Author

Topic: Server Seed change. Let's decide on this once and for all. (Read 278 times)

legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
For the sake of the experiment I just visited 3 sites with dice games, changed my client seeds there, and performed 1 roll with the new seed pair:
You're right, I forgot about the client seed for those.

Quote
How could they know the outcome in advance, if I just changed the client seed to whatever I wanted?

Or, by "crash site" you mean a site of another kind?
Yes, "crash sites" use the same random numbers for all users. This thread explains how it works for Bustabit. In short: there is no client seed, as all clients get the same result at the same time.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
It might make sense to look at future games, to check if that's the motivation for the new hash chain (or the timing of the release of it).
Oh yes, that's a good point. It could be that the players were due for a good green streak, and so you've decided to switch to a new random sequence.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. How is it possible for a site to know that players are "due for a good green streak" when the future client seeds are unknown?

A crash site doesn't have client seeds. They create a "chain" of (for instance) 10 million hashes, and each hash can be checked after the draw. The site knows months ahead which seeds are coming.

For the sake of the experiment I just visited 3 sites with dice games, changed my client seeds there, and performed 1 roll with the new seed pair:

1. PrimeDice



2. CryptoGames



3. FortuneJack



How could they know the outcome in advance, if I just changed the client seed to whatever I wanted?

Or, by "crash site" you mean a site of another kind?
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
It might make sense to look at future games, to check if that's the motivation for the new hash chain (or the timing of the release of it).
Oh yes, that's a good point. It could be that the players were due for a good green streak, and so you've decided to switch to a new random sequence.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. How is it possible for a site to know that players are "due for a good green streak" when the future client seeds are unknown?
A crash site doesn't have client seeds. They create a "chain" of (for instance) 10 million hashes, and each hash can be checked after the draw. The site knows months ahead which seeds are coming.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2270
But for others to calm down regarding this issue wouldn't it be better if the site was able to see only a hashed version of the client seed?
I don't think that is possible.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
And yet many gamblers believe that their previous lost bets were "wasted" if the server seed was changed before their reaching the target.
Gambler's fallacy and all that...

Yes, but the site couldn't know the future outcomes without knowing the future client seeds and targets, right?
That is correct.

I'll take bitvest's provably fair system (unchanged server seed, unchanged client seed and nonce) as an example:





If I am not mistaking, site knows server seed and client seed is visible to everyone so they know all future outcomes, in that case it is possible to predict result and change seed before player "hits big", but, as I said, they will reveal server seed then and it won't be so hard for someone to run script and see whether gambling site did it purposely.

If site doesn't use nonce and/or player change client seed before each bet there is no chance for site to know result, only way is to rig result itself, but that is also something player can verify (like it was case when player caught luckygames rigging the result). (Keep in mind that site will always give you hashed server seed before you give your (client) seed, it just leaves very little space for cheating)

Yes, that's right, in fact, they can't cheat without risking of getting caught, if they use provably fair system on their site.

Now, we all know that in reality we rarely change our client seed, and we are definitely not changing it during an autotbet session, when only nonce is being changed, which can be easily taken into account by the site for predicting future results. So, theoretically it could be possible for a gambling site to change the server seed right before a big win should occur according to prediction. Now I see that technically it's possible. But for that to happen you need to program your site that way, right? If you are the owner you should give the respective order to the coder. Would a reputable gambling site risk its reputation by giving such orders? I personally don't think so. But for others to calm down regarding this issue wouldn't it be better if the site was able to see only a hashed version of the client seed?
legendary
Activity: 2366
Merit: 1512
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
Isn't the chance to hit x is always reset every time you roll the dice?  So the possibility is always the same since it does not accumulate.

Same with server seed I don't think that it has something to do on hitting something.  It is just to refresh the session.  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here.

Yes but the chance on consecutive rolls can be calculated.

Simple example:

If you have a coin you can hit X or Y on 1st roll 50-50%.
On second roll you can hit again X or Y 50-50% again but the odds in consecutive rolls it's changed.

After a big number of rolls like 100000 rolls it's very probable that you have at least 1 time "X".
This is called variance .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2270
And yet many gamblers believe that their previous lost bets were "wasted" if the server seed was changed before their reaching the target.
Gambler's fallacy and all that...

Yes, but the site couldn't know the future outcomes without knowing the future client seeds and targets, right?
That is correct.

I'll take bitvest's provably fair system (unchanged server seed, unchanged client seed and nonce) as an example:





If I am not mistaking, site knows server seed and client seed is visible to everyone so they know all future outcomes, in that case it is possible to predict result and change seed before player "hits big", but, as I said, they will reveal server seed then and it won't be so hard for someone to run script and see whether gambling site did it purposely.

If site doesn't use nonce and/or player change client seed before each bet there is no chance for site to know result, only way is to rig result itself, but that is also something player can verify (like it was case when player caught luckygames rigging the result). (Keep in mind that site will always give you hashed server seed before you give your (client) seed, it just leaves very little space for cheating)
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
But that's not how it is, right?
No, each bet is pretty much random. Purpose of provably fair system isn't to increase chance to win or to guarantee win within X rolls, it is verification system to make sure gambling site doesn't cheat.

