Topic: Should BTC amounts greater than 10.000E be declared when leaving the country? (Read 492 times)

I'm sorry @GazetaBitcoin  you were right and I was wrong. and personally, I have never had 10.000 E and not relate to me. I hope you find the solution and Good Luck with your trip 

I also share this thought. In my opinion, being caught with an undeclared wallet (containing more than 10.000E in BTC) hidden on the storage of a drone / action camera / music player / portable speaker seems way more suspicious than simply having the wallet on your phone. If custom officers are targeted for amounts greater than 10.000E there may be nothing to do; yet hiding the wallet in such unusual place may trigger them to believe the coins may be part of an illegal scheme or who knows...

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I would certainly never use a centralized exchange. And you said a part of the risks associated with them -- but there are many other risks presented by such exchanges:

- first of all, the rule "not your keys not your coins" is more than real: a Court decision from 2020 practically says that
- centralized exchanges may be hacked and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges may seize your account at any time and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges may also lose your personal information due to hackers and this puts your life in jeopardy, as hackers sell your private data on dark web and you never know what burglar may show up at your door
- centralized exchanges may perform an exit scam and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges offer your personal information to authorities
- centralized exchanges may even sell your personal information, as it happened in Coinbase's case
- last, but not least, centralized exchanges imply KYC and this topic of 1miau will explain even better the risks associated with KYC: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless.

If all these were not enough for never using a CEx ever again, then maybe this topic of VB1001 may help on this matter: Hacked Exchanges since 2011.

I really dont know in specific the laws of al the EU countries but.... i think we have like in all the earth two types of law, the Roman law based (mayority of latin countries) and the common law or anglosaxon based.

I said this because im not sure how things works in the other system.

Well for me if you have also a really good lawyer you dont have to have mayor problems because, where are the bitcoins? In your app or in where the app its based? are you really travel with them or are you only moving yourself and after you reach them from another destination?. And one more WHERE are the BTC really? in the network, in the blockchain.... so nowhere, if the law its not specific they cant touch you (yes they always touch you ).

Lets me take an example from the traditional world, if i have a credit/debit card with 50000 euros, i dont have to say "o look i have in the account linked to this card X ammount of money" i travel and i spend the money. I know you are gonna say, "yes , but the funds never moves from the origin country or account" and yes, but the BTC also, doesnt move.

I know its a little bit tricky to understand or maybe im not good expresing this and my grammar in english its no so good, but i think you can catch the point.

And one last thing, the mayority of countries look over the bags or whatever but in terms of money they only catch some bigs or absurd movements , because after all they only waits until you buy a big thing (house car etc) and in that moment they come and say "ohh look , from where its the money?" and in economical delits the charge of the proof its inverted, you are not innocent you have to prove you are innocent, and in that moment its when you have to show from where the money came.

That is a bad idea to execute for obvious reasons because if the airport security don't confiscate it, some curious onlooker could still photocopy it and run away (and take your cash later).


That is not a particularly good idea and it is not something you want to be explaining in front of court if you are caught doing that.

I think that even if I don't take into account the CEX-KYC problems (since Gazeta already did), depositing such big amounts of money into others' pockets "just in case" is by far the worse idea.
The point here was about avoiding problems, not getting into bigger ones.
Bitcoin is about being your own bank. Since you can easily store/hide your wallet's seed in your luggage (not all in the same place!), why use a CEX?!!?

I know centralized exchange is bad since ftx case but I do believe you are using Cex for withdraw your money right, besides that this is temporary you across border and when u arrive withdraw the money 

or just back to my first option using opendime

Lol! It's a pity, but I think you are right here. I also said something similar in an earlier post, but there I was referring to the (im)possibility of trying to reason with custom officers about the bitcoins, which are actually held on blockchain, not by you and you can move them using private keys.

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Then, compared with your experience, I guess I should say that I was lucky Although they made me almost lose my next flight, they made me feel like a criminal for no valid reason and they scared the shit out of me when they brought those doge out of nowhere (for a few seconds I thought they'll threaten me with the dogs for saying what they wanted to hear -- or, at least, to try to intimidate me using the dogs). I am not sure, but I think they were two dogs, not just one. And they were ferocious-looking dobermans.


Seems legit /s 

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Lol, what? Use a centralized exchange?

Sorry for asking that, but you are an old user... you still don't know to what dangers you expose yourself by using a centralized exchange?

I had a similar situation in one of the eastern countries where I flew from Turkey. But ended up checking the documents. There are a lot of up-to-date scanners at the Istanbul airport, and it is impossible to carry prohibited items there. The customs officers were not interested in a phone or a laptop, but now they can check any equipment.

But the logic of the customs officers from Athens surprises me. In Russia, customs officers will never tell you why you were detained for checking documents and things. Customs officers have such a right. Instead of apologizing for the inconvenience, they told you that you are to blame, because you are flying on 3 planes
I always thought the more airports I visit, the greater the risk of being checked.

