Self Exclusion on a National Basis, Australia 🦘

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

Gambling means that includes online casinos, some casinos like Stake are already doing this, but that does not mean that the gambler who chooses to exclude himself from one casino, cannot play on other casinos, he still can, if he has accounts on five casinos he can exclude himself to one casino who he thinks is not giving him good luck and play on other casinos, majority of gamblers have an account on at least five casinos, so it kinda worthless to me when it comes to online platforms.

_act_

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Quote from: LodisMcguire on July 02, 2022, 03:57:57 AM

It depends on the player though,so it would be hard to do it themselves because it's not easy to avoid addiction.This self exclusion feature is already implemented in some casinos,but is it effective? If they really want to solve the gambling problem issue,they should ban casinos and other gambling platform in their country.

To ban gambling is not the way out when there are better solutions

That is true, even if self exclusion is applied on one gambling platform, the gambler can go to another gambling platform to play, this is possible and likely what will happen. What I even noticed, the gambling sites are not that helping, self exclusion can be temporary or permanent, it is even possible on some gambling sites disable it, very possible because everything to avoid money loss or addiction on gambling platforms can easily be disabled by the gambler himself, but this can also be handled by case to case.

Mandatory self exclusion and digital identity can help in a way the gambling sites will not take permanent self exclusion an easy case, it has to be permanent in a way the gambler can never revoke it anymore. Also digital identity in a way gambling platforms in a country and possibly in the world will work together to make use of a digital identity to link just a single gambler across all betting platforms, so if self exclusion is enabled, the gambler will not be able to gamble on other gambling platform any longer.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country
...

It depends on the player though,so it would be hard to do it themselves because it's not easy to avoid addiction.This self exclusion feature is already implemented in some casinos,but is it effective? If they really want to solve the gambling problem issue,they should ban casinos and other gambling platform in their country.

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Self-exclusion works only for licensed land casinos and its online platform. It doesn't work in ALL online platforms, especially offshore casinos, so it won't stop problem gambling from playing. I play every week with VPN and didn't do KYC on my accounts.... so practically they can still open accounts with VPN like I did.
It's only a virtue signalling propaganda stunt, thus affects nothing.

aioc

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

We'll have to see how effective is this, this is something new if effective it could be implemented by other countries and make this as their model, but permanent self-exclusion should be coupled with help coming from professionals if they want to really curb gambling addiction, you cannot trust compulsive gambling alone doing permanent self-exclusion, he'll only find a way when the temptation to gamble comes in.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.
Thoughts?

You just said earlier that all platforms are included. This could be better than the normal exclusion system where one site is only covered but it's still up to gamblers if they will do this. I think they will think many times and maybe they will not do it all since they know that they can not play gambling ever again.

It's also hard to completely stop your addiction in one go and this could cause a bad effect to your mind and physical health but would it be better if it's done slowly or step by step. For the countries that allows vpn, didn't they have any country restrictions? Because, I think it doesn't make sense if they have it and then they will just allow vpn for someone to bypass it.

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Quote from: coolcoinz on June 30, 2022, 06:52:18 AM

Quote from: KTChampions on June 29, 2022, 04:40:23 PM

I realized that there are a lot of idiots in Australia when I saw their covid concentration camps and their insane covid restrictions. This initiative also smacks of totalitarianism. I do not understand this logic - for the sake of separate idiots who themselves cannot cope with their problems, they want to totalitarianly tell everyone how to behave and how to conduct business? Crap ideas. I understand the problems of addicts but when it turns this way I become extremely intolerant.

Canada is acting in a very similar way. We all knew about China and how things are there with their full control over people, public executions and constant denial of freedoms, but I used to think that Australia and Canada are democracies.

As for the self exclusion it makes not much sense because they clearly state that it's going to be forced upon Australian casinos. What about those situated abroad? How is that going to stop people from gambling? IMO nobody forces anyone to gamble. If they want to do it they will and no additional options and boxes to tick will stop them.