It is just some players see that gambling site is provably fair, has nonce and all that, and then they expect to win because "nothing has changed except nonce" but the thing is, when nonce goes from 1 to 2, everything changes and it is new bet which gives player equally the same chance to win just like previous (and next) bet, the same goes for new server or client seed.

That's exactly what I meant! (Sorry, if I didn't formulate it clearly enough.) Each outcome is random, and you always have the same chances of rolling this or that number, regardless of whether or not the server seed is constant. And yet many gamblers believe that their previous lost bets were "wasted" if the server seed was changed before their reaching the target. That's what I wanted to discuss here.



Do you agree that the frustration of a player(who needs to make thousands rolls for achieving his/her goal) about suddenly changed server seed is absolutely unjustified?
Well, if we talk about provably fair system with server seed, client seed and nonce, those players can always verify all future bets which never happened because site changed server seed and see if some of future bets would have been winning one.

Yes, but the site couldn't know the future outcomes without knowing the future client seeds and targets, right?
legendary
Activity: 2842
Merit: 1253
Cashback 15%
~snipped

Canche to hit 10000 after x rolls, you can't ever reach 100%

~Snipped


Isn't the chance to hit x is always reset every time you roll the dice?  So the possibility is always the same since it does not accumulate.

Same with server seed I don't think that it has something to do on hitting something.  It is just to refresh the session.  Feel free to correct me if I am wrong here.
legendary
Activity: 2366
Merit: 1512
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
I don't understand this part. Can you please elaborate a bit more?

I meant the seed is needed for verification in a large scale of numbers.
Ideally you need to be able to verify an infinite number of games and see the stats.

If in a site where they do not cheat cause everything has been verified on the past or can be verified if you want in any moment, you can chance seeds every roll or the server can change the seed you if you decide to do so and you will get the same winning ratio.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 2270
But that's not how it is, right?
No, each bet is pretty much random. Purpose of provably fair system isn't to increase chance to win or to guarantee win within X rolls, it is verification system to make sure gambling site doesn't cheat.

It is just some players see that gambling site is provably fair, has nonce and all that, and then they expect to win because "nothing has changed except nonce" but the thing is, when nonce goes from 1 to 2, everything changes and it is new bet which gives player equally the same chance to win just like previous (and next) bet, the same goes for new server or client seed.

Do you agree that the frustration of a player(who needs to make thousands rolls for achieving his/her goal) about suddenly changed server seed is absolutely unjustified?
Well, if we talk about provably fair system with server seed, client seed and nonce, those players can always verify all future bets which never happened because site changed server seed and see if some of future bets would have been winning one.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
Everything depends on if the server is trusted or not. Every roll is independent of the previous and your chance to hit a roll is always the same.
I suggest to discuss only provably fair games here(preferably dice). If the game itself can't be trusted, the question about server seed change is meaningless.
It depends who changes the server seed: if the host decides to change it, they might have had a reason to do so. If the user decides to change it, the server could still give a seed that's bad for the way you're playing. However, they also risk you changing your strategy after using a new seed, so that's a risky thing to do.
~

But you're not obligated to accept the seed site is giving you. You can write any seed you want yourself, and the site will be able to see only a hashed version of it. So, if it can't be cracked by a dictionary attack, you are pretty safe. Am I right?

Overall I knew that land-based slots were programmed to return from 80% to 98% to players every 1 million or 10 million bets. There are even laws and regulations regarding the minimum payout, that are different in different jurisdictions.

But, AFAIUI, there is no such thing for a provably fair online gambling sites. Nothing is "programmed" there to return, say, 99% of the wagered money to players. It just happens on its own when billions of bets are made: a site earns 1%, or whatever its house edge is, of the wagered amount. But that's not because the game was programmed that way, rather it's because such result is statistically expected. That's what surprises me is that some gamblers treat provably fair dice games as if they were land-based slots.


It might make sense to look at future games, to check if that's the motivation for the new hash chain (or the timing of the release of it).
Oh yes, that's a good point. It could be that the players were due for a good green streak, and so you've decided to switch to a new random sequence.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this at all. How is it possible for a site to know that players are "due for a good green streak" when the future client seeds are unknown?
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Everything depends on if the server is trusted or not. Every roll is independent of the previous and your chance to hit a roll is always the same.
I suggest to discuss only provably fair games here(preferably dice). If the game itself can't be trusted, the question about server seed change is meaningless.
It depends who changes the server seed: if the host decides to change it, they might have had a reason to do so. If the user decides to change it, the server could still give a seed that's bad for the way you're playing. However, they also risk you changing your strategy after using a new seed, so that's a risky thing to do.

This explains better what I mean:
Ryan, when Bustabit v1 is taken down, could you reveal the 10,000,000th game's hash (the first generated hash)? For legitness.
Why would you care about the hashes of any of the games which were never played?