I dont have knowledge about this but i don't think they will check your e-wallet from your phone. I mean if do they check you can carry opendime fill it with bitcoin and says that is regular USB thumbdrive

or deposit your money or btc to a centralized exchange and withdraw it when you arrive in destination country but of course you need a liquid exchange like binance

That's the thing with different cases, the completely free movement without control is only for the Schengen area Bulgaria, Romania, and Cyprus still have full border control, and passing from Romania to Hungary in theory should be just like entering Italy from Tunisia, the fact the controls are more relaxed for EU citizens doesn't really matter, and since OP is from Romania, things are different than for the rest of us. He will have to go through those controls, thus the risks of running into an imbecile that wants to make a quota of seized...something.

As for the Bitcoin issue, it's pretty simple and once they will take their time to adopt clear laws specifically for it it will most likely be required to declare it just as cash and gold, the logic is pretty simple (for them)
- you enter with cash, gold, bitcoins, nobody can track where you have spent it and whom you have given it to
- you enter with 1 million on a debit card, it still can be tracked, ATM, resort hotel, shop, casino it's there

That's all they care about, they will not listen to logical things like the fact that you could send those coins while you're over the Atlantic ocean, toss your phone in the Mediterranean, and still those coins would get into the country without them being able to stop, it's far easier to make other do something.


Doesn't work like that, all the money is seized in that situation, but again, seized and not confiscated since confiscation is possible in the EU only with a final decision on individual cases, so even if the border guards do seize your cash you still have a chance to get them back. If the court decides you haven't provided enough evidence of ..a lot of things, lol, like source, the fact that you did this without ulterior motive and so on, then they get confiscated and are gone for good.

That being said I've traveled before 2007 a few times with sums over that amount into Germany and Austria, and they didn't give a damn, never bothered to actually check the amount, signed the papers and get out of here already!

O...my.. god.... LOL!!!!


Actually I've seen this logic (at Discovery Channel or similar) on Airport Security related shows and the logic is that if you change too many planes or you stay only a day at a vacation place you're automatically suspicious (because the detour/extra stops may mean you meet some dealers).


Well, "soon" is a relative term. But in 10-15 years we should have it.  Maybe earlier, who knows?

Actually, that happened to me once, when I was returning from Crete. I had to take 3 planes from there (Crete - Thessaloniki; Thessaloniki - Athens; Athens - Bucharest). When I reached Athens, just after I got off the plane, some 3 weird-looking-bearded-small guys came to me and said some gibberish. I did not understand anything and, at first, I ignored them, thinking they are beggars  (Yes, seriously!) But they came after me. Seeing they insist I thought they need some assistance and I told myself to hear them out. I asked 3 times the guy to repeat himself until I understood what he was saying: "Police airport, follow us please"". His English was so poor it was very hard to understand.

Seeing I finally understood who they are, he also showed me his badge and I followed him, being scared I may lose my next plane, which was only 40 minutes later. I kept asking what's the problem but they did not say anything until I reached unto a small room and they started checking all my luggage, while asking me drug-related questions: if I like drugs / when is last time I smoked pot / if I knew that in Crete you can find best hash etc. When he asked last question I wanted to say "Sadly, I did not know that when I arrived there but now that you say it I feel like going back" =)))

He kept inspecting my suitcases while he talked, checking for hidden parts. He also checked a bag with dirty socks, lol. In the end he also brought a dog to smell everything.

And, after all this procedure ended, they told me I looked suspicious because I was returning home with 3 planes, instead of 1 or 2 (facepalm). And I was almost losing my plane because of them!

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Lol! That's funny yet great idea

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Do you think such ambiguous legislation will be updated soon...?

I'd argue that it isn't the same. A wallet is a container. It can be empty, or carry $1000, or $10 million. Many hardware wallets don't display the amount that they contain. You have to connect it to an app and unlock it to see the contents.

The TSA don't have the means and time to check the contents of a wallet. I don't see a way you could get in trouble over a hardware wallet.

What about a metal hardware wallet that contains your private key or seed words? Do you think that when they see a metal piece with some random letters and numbers they're going to take it from you because you could be smuggling money on it?

You can hide bitcoin in every electronic device including drones, action cameras, phones, music players, portable speakers... I have an infrared camera that can store images so it can also store a private key. It's impossible to check all of these at the airport.

Let's try a different approach: if you own $23M in Bitcoin, you can't prove you don't have have it with you! So if they find it because you have a physical wallet with you, you could just as well have hidden it. You also may not have any plans to use it, you're just on vacation and don't want to risk leaving your hardware wallet unattended at home. Or, the alternative, you have 12 seed words in your memory and nobody can find anything on you. So the physical wallet with $23M they find is only a piece of evidence, but doesn't change anything else. What if you have one of those bought wallet.dat files that pretends to hold 1000 Bitcoin? You don't know the password, and it doesn't even exist because the wallet is fake, but will it still get you in trouble?

