Topic: Should Bitcoin be attempted to replace by something of National Origin? (Read 7082 times)

'National cryptocurrency' is an oxymoron, yes.
National digital currency is against government's interest, yes. (Note I did not say nation)
National digital currency would be centralised, yes. By definition.

It would be stupid? not at all.
It is doom to fail? Absolutely not. Even stupid things succeed by the power of marketing. And this is not even stupid.

You're absolutely wrong. ABSOLUTELY. Okay? I'm not going to launch any cryptocurrency. I'm no fool to put time and resource into something that is deemed to fail. Launching cryptocurrency and making it successful requires much more than what you and I collectively possess.

I'd like to reinstate purpose of this thread as aim to explore "diversified thoughts" on national cryptocurrency which sooner or later will be launched by Government. That's it!

I know what I don't know therefore, wanted inputs to reach collective wisdom. Thanks! Now, I know national cryptocurrency will be a centralized initiative(unlike Bitcoin), oxymoron, doom to fail, stupid, against nation's interest and what not!

Great!

I agree with the same points, and there is no use of having nation cryptocurrency . A Universal currency is much more attractive as the development happening anywhere around the world will apply to what you will be holding. There is no need for it to be national as it feels to be a bit in the centralized ecosystem.

The aim of this thread is to generate buzz about BTCIndia's coin launching later this year.
I have no problems with that, and using buzzwords is a great marketing move too - I welcome it.

But the problem is 1. National Cryptocurrency is an oxymoron. A cryptocurrency cannot be national. This is a national digital currency.
2. A national digital currency is a loss for government and thus govt will want to build a digital banking grid rather than a new currency.

Thank you for your inputs! I have not started this thread for what you believe here. This thread's aim is to exploring some fundamental question related to Bitcoin.

Since the title of this thread changed since my last comments, here are some views on this thread.

Replace? Maybe not, but I would not say no to the possibility of other decentralized currencies using the Bitcoin Blockchain only for last mile services. This entirely depends on the evolution of Bitcoin and other technologies integrating into it.
If you have started this thread, to try to build a 'Made in India' cryptocurrency, you should try to lookup the alt-coin thread, where there are quite a few, of Indian origin.

Or am I still not getting the intent of this thread?

Thank you for invitation!

Religious behavior is when a cause, principle, or activity is pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion without a regard to rationality.

1. In all these 4 pages of this thread, I have provided numerous rational arguments, none of which you refuted.
2. You have given absolutely zero arguments in your favor till now. Similarly irrational have been your replies in this thread.
3. You have pursued your cause with zeal and used ad hominems to attack anyone arguing against you.

Lol, I even mentioned that I believe bitcoin will not succeed. So my stance really opposes the bitcoin religion.

For once do you wanna try rational arguments?

Brother, I'm totally incapable. I'm sorry. All I can say is, "enlightenment lies beyond religion."

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/is-bitcoin-a-religion/

Go deep. Enlighten me!

How shallow!

It is highly unlikely. The reasons being bitcoin was 100% open from day 1, anybody could have mined it but it didn't. In that way it is no different from a startup where some people get a brilliant idea, work day and night for several years, then let their company go public. Sure, the founders have shitloads of shares and get rich. Is that a problem? Would you demand Sergey Brin to disclose what he plans to do with his money earned from selling Google shares? Sergey could have an evil plan but it doesn't matter, he has the money now and is doing whatever he wishes to.

If we are so intelligent that our providence is perceived as coincidence, then we deserve to succeed since it is very rare to invent such an idea. Satoshi solved two very long-standing computer science problems that academics working in the field for decades have not been able to solve.

Then there are other problems. Having one of Nakamoto’s Bitcoins would be like having a stolen painting. All transactions in the Bitcoin network are completely public — and people think that they’ve already identified which Bitcoins belong to Nakamoto.

You might like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

I myself mined bitcoins very early, back in 2010, but they were worthless then so I threw away the keys. Personally, I believe that bitcoin won't be the world dominating currency because once people realize the power of it's algorithm, there will be millions of altcoins working under the hood, like many of us hold multiple ip addresses and run multiple networks (routers etc) but do not need to understand it's technicalities.