In Canada, everything went according to a bad scenario too, you're right. And now, as a consequence of this, citizens are being deprived of the right to weapons - the country has every chance of turning into a totalitarian garbage dump if citizens do not fight against the infringement of their rights. At the moment, Canada is still a democracy, but it is not clear how long it can remain so.

danherbias07

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That's new which I think is cool and might help to prevent gambling addiction.

Quote

“Once you choose to self-exclude, it will be an offence for a licensed wagering provider to open an account for you, take a bet from you or to market gambling services to you. The ACMA will be enforcing those rules.”

I like the idea and whoever did this did a lot of thinking before it was passed to the officials. Self-exclusion.
The only thing that worries me is, will the gambling addict (for example) goes forward to register his name. There will be issues like "I don't want anyone to know I am a gambling addict/or just basically a gambler.", that kind of thing. Perhaps the registration should also be private for them to participate in this.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

What do you think about the news ?

self-exclusion is probably the first step taken by ACMA and I really appreciate it. This is great for reducing gambling activity for someone who wants to quit by blocking himself. In addition, the Australian Federal Agency has the power to set standards on advertising and consumer protection. I think this is a good idea and can follow up on online gambling parties who don't comply.

Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

according to news sources self-exclusion is intended for people who want to change their gambling habits or addictions.

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Quote from: Boristhecat on June 30, 2022, 07:57:44 AM

Quote from: Wexnident on June 30, 2022, 07:06:40 AM

In the end Self-exclusion relies on the gambler themselves personally starting or initiating it though. It is probably an additional help since afaik, some casinos don't exactly offer a self-exclusion program so with this, it can help a lot for gamblers who are willing to undergo the program but originally had no option to do so.

I still stand by the idea that there should be a central organization for gambling casinos so that self-exclusion programs like this can be done not just in a country scale, but globally. That way, there's no loophole that users can use to bypass the self-exclusion they themselves set. Though this would most likely involve KYC so that they aren't able to create new accounts though.

Do you want to get into a global dystopia where a single world manager will allow or prohibit something for you? I don't understand why you have such a poor imagination that you can't mentally model what it will lead to in the end. After all, there are many books about dystopias, have you read them? There, too, it all started with good intentions.

Exactly. This will make a gambler surrender all his data to an authority that eventually will make him a slave. If anyone have a gambling problem, just go to a rehabilitation and theraphy. You dont need to ask the casino or the government to treat you.

Its all up to you already to treat yourself with the help of the therapist.

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Quote from: Wexnident on June 30, 2022, 07:06:40 AM

In the end Self-exclusion relies on the gambler themselves personally starting or initiating it though. It is probably an additional help since afaik, some casinos don't exactly offer a self-exclusion program so with this, it can help a lot for gamblers who are willing to undergo the program but originally had no option to do so.

I still stand by the idea that there should be a central organization for gambling casinos so that self-exclusion programs like this can be done not just in a country scale, but globally. That way, there's no loophole that users can use to bypass the self-exclusion they themselves set. Though this would most likely involve KYC so that they aren't able to create new accounts though.

Do you want to get into a global dystopia where a single world manager will allow or prohibit something for you? I don't understand why you have such a poor imagination that you can't mentally model what it will lead to in the end. After all, there are many books about dystopias, have you read them? There, too, it all started with good intentions.

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In the end Self-exclusion relies on the gambler themselves personally starting or initiating it though. It is probably an additional help since afaik, some casinos don't exactly offer a self-exclusion program so with this, it can help a lot for gamblers who are willing to undergo the program but originally had no option to do so.

I still stand by the idea that there should be a central organization for gambling casinos so that self-exclusion programs like this can be done not just in a country scale, but globally. That way, there's no loophole that users can use to bypass the self-exclusion they themselves set. Though this would most likely involve KYC so that they aren't able to create new accounts though.

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Quote from: KTChampions on June 29, 2022, 04:40:23 PM

I realized that there are a lot of idiots in Australia when I saw their covid concentration camps and their insane covid restrictions. This initiative also smacks of totalitarianism. I do not understand this logic - for the sake of separate idiots who themselves cannot cope with their problems, they want to totalitarianly tell everyone how to behave and how to conduct business? Crap ideas. I understand the problems of addicts but when it turns this way I become extremely intolerant.