That's very easy: create a signed raw transaction, and schedule it to broadcast at a certain time. Use locktime to make sure it can't be broadcasted earlier. Bitcoin Core and Electrum allow command line access, so a simple cronjob will do. You can even bring the raw transaction, print it, or send it to your email. Alternatively, you can hide your funds slightly beyond your wallet's address gap limit. It's so easy to hide funds, criminals must be really stupid to get caught while crossing a border. And that brings me back to the law-abiding citizens (who didn't think it through), who can be a "victim" to this while crossing borders.

I don't understand you. I am not talking about that. I was talking about crossing borders with $23M in Bitcoin and said that you could encounter the same potential problems with the same amout in cash, but not that you (or someone) is going to cross the border with that amount in cash to make a payment in Bitcoin. That, indeed, wouldn't make sense.


Law abiding citizens who carry enormous amount os undeclared funds (it doesn't matter if it is in Bitcoin, cash, gold or whatever), like tens of millions as in the example,  better worry about it. No matter if they are of legal origin.


Thank you for this idea. Couldn't we come up with a variation? Let's imagine you have to go to a country outside the EU and they are going to give you trouble if they find you any amount of Bitcoin. Couldn't you leave a transaction programmed from a wallet at home, and take an empty HW with you? For example.

There is a possible cases one would have $23M in Bitcoin; just then that person would most probably travel with a private jet though.
I expect a good number of initial investors have spent only small(er) portions at $10, $100, $1000, $10000 and still have some.


I think that's a gray area. Imho it's like with the VISA card. You can have much more than 10k on your VISA card or as deposits in your account and you don't have to declare it.
After all, normally and legally one will most probably sell bitcoins at a CEX or, anyway, with money coming into his bank account.

However, one can easily keep his seed phrase safely and separately and he can avoid surprises until the legislation becomes clearer.

The required customs declaration discussed in this thread only refers to cash and cash equivalents. A Rolex (or similar luxury product) does not fall under cash equivalents.

I don't think there's any other rules under which you'd have to declare it at all (being an item intended for personal use), though depending on the item more specific restrictions may apply. Unless of course you're wearing multiple Rolex watches, at which point customs will presume that you're importing them and certain taxes apply. But that's still unrelated to the declaration requirements for cash and cash equivalents.

You need to declare everything that is above the 10k limit, but obviously there's room for human error. 

First example would be cash, yes you could fit in 22x 500 EUR notes in to your jacket and pass through the check up without any issues, but if caught, it's obvious what you're doing, so you'll get in trouble.

Second example would be a Rolex watch, sure you can try to get from one country over to the next one with the latest submariner on your wrist, but if caught, you'll get in trouble again since it's not that hard to spot a submariner.

Third example would be silver, sure you can try to get 15k EUR worth of silver from one country to another disguised in pans (yes it's a thing, people make pans from silver), but you'll get in trouble if they find it out.
 
Your example, bitcoins, is the same thing. If you're having it on your phone in an app, and not like cash in your pocket or a rolex on your wrist, you might get away with it. But if it's on a well-known easy to spot hardware wallet and within your bag that gets scanned - you might get in to trouble. It's not properly regulated and depends on your risk appetite.

It still doesn't make sense. Unlike carrying $23M in cash (about 460 kg in $50 bills), you don't need to physically cross a border to make a $23M payment in Bitcoin. Anyone with bad intentions can make sure there's nothing to find on him while traveling, but law abiding citizens have to worry about their savings when they go on holiday?

You could just as well schedule a transaction to be broadcasted to a different wallet 12 hours later, so if you're in jail they'll see the funds disappear.

Well, there really are no borders. There is free movement of people, capital and goods within the EU. If there is no limit to cash payments in some cases, there is no limit to the money you can carry with you if it is of legal origin (even if you are supposed to declare them in some cases).


No, we have talked about this example several times in this section in different threads, and I always say the same thing: if you carry $23M in Bitcoin as in the example you give, and the police see it (suppose you are careless and have the Ledger Live app without password protection on your laptop, which is not password protected either, and the police officer who understands the issue sees the $23M in the app), at least they will confiscate it and probably detain you preventively while they make further inquiries.

It's all a matter of quantity. Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion, which is the only thing they could prove. He had everything very well tied up except the economic issue: he had much more money than he could legally justify.

Besides, the $23M does not add up. Suppose your annual salary is around the average annual salary in the EU, about €45k. What do you do with $23M unspent? The other thing that also doesn't add up is people not selling as an investment goes up tends 0 as the investment goes up more. If you bought or were gifted 1k Bitcoin when it was worth $1, it's very rare that you didn't sell at $10, even rarer that you didn't sell at $100 etc.

All those things that are unexplained coupled with an exorbitant amount of funds lead the police to preemptively confiscate and investigate you for sure.


Yes, that is clear. There is free movement of people in the EU, but we are talking for illustrative purposes.


