Topic: Seeking 30-100 BTC loan 12 months 10% interest, good credit and high income (Read 1907 times)

Perfect loan request.

ALTERNATE PROPOSAL based on input from Vod, KWH, and others + idea from smcraver to use gold coins, here is an alternative offer that may be easier for folks to do.

TERMS:

1) Each loan would be for 10 BTC or more.  I would like up to 100 BTC total, but with this structure I can break that into several 10 BTC (or more) separate loans (though anyone who is interested in more, it is easier to have only one loan so my preference is still for larger but I don't need or want more than a total of 100 BTC).  

2) Each loan would be secured at least 100% by American Gold Eagle or Gold Buffalo Bullion Coins as collateral that I will purchase.  The coins will be sealed and certified by a recognized certification organization such as PCGS that allows online verification.  For each BTC loan, I will pledge such bullion coins having a value in troy gold ounces (determined by the XAU spot market 7 day moving average of XAU (gold ounce) closing prices as reported in the Wall Street Journal or other reliable reporting service) at least 110% of the value of the BTC (determined by the same 7 day moving average of the bitstamp rate or other major exchange). NOTE that since the coins are worth more than their weight in gold (esp certified coins), the real collateral protection is greater.

3) BTC and coins will be delivered to a respected escrow member of this board who is listed on the escrow list and has experience with large transaction, who is designated by the lender.  In the event that the escrow member loses the coins, or they are stolen after being placed in escrow, melted in a fire, eaten by animals, etc. or just absconds with the gold the loan is forgiven.  I will pay reasonable escrow fees directly to escrow member designated by the lender.

4) Escrow BTC loan released to me as soon as coins are received in escrow.

5) 10% annualized interest, compounded daily on basis of 365 days

6) Repayment:

I am willing to agree to repay in BTC (preferred) OR will repay in U.S. dollars or Euros, lender's choice

If repayments are in fiat, will use 7 day moving average of closing price (same method as for collateral requirement), as of payment due date as conversion rate

If repayment in fiat:
first payment due in 6 months will include accrued interest for 6 months, plus 1/6 of principal.
Thereafter, payments of 1/6 of principal plus accrued interest for one month will be due each month

If repayment in BTC:
first payment due one month after funding, and will include 1/12 of principal plus interest for month

Early repayment is permitted without penalty

7) Late payment penalty

If payment is not made within 5 days of due date, interest added to principal plus an additional late fee of 0.01 BTC per day per 10 BTC loan, in addition to accruing interest on the higher principal balance
2 late payments in a row, or 3 late payments over the life of the loan, will be a default and all funds will be due then immediately (principal and interest and late fees).  This will be grounds for releasing the escrow to lender.  Lender will agree to sell coins in excess of loan principal, interest and fees due and return to me any excess value, less selling expenses.

Collateral requirement adjustments:  The goal is to keep at least 90% and no more than 120% of the outstanding unpaid balance due in gold bullion collateral  (all values determined as above for initial collateral requirement but using then-current values for gold and BTC prices) in escrow.  ADJUST DOWN: If the the value of the collateral exceeds 120% of the outstanding balance due, and if the excess collateral value can be reduced to not less than 110% by the release of one or more of the coins in escrow, then the parties agree to instruct the escrow member to release such coins to me as will reduce the collateral held to less than 120% (but not less than 110%).   ADJUST UP: If the value of the collateral drops to less than 90% of the outstanding balance due, then I will add such gold coins to the escrow in order to bring the collateral value up to 110%.  Adjustments will only need to be made if requested by the other party and confirmed by market data provided by the requesting member.

9) Coins will be returned to me (insured shipping at my cost) as soon as outstanding balance and charges and interest are paid in full.

If interested please PM me.  I bought my first set of coins today (American Buffalo).  I can only buy $5,000 at a time so the 10 BTC loan idea is probably best for now, till I build up enough coins for a larger loan.

EDIT:

If loan is more than 25 BTC, I will be open to putting the gold coins into a lockbox/deposit box located in any major U.S. city, which box would require both keys (lender keeps one key, I keep one key) to open rather than escrow.

I am also still willing (and prefer) to do the loan without collateral (but with full documentation as discussed above), or using the miners as collateral and will agree to a higher interest rate in that case (12.5%) since it will save me the escrow fee, shipping, insurance and heartburn.

EDIT2:

The escrow member must be located in the United States.  Otherwise, I am pretty sure I cannot ship that much gold across the border without all kinds of paperwork, and cost of international insurance would be prohibitive in any case.

That would probably work, at first glance. I would make sure the escrow is fully vetted and details proven in real life.

