Topic: Should the forum stop advertising mixers? (Read 1493 times)

hey buddy, i think what charles said is true, why did you attack the mixer when it became one of the needs of bitcoin users, do you support the government which only claims the bad side of the mixer without recognizing how important it is user data privacy.  if this forum is seize just because it is one of the marketing media mixers then it has happened a long time ago.

I beg to differ.

Have you noticed two fire and brimstone threads from a couple of years ago started by a certain member of the Turkish community decrying there were no Turkish chosen to join the ranks of Chipmixers signature Troll fest have been necrobumped in the last couple of days.

Funny thing though - like with @OgNasty's warnings of CM, I warned about that group desperate to reap the mana from heaven wanting a share of the chipmixer profits and, over time, they've all ended up with negative trust feedback for one reason or another.

Greed. Pure and simple.

This is not directed at any member in particular but if there are members here that begrudge the manner in which some of those wearing particular signatures have behaved in the past, it is understandable from their perspective why they would find it difficult to feel any remorse for them at losing what has been a lucrative signature income over many years. Sadly, maybe some here would even raise a smile at the demise of Chipmixer and subsequent loss of signature campaign income for some participants (which is quite an awful thing to do in my opinion) but that is the nature of the forum. There are varying opinions across the boards and they all have a right to their opinion.

About your warnings to the community about Chipmixer, I did not know about you making them but if you sounded the alarm and it was ignored what more could you do? By what you are saying it seems you tried your best but others were not convinced. I do not know what happened in your circumstance related to warning others about Chipmixer but from what I have seen elsewhere it is not easy to bring forward a differing point of view in any subject/capacity when opposition is strong, especially if they are driven by financial greed to oppose.

You also have to accept some members that participated in the Chipmixer signature campaign thought they were promoting a privacy service and were shocked that money laundering allegations have been made against a service they promoted.

ChipMixer has been in operation for years now, and if the company was in violation of any rule, that should have been ironed out long ago. The issue of ChipMixer should not be a reason to end mixer's campaign in this forum; we just advertise their projects and are not direct employees of the company. Perhaps mixing is not bad at all; it is just to protect one's security. If a grocery store sells the product of a company that started their company from a theft fund and the government gets to find out that the money used to start the company was stolen, does that mean that the grocery store sellers who sold the product should be arrested? I think that's a no.

Unfortunately, there are many secrets and subtleties that go on behind the scenes. I feel like the CIA is here on the forum.

In any case, caution is always required. There is nothing to prevent the US government from taking legal action against the forum in the event of any violation of the law, but as far as I know, campaigns promoting mixers do not violate the law.

We all wish the best for the forum, I am sure that the forum management knows what to do.

We hope for the best when it comes to the forum, I hope there will be no issues facing it. Apart from a minority of people that use the forum for nefarious purposes, by far the majority of us all use the forum for legitimate use.

Please read my previous post in this thread and keep the discussion relevant.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61927868

Discussion about CM, gambling should be in other topics. Else if discussion continues to derail, I will lock this one.

Thanks guys!

I think you already answered that question yourself. "Signature promoters are being red trusted if they're aware the business they're promoting is scamming its clients, are they not?"

There is no evidence to prove that CM scammed their users, and there's my line.

So, according to you, the main reason is knowing about a scam vs not knowing about it? So, a person who promoted bitconnect not knowing that it's a scam is OK, but a person who had their suspicions and still did that is semi-OK? No sarcasm, I'm interested where the line is.


That's why I said that IF it is proven. I have no idea what was seized.


What's the percentage of regulated mixers vs regulated casinos? Are there even mixers that are registered as legal businesses and pay taxes?

Another difference is that most casinos should obey AML rules in their jurisdiction. People with large deposits have to go through KYC procedure and laundering through a casino is risky since they can take your money and claim whatever, like you've had more than 1 account, there was another connection from the same IP, you breached ToS because you used VPN, you haven't wagered enough to be able to withdraw, and so on. There are black sheep of the industry like 1xbit, but the majority of online casinos are licensed and try to be fair both ways, towards the client and the government.