Yes, the truth is that actually nowadays, you can move around Europe with as much Bitcoin as you want (well, with your keys) that the probability of being searched and found is almost 0, and even closer to 0 if you are a little careful.

I fly a lot within the EU and I've never been searched. I always have my phone and often carry a laptop. The only thing they do is they make you take it out and turn it on to see if it works and isn't a shell full of explosives or something. Same with the phone, I've never been asked about apps that I have in there, they don't care about that. I could have the hardware wallet along with my keys and they wouldn't ask about it. It looks like a flash drive and those are of course allowed.

I'd never declare my bitcoins simply because I don't want anyone to know that I'm a bitcoiner. I also don't walk around with any bitcoin logos for safety reasons.

Let's think of a situation where they ask me what have in my hardware wallet and I have a million euro on me. I'd simply say that I have no access to the wallet, that it's just a key that unlocks a wallet on my home computer or something like that and I'm carrying with me because it's a part of my key chain or whatever. I don't believe they'd hold it, but if that happened, I'd still have access to it because I have the seed and they wouldn't be able to check the contents without knowing my password. Also they wouldn't have the right to seize it. All they can possibly do is treat it like a suspicious item and not allow me to take it onboard, but I'd be able to get it back and the contents wouldn't be revealed.

From my experience they aren't suspicious of electronic devices, especially ones that are as small and simple as hardware wallets or memory cards. You can store bitcoin on a memory card of your phone or a gopro without having any apps installed there so even if someone powers on the device they won't find anything.

I cross the border with an old phone, and if the inspector asks to see him, I will smile and give him the phone. A laptop is much easier to prepare for moving across the border. If the control is random and the person will not succumb to provocation, then the control will be formal.
You laugh in vain at the expense of pornography, in some countries it is prohibited.
You probably have not come across this, but even after crossing the border at the airport, people in civilian clothes came up to me, showed me a badge, like a policeman, and asked me to show my documents. Some people were detained.
If you have passed customs control, you should not lose your vigilance and get crypto wallets from hiding places.

That's easy to answer: I consider my phone to be an untrusted device (same as the tablet), and doesn't have anything that I can't handle losing at any moment. No banking, a separate email account, no passwords, no crypto other than small amounts for the rare IRL payment.

Lol In that case: act suspiciously, refuse all drinks, look around you a lot, and use your most nervous voice and drop your stuff a few times when checked. Enjoy!

When you said above that you prefer to have your phone searched I believed that you mean that, in case you are stopped at the border for a device check, then from all digital devices you carry you'd prefer to have the phone searched -- and this intrigued me Why the phone and not the tablet, for example.

However, what you just said now put things in a totally different perspective Yet even when having to choose between a cavity search or a phone check, based on the skills earned during last years inside the foxhole, a cavity search should not be a problem -- but the opposite: a pleasure

You get to choose between a full cavity search and having your phone checked, and you're in doubt? What kind of secrets do you have on your phone?

Perhaps I did not understand well what you meant above. I thought you are saying that there is no limit for the money which someone can carry with him when crossing the border, not about a cash limit for a transaction.


I understand what you are trying to say. You examples are sound and coherent. But I believe they are true only if you talk about fiat money. Since crypto raises suspicion in the eyes of authorities only by hearing this term, I am afraid (like really afraid) that declaring it may raise even more suspicion, out of no where. What if you don't have (even at home) proofs like KYC for your funds? Maybe you simply received 1000 BTC in the age when it was 1$ or less.Will you declare you are carrying 23M$ in BTC and, if you'll be asked for its provenience you'll say that it was a gift? Do you really think this would work?

La revedere

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Looooool! I am sure that no country shows that kind of statistics


Now you made me curious. Why is that? 


I also thought about that: how many employees they need in order to search everybody's phone digital device. I assumed they certainly don't have many enough for this, nor they have time enough for properly checking even the devices they are checking. I guess the action can be seen as a tryout: they may have a predetermined number to check each day -- let's say 10 devices. If they find anything suspicious then hooray to entire department; if not, that's fine too.

"Border Control" on TV shows only the extremes. There's no fun watching a TV show that shows endless rows of families passing through customs without problems.
Talking about invasive: they can also do full cavity searches. It happens. And yet, it's not my concern while crossing a border.

This got me curious, but I couldn't find what percentage of travellers gets to bend over. I know which one I'd prefer though: please just look at my phone!

It has to be: they don't have time to fully check a lot of devices.

France:


Information from the Netherlands government website.

Of course I am sure. The public authorities cannot seize your assets arbitrarily. If you have declared your funds and they are of legal origin, they cannot seize them, whether they are €11k or €1M. In cash or bitcoin.

Example, you are a businessman with a lot of money that buys €1M in Coinbase fully KYC verified with the profits of your companies. You live in Portugal but want to move to Cluj Napoca in Romania and you tell the authorities that you are going to take that €1M in a HW (or in cash, it doesn't matter). They can't seize it.