Overtaking Bitcoin is only a fool man's dream. All we can do attempt is to alleviate various drain that will happen in near future. That's why I've been been contemplating on something national to mitigate maximum possible. Well, stylish name, addictive trait, financial gains all are secondary requirement. First requirement is blind followers who will trust foundation without any questions and believe themselves as THE PROUD EARLY ADAPTER at heart. THE ENLIGHTENED ONE who knows most of things about Bitcoin. Just like we people here and foundation resembling Bitcoin foundation.

I've interesting scenario for you to imagine and build upon. Le your imagination fly:

Imagine national coin is launched and successful. You, me and most of disruptions are using it therefore effectively serves purpose served by Bitcoin. Is that end of story? Yes. Its end story for people who believe our national coin as savior and do not inquire beyond.

But, dirty little secret is, you, me and other people who're active here. Knows, national coin did not arise from air. It was created with purpose..whose inception started with a post and went through lot of thought iterations before being launched with ulterior motive... a vision...a purpose.

People will see coincidence, we know its providence. A purpose. And we'll be secretly laughing because we know story behind. Are we being stocks of laughter from someone? *I'm thinking.*

If anycoin in our nation evolves then it has to have some stylish and addictive name which will ensure no failure of such coins . However overtaking bitcoin is a fiction as of now .

Bitcoin is absolutely political. Blockchain is an algorithm for governance. What do the commons here claim?

right

Extreme? That is near future very palpable to me. I remember, evangelist claiming Bitcoin as non-political and neutral few years ago. And decentralized too.
All I can say is wait and watch.
*Fingers Crossed*

I know that's a longhsot and we are imagining extremes, but I like that possibility!

I like you. You're so polite. ^_^
Yes we need one world currency if outcome of debate called globalization is yes. A world currency is sure to bind us together if ulterior motive is not politics and self-interest. I believe, every other political agenda and moves will be soon dwarfed by Bitcoin. Bitcoin has more to do with politics and less to do with what commons here claim.

*Freedom of thought/stupidity/imagination at its best here*

I don't say it is one, but it is ideal for it to be one, a single currency will help change mindsets too, and help integrating the world towards being one entity.
Boundaries are always there, within a nation, states are a boundaries, but there are always some things that bind the nation together, a world currency can be a thing that binds the world together.

World was never one. Boundaries exists in mind and we're accustomed for thousands of years. Forget humans, animals have boundaries too. It is not getting away any soon with one currency. Maybe, force globalization will occur but boundaries will always be there. Don't be so naive. We need change of mind not currency for vision of one world.

That said, its origin is very obvious. VERY OBVIOUS. Lets hope, I'm wrong. Why not leave matter to accept/deny currency acceptance with domain experts? Ask yourself, how much you understand currency? Well, after years of studies, I'm confident about 1-2 percent. Its not just currency we're talking about... but social fabric of society.

Cheers,

Let's try to keep national differences apart and think of the whole world for once.
After all this is what our Indian philosophy is based on, integrating the whole world as a single entity.

Which nation do you take Bitcoin to be originated from?
Well there is no single that can be identified.

Let's keep things to that and accept Bitcoin as a world currency without bringing in nationalistic barriers.

That is what I said. Easily copyable and govt already owns mine!
I do have a method though.

It doesn't make sense to use biometrics as private keys. Instead they can be used as public keys.
See this paper: Fuzzy Identity Based Encryption

Is centralized crypto really done??
What consensus model (for transaction verification) will be used? How will 51% attacks be prevented?
Assuming its premined, how will we ensure a "bad bank" does not put in a lot of resources to reverse transactions?

You owe your dad for his stupidity you shitty trolling person, who has nothing intellectual to contribute at all. Zero. Also, you put comma in the wrong place which changes the meaning you illiterate.

Nevertheless, I don't mean what I said in the previous line but was just displaying how ad hominems work. They are irritating. So stop doing it & I am sorry if it hurt you.
Now onto something interesting..

Your unique proposition is that it would solve the 'Early adopters advantage' problem by a counter 'Early adopter's advantage'.
You realize there is a paradox here? If everyone (Indians) realizes that early adopters have an advantage then there are no late adopters!

