A much better message is to say you obviously don't care about HSBC laundering money, so why do you care that Bitcoin can be used for that purpose too?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1129
There's a similar-ish article here:

   http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/opinion/how-bankers-help-drug-traffickers-and-terrorists.html?_r=0

It's written by a guy who was a long time AML cop.

Fun though it is to bash banks (or any large corporation), I think it's important to see the story from both sides. Especially if you plan to use these sorts of cases in arguments about AML. We haven't heard much from HSBC or other banks during such episodes, I suppose because they don't want to antagonize the government any further. So let me play devils advocate and lay out what kind of arguments they might make, if they had free reign to do so.

Fundamentally, the charge of money laundering is that the bank allowed criminals to do business with them. Why would a bank do this? One explanation is because it was profitable - but it's profitable for the bank, much less so for the individuals concerned, usually, yet the jail sentences that can go with it definitely apply to the individuals. Actually the most common and simplest explanation is because they didn't realize what was happening. This is touched on in the NY Times article:

Quote
The largest and most sophisticated of these criminal enterprises don’t trick banks into laundering their money — they partner with that small segment of the international banking and business community that recirculates drug profits and cash from other illicit trades, like black-market arms dealing ..... Bank officers at HSBC branches in Mexico who facilitated the transfer of $881 million for the Sinaloa Cartel in Mexico, the Norte del Valle Cartel in Colombia and other narcotics traffickers — deposits that were often passed through teller windows in cash-filled boxes, some with hundreds of thousands of dollars in them — might contend that they were naïve about this money’s source. But there’s little incentive for them, or any bank officer, to be more vigilant when turning a blind eye comes with little or no penalty.

The articles author of course has an unusual perspective - he worked undercover to put leaders of drug cartels behind bars, as he put it, so he's going to be very pro AML. The idea that there's "no penalty" is especially absurd given the enormous jail sentences that can accompany money laundering convictions. Even then, in this quote we can see the seeds of the problem. The largest and most sophisticated operations don't trick banks. Therefore, the rest of them do. Bank officers, he says, "might contend they were naïve to the moneys source" - in other words, they WILL contend that they didn't know where the money came from. The language is extremely biased, but here is the root of the banks defense. They didn't know.

If you read the articles about the HSBC deal, you could be forgiven for thinking that men in dark shades with baseball bats turned up to deposit boxes of cash labelled "drug money". This is almost certainly not what happened. Whilst they may have turned up with lots of cash, the men probably had apparently legitimate reasons for doing so (eg, owning a network of bars/restaurants). Now maybe some bank teller or officer might suspect there's something odd going on, maybe the volumes don't  line up with what you'd expect. But where do you draw the line between banker and private detective? The law is written such that they are supposed to try and avoid being easily duped, but how much is done to avoid that is a vague gray area.

And the motive to shirk is not only financial - these are Mexican drug cartels we're talking about. If you're a low level bank officer in Mexico City and suspect that the money claimed to be coming from bars is actually drug money, are you going to go all vigilate on their ass? Hell no. These are people who kill anyone who gets in their way, but not before killing or torturing their friends and family. Even the Mexican army has failed to seriously wipe out the cartels, so what chance does a humble bank teller have? I think it's easy for politicians in Washington to lecture bank CEOs about the importance of money laundering, but if they suddenly swapped places with the guys on the front line down in Mexico, they'd start to feel a bit different.

This difficulty of motivating and training front-line staff to be private detectives is a repeated complaint from AML regulated companies. Especially because the liability for missed money laundering doesn't fall on the people who missed it. It tends to fall on high level executives who are a million miles away from the actual money flows.

The idea that you can fight crime by turning the banking sector into a shadow police force is an attractive one, but the evidence for its success is questionable. The price of street drugs has steadily fallen over the last decades, even accounting for changes in purity and inflation. That's true despite that the amount of AML regulation and severity of the punishments has been constantly increased.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
I'm not surprised.  It happens every day.  Take MF global for example.  While a congressional inquery found that the failure of the company and the massive loss of customer fund fell squarely on the shoulders of John Corizine, they stopped short of formal accusations of wrong doing.  Pirate had nothing on this guy.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/14/news/companies/corzine-mf-global/index.html
http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2011/12/08/n_mf_global_corzine_testimony.cnnmoney/

The point is that when politicians and others vilify bitcoin as online form of money laundering used to buy and sell drugs (and totally ignore the game-changing technology and implication of the protocol) we need to remind them there there are far greater - government sanctioned - travesties being carried out in the name of crony capitalism.


sr. member
Activity: 328
Merit: 250
Since when is everyone so shocked that the level of immunity to prosecution increases with the level of importance?  Various kinds of immunity are extended to public figures and government officials in the US.  The president can pardon anyone, diplomats and their families can murder people and not be prosecuted, congressmen have congressional immunity, etc.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
Matt Taibbi is one of the good guys who's relentless unabashed scathing critiques of the banksters on Wall Street during the financial crisis will go down in history as some of the best documentation of what truly happened.

Rolling Stone magazine of all places.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213

This was posted elsewhere under a less sensational subject but this article must be read by everyone.

Next time Charles Schumer jumps on his silk road/ bitcoin soap box.  Just pull a few quotes from this to fire back at him!

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