Another thing is that you are a worker who has not declared anything, who earns €800 per month and carries €1M in Bitcoin (which maybe you bought without KYC in 2010 for little money and you have HODLed, passing it through mixers for privacy and never declared). There you are going to have a problem.

La revedere.

I certainly hope that such cases are very few and only in just a few countries. This feel so... invasive!

I made some research on what you said and on https://www.canada.ca/en.html I found a page describing what you just said. And it's true, they may actually inspect your phone. And not just that! All your digital devices. According to Canadian government (highlight is mine),


Are you sure there is no limit for individuals?


Again, are you 100% sure they confiscate undeclared BTC (or what's over 10.000E) although there is no reference inside the law specifying the term cryptocurrency?

I've only seen that in the Border Control program (or something like that is called) at the Canadian border if I remember correctly, but I doubt very much that they do that in European countries.


Not at all.

Just because you have to declare them does not mean that you cannot pass with a higher amount. Here the problem is that you have Bitcoins with privacy and you do not want them to know but you can have €20k in cash or Bitcoin of legal and declared origin, that if you want to cross the border the only thing you have to declare it, saying previously that you are going to pass with that money. There are countries where the limit on cash payments is only when one party is a company, but with individuals there are no limits on cash payments.

Let's suppose you live in France, where there is a cash payment limit and you want to go to Germany where there is no limit to buy a car worth €20k in cash, something very common there because it is a country that uses a lot of cash. Or Bitcoin. You can declare it calmly and nobody will confiscate anything. Another thing is that in a routine control at the "border" (nonexistent for practical purposes today) they do a search and they catch you those €20k in cash or Bitcoin without declaring. Then they will confiscate everything or the excess of €10k, but not if you have declared it before.

Seriously? In this case situation is worst than I thought... I did not imagine that they actually check people's phones... I mean I wrote above about this possibility, but I did not actually think it is happening. May I ask in what countries your friend encountered such zealous custom officers?


This is ridiculous! Why don't they check the porn sites history then?


Considering what you just said I think it's a good advice.

Just curious though: do you know if your friends have crypto wallets on their phones? I'm asking as I'm thinking that, maybe, this is what they were looking for. And, in case your friends did not have any wallet they started to check their YouTube history, to not have their superiors saying they did not make random check at least... And, maybe, if they had crypto wallets then maybe they would be looked with more suspicion...? I can't believe we are living such days.

I myself have not encountered this, but my friends warned me about customs checks.
They were asked to unlock their phone and checked which offers were installed. The customs officers checked which YouTube channels they subscribed to. I think that this is not related to cryptocurrencies, but when crossing the border it is better to remove cryptocurrency wallets from your phone and laptop.

I was not thinking about a hardware wallet but about a mobile wallet. Anyway, most important is to know what the law says. And even if the law would say "yes, declare crypto amounts greater than 10.000E" it's still a gray situation. Look at it in this way:

• you have an online wallet with more than 10.000E worth of BTC; as it is an online wallet, you don't have it with you. But you can still spend this amount in the country where you travel, right?
• you have a mobile wallet with more than 10.000E worth of BTC; (1) you don't declare it as you believe no custom officer would ever check your phone: if this happens (meaning your phone will not be checked) then you are free to spend the money; (2) you delete it and reinstall it once you are inside the destination country: again, nobody can stop you from spending; (3) you save wallet.dat and upload it on your email then delete the wallet: once you reach your destination you are free to spend as much as you want; (4) you delete and restore the wallet using a pass phrase etc.

In all above cases you are able to cross any border with more than 10.000E in BTC even if the law would say you must declare if you have such amount.

Now think about this: again, let's suppose the law coerces you to declare big amounts. And you declare you have 15.000E in BTC. What will happen? Or what happens if you actually have 15.000E fiat? Or 20.000E? Do they confiscate what's over 10.000E? Would they confiscate your BTC too (what's over 10.000E)?

Then about this: you have BTC worth of 9000E and the law says to declare if you have over 10.000E. In this case you don't declare anything, as you have only 9000E. But while you are in the new country BTC doubles and suddenly you have 18.000E. So you spend 18.000E maybe on some valuable physical goods and you are questioned upon returning: "how did you buy these since you had under 10.000E? Did you have more than 10.000E in BTC and you didn't declare?" -- and so on. Can you justify the provenience of the goods simply by saying that "BTC price doubled so I suddenly had more than 10.000 although on departure I had less"?

Finally, what if someone sends you BTC worth of 50.000E and you buy goods and, again, you are stopped when returning and questioned how you were able to buy the goods. What happens if you say you received this amount through a Bitcoin transaction? Will you be considered a criminal for being able to receive (and spend) such a big amount?

So you see, even if a law would say you should declare crypto amounts greater than 10.000E (and, so far, we did not find any such law), things are still in a gray area. You may easily avoid the law but even in cases where you would not avoid it you may look shady (take the case where you have 9000E in BTC and BTC price soars; you buy goods which value more than 10.000E then you are questioned how you were able to buy them since you did not declare anything upon departure, as you had less than 10.000E in BTC back then).