What if early adopting Indians decide to gain advantage from late adopting fellow Indians, out of their greed?

Ooh if that happens then economic advantage shifts from the 'powerful by virtue of force'(PVOF) to 'powerful by virtue of information'(PVOI) which is 16% of Indians who have access to internet.

The PVOF, also known as the government, won't like it, at first. So you include them too onboard your plan.
Then they would realize that, by virtue of money spent in mining, it is actually their (PVOF's) slice of pie which is being re-distributed between 'them + the PVOIs' and thus won't agree.
Then you'd convince them that the slice of pie being taken away from them, is much smaller than the rise in size of the pie because of frictionless foreign investment possible by crypto.
So although they are getting a smaller fraction but the pie on whole has grown so big that now they are getting more!

So, then you would need to do three things:
1. Prepare data about how larger pie can get because of frictionless FDI.
Which would be those areas? The only thing out of govt control is untaxed "digital assets". So the rise in pie is sum of those digital assets being sold by Indians, that govt is unable to tax.
2. Ask the PVOIs to make and sell digital goods to increase the FDI. This is very hard since we are only considering non-taxable sellers here, these PVOIs already doing this don't pay tax as per point 1 and thus won't wanna change it. Hence step 3.
3. Spread internet to rest of 84% indians and help them make and sell digital goods! More this happens, more the pie grows!


कान दूसरी तरफ से पाकड़ो तो, tl;dr :
Get Internet devoid Indians to make and sell digital goods. But since you can't tax digital goods because of difficulty in tracing them, issue a new type of currency that lets people sell digital goods without paying tax, but pre-print a lot of it for yourself.


Brilliant! Except that the govt would say "if this is possible then we'd simply spread internet and keep monitoring the sales in INR, so if anybody wants to actually receive money for their goods, they'd have to go through us; this is where we tax them."


So then you go to the PVOIs and explain all of the above to them and ask them to keep govt out of it.
Tell them that they have 3 advantages (a) being early adopters (b) recognition of early market of digital goods (c) opportunity to become the ISP for 85% of India  

But now, you won't have the support of the govt, so you need a new method to tie it to their national identity.

Hmm..  

Since adhar card number is public it could only be a public key so cant be used.
What is the secret key that every Indian possesses? Only their signature or thumbprint.

Write an algorithm to convert thumb prints to private keys. oh shit, the govt took all my fingerprints for adhaar card.

Hmm..  

I have a mechanism. Let me know if anyone seriously wanna buy it.

OR Use toe prints???

Thanks a lot! I owe you, stupidity in return.

exactly I also want an app that connects all bank accounts 

People are so firmly in Bitcoin that, they're not able to see event from vantage point. I don't know. I've chaos in head. I must take a break from worry!

Issue resolved!

Yes a centralized crypto can be done but banks are ahead on it already, so it must offer a benefit over banks.
OR could be a tie up with a bank.

Go for it BTCIndia, I always wanted an app that connects all banks' accounts.

I never suggested a cryptocurreny limited to national boundary. Instead, I suggested a national crypto-currency initiative by national participants(government and private participants). Where government is monitoring authority and group of people its engine.

Next questions is what advantage it would have? Think of Ola Cabs standing against Uber. I'm not telling world to switch Ola.. but we must strive to make ola an important company. So that, whenever tourist or people interested in India are here.. they think of Ola and use .. not uber.(Power of 1.2 billion)

What that would do?

Uber valuation is somewhat $40 billion dollar and growing. Its maximum potential is in India. So if India rejects, I guess it would put down its valuation by someone what $5 billion dollar. Its not just Uber everything related to Uber is its technology, its R&D, analytic, satellite navigation, petrol utilized .. everything is foreign origin. Now, think yourself as early share holder of Uber.

What would you do? I"m sure. If you've self-interest and wish to promote consumerism then you'd actively promote it nationwide. Else, if you're early adapter then probably you understand, what impact you'll have and therefore support/boost Ola...so that its can have initial momentum(a chance to compete).

I've tried to explain in metaphor to keep your imagination going. Later, I'll come to some technical things that I'm firmly believe would happen.