Canada is acting in a very similar way. We all knew about China and how things are there with their full control over people, public executions and constant denial of freedoms, but I used to think that Australia and Canada are democracies.

As for the self exclusion it makes not much sense because they clearly state that it's going to be forced upon Australian casinos. What about those situated abroad? How is that going to stop people from gambling? IMO nobody forces anyone to gamble. If they want to do it they will and no additional options and boxes to tick will stop them.

KTChampions

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

I realized that there are a lot of idiots in Australia when I saw their covid concentration camps and their insane covid restrictions. This initiative also smacks of totalitarianism. I do not understand this logic - for the sake of separate idiots who themselves cannot cope with their problems, they want to totalitarianly tell everyone how to behave and how to conduct business? Crap ideas. I understand the problems of addicts but when it turns this way I become extremely intolerant.

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Quote from: Davidvictorson on June 29, 2022, 02:03:10 PM

Quote from: carlfebz2 on June 28, 2022, 01:53:57 PM

This one could really be applied effectively on physical casinos/gambling places but not totally on online casinos which people could always have the access if they wanted to thats why its not totally that effective

but at least the government do really shows up some action on fighting or being that in concern about gambling addiction which is something that you cant really see that government do take out some
action in regarding on this manner.

While this is a fantastic news, my concern has been somewhat echoed by other users here. Self-exclusion will work 99.99% okay for online casinos but I doubt if I can say the same for land based casinos. As a matter of fact, it was in the news some weeks ago that the Dutch Gambling Authority was going to investigating some gambling operators for failure to check and prevent players who registered on the Cruks self-exclusion scheme from gaining access control in slot machine arcades¹. I bet we might see some occurrence of this situation in Australia. I hope they can find a way to nip it in the bud before it ever happens.

1. https://casinobeats.com/2022/06/17/ksa-initiates-slot-arcades-investigation-as-role-model-ad-ban-looms/

Well, it does depend on how they would really be that strict on implementing out such ban or prohibition or imposing such laws and regulation on which casino or platforms would really be following on that self exclusion thing and wont really be tending to opposite it.

It might not really able to filter out yet there would be still people who would play despite of that exclusion situation but its really up to someone on how they would really be having an effective
break on playing gambling.

No matter how these platforms will really be avoiding but there are lots of ways on playing again if you wanted to.

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Quote from: carlfebz2 on June 28, 2022, 01:53:57 PM

This one could really be applied effectively on physical casinos/gambling places but not totally on online casinos which people could always have the access if they wanted to thats why its not totally that effective

but at least the government do really shows up some action on fighting or being that in concern about gambling addiction which is something that you cant really see that government do take out some
action in regarding on this manner.

While this is a fantastic news, my concern has been somewhat echoed by other users here. Self-exclusion will work 99.99% okay for online casinos but I doubt if I can say the same for land based casinos. As a matter of fact, it was in the news some weeks ago that the Dutch Gambling Authority was going to investigating some gambling operators for failure to check and prevent players who registered on the Cruks self-exclusion scheme from gaining access control in slot machine arcades¹. I bet we might see some occurrence of this situation in Australia. I hope they can find a way to nip it in the bud before it ever happens.

1. https://casinobeats.com/2022/06/17/ksa-initiates-slot-arcades-investigation-as-role-model-ad-ban-looms/

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The idea is good but what does exclusion mean in the technical sense? It blocks your account, right? Worst case scenario also your IP. So a gambler who loses in touch of enlightenment decides to end with betting and bans himself. A few days later he wants to gamble, comes back, see the account is banned, goes elsewhere, to another casino where his account is still active, or makes a new account.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

Self exclusion is an utter rubbish! Gambling becomes problem gambling only when the gambler is unable to control his gambling habit as he/she lacks the willingness to control the habit. So if someone is lacking the willingness, will he/she self exclude from gambling platforms? Unless their family members are forcing them to self exclude, they wouldn't do it willingly.

Also crypto gambling is global in nature and isn't governed by country specific regulations. So even after the self exclusion, problem gamblers can head towards crypto gambling.

Problem gambling needs medical attention and psychological support. Nothing else can help!