The difference here is that money laundering is illegal everywhere. Bitcoin is illegal only in about 2% of the world (correct me if I'm wrong about the number) and I'd argue that no sane person would like to move to these countries, because they're either deep in debt and poverty (Nepal), or strict Muslim countries that believe in the narrative that bitcoin is haram. I'm sure you've noticed that bitcoin is currently banned in Iraq, Qatar, Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, Bangladesh, and Tunisia and there's one thing all this countries have in common - religion.

I see it differently. Generally, DT members tag other members who are aware of and actively promote fraudulent schemes and businesses that have the tendency to scam their customers (or at least have strong indications that it could be so). In my opinion, CM does not fit into that classification, and I'm not aware of any intention on their part to deceive their customers.

Also, where is it proven that CM wasn't deleting data as promised? As of now, all we know is that authorities have allegedly seized 7TB of data, but the contents of that data remain unknown. All other investigations detailed in the document, specifically those related to the mixer's source of use, rely on the analysis of public blockchain data.


Where is the difference? Online casinos also operate in a grey area since they are prohibited in numerous jurisdictions and can serve as a means for money laundering, particularly if they lack proper regulation (which is the case for many). Moreover, the use of privacy-focused cryptocurrencies like Monero is illegal in some jurisdictions, and even Bitcoin is illegal in certain parts of the world. Should we consider banning them as well?

I always cite section 230 when it comes to platform and content issues, Bitcointalk upholds the decentralization of thinking, and mixers advertise themselves primarily for privacy purposes something that we are losing because of the authorities imposing rules and compliance, it's up to authorities to prove that it's being used to money laundering.
Cryptocurrency supporters will always find a way to anonymize and free themselves of the hold of traditional banking

Bitcointalk is not here to stop or ban Mixers companies. If bitcointalk forum would ban companies for money laundering, or scamming, 1Xbit would have been the first company to be ban or stop operating in in the forum but bitcointalk forum can only give warning to all my sees to stay away from such company services provided by them and if anyone involved that is the person's cup of tea.

And not all the Mixers are bad and have the intention of doing bad thing. You can't use one man's bad character to generalize others. Chipmixer is bad does not mean that others are bad.

It depends. Signature promoters are being red trusted if they're aware the business they're promoting is scamming its clients, are they not? So, forum members actively work against fraudulent businesses. I'm not against mixers, on the contrary, but I feel like we've drawn a line in the sand when it comes to deciding what is fair and what isn't. IMO, if it's proven that Chipmixer wasn't deleting data as promised, it should be red trusted. Not that anybody cares at this point. It's not coming back.


It's a bit different because casinos are legal in most jurisdictions, until they start cheating clients. There's a number of bookies in my area and I could go there and place my bets, so promoting a casino in my country isn't illegal, even if someone gets addicted. Casinos are not held responsible for people's mental health, just as liquor stores aren't responsible for people getting drink, car sellers are not responsible for accidents and people driving their cars without a license.

Mixers on the other hand are in the gray area. They aren't illegal, but if people use them to launder stolen coins, the situation changes.

I begrudge them a little bit. Ignoring that many of them have attacked me for years for donating funds to NastyFans, claiming it was all sorts of things, meanwhile they’ve been promoting an illegal money laundering service for scammers here to clean their stolen funds for their own profits. Adding insult to injury, when I warned them the DOJ was closing in on Chipmixer, many responded by distrusting me on the forum’s trust network for sounding the warning about their promotion of illegal activity. Now that I was right and they were wrong, any apologies for their attacks or levied punishments against me for being right? Nope, just more insults. At the very least these people had bad judgement and sold out for money, assisting scammers on a site they claim to be trying to make safer.

Posting NSFW is against the forum rules but I remember projects related to porn industry allowed to promote their signature campaign in 2018 if I am not wrong so you're saying wrong info.

Scams are not moderated by forum so even who publicly post a scam scheme the thread will stay and only DT community will take actions against them which will serve as a warning, so don't expect theymos to stop any campaigns related to mixing services and the main purpose of mixing is to get the privacy.

 

You are deluded, you need help that only professional medical care can provide therefore I have excused your ludicrous outburst.

I never participated in the Chipmixer campaign, I cannot be sure but I might have applied 3 times and was not selected and that was maybe (need to check to be sure) as far back as 2020 and I did not bother applying again as I was overlooked.