I'm glad you took time to contemplate on question before commenting. I meant national cryptocurrency for anyone interested worldwide, not just limited to national users. I'm reflecting on this subject very deeply therefore repercussions.
Yes, we are missing something big here(at least, I believe so). I'm actively digging to reach it, couldn't find co-digger.
Developers everywhere, vision nowhere. I'm not talking about vision of banking unbanked, decentralized currency and nation-less currency.

We are all willing to discuss if you have any points at all, but all it seems you have background and long track experience in, is trolling.

Like, Anybody not voting for BJP -> not for development
Anybody who doesn't agree with BTCIndia -> not open minded

Indirect ridicule as defense mechanism works in following 2 cases both of which won't work here:
1. If your followers can beat up the other party's followers. (Won't work because trolling without evidence is not in majority here yet)
2. When people's direct identity is involved. In ordinary matters of inquiry into events that yield confounding and contradictory evidence, people might defend or attack the evidence. But they do not ridicule each other. (On this forum, even if you do that it doesn't matter because most identities are pseudonymous.)

Let us argue sensibly.

I have only one question from you :
How do you propose to contain a cryptocurrency to a national boundary, without a central authority?

It's hard to restrict something like a cryptocurrency to national borders.

I mean how would you filter users? IP address? Aadhar number?? It wont work.

I thought about this for a long time and don't see any way to control membership apart from some sort of centralized system (Govt.).

Maybe I'm missing something that others see.

You didn't read that explanation, did you? Read its last para again for "why not".

1. I agree as per Hody that it may attract interest of regulators, but they can't do anything about it.
2. Ripple is centralized. Since it started so early, when things were not that clear, lot of early investors have vested interests. Yes, you can do something like ripple. PayTM and Trestor are already doing it!
3. "They are analyzing". RBI's Raghuram has said himself that "bankers would have to find new jobs" because of cryptocurrencies.

Apart from that, people who trust banks in India (which is more than 3% of Indians who pay tax and less than 50% of Indians who have bank accounts) will have no problem trusting them again with a 'national' cryptocurrency, but the rest would not. Former is a big market but how would that be any different from Axis Ping Pay?

I welcome any Indian cryptocurrency.

Naming anything 'national' doesn't actually make it so, but yes names can cause an illusion and would serve nice marketing to lure the uneducated.

I'm not surprised with your understanding as you have background and long track experience in financial field. I'm glad someone is willing to discuss with open mind. I look forward to any question you have.
Thanks!

Dear Moderator,

I've changed topic of this thread so it fits criteria of main discussions thread. I request, you to move so that people can reflect on important issue.

Sincerely,

Utterly confused

Honestly a true crypto currency decentralized network can not be restricted to any boundaries. Everything else is Paypal with different name and implementation. Not that it is wrong or does not have any benefits, but if we compare it with Bitcoin, we are comparing mangos and banana. Few love banana, few love Mango

Regards

As per Coinbase compliance head, Hody  said that " bitcoin is a protocol, a payment network and a digital currency – often simultaneously –it may attract the interest of various different regulators ( http://www.coindesk.com/be-vigilant-on-compliance-coinbase-warns-bitcoin-startups/ )

Already Internationals banks are adopting the Ripple as a payment network, why can't a National Cryptocurrency used as a protocol / a payment network (http://www.coindesk.com/australia-commonwealth-bank-ripple-experiment)

Britain and Greece are analyzing national cryptocurrency as a payment network , why can't a National cryptocurrency used as a payment network in India( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11434904/Bitcoin-revolution-could-be-the-next-internet-says-Bank-of-England.html)

A cryptocurrency can't be national, by definition.
Read my explanation above.

If Indian payment card system Rupay replacing the International payments systems- VISA and MasterCard;
Source  http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/credit-cards/news/rupay-credit-cards-to-roll-out-next-year/articleshow/47692698.cms
why can't a National Cryptocurrency?

I agree with all the points.

1) Why go national, when you can go international - Bitcoin
2) A national cryptocurrency (I am assuming you are thinking of an INR backed, decentralized, crypto) would be subject to the same problems as fiat currencies - capital control and debasing of value
3) If you think of it, decentralizing a national currency might not offer any additional value. You already have e-money and NEFT/IMPS/RTGS which can transfer money quickly and cheaply. And the PM is doing a pretty good job in making sure that people have bank accounts.