How about this:

I will buy gold coins from the mint using my credit cards, and put them in escrow with someone as collateral for the loan.  That way, I can legitimately say that the coins I bought are still mine if asked and that I bought them as investments, but the BTC lender is fully secured. 

Would that work?  My only concern with this is finding really, really trustworthy escrow member here that (a) is willing to hold that much gold coin, and (b) has the reputation and history of handling large transactions so we both (lender and I) know we can trust him or her with so much money over a longer time period (at least 6 months), and (c) can keep them safe.   

Is there someone like that that folks would trust with $15-50K gold coins for 6-12 months?  That makes me pretty nervous even for escrow members that I have done several transactions with.

Or, what if I put the coins into a safe deposit box that requires 2 keys, so that BOTH the lender and I have to be present to open the box?  I can travel to the lender's location (within reasonable flight or drive distance in the U.S. or Canada at least) and deposit locally to the lender.

Would anyone want to do a loan on this basis? 

+1 thank you for the idea!  I still prefer a loan here as it is totally off the books that she will see, but in a pinch this could be workable.  I didn't know there was a market for gold coins here or that you could buy gold with a credit card ... cool.

A bank loan still goes into my account, and spending from my bank account still gets unwanted attention.  I tried that last time around, and the judge did not give one wit of care for the fact that my "wasteful" spending was from borrowed money.  I know this makes no sense, but I am just trying to work around what I see as a very unfair and illogical situation.  Using a BTC loan, no money ever hits my bank account, so there is nothing for her to see when I spend (borrowed) BTC to buy miners.

1) Buy gold coins from the US mint with your credit card(s).

2) Sell the gold coins on the forum for BTC.

3) Buy your miners and fill up your racks!

4) Sell BTC on local bitcoins for cash.

5) Convert cash to money orders.

6) Pay off Credit Cards with money orders.

If you have these types of collateral on hand, good credit, provable income, why not apply for a bank or title loan? Easier, faster and probably cheaper in the long run. Win/win for you.

I guess I can add my reason for wanting the loan, as that may help folks understand.

My ex is seeking to increase her alimony (which FWIW is already about $200K per year).  If the ex sees that I am spending 50k+ on mining hardware, I am 100% sure that she is going to give that to the judge and say that if I can "waste" $50K on "frivolous" computer purchases like mining hardware (the ex will have no clue what it is, except that its discretionary spending) .. then "certainly" I could pay her that much more too.  She has made these arguments in the past successfully and I know its coming if I don't find some way to finance this out of sight of the ex and without using my current assets at least until the hearing determines if she gets an increase.

What I want to do is not to be deceitful to the court, but at the same time avoid the fallacious (but very effective) argument that I know she is going to make.  If I use borrowed money to buy the units now and replace the money I took from my corporation with the borrowed money, I repay the loan with my own money sans alimony **after** the court hearing, then she doesn't ever know about my mining machine purchases.  My cash situation will be as it was before I started placing orders and she won't even see that I bought the miners (which is not deceiving her or the court, because she *will* see more cash in my account; but for some reason it is the spending on computer equipment that the court likes to focus on as evidence that I should pay her more, not that I have cash on hand - which is why I say its a fallacious argument).

That is also why I cannot do a pawn shop type collateral pledge with my current assets... but I am willing to get very creative if someone can help me out and I am willing to give collateral in the miners and to satisfy any lender that there is plenty of money to repay after the hearing is over, and that there is no way (my death or grave injury) that I would default on this especially given my professional license. 

I am very open to any ideas.  For example, maybe there is a way I could transfer ownership of the pre-orders to the lender, and transfer my existing units to the lender.  I would still mine with the units, but I would not have physical access to them at all (keycard and rack go to lender until paid).   This would probably require meeting live to setup the keycard lockout, but I am willing to travel too.   I have some assets I could pledge if it came to that (a few expensive guitars for example) but really I think it won't be necessary once you have my information and vet me and have my full information.

Also, to Vod and others: I do not fault you for rooting out scammers and I know you are highly skeptical which is good.  I have been scammed out of $20,000 on mining pre-orders (more if you count BFL) and got taken on one scam groupbuy, so I appreciate it when folks like you are there to ask the right questions.  My situation is unique (I know, they all are!) and I will do anything you ask (in confidence) to prove I am legit and that what I am saying is true.

What do you want to know, maybe I will be okay with it.  In the end though, if I was making the loan, the information I would really want would be things I could not possibly post there: my name, job and references; credit histories and the three bureau credit reports; copies of paystubs; copies of my last loan (unsecured) loan agreements... I *will* provide all of this to someone who is reputable and seriously interested in doing this, but obviously not here.  I can give you a hundred reasons publicly why this is a low risk loan, but in the end its the proof that anyone serious is going to care about, not my words. 