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?

It is a great thing to have a nation that supports a nationwide self-exclusion but I think it is still limited and can easily bypass using VPN if the person in self-exclusion intended to gamble abroad.

Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Well, it should be but I think it will be very difficult because globalization needs to meet each country's standard and every country has a different take when it comes to gambling.

Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Thoughts?

Self-exclusion can only be effective if the person themselves admits that they are a gambling addict. this is the biggest challenge of self-exclusion. Aside from that, a gambler should be able to identify what a gambling addict is. If he can't he cannot admit that he has a gambling disorder so I think a nationwide campaign of gambling disorder awareness should be launched together with the self-exclusion plan.

fiulpro

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People should also remember that, once you complete the form you won't be able to go back, reverse it or go to any casino which is registered in the particular country, there are countries like US, Canada which have strong set of rules. But what can work best would be ofcourse an international self Exclusion that would combine all the countries as well . I will try and include the countries who have self Exclusion available so that people would know who to turn to:
US
UK
Canada
Australia
South Africa
Other than that you can easily use things like GamStop for the online Gambling addiction which can be accessed from anywhere in the world. Overall it would be an effective process if done properly.
You can also read more on the wiki :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-exclusion

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

This is a nice idea and probably it will become a kind of international standard (at least in western countries).
Unfortunately a very addicted gambler will find every time a way to escape from such rule Sad

(likewise playing with other user account or just ask to a friend to place a bet for him). but this is a first step to really fight addiction in gambling.

Of course crypto-gambling sites are excluded from this law... and we know it's very easy bet with crypto .
I just hope this is will not become a "trojan horse" to force KYC even in this field!

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IMO Australia should extend this program on platforms overseas. In this way we can be sure that the gamblers turning themselves in on the self-exclusion program would have no other way but to really keep their gambling addiction to themselves, and be forced to look for a new hobby that doesn't include gambling. I believe the Australian government can do this, and hopefully a collaboration between nations to keep a list of people in self-exclusion program can be made available and be kept safely to curb gambling addiction across the world.

Darker45

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I've always been a fan of self-exclusion. It may not really be a solution to gambling addiction but at least those who feel that they're already doing it too much have an option.

As a matter of fact, in addition to self exclusion, all countries should also implement policies which grant requests from family members that a gambler from their family be banned from casinos. After all, it is really hard to rely on addicted gamblers to voluntarily exclude themselves from casinos.

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This will only work on players that using fiat based casino because it has a mandatory KYC which will be used to identify whether the user self excluded or not but this regulation is useless to non-crypto online casino because there’s no way for them to verify if there player sign the self exclusion or not. I don’t have any idea about the crypto casino status on Australia but this regulation can be easily bypass by addicted gamblers that sign exclusion by seeking alternative crypto casino online which I highly doubt that Australia government can regulate even by there license requirements.

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This feature is really good but for most of the people who gamble with cryptocurrency will not solve anything,they can go to casinos outside the jurisdiction of Australia,register there anonymously and continue to play if they get bored and don't want anymore the self exclusion option.This option though works well to exclude residents of Australia from any fiat casino that operates online in all the Australian territory,it is a good move but it does not solve the gambling problem per se,no one has been able to solve gambling problems and addictions with self exclusion.

The only target group this would be effective is 50-60 year old gamblers who only play in local casinos and are not that tech iterate for playing online,if they use the self exclusion option that is pretty much for them,end of the game.

ipanks

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Frankly, I also like the idea but it will go back to individual gamblers because there will be gamblers who will come back to online casinos easily and we know they can create new accounts that are not linked to their other accounts. It takes awareness from gamblers to exclude themselves from gambling; if they don't really want it, they will return for more. But the idea can help gamblers who want to reduce their time playing gambling and with the program, they can start giving it a try.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country.
<...>
Thoughts?

I didn't know they were so far behind on the issue. In other countries there has been a national database for many years, so if you exclude yourself, you are not allowed to enter any casino in the country.

This serves to some extent but the gambler can always find a way to gamble again. For example in a cryptocurrency casino without KYC.