I am utterly confused.

Dunno how those words came in that, but I was in Pope house - yellow and White :p

Sounds like Pope trying Buddhism.

From School

"No vici" alas! Oh, and it's 'non vici' in latin...

I like to listen when commons talks about concept of currency and decentralization. Commons with common concept of currency everywhere-here!
Thanks for patient listening!
I must leave now.

More like, pride of the elites / comedy of the senate.

Negative sir. The only Tragedy is you believing that the commons after having a decentralized currency will chose a government fiat based crypto over a truly decentralized one.

Tragedy of commons.

NationalAlts.

I like the ring of that.
Who's going to adopt them and foster a love though with big brother at the helm.
Not I great Sirs. Not I

This is supposedly either the fastest growing troll thread on this sub or a big communication gap; I can't tell which.

What OP writes: "Embrace yourself for National Cryptocurrency"
What people read: "Embrace yourself for 'a' national cryptocurrency."
I think what OP meant: "Embrace yourself for national cryptocurrencies in future"

It is evident that OP's is not very proficient in english through various of his replies.
For example, when he fails to understand the meaning of isolation, which was meant "separation from rest", but OP read it as "being alone". I would also doubt OP's intelligence as he brings his personal bias against religion into arguments out of context.

BUT, leaving the comprehensive prowess aside, if we assume that OP meant latter, then it leaves room for loads of debate. My view would be that the concept of 'nations' is just physical boundaries under control of a centralised power practicing jurisdiction with the virtue of that power (and providing governance in return in the modern age, because people no longer consent to the idea of a permanent king thus replacing the replacing the battle for exercising jurisdiction from battle among kings in the form of wars to battle among ideologies of a group in the form of elections). Since this battle is fought on many levels, such as mohalla/gram, village/block, vidhan, state, national etc., any logic that justifies national cryptocurrencies would also justify state cryptocurrencies or even a village/town specific cryptocurrency.

The only counter argument that would not, is that the jurisdiction and people would want a common national cryptocurrency to allow for trading valuations. But this stands against the very principal of design of cryptocurrencies wherein an individual could posses multiple national cryptocurrencies and be trading in them in this globalized world, being restricted only by exchange of physical goods (whereas digital goods incur no such restriction and thus renders the digital trader indistinguishable from the native of land).

HOWEVER, if OP meant that he/she/they are going to launch a national cryptocurrency then it is wrong by definition. It could be an Indian cryptocurrency and that too only by the virtue of invention (only as much as gravity is english or chinacoin is chinese) but not by the virtue of its discovery, which in cryptoworld is called mining (like you can't tell which gold is Indian) and thus would place no restriction on its national boundary of discovery and use (and thus cannot stop cross-border digital exchange, hawala, etc.). If such a restriction is placed, it becomes centralised by definition, and thus ceases to be a cryptocurrency but only a digital currency (like axis bank's 'ping pay'). Thus, this would be a huge troll thread.

tl;dr: A cryptocurrency can be Indian but never national, as per the definiton of cryptocurrency.

I'm sorry about my incapacity for question raised. And sincere apologies for speaking about atheism to christian! That was metaphor which in nutshell conveys my 'belief and ideology.'
Happy landscaping!

No. Because you seem to think that you can drive a population into isolation with a single currency/ philosophy. As per OP.
But this is not true.. India is a diverse country with many beliefs and many ideologies. You cannot regress to a point where the world has to fallback into a point of geographic/ geo-political redistribution.

Bitcoin happens to be the first and only scalable solution in this space of future, commerce and individuality.

Hope, I gave you satisfactory answer for question: what population have to do with isolation?

In a decade, pigs will fly. If that does not happen, I will apologize for a foolish assumption.

1.2 billion united can never be isolated knowing world population is approximately 6 billion. That is approximately 20 percent. Does it makes sense now?
Of course, 20 percent can be isolated when rest 80 percent are together. That would never happen, because there is something known as balance of power. I believe, 1.39 billion are getting ready and would be joined by other 143 million and so on. That makes only few hundred million left to isolate us.

