seed storage | Bitcointalksearch.org

pooya87

legendary

Activity: 3472

Merit: 10611

the point of storing your seed on a paper is to store it on something that is NOT digital for security reasons.
your computer, cell phone, USB disk,...
- all can be stolen. specially small (portable) ones such as a cell phone or USB disk. a thief will most probably not know what the value of a piece of paper is but he surely knows what an iPhone is worth!
- they can be hacked, of course this can be prevented by encryption and being offline.
- and finally the issue that people usually forget: digital mediums can also be damaged. paper can degrade, so does your USB. but in case of digital storage they lose data and if that happens you won't have access to your money.

a safety deposit box is a good idea if you have a large amount of money stored in bitcoin.
but remember that storing your seed doesn't have to mean a piece of paper labeled "My Bitcoin Seed worth billions" and be in your drawer! be more creative. write it down in a book, in different pages. you may even be able to find the words in each page and circle them Wink

BitcoinNewsMagazine

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1164

Quote from: drgrah on November 26, 2017, 04:57:39 PM

So I'm not completely comfortable with having my seeds stored on paper in my house. I'm no more comfortable than I would be having a pile of cash stored in a drawer. I was wondering if this would be safe, or safer?: Take an old iPhone, disconnect it from the internet and store the seed in a password protected app on the phone? At least if someone found it, they would have to get past 2 more security levels (the fingerprint unlock and then the password app code). Knowing that the phone in the past has been connected to the internet, would it be safe if I turned off the wifi? I figure once BTC passes $50,000 my paranoia will be such that I'll probably get a safe deposit box. What do you think? Safe? Would it be safer than a password protected USB stick, if there is such a thing?

Use a safe or a safety deposit box. For another layer of protection you can store the seed in a Veracrypt encrypted container stored on a flash drive. The one thing you do not ever want to do is store your seed (even encrypted) online on Dropbox or Google Drive etc.

BitcoinNewsMagazine

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1164

Quote from: drgrah on November 26, 2017, 05:13:51 PM

Quote from: Emoclaw on November 26, 2017, 05:08:35 PM

You don't have to do all that, actually that would be less secure. That old iPhone could be stolen and then compromised. The app could have vulnerabilities.
Why not just encrypt the seed using basic text encryption with a password and writing the encrypted string on a paper instead?
It's basically what you're trying to accomplish but without any concerns of hardware failure.

Notepad++ allows you to encrypt text using different algorithms directly from the UI using a plugin called NppCrypt.

...Or you could get a hardware wallet.

I already have a Trezor hardware wallet, which is secure-ish in itself. But I'm talking about the backup seeds, which I filled out on a card. But the backup card is as good as cash if someone finds it - is it not?
Yeah, the app might have vulnerabilities. But even the FBI has trouble getting into iPhones, so why would that not be more secure is what I'm asking? I guess the real question is if I keep the phone offline from now on, nobody can hack it through the internet, and if someone physically gets it, it would still be harder to get the seeds than if someone physically gets my written down seed card.

That is why you should always use a passphrase with your Trezor. It acts as the 25th word of the seed. Without the passphrase which you keep in your head your coins in Trezor can not be stolen if someone has the seed.

jseverson

hero member

Activity: 1834

Merit: 759

Why so paranoid? It should be just as safe on a piece of paper as an airgapped iPhone. In fact, I would argue that the iPhone is more likely to get stolen. I feel that people overestimate Bitcoin's popularity in these scenarios. Thieves break into houses in search of money and jewelry. They're usually pressed for time too, so I doubt they would pay any mind to some random notebook on some random drawer. It's basically hiding in plain sight.

Well, I guess things are different if you have someone in close proximity who knows about your coins. Targeted attacks tend to be more effective than random ones. In this case, when they see an iPhone lying around, they will assume that it's being used to store some coins, and they might check every piece of paper in the house for seeds. Hardware wallets can be stolen, but at least they won't be able to access your coins. That's the best option, I'm guessing.

bitcoindusts

sr. member

Activity: 1092

Merit: 271

I believe that having what OP in mind would securely keep the seeds but as of me I would not get that far. Simply being quiet about my holdings and keeping these pass keys and private keys locked in my stash would definitely keep others away from getting it. Trezor or Nano Ledger is good but if someone really wanted to steal your coin/token personally then you won't do anything about it, since they will do dirty tricks just to make you give him these stuff.

hatshepsut93

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 2162

If it's a standard Electrum 12 word seed, it's quite easy to memorize - just do it once and then repeat it at least once per day, and this is really one of the best ways to store your seed, because no one would even know about it and the only way to get it is through rubber-hose cryptanalysis (which is actually a real threat, as recently there were incidents of bitcoiners getting kidnapped and forced to send their coins). You can also get creative and invent your own methods of seed storage - for example store it in pictures, encode them into audio file, etc. There's also a cool thing called steganography - a practice of hiding information within some other file in a digital way. You can take your family picture, hide your seed into it and it will only slightly change it, unnoticeable to human eye - then just store it on your PC and no one will even suspect.

dimastegar

sr. member

Activity: 798

Merit: 251

Small Trader

It will certainly be safe. However, even though there are 2 levels of security, we can not avoid if our phone suddenly damaged or lost which resulted in us losing our wallets. Unless we have a previous backup wallet. No system is safe. Because anything can happen.

drgrah

newbie

Activity: 45

Merit: 0

Quote from: figmentofmyass on November 26, 2017, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: drgrah on November 26, 2017, 04:57:39 PM