I guess it still hurts you that you and your buddies from a particular local language board did not get selected to receive ridiculous amounts of money to wear a signature hence your anger and frustration and somewhat jubilation at what happened with Chipmixer.

Why are you against theymos, Darkstar_ and all those that wore the Chipmixer signature?

Why do you care so much, not even the original Chipmixer cult seems as concerned as you, you (username @JollyGood) were after all one of the troll pawns used by them to assassinate the reputation of many respectable members, kind of a more subtle version of the now defunct criminal user @lauda, but for sure you should also be investigated.

You might ask what your crime is in particular: Defamation, so that your overlords can monopolize their easy Chipmixer salaries...

shame on @theymos for letting a psychopath like you run rampant, give sweeping negative ratings to about 10,000 members and destroy the integrity of a once great forum by receiving artificial green trust & an appalling DT1 (Default Trust 1) status thanks to the collective votes of the Chipmixer cult...


#FBI #CIA #INTERPOL

Rather than run around in riddles can you at least explain what your point is?

I understand that you are aggrieved because you (and others you hoped) did not get selected on to the Chipmixer campaign and you are celebrating the demise of their website but your jealousy at others being taken on the signature campaign makes no sense to allude there was a deeper connection or collusion between the forum operators and Chipmixer.

You're conveniently forgetting that casinos will happily comply with subpoenas for customer information whereas mixers will not.


Not at all. You, a bitchy sockpuppet, accused him of being "misinformed." You were wrong. If you had something intelligent to say, you'd have said it from your main account.


And you're a sockpuppet in the opposite direction.

Y'all need to calm down and tend to your own lives.

If I were a member of an intelligence agency investigating the Chipmixer & Bitcointalk connection, I would be very curious to do a deep dive about several things:

1) The owner of the account @ChipMixer was warned many times about severe injustices surrounding Chipmixer campaign management, both in private and via threads like these:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/vile-chipmixer-bounty-abuse-probably-the-biggest-con-job-on-bitcointalk-5220060

2) The user @ChipMixer chose to take no action and to leave the entirety of the campaign solely to user @Darkstar_'s discretion.

3) @Darkstar_, a Filipino member, also happens to be the forum treasurer, so has won the total trust of not only Chipmixer organization but the forum's own administration as well...

4) @theymos, also warned many times about bounty campaign abuse, collusion between Chipmixer signature wearers to maximize their trust ratings and defame high quality independent forum members to monopolize revenue streams on Bitcointalk, remains completely silent about all these issues for years, also trusts @Darkstar_'s discretion 100%...

5) Chipmixer campaign looking very odd at times where huge parts of the forum and local sections getting 0 coverage while niche sections like Reputation / Meta where the Chipmixer signature cult loves to reside has almost wall to wall coverage thanks to the same cult members circle jerking their own threads and having very similar posting habits... Member Cryptohunter / bonesjonesreturns and few other aliases he used was brilliant in exposing this highly suspicious group, while some other users who also noticed these oddities left the forum a while ago...

All these things are very interesting to me and worth looking into, if only for intellectual curiosity and to get a better perspective on what's going on behind closed doors at Bitcointalk...

We splitting hairs. Either way, he's wrong.


Good question, what is your opinion? 
by definition, it is. But promoting a mixer is not promoting money laundering.


KYC is good for governments getting more taxes and cracking whip on common people, but not a good effort to get actual criminals.

Criminals laundering money do not play by the rules and for them any avenue to do it will serve same purpose with or without KYC, which can be faked and is done at their discretion.

I knew as I wrote in OP.

I only did not know any mixer seize with reports in which mentioned about Bitcointalk.


Interesting, could you share that doc link, please.

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I much appreciate some quality posts for the discussion

This topic is not investigation about ChipMixer so please don't do forensic analysis about them here.

Please do it there
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/chipmixercom-has-been-seized-5445014

I am surprised that many were surprised, as if it was the first time that a Bitcointalk ads-powered mixer has been seized.
The same story happened several years ago ----> https://www.zdnet.com/article/bestmixer-seized-by-eu-police-over-laundering-of-200-million-in-cryptocurrency/.


Bestmixer.io was a mixer who ran a signature campaign. However, we did not hear much of the analysis that took place now.