Come back to this thread after decade and it would make complete sense.

What does population have to do with isolation?

1.2 billion is isolation. Great maths!

This thread makes no sense. A  National Cryptocurrency? Does that mean that we have finally figured out a way to geographically isolate a cryptocurrency? How? Why? Nvm?

Missed the point? nvm.

So far it has negligible impact on India. But, same won't be case in future. There are many people involved in this space, more you can ever imagine. Just to quote, "India was one of prominent supplier on silk road."
Yes. People will tend to stick to Bitcoin and here comes our responsibility to show them pron's and con's. Rather then suggesting, 'buy,buy,buy.'

Every coin has two sides. No matter its virtual Bitcoin. This is problem with Bitcoin users(including me), they understand Bitcoin and claim to understand everything else that forms sub-set of Bitcoin. Anyways, we're two different frame of mind, now.

P.S: I've been where there once and decided not to stop inquiring.

Let me help you with implication of post: Dude, I've vague information about national cryptocurrency and I'm excited about it. I sincerely request you to take time to understand financial intricacies in order to better understand importance, need and impact of national crypto-currency when it is launched in near future. Yes, it is sure to fail. But, 'collective will' might create a palpable change.

As far as, "never accepted by most of financial institutions" is concerned, its been only few years. Give it sometime! You might be surprised to know, hedge funds faced much harsh criticism and backlash then Bitcoin when it was launched. Acceptance by financial institution is not matter to worry about. Most of the national crypto-currency failed because active participant couldn't see bigger picture or reality beyond propaganda. National crypto currency are inevitable. Our support will play crucial role and impact on economic drain.

I'm sorry! I bothered you people.

Continue with your stimulating discussions!

 

Well what the OP said is very vague, I am not even sure what he implied with his post; so lets not get ahead of ourselves.
If a national cryptocurrency was invented then the fees of buying bitcoin from exchanges outside of India could be reduced if not avoided altogether, provided the crypto we come up with is accepted in other exchanges and is easily obtainable through more desi means.

Bitcoin being a global crypto has a very less impact in India, and not many people are involved in this space. I really doubt a national cryptocurrency would have much impact as most of the people who have used Bitcoin, would probably still stick with bitcoin and just like Bitcoin it would never be accepted by most of the financial institutions. I doubt any national crytp has been successful for long in any of the other countries.

Laxmicoin failed because, it couldn't head fake active national nodes. Apart from that, they didn't have comprehensive marketing, adaption and propaganda in place. It takes country to create a Bitcoin like successful currency.

There is huge difference between altcoin and national cryptocurrency. National Cryptocurrency can be called altcoin but that dosen't imply altcoin (Laxmicoin, Kashmir coin, Modicoin, Bharatcoin) are national cryptocurrency.

Because, I assume 'you' have updated yourself with intricacies of financial system. And therefore in better position to understand the importance of national cryptocurrency. Anything that is not Bitcoin is altcoin.

No additional detail on this 'altcoin'. They have right to dismiss it and let then utilize their right for their own good.

You should have been more involved in that separate forum. The reason Laxmicoin failed was because it failed to garner any attention from the Indians.

When did laxmicoin come out? ROFL, I thought that the coin was still in development(and I hoped to see some new innovations in it), but did it fail so badly that we weren't even able to notice it failing? 

He is talking about National Cryptocurrency, not National Currency. 

Yah... Raghuram Rajan appears to be far more reliable than Gavin Andresen. INR rulez

Laxmicoin failed, so did Kashmir coin, if this is 'yet another altcoin' what makes it any different ?

Why exactly would we not dismiss it as another altcoin? Sounds like yet another altcoin.

Any additional details on this altcoin? 
If it is just a statement like that, of course people will dismiss it.

Original Thread was "Embrace Yourself for National Cryptocurrency"

And it was moved to altcoins sections therefore, I'm changing its title so that it suits main thread. Essence is same. National currency how important compared to Bitcoin?

Take your time to educate with intricacies of financial world. And lets pray together that, full-time nodes actively promulgating so called 'disruption' and 'network effect' backed by argument of 'innate network effect' do not discard National Cryptocurrency as another altcoin.

If its is launched then should we adapt or discard it?