Err, why can't you just post it on the thread? Obviously, there's been members that have posted private info.

That is provably false.  I can point to many folks in my profession whose licenses are suspended or terminated for financial malfeasance of much less seriousness.  Being an officer in the military is not the same thing as being in a licensed profession, where anyone can send a complaint which results in a state run investigation.  Saying reputation is important is not the same thing as saying that financial malfeasance is grounds for losing one's license.  And did anyone check his or her credit score?  Or his income?

In any event, I don't want to continue to argue about this especially since I am hobbled by the fact that I cannot give you more info.  I already agreed to provide collateral , though not of the pawn shop variety that you seem to be insisting on, it is still collateral and would be subject to a valid and enforceable security interest.

If you are willing and able to give me the loan, PM me your info and I will call you and give you whatever additional personal information you want.  If you aren't satisfied that what I am saying is true, you don't have any obligation to lend (though I expect you would keep my info confidential in any case).  If you are here just to harass, then please quit.  No one is forcing anyone to lend BTC to me.  If someone is interested, they will PM me and verify me.  Otherwise they won't.  Both of us have better things to do with our afternoon. 

We already had someone use that angle.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/hydroponica-111001

It was known he was a corporal in the Canadian Forces, and he talked about how he would lose his job if he even defaulted on a loan.  He bragged up and down how important his reputation was to him.  Guess what?  He defaulted and nothing happened.  No one did a thing.

Same thing would happen with you.  People aren't going to bother legal action.  That's what they simply want a guarantee you will pay back in the form of collateral.

So, no, refusing to pay won't cost you a thing.  That's why you won't get this loan without collateral.   

High income and good credit score are actually the best indicators of repayment you could possibly have (absent collateral, which I have also said I would provide in addition).  Why would I risk my professional reputation and job, and my credit score (and my ability to obtain future loans from real banks) ... to make few bucks off a scam that would be a small fraction of my income??!  Refusing to pay and defaulting on a written promissory note would cost me my job and all of my future income.  I am in a regulated trade where evidence of financial malfeasance would cost me my license and not only my current job and income but also all future jobs in this profession.  It would never be worth it.   

As far as suing me if such a thing did happen, why wouldn't you?  With a written promissory note in standard form, which includes a "debtor pays fees" clause, I would have to pay your attorneys fees.  And getting judgment on a defaulted promissory note is incredibly easy and not that expensive anyway.  For a loan of this size, and given my income, most collection lawyers would take this on contingency in a heartbeat.

Finally, you would have the keys to the server cabinets and the ability to shut me out and take control of the miners on default.

I am not saying this is 100% risk free.  If it was I wouldn't need to pay interest other than time value of money which is very low right now.  I think that I can demonstrate with documentation to a lender that is interested that the real risks though are limited to (1) loss of my job, and (2) my death or serious disabling injury making it impossible to work.  And even then you would probably be able to collect though you may have to hire a lawyer to do so in those cases depending whether i am alive or dead, and mentally capable or not.  Still pretty remote possibilities.

Obviously someone who doesn't have the time or desire to verify all of my information would not want to do this loan.  It isn't for everyone or maybe not even for anyone.  I was hoping that there is someone with extra bitcoins who would be able to assess the risk involved, and would have the ability to check out my credentials and documentation.  If there is such a person, this is a good loan to make for that person.  It is not a good loan to make for someone who is not willing to check me out fully, and who relies solely on pawn shop type lending (e.g., where collateral having a value much greater than the loan is held).  This is a commercial loan request on commercial terms for a commercially minded lender, if such exists.

If no such person exists on this forum, then I won't get a loan.  I have other non-BTC alternatives, but thought it would be good to try here first.

But proving you have a certain income and good credit score doesn't mean you will pay back the loan.
People on this forum are not banks, why would anyone lend you this amount of Bitcoins without any certainty that you will pay it back.

Sure, they could take legal action against you if you do not pay back, but in reality very few people would actually do this.

Interesting, but your are wrong at least in the United States.   Art 9 of the Unifrom Commercial Code (specifically 9-102(a)(12)) defines collateral broadly as any "property subject to a security interest".  A security interest is created by a security agreement and attaches upon execution of agreement, payment of loan value to debtor and identification of property subject to lien (See generally 9-102(a)(73), 9-201, 9-202 and 9-203).

Using lockboxes and third party storage facilities where inventory is held subject to lien and lenders' rights is a VERY common way to ensure easy enforcement of a security interest BUT the security interest is valid and enforceable even without such an arrangement.  And collateral is collateral regardless of whether held by lender or borrower.

Note that this would be a purchase money security interest as to future mining hardware, and that gives a creditor enhanced rights under the UCC also.