I do not know if it was a coincidence, but Bestmixer.io & CM was seized at the same at March 15

Well he might be an expert in what happened in the past but nowadays, depositing 100.000 USD would automatically trigger KYC in almost all bitcoin casinos.

The fact that there is a low limit without verification is not so rare either. On the Spanish lottery website https://www.loteriasyapuestas.es/es you can deposit and buy lottery tickets online up to a limit without uploading your ID or Passport as verification. I don't remember the exact limit but I'm sure it's no more than 500 euros. You can deposit 100 without the full KYC, and another 100, until you reach the limit and then it won't let you deposit without uploading the documents. The same applies if you win a jackpot. You deposit 10 euros, you win 5.000 euros and you can't withdraw it unless you complete the KYC. They do this even though you deposit with a card with your name on it.

So bitcoin casinos letting you deposit without KYC for low limits despite having KYC and wagering requirements in their ToS is not that uncommon.

He's promoted a lightning Roulet website a few times in the past, so I guess that's where his expert knowledge comes from... 🧐

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Getting back on topic - I still recall the ones who had warned or voiced concerns that mixers are, was or is a grey area were DT distrusted and ridiculed.  Looks like it's happening again.

I wonder how many now former (signature advertising) bearers of Chipmixer are quietly deleting their posts (or just going dark for a while) ??

🤔

I don't follow you. For starters, most of them have mandatory KYC when your account exceeds 2,000 USD and it counts the sum of deposits or winnings. I mean: you deposit 10 USD and you win 2.000 USD for a jackpot and they ask for KYC, so I don't know where you get your argument from.

Do you gamble in bitcoin casinos at all?

That's all BS. As long as they don't request KYC before depositing, it's great for money laundering. Lose 100k in 9 casinos, and win a million in another. The 9 casinos don't know who you are, and in the one casino you go through KYC and end up with a million bucks legally won "because you were incredibly lucky". Casinos don't mind because they profit from it, and they only ask KYC because they don't like paying.

Most campaign managers place a legal notice under their signature campaigns explicitly saying that they are not affiliated with the site disclaiming any liability in regards to it. And naturally, this extends to the participants as well, though it would be slightly relieving if this was explicitly spelled out too.

Most of them have explicit anti-money laundering rules written into their ToS. Wagering requirements prevent it.


Interesting. I have looked at the unoficcial rules and I see that advertising an illegal service is not in any of the rules listed, 11 talks about linking to illegal trading sites and 17 about trading goods on the forum. But linking to illegal service sites is in murky territory to say the least, in my opinion.

What about casinos? If we want to toe that line of thought because we also get that accusation of money laundering from that angle too.

Well, I ain't sure that's the way it's. Look at a fresh [Bounty]👑PornAl bounty camping 👑 already staring us in the face.

Why should the forum stop allowing advertisment that has to do with something that has to do with increase privacy when the forum is all about privacy with it's key promotion in Bitcoin. With this whole chipmixer situation, we're acting like this is a new development to the forum. Several mixees has been seized by the authority in the past so what's new here. More mixers will come up in the future and the forum shoudn't stop them from advertising here through signature campaign since that's not officially linked with the forum like the paid ads (that has been stopped by theymos). Lets not forget this mixers hardly get any media to advertise themselves in on the outside world as they're canceled by Google ads and other crypto advertising platforms might be too expensive to use.

Signature aren't moderated by the forum as such the forum administrators  aren't responsible for whatever outcome comes from the signature promotion. At the same time, the signature promoters aren't responsible for the means in which the platform they promote are been used. Will you hold a casino signature promoters responsible for the addict problem gotten from gambling, NO so as such they shouldn't be be held liable for the fraudulent activities carried out by the money launders that use their promoted platform chipmixer.

The issue is chipmixer has been accused of breaking multiple laws in multiple countries.

People rented signature space.

bitcointalk did not stop it.

Do I think this means action against bitcointalk no.
do i think this means action against signature campaigners no.

But do I think it could happen yes it could.

Hope it does not. As I do not begrudge people that did it.

There is a difference but facebook faced an government action by allowing so called bad actors influence the 2020 election.

The reality is mixers are used to hide your identity thus they will always be subject to government interest.

Do I think people are getting busted or sued for running a chipmixer signature and getting paid btc for years no. Is it possible maybe.