I see this as a bit exaggerated, because according to the literal meaning, I should declare if I carry a debit card associated to an account where I have $1M. But all the payments made with the card are registered, so I don't see much sense. Besides there is a trick to get around this. I carry a debit card associated with an account where I only have $0.30. But when I arrive in the country I make an instant transfer from a savings account at the same bank for $20k.


I think this is the crux of the matter, but at the time of a trial. At the border an agent can get you in trouble. If I have €1M in Bitcoin I don't really carry it, in the same way that if I have €1M in P&G shares I don't either, even though I can arrive in another country, click to sell them in an instant and have the money in my account available to spend or withdraw in ATMs (little by little obviously because there are withdrawal limits).

The thing is that unless the police suspect you for some reason, the seeds are very easy to hide and they will not find them. Instead of writing them down on a piece of paper, which is the typical thing they would look for if they suspected you, you could take a couple of books in your suitcase and have the seeds written on different pages.

There is no doubt that the officer will decide your situation, he will have all power to create problems for you if he wants.

My suggestion is that  you should not carry more than 0.4 BTC (aprox 10k euros) in your mobile phone.

If you are walking with your live savings in your hardware wallet, you need to hide the main seed using a passphrase.
https://www.ledger.com/academy/passphrase-an-advanced-security-feature

Just avoid problems for yourself.


Debit and cards are not supposed to be declared, not because there is no "will" to spend, but because the law only obligate you to declare your cash.
Only cash is supposed to be declared.

https://www.owlaw.com/german-customs-law/42609-fine-10000-euros-cash-when-travelling-to-germany/#:~:text=Any%20person%20travelling%20with%20cash%2C%20gold%2C%20cheques%20or,this%20must%20be%20done%20in%20writing%20in%20advance.

It is not related to your will to spend it, you should declare if you are carrying.

This law we can see in most countries in the world.

its about "intention to spend"

EG you dont declare your debit bank card because no one intends to spend their entire life savings in 2 weeks. but if you were going to do a YOLO in las vegas with life savings then yes THEN you should also declare your bank account as YOLO vacation money

when taking physical share certificates, gold bars, if you dont intend to spend them theres no reason to take them. and as such finding them on you is then questioning why you needed to take such an amount

so unless you intend to spend E10k  worth of crypto then there is nothing to declare.. but dont then use that as an excuse not to declare it and maybe get caught on the way back where they may find evidence you did spend more then e10k but not declare it

most of the time just declaring it is meaningless. its just paperwork (unless your on some watchlist).. you simply carry on with your journey
however caught not declaring but then spending raises a red flag

i went from UK, through europe, to asia a few times(and back)
they only cared about my physical value. not any digital(bank/crypto) however they did ask how much i spent a few odd times on the return

if it were a problem then dang elon must never be able to go abroad as his bank account has way more then e10k in bank account share portfolio apps, etc (same as all middle/upperclass people)

Now you see how ironic the law is? If you want to act honestly and declare a big amount you'd look suspicious. If you don't declare it and you get caught they'll rob your money and start a criminal investigation against you. So what to do?


Loooool, according tu EU law, yes. He would have been fine also if he tried to smuggle fake gold bars or ones with only 50-60% gold, even if he was smuggling them only to scam. But they were not 99.5% so he were safe =)))

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Looool I am sure that no custom officer would ever stop to ask you at the border if you are carrying a few gold bullions. It's perfectly normal to have (at least) one in each pocket =)))

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Fast food arbitrage? =))) Now that's an appealing idea I may try once!.

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Yup, that's right. It's possible they did not update the website after last update made by European Union. Besides, the French website mentioned digital currency, not cryptocurrency... anyway this could be a debate about semantics. In any case, it seems there is no specification for declaring crypto at the border...

@LeGaulois: I think it's like Heretik wrote: the local/national regulations can differ in details from the EU regulations, but must at least implement the restrictions of these. In this case, the local French law could be more severe than the EU regulation. However, it's possible that you're right (which would be a good thing) because just the customs regulations are one of the pillars of the EU as a customs union, and thus it's possible that they have to be completely harmonized (and thus, perhaps, a local court punishing you for not declaring your BTC could be overruled by an European one which considers this rule to be not compliant with the European one).

I saw, however, that also the Spanish customs site has a wider definition of the mediums of exchange which must be declared (Source):

That's true, yes. Note that the EU has a quite strict definition of the term "e-money", but not "digital money/currency". E-money is always tied to fiat. One would have to look into the small print of the French law (what I cited was only an English summary for tourists).

Note that digital currency may not necessarily mean cryptocurrency.

Either way this probably won't get properly defined until there is precedent. After all there's a huge spectrum of "physical transfer". Physical coins? Paper wallets? Hardware wallets? Software wallets? Your brain storing memorized passphrases? In practice the ability to effectively execute regulations stops at physical coins and paper wallets. No way for them to know how much a hardware or software wallet really contains. Or your brain. Or the book that you're carrying with you that has seemingly random words highlighted with marker.