In the end, those who have problems with gambling have to develop self-control not to gamble or even seek psychological help because all these responsible gambling features, even if they help a little, are not the solution to the problem.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

Do we have the data that support this? I mean does it really stop gambling or minimized the effects and stop addicted gamblers from playing?

The reason I ask is because I don't think it will be effective as it's going to be hard to implement. And then the responsibility, it will be a 3 way party, the gamblers themselves, the gambling casino, and then the regulators or the government. If just one of them didn't participate then this program will be a complete failure, in my opinion.

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when a person is dominated by addiction that person even if he deletes all casino accounts he has, after a few days he will look for other casinos and will create accounts, even if he has to use VPN that person will do it... that's why I think As good as this australian government measure is, it won't be very effective if gambling addicts don't seek medical treatment and relatives don't help so they don't keep giving the addict money. Last month if memory doesn't betray me there was a case of someone here on the forum who was addicted and deleted his account in one of the casinos and then accidentally the casino sent him an email with some promotion and the addicted guy came to complain, maybe this measure of the australia government will be useful in these cases

LTU_btc

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Self exclusion, is it something new? I think that such thing in my country exists for 10 years maybe. It's good thing, but first of all you should understand yourself that you have gambling addiction and it's big problem. Without it, nothing won't help. Same like with other addictions.
But at the same time such register have weak points - it's so easy to bypass it. It only works with casinos registered in that country (Australia in this case). So, you can simply use foreign casinos without any issues. Or crypto casinos, obviously.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

What do you think about the news ?

You know how some casino's are very aggressive in their marketing and don't care about if a user is trying to quit or not, this will put them in check. This development will be most beneficial to individuals who truly want to quit gambling due to personal reasons.

Some people know they really need help and are well aware that they are not disciplined enough or can't help themselves effectively unless being assisted, this program by the government can solve that challenge and be of assistance to them. I like the method indicated by the government on how they intend to be of assistance by going after casinos that try to lure back users who are trying to quit by sending mails offering bonuses to individuals who voluntarily included themselves in the self exclusion list. This will make casinos direct their effort to people who have not opted for self exclusion and let those who have opted for it leave in peace.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

It's good news really, effective self exclusion - like allowing a player to block themselves from a site for 6 months, 1 year or even 5 years should be required for every single gambling site that wants to be responsible. They make plenty enough money as it is and there should be no way to reverse the block until the time runs out. Effective enforcement is required but VPN's do allow a way around it. More countries should act like America in that respect, stating that any gaming operators targeting Australian citizens better comply otherwise they will be prosecuted if they step foot on Australian territory and it has the advantage that it is a desirable place to visit. If every country had this sort of setup then the problem side of gambling would gradually reduce.

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To be honest is only depends on the casino it self.

Since, people in here are playing more often in "Online-casino" and only a few casino have a feature with "self-Exclusion". Another things problem, online gambling activity are really hard to "self-exclusion" because the person still can coming back by un-blocking the site, register with new account or playing in other site.

IMO, still hard.

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Quote from: fiulpro on June 28, 2022, 01:50:01 PM

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

This one could really be applied effectively on physical casinos/gambling places but not totally on online casinos which people could always have the access if they wanted to thats why its not totally that effective

but at least the government do really shows up some action on fighting or being that in concern about gambling addiction which is something that you cant really see that government do take out some
action in regarding on this manner.It might not really be that efficient or fully effective in terms of stopping addiction but at least this is a good initiative.

Exclusions are options if someone do really want to take some break but the best thing or weapon to have on fighting addiction is on how you would gonna control yourself.

fiulpro

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Australia have just announced a plan where the players would be able to exclude themselves temporarily or permanently from all the gambling platforms in the country. Which I do think is really amazing since it can help control the problem gambling in the country they already have loads of complains as well.

https://www.gamblinginsider.com/news/16954/new-self-exclusion-register-to-launch-in-australia

What do you think about the news ?
Should it include other platforms as well since most of the players know that there are casinos which uses VPN and they would still be able to access it there. But I overall like the idea to control the whole Gambling addiction.

Thoughts?

Topic: Self Exclusion on a National Basis, Australia 🦘 (Read 252 times)