So I'm not completely comfortable with having my seeds stored on paper in my house. I'm no more comfortable than I would be having a pile of cash stored in a drawer. I was wondering if this would be safe, or safer?: Take an old iPhone, disconnect it from the internet and store the seed in a password protected app on the phone? At least if someone found it, they would have to get past 2 more security levels (the fingerprint unlock and then the password app code). Knowing that the phone in the past has been connected to the internet, would it be safe if I turned off the wifi? I figure once BTC passes $50,000 my paranoia will be such that I'll probably get a safe deposit box. What do you think? Safe? Would it be safer than a password protected USB stick, if there is such a thing?

in this scenario, i'd be more concerned about device/hard drive failure than anything else. you would definitely want to back up your seed on multiple devices, then encrypt them. and then you would probably want to keep them in different physical locations -- places where you are sure they won't be stolen and picked over. e.g. your house, your mom's house, your work desk, locked in a drawer.

there are password-protected USBs and hard drives but they generally use pretty weak encryption. there are no great answers here. paper copy in a fire-proof safe with two encrypted copies of the wallet on USB, etc. stored in two different trusted physical places is how I roll.

Hi and thanks for this. Are "two encrypted copies of the wallet on USB" different terminology but the same thing as storing the wallet seeds on USB? If not, can you tell me how to do it please? i get what you mean about hardware failure. It seems to me that a powered down iPhone ought to last pretty much indefinitely. But I'd definitely not rely on just one.

figmentofmyass

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1483

Quote from: drgrah on November 26, 2017, 04:57:39 PM

So I'm not completely comfortable with having my seeds stored on paper in my house. I'm no more comfortable than I would be having a pile of cash stored in a drawer. I was wondering if this would be safe, or safer?: Take an old iPhone, disconnect it from the internet and store the seed in a password protected app on the phone? At least if someone found it, they would have to get past 2 more security levels (the fingerprint unlock and then the password app code). Knowing that the phone in the past has been connected to the internet, would it be safe if I turned off the wifi? I figure once BTC passes $50,000 my paranoia will be such that I'll probably get a safe deposit box. What do you think? Safe? Would it be safer than a password protected USB stick, if there is such a thing?

in this scenario, i'd be more concerned about device/hard drive failure than anything else. you would definitely want to back up your seed on multiple devices, then encrypt them. and then you would probably want to keep them in different physical locations -- places where you are sure they won't be stolen and picked over. e.g. your house, your mom's house, your work desk, locked in a drawer.

there are password-protected USBs and hard drives but they generally use pretty weak encryption. there are no great answers here. paper copy in a fire-proof safe with two encrypted copies of the wallet on USB, etc. stored in two different trusted physical places is how I roll.

drgrah

newbie

Activity: 45

Merit: 0

Quote from: Emoclaw on November 26, 2017, 05:08:35 PM

You don't have to do all that, actually that would be less secure. That old iPhone could be stolen and then compromised. The app could have vulnerabilities.
Why not just encrypt the seed using basic text encryption with a password and writing the encrypted string on a paper instead?
It's basically what you're trying to accomplish but without any concerns of hardware failure.

Notepad++ allows you to encrypt text using different algorithms directly from the UI using a plugin called NppCrypt.

...Or you could get a hardware wallet.

I already have a Trezor hardware wallet, which is secure-ish in itself. But I'm talking about the backup seeds, which I filled out on a card. But the backup card is as good as cash if someone finds it - is it not?
Yeah, the app might have vulnerabilities. But even the FBI has trouble getting into iPhones, so why would that not be more secure is what I'm asking? I guess the real question is if I keep the phone offline from now on, nobody can hack it through the internet, and if someone physically gets it, it would still be harder to get the seeds than if someone physically gets my written down seed card.

Emoclaw

sr. member

Activity: 420

Merit: 251

You don't have to do all that, actually that would be less secure. That old iPhone could be stolen and then compromised. The app could have vulnerabilities.
Why not just encrypt the seed using basic text encryption with a password and writing the encrypted string on a paper instead?
It's basically what you're trying to accomplish but without any concerns of hardware failure.

Notepad++ allows you to encrypt text using different algorithms directly from the UI using a plugin called NppCrypt.

...Or you could get a hardware wallet.

MiningSensei

hero member

Activity: 766

Merit: 509

The only good way to protect your funds is just by investing some money on buying a Trezor or a Nano Ledger wallet.

It is impossible for someone to break your own security because you must click a button in order to be able to send funds, and this make it complicated for all the hackers who are always trying to find more victims.

Maybe you are thinking that this is just a waste of money, but even if you lost your offline wallet, you can easily recover it by just buying another one, because your bitcoins are offline.

It is better to invest some money but you know that you are never going to lose those funds instead of having them on coinbase, or blockchain wallet.

drgrah

newbie

Activity: 45

Merit: 0

So I'm not completely comfortable with having my seeds stored on paper in my house. I'm no more comfortable than I would be having a pile of cash stored in a drawer. I was wondering if this would be safe, or safer?: Take an old iPhone, disconnect it from the internet and store the seed in a password protected app on the phone? At least if someone found it, they would have to get past 2 more security levels (the fingerprint unlock and then the password app code). Knowing that the phone in the past has been connected to the internet, would it be safe if I turned off the wifi? I figure once BTC passes $50,000 my paranoia will be such that I'll probably get a safe deposit box. What do you think? Safe? Would it be safer than a password protected USB stick, if there is such a thing?

Topic: seed storage (Read 325 times)