Still a pity that they thought of vouchers. There goes my plan trafficking McDonalds coupons for fast food arbitrage.



Depends. The EU delegates the practical implementations of these rules to the local governments. What you then would have to do is prove in court that the state laws are breaking EU law which may not always be that easy but could be a fun exercise. Though I doubt that any of the local customs law are in conflict with EU law, as otherwise someone would have already sued. Someone always does.

Weird because it wasn't the case before. I see now a change has taken place in 2018 or 2019, so maybe...
I checked the french gov. website and it's not mentionned. https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F794?lang=en

I checked the belgium gov. website and nothing too about it. Then I went to Germany's website and still nothing.

And yeah I knew about the gold at >90%

@d5000
Doesn't matter a lot because the countries don't decide. They have to obey to the european rules. Countries are just the puppets of EU

And eu says
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/carrying-cash/index_fr.htm

In a justice court, you will win by saying you respected the EU rules instead the local ones.

I was interested in this question as well, so I asked ChatGPT

I took the example of France, and they pointed me to the French customs website. While the link provided by ChatGPT was dead, indeed there is a site where "digital currency" is mentioned:

https://www.douane.gouv.fr/fiche/obligation-declare-cash-securities-and-valuables


I wonder what "during physical cross-border transfers" means. Does that mean like some speculated in this thread, that it applies only to paper wallets and such? A mobile wallet or passphrase paper could however also be viewed as "physical".

Maybe if this is true, a solution could consist in carrying a password which allows you to access a server in your home country, where you can see your passphrase/wallet credentials? (This would be highly unsafe, however.)

(addition: of course this applies only to amounts of more than €10.000. But 0,5 BTC is already more than that ...)

I've got bad news for you, I'm sorry


No talk of cryptocurrencies or other intagible assets though.

(also no problem with gold in the form of powder, foil, coins with a gold content of more than 90% and gold bullion with a gold content of more than 99.5% :p)

@LoyceV is right.

The rule applies to gold as well, and I believe for each of us in EU.
Europe is a colander. Very rare are the moments you're checked while crossing a border. It happened only once with me.
In some countries you can't surely know you're crossing a border, you hardly see a custom office.

Guess how refugees travel...

As for the law, and I'm sure we all have the same. It concerns cash, cheques and alike, prepaid cards, and gold (no problem with silver or diamonds, :p)
Bitcoin is not concerned by this law

Ask the border patrol that is the only way you will get a definite answer but I think it would raise suspicions and would go against their rules of carrying more than what they normally allow into the country but it is not cash and they could treat it like a bank account you might be lucky. If they treat it like a bank account then  I do not see any reason why you would run into problems because they allow people into the country with more then $10000 all the time. If it was physical btc I think they would have a problem but btc is like money in a bank. I think the reason they do not like people bringing cash into the country is because it could be laundered.

I'm already within EU, and traveling to another country isn't very exciting. Nobody checks anything, kinda like crossing state borders within the US.

Back to declaring Bitcoin at customs: if you say you travel with 100,000 dollar worth of Bitcoin, even though you have no intention to spend it all, I wonder how they react. My guess is they find it kinda suspicious.

So if he would have carried gold of only 99%, he would have been fine?

Thanks for the link. However, there is no clear statement of the term cryptocurrency... In some fields (in banking, for example) it's written in plain sight that you are not allowed to use the account for incomes obtained from crypto. Therefore I'm thinking that if in some fields the term crypto (or cryptocurrency) is used, it should be also used in case it influences somehow passing the border...

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I never used a centralized exchange nor I ever will They are pure evil and you expose yourself to very high risks by using them. What I was thinking about was a possible situation when someone simply wants to have some backup money crypto with him and, in case he runs out of cash, he could go to a cash-in / cash-out crypto ATM and exchange some crypto with fiat.

The part about not going to spend funds from the wallet and if so there would not be any need to say anything to anyone -- what difference would it make even if they would question you (assuming that they (custom officers) would find out somehow that you're carrying a crypto wallet), then you'd tell them you don't intend to use it and still use it at a crypto ATM? Or at a local shop or restaurant which could accept crypto payments? Nobody would know that you made that transaction, right?

By the way, thinking about this a funny pic came into my mind:

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Just curious, what makes you feel safer in Europe, if you would be in this situation?


This would be even easier


That's a very good question... But, honestly, what do you think the outcome would be in case someone (caught by a customs officer with an undeclared BTC wallet holding more than the equivalent of 10.000E) would try to have this debate with the customs officer? It's hard to imagine the custom officer would have the necessary knowledge or the will to understand that, in fact, you don't physically have BTC, but you only poses private keys which allow you move some coins, if you want to.

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This is what I'm also thinking...