No he's not. He's saying its the first time he personally read documents that mention Bitcointalk. He's misinformed about his own knowledge base?


Wut? Is wearing a signature advertisement a promotion or not?


Not really. They serve two different functions. Besides, most casinos (including the ones advertising via signature on this forum) enforce some kind of AML/KYC standard to be employed at their discretion. That means they are likely to comply with federal requests for information about accounts whereas mixers will not. That's a pretty big difference.

This is as long as the bitcoin is not illegal and the btc mixing platforms. What if a country (or a number of countries) passes a law banning this? I understand that users from these countries will have problems, but if something like this is adopted in the country where this forum is hosted? Will the forum have to constantly move from one country to another?

New changes in the world have begun. It seems to me that this precedent from ChipMixer is a serious reason to think about what the future holds for everyone and what can be done about it. In terms of penalties for the use of mixers and their use, as well as advertising on the forum.

At the moment, the issue raised by OP for discussion in this topic, I consider resolved, and there can be no question of any ban on advertising mixers. Because from a legal point of view there is no violation of laws (as far as I know). If there are any bans, I'm sure the administration of the forum will react to this.

The government is anti bitcoin and are using every trick in the book to discourage bitcoin. I think bitcoin mixers are about to face a lot of heat. There’s nothing stopping the government from going after other bitcoin mixers. Private cryptocurrencies like Monero and Dash may face similar problems in coming days.

The forum has always taken care of itself, illegal activities and scams are handled with red tags on the account. I’m concerned about the extent to which the government is willingly to take this case, if they decide to go after the signature participants (which I doubt they will), bitcointalk data will have to be shared with them for this purpose to be achieved.

I don't know anything, to be honest I was shocked by what happened in the last day here. It's sad that in the end I realized that chipmixer has been forcibly discontinued by the authorities. RIP to Chipmixer. 

At this point I really get the impression that the government doesn't want to let people have better financial privacy. I'm not going to blame chipmixer for providing the best service for anyone who needs privacy, but unknowingly or knowingly chipmixer has become the best choice for those who want to carry out transactions that violate the law including cases of money laundering, terrorist financing or something like that. But I believe privacy is the main idea, but user's greed has really misused it for illegal purposes.

To the OP's question, I don't think the forum is responsible in this case and I'm not sure if admin would stop such campaign forever. The situation is almost the same with some other cases as has been said in some other posts.

If you have to worry about that, then you also have to worry about everything you write absolutely *anywhere* on the internet.  Any views you express online are likely cached and logged somewhere.  'Big Brother' is watching.  And when someone in power doesn't like what you are saying, expect them to come swiftly for you.  That's the world we live in nowadays.  If we don't defend our right to privacy, we are defenceless to the will of tyrants.

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It's a resounding 'no' from me. 

Bitcoin is not illegal and neither are Bitcoin mixing platforms, no one should feel they are doing something shady when interacting with any of them. So, no, we should not be worried about what we post here.
Of course if you're sharing illegal content and violating forum laws and government laws, such user should be worried, but others should be allowed to interact freely without limitations.

Chipmixer is the hot topic this week and everyone seems to have a strong opinion on the matter.  It is obvious the government are hell bent on taking down bitcoin, and cannot be in favor of bitcoin mixers. This was going to happen at some point. It’s interesting that Chipmixer wasn’t accused of scamming but on money laundering charges. My major concern right now is the sanity of the forum, I see this forum as very private because nobody uses their real names or pictures and there is absolute freedom of speech. Imagine my surprise to see a old bitcoin post being referenced in the article. I think a more concerning question is “should we be worried about what we post here?”

That's written in government's press-release document. The PayPal account with the name “MINH NGUYEN,” email address - [email protected]. He was using [email protected] to help hide his involment in the ChipMixer scheme. Phone number +84982468446 was used as the recovery phone number for [email protected]. At the same time, this phone number was used as the recovery phone number for [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected]

Or people advertising anything related to bitcoin in a country where bitcoin is banned.

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It's sickening that people are considering things like ordinals and mixers to be the public enemy #1, and meanwhile nobody is doing (or even talking about) anything about heists that steal coins from people on a daily basis, or all of the misinformation about crypto being bleated to millions of people daily.

Usually every platform has their own rules and regulations, banning mixer doesn't have anything to do over here, let say they chooses to promote their project here on Bitcointalk but Bitcointalk doesn't have any power over their privacy, policy or that concerns any regulation with mixer. Banning them have no effects on the forum, I have seen many projects that scam people that doesn't mean the forum scammed people so those projects were only flagged but Bitcointalk did not ban them.

What the hell did @charles-tim say? after all, what he said was right and he actually had a point about it.

     I don't know if you are just making a big deal out of what you are saying, what he said is not out of context but it is still related to the topic you did, or maybe you just didn't understand what Charles said?

What makes you think it's an alternative account?
Does anyone know if he was arrested or not? Do the local authorities cooperate in such crimes or not?

- Yamane

You could use the same analogy for people who have casino signatures. Online gambling is not legal in a lot of places.
On that note, how many casinos that people were wearing sigs for cut and ran with peoples money vs mixers?

How many mixers had / have complaints against them for taking seizing peoples funds vs mixers?

As for the amount of data, 7tb is a lot until you figure that the blockchain is 500+gb 2 copies of that and you are at over 1tb

-Dave

Just Tor itself isn't safe; I've used it in the past and accessed onion links in the so-called deep web just out of pure curiosity. There's still a chance to get caught even if you use a proxy or VPN in combination; it just makes the process harder and more time-consuming.

I'm not against Bitcoin mixers, but it was expected that such a tool would be used for malicious purposes. The average Joe who uses, holds, or trades Bitcoin wouldn't need a coin mixer. Bitcointalk is not liable for a service that is being advertised, as long as it delivers the service it offers.

That makes no sense, "hotpassion" was selling Paypal funds for Bitcoin. I always assumed CM was loaded in Bitcoins. Why would they sell small amounts of Paypal funds?

Almost anything can be used for good and for evil. Tor browser for instance is used by many scumbags, but also helps dissidents in their fight for a better country. Knives, guns, cars, hammers, privacy, everything can be used to hurt people. That doesn't mean good people should give up their rights and freedom.

We don't know what happened next because theymos haven't announced anything about this and I don't think the forums will ban advertising mixers here because somehow it's not being moderated about fraud or other illegal acts.

Usually mixer transactions are just for privacy but once it was only used by the right people, but basically we really don't know whether there is more money laundering because there are lots of hacks so the mixer is a solution for them not to be detected?

subconsciously we are now regulated by the government so much that privacy becomes difficult for us.

You're misinformed. Posts on bctalk have been brought up in many legal cases, including several high profile ponzi scammer cases. Yet ponzi scammers are still here and not banned, even one you quoted in OP.

Nobody promoted money laundering. You're hypocrisy is just wow as you walk around promoting a casino which has been magnet for money laundering long before mixers ever existed. .

Step 1, get a dunce hat.
Step 2, put it on.

No not without a court order. If they decide that, they should move to end sig campaigns all together.

Bad people use mixers, bad people use casinos, bad people are everywhere. Why not shut it all down?? 

If we take into account your reference to scamming then we should also stop advertising ICO agendas, we should stop promoting any altcoin project that is mostly going to be doomed in the future, or we should probably ban the casino’s who can get shut down or could turn out to be scammer's.

If you also visit the bounty section then there are ton of bounties which are leaving the forum without any payments to the participants.

Exchangers- they are driving crazy these days. Many of them are used, talked, shared and published on forum, what about them? They are ticking bombs all the time!

If we started counting back, then we may just need to keep development and technical related threads and meta. Rest of the forum can be deleted. 

I do not know, I am not a lawyer, but I do not think that there is an explicit law that makes mixers illegal, and therefore how will you hold accountable someone who promoted the site before it was seized.
The file listing the details of the case contained more than 60 pages and did not mention at any thing about chipmixer signature.
They don't need to, the number of people who visit Speedsheet periodically will narrow their search.
It is not the first case that Bitcoin Mixer has been seized and none of the participants in the signature campaign have been charged

Whether the forum decides to stop allowing mixers to advertise is not as important as should all mixers be considered illegal? Is every transaction ran through a mixer an illegal transaction? We all know that people use mixers for illegal activity but are all transactions a mixer incurs an illegal transaction? So, why are mixers needed? Legit question IMO. The days of privacy are basically over.

What about sinbad mixer, are they next?

I think I'm going to shine my "rejected applicant" badge I got (along with a blocking by the DT1/2 Trolls who were actively singing the Chipmixers' praises).

I wonder how many of those vocal advocates of Chipmixer are about to fall silent?

I've already seen one person has deleted their entire tread concerning Chipmixer and hidden it in the archive section...

🧐

Wait what? Is this the reason why I cant find any NFSW images anymore in off-topic secti...  oh nvm *clears throat*



I think this is one of the reasons why theymos decided to close the ads auction, because it's not easy to check if auction participants are legit or not. Especially mixers, it's hard to tell, since it's in a grey area, same like porn and gambling. Though, there are many people as well took the advantage of using it. I used Bitmixer.io regularly in the past and all of our transaction went well.



Damn I was the participant there! You dug down so deep

TOR is probably not as safe as you’d think. I don't know how, but I am pretty sure I read the news about people getting caught even though they used TOR. Caring about your privacy don't make you a privacy expert in an instant.

In fact, the greatest privacy experts out there know that the best way to remain anonymous is staying offline. Means, not playing this game at all.

They won't go after BTT unless it is in their interest to do so. I don't think we are there yet.

Just want weigh in here. Mt Gox, FTX and other scammy shit doesn’t promote here. Probably they promote for a few months but that’s it. Mixer is widely promoting here through signature campaign. Somehow this is scary in case US will create an unfavorable analogy that forum is being use to advertise mixers that involves on money laundering.

I’m not against mixers promotion but it’s just hard to argue with authorities if somehow more mixers becomes involved and seize. I’m sure Bitcointalk will be subjected for investigation as common place which this mixer hangout for promotion.

Do you think Chipmixer would have the details of those that accessed their website with TOR browser? Just wondering because their customers care so much about privacy and wouldn't access the site with legit IP. Besides, I don't understand why forum users are worried about BTT appearing on a government document issued by the FBI. Chipmixer was promoted here by top reputable members, yet that doesn't make chipmixer, bitcointalk. The FBI are concerned about the illicit actions that chipmixer carried out with its customers and the huge amount of money they've mixed without traces. Why did the government appear now they mixed about $3b worth of transaction. If they freeze this forum how much money would they realize? who is their target? the government is after money nothing else. Chipmixer is not licensed that means they've gotten nothing monetary from the mixer yet they are making lots of money with the US citizens. And break laws, its allegedly used to rinse ransomware funds, fraud stores funds, dark web transaction etc. What matters is that these allegation doesn't make Nguyen guilty, until he is tried in court. Until then we'll know the faith of Chipmixer.

Theymos will give everybody's IP's on a platter.  Nobody else is more precious than my own skin. That's a common algorithm for the humans. It is called selfishness. Me first everybody else later. Theymos will also act according to this code especially when they make him face a jail sentence. He will chicken out and I don't blame him. I would do the same thing.

I would be a little worried if I was wearing the chipmixer signature as the US government and its laws will basically allow advertisers/celebrities to be charged in a court of law for advertising a service.

Look at FTX and the celebrities they're going after.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ftx-crypto-investors-sue-founder-sam-bankman-fried-celebrity-promoters-rcna57453

Is it considered the same? I am not going to pretend to be a lawyer but looks like the government will try to make their point by any means necessary. Would theymos have to comply if the goverment steps in and asks for IPs of all who wore a chipmixer signature?

This press-release document doesn't really say anything harmful toward bitcointalk. Also, there is no direct mention of promoting it from someone other than NGUYEN himself. There is no mention of Chipmixer signature campaign, nor the mention of signature campaign manager.
Seems his alt account was hotpassion
Also, there is mentioned that: He was also posting at BlackHatWorld forum.
According to this document:
Bitcointalk - popular bitcoin message board.
Reddit - social media platform.
BlackHatWorld - forum.

I don't think this forum, nor its participants are in any danger and if there is something wrong, owner should receive the warning message. It's a public forum after all, this forum does nothing illegal, nor promotes anything illegal.

No

So you're saying I should keep track of all changes to all laws in all countries on the planet?

It would be stupid If they didn't. I mean they knew that a payback day would eventually come. How are they going to pay back? By selling out those who used their