Again, not that any of this is needed but I am willing to provide the collateral.  I can prove to a lender that is serious that I my income and credit are more than enough to make repayment an extremely low risk proposition.  I will provide easily verifiable income for last 4 years which is in excess of 15x what I am seeking here.  I will provide copies of past signature loans (no collateral) with major banks that are in excess of $200,000 with 12 month repayment and low interest.  If a banking institution will consider this a low risk loan, that should give a lot of comfort that it really is such. 

That is not collateral unless you are willing to physcially ship the racks to the lender.

You simply pledging the miners is not collateral. 

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/edu-the-rule-of-no-collateral-no-loan-ignore-at-your-own-risk-577765

As I have two racks (one currently occupied and one adjacent rack being held for me pending receipt of hardware), I would be willing to put my miners up as collateral also if the loan was large enough (e.g., closer to 100BTC than 30BTC) to make it worth the trouble of creating all of the paperwork that would be required.  I think the easiest way would be to transfer the racks to the lender's name, and pledge the miners that are in the racks as collateral.  We would then have a management agreement where I would have sole access to the racks during the loan term so long as loan not in default.  Since lender would own the rack lease, in default lender could revoke my access to the racks and take the miners.  I would keep 100% collateral in the racks (based on current prices for miners not counting depreciation), and as loan principal is paid down I could remove miners from racks to my own racks.

This seems really complicated, and as I said above once you know my financial details and situation, it really won't be necessary but it would be a good faith gesture if someone is really focused on collateral.

You really can't make that judgment without knowing financial details, which I won't disclose here in public.  I get signature loans every year from international established banks with no collateral required well in excess of what I am requesting here, and for lower interest rates as well.

As I said, it is very low risk and I am willing to document but not in public.

What you have described is considered a high risk loan.

A low risk will be one where you provide sufficient collateral.

I'm sorry to say, but without collateral you will not get this loan.   

As indicated, I am looking for loan of 30-100 BTC, which I would need in the next month, but the sooner the better.

I am upgrading my hashers very substantially (currently I have a little over 3 Th/s; will increase to 9 Gh/s in May; and 16 Th/s by the end of August with miners already paid for... I am also seeking to get that up higher to fill out two racks I have at a data center).  I will use the funds to (1) re-finance/fund the already paid for miners (money borrowed from my corporate account, wholly owned corp but I really should put money back in), and (2) to buy new miners.

This is a very low risk loan, and I will provide the lender with sufficient documentation to prove that statement.  I have more than enough income to just buy the equipment with fiat, and I have over 100K in available credit just on my credit cards.  My credit score varies between 675 and the low 700s (a few late payments over several years but not many, and a couple of medical bill disputes but nothing else).

So why am I seeking a loan with all that cash and credit available to me?  I have very good reasons, but would prefer to discuss privately.  For someone who is serious and willing and able to lend at this level, I **will** verify my employment (long term, very stable, high income), income and provide you with a credit report.  And I will disclose my reasons so you will know I am not doing anything illegal. 

BASIC TERMS (open to any reasonable alternatives):

Payment to me must be in BTC

I am willing to agree to repay in BTC (preferred) OR will repay in U.S. dollars or Euros, lender's choice

If repayments are in fiat, will use preev 7 day trailing average of the buy/sell price average, as of payment due date as conversion rate (or other determinable and reliable conversion is okay)

I will sign a promissory note using a standard form

10% annualized interest, compounded daily on basis of 365 days (I would also accept a variable interest rate that equals 10% today)

If repayment in fiat:
first payment due in 6 months will include accrued interest for 6 months, plus 1/6 of principal.
Thereafter, payments of 1/6 of principal plus accrued interest for one month will be due each month

If repayment in BTC:
first payment due one month after funding, and will include 1/12 of principal plus interest for month
I am willing to agree to point 50% of my mining (once I receive rigs and have them up and running obviously) to the repayment address so that the mining goes directly to repayment; however, interest calculation under this scheme would be kind of hard and we would need some kind of program to keep track of BTC rates, mining profits paid and interest accrued daily .. probably more trouble than its worth but thought I would throw out the idea.

Thus repayment term total is 12 months

If payment is not made within 5 days of due date, interest added to principal plus an additional late fee of 0.01 BTC per day, in addition to accruing interest on the higher principal balance
2 late payments in a row, or 3 late payments over the life of the loan, will be a default and all funds will be due then immediately (principal and interest and late fees).  Default interest rate will be 20% annualized thereafter, and lender will be entitled to attorneys fees if required to collect (believe me it won't be required and I can prove it, but these are pretty standard commercial terms and I want lender to know I am not looking for a better than market terms ..)