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I made some checks but not even Google is able to answer to this question. However, this is what I found about European Union Cash Controls:


(The part about gold bars may be also an answer for the example given by LoyceV about that Italian smuggling gold bars.)

From what I see, there is no reference to cryptocurrency.

However, even if there would be a reference inside the law (a law which I / we can't find at the moment) for being coerced to declare if you own BTC worth of more than 10.000E -- this would only raise more questions in my head: what happens if you have a wallet with BTC worth of -- let's say -- 8000E (thus you don't declare it when leaving the country) and, when you reach your destination, BTC price soars and your wallet is worth of more than 10.000E without you even thinking about it? They'll simply confiscate your money which value more than 10.000E due to a sudden price growth?

The main principle of the legislation says: "Everything that is not prohibited is allowed." (C) But this principle does not apply to employees of state bodies.
And then you can argue for a long time about whether you are obliged to say at the border that you know by heart the seed phrase from a cryptocurrency wallet that stores, for example, $ 10,000,000. In my country, common sense and personal safety should come first.

Every country has its own laws. It all depends on which country you are leaving and which country you are planning to visit. For example, you can import into France without declaring an amount not exceeding 10,000 euros. This includes not only cash in euros, but also all cash in any currency.

As far as I know, the "Ten Thousand Rule" applies to all EU countries; however, when entering the EU, it is advisable to clarify the procedure for transporting cash for a particular country.

There is a law in Europe that states: "Any natural person entering or leaving the EU and carrying cash of a value of €10,000 or more is required to declare that amount to the competent authorities of the Member State through which he/she is entering or leaving the EU."

But given that there is currently no single law regulating cryptocurrencies in Europe, I believe that the contents of a Bitcoin wallet do not need to be declared.

I don't think you have to declare the contents of your Bitcoin wallet. After all it's not different from having access to a bank account with a balance in excess of EUR 10,000,-.

It is also worth noting that when shares and securities are mentioned as "cash or equivalent assets" that have to be declared, they are referring to the physical certificates. Otherwise folks would have to declare their investment bank accounts.

I think they might be able to make a case if you were to carry physical bitcoins or paper wallets. But arguably even that would be on shaky grounds unless the material value exceeds the 10k. (ie. you can sell a physical security only once. You can cash out a cheque only once. But if you're kind of a dick you could sell the same paper wallet to multiple, unsuspecting buyers and even empty it out afterwards)

I've been wondering about this too, but I'm mainly curious if I'd have to declare Bitcoin hodlings when entering the US. Within Schengen/EU, I'm not so worried about it.

What if you just wrote 12 seed words on a piece of paper? What if you memorized the 12 words?

Gold isn't legal tender, and yet, this Italian was arrested smuggling 6 gold bars on Schiphol.

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A more fundamental question is: do you carry Bitcoin? One could argue you don't carry it: Bitcoin doesn't exist on an address, it exists only on the blockchain. How is that different than bringing my online banking credentials, which allows me to transfer more than €10,000?

I think it depends on what your intentions are in the country you're travelling to. If you plan to use (unlock) your wallet while you're there then yes.

I found a Swedish travel site that says:

https://www.tullverket.se/en/startpage/private/travelling/travelling/travellingwithcashandorequivalentassets.4.311bf4f016e69d6ea0d9df.html

I'm thinking bitcoin is closest related to cheques (and at that probably cashiers cheques or similar - when the cheque pays you - where it's money that represents legal tender but not officially issued by the government).

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If you're not going to unlock your wallet or spend funds from it then I think it's unlikely you have to tell anyone. I also think you'd probably be safe unlocking your wallet to send funds to an exchange in your home country, converting your crypto to that currency and paying using your bank card for things (but you may be safer holding funds on an exchange as you travel as it'll be considered similar to a bank account then).

I know there is a law which forbids leaving the country if you carry with you more than 10.000 euros. Actually, the law forbids avoiding to declare amounts greater than 10.000 euros and, if caught, the money are confiscated and a criminal investigation is started by authorities. As far as I know, a similar US law was issued in the past, but the amount in question was 10.000$.

However, my question relates to situation in Europe, not in US.

If any has legal knowledge, I'd like to know if you can leave the country (any European country) and enter in another (European) country while carrying with you a wallet containing BTC worth of more than 10.000 euros, without declaring it. Should a BTC wallet be declared at custom office? And what if that wallet is a software wallet... a mobile wallet? What happens if you don't declare it? They can't see that you have an app on your mobile phone, which is a BTC wallet, right? Even if a custom officer would be too zealous and search travelers' phones, looking for crypto wallets (which I highly doubt), a user can always just delete de app and reinstall it once arrived at destination, right? And there simply restore the wallet.

I don't know... is this illegal? Is it legal? Has anyone encountered with such situation? I am trying to understand how law works (or should work) in such cases. As far as I know, since a country does not accept BTC as legal tender, nobody should declare any crypto wallet he has on his phone nor if it is a hardware wallet as, in front of the State, he is not carrying money with him. Maybe I'm wrong though.

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