It might make sense to look at future games, to check if that's the motivation for the new hash chain (or the timing of the release of it).
Oh yes, that's a good point. It could be that the players were due for a good green streak, and so you've decided to switch to a new random sequence.
legendary
Activity: 3626
Merit: 2209
💲🏎️💨🚓
@LoyceV would be the one to ask an opinion on Server Seeds, I've seen other posts of his discussing provably fair concepts.  I've "@"'ed him, so hopefully he'll stop by and have a read.

AFAI'mC previous rolls/outcomes should factor into ongoing results regardless of changes made to the back-of-house.
copper member
Activity: 2324
Merit: 2142
Slots Enthusiast & Expert
Do you agree that the frustration of a player(who needs to make thousands rolls for achieving his/her goal) about suddenly changed server seed is absolutely unjustified?
The frustration is justified, not because it's correct, but because of psychology or superstition. See https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PDF/RTP-graph.pdf
If we assume the dice code is working correctly. Then, let's say a player made 100,000 bets and got the lower tolerance RTP, the next actual RTP of 100,000 bets would likely return to its theoretical RTP or more to the upper tolerance. It doesn't matter what the server seed is, what slots machine*, casino location, etc.

*This is also a problem for slots game.
The problem is, if he only plays 1,000 spins or 100 spins, he may still be in the lower tolerance area (cumulative) or unlucky. So, it's pointless to stay playing on the same machine with the hope of getting better luck, and gets mad when the security kicks him out.

Some players like to change their hashes every x rolls, change hashes when in a losing streak, etc., IMO it doesn't affect anything but your brain.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
First off, thanks for your reply, @coinlocket$!

I really appreciate your trying to help.

Everything depends on if the server is trusted or not. Every roll is independent of the previous and your chance to hit a roll is always the same.

I suggest to discuss only provably fair games here(preferably dice). If the game itself can't be trusted, the question about server seed change is meaningless.

~
TO ME.
Now if you change the seeds you can't ever verify if the number of rolls will be equal to the math after an infinite number of rolls.

It's like throwing dice, you can hit a 6 6 but that is not mine 6 6. It's your variance, not mine.
~

I don't understand this part. Can you please elaborate a bit more?



Since I'm not getting much replies to my question, I think perhaps I poorly formulated it. So, I'll try once again. Smiley

Do you agree that the frustration of a player(who needs to make thousands rolls for achieving his/her goal) about suddenly changed server seed is absolutely unjustified?
legendary
Activity: 2366
Merit: 1512
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
Everything depends on if the server is trusted or not. Every roll is independent of the previous and your chance to hit a roll is always the same.

The only thing you can calculate the variance "luck of your rolls" with a simple formula:

Code:
1-((1-odds)^number of roll

So if you want to know when you will get a 50% on hitting 10k in a number of consecutive rolls you need to reverse the formula and I have no apps on this pc to do so but you will have something around 7000 rolls.

TO ME.
Now if you change the seeds you can't ever verify if the number of rolls will be equal to the math after an infinite number of rolls.

It's like throwing dice, you can hit a 6 6 but that is not mine 6 6. It's your variance, not mine.


Canche to hit 10000 after x rolls, you can't ever reach 100%
Code:
%                                Rolls
0,0100000000000% 1
0,0199990000000% 2
0,0299970001000% 3
0,0399940004000% 4
0,0499900009999% 5
0,0599850019998% 6
0,0699790034996% 7
0,0799720055993% 8
0,0899640083987% 9
0,0999550119979% 10
9,5167106441444% 1000
18,1277434734450% 2000
25,9192892249089% 3000
32,9693361124998% 4000
39,3484504375222% 5000
45,1204829105730% 6000
45,6665703979110% 6100
46,2072239536175% 6200
46,7424976489060% 6300
47,2724450169452% 6400
47,7971190582136% 6500
48,3165722458000% 6600
48,8308565306510% 6700
49,3400233467670% 6800
49,8441236163464% 6900
50,3432077548775% 7000
50,8373256761817% 7100
51,3265267974044% 7200
51,8108600439580% 7300
52,2903738544146% 7400
52,7651161853506% 7500
53,2351345161426% 7600
53,7004758537160% 7700
54,1611867372463% 7800
55,0689009880098% 8000
59,3448636702149% 9000
63,2138953567030% 10000
86,4678250517240% 20000
95,0220399630132% 30000
98,1688024116925% 40000
99,3263737389397% 50000
99,7521991387016% 60000
99,9088437158558% 70000
99,9664671539258% 80000
99,9876645721533% 90000
99,9954622766041% 100000


legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 2112
I stand with Ukraine.
I've noticed that many gamblers, even experienced ones, have the following misconception about what happens when the server seed is changed. When hunting for a high multiplier on dice, say, 9900x, they think all their previous losing rolls were "wasted" once the server seed was changed. As if with the same server seed you are guaranteed to hit 99.99(or 0.00) within 10k, or so, rolls. But that's not how it is, right?

I personally think that the number of times you can roll 99.99 within 10k bets has absolutely nothing to do with the variability of server seed. You can hit it many times, or zero times regardless of whether the server seed is remaining constant, or changing all the time.

But if someone can mathematically prove the opposite, you are more than welcome in this thread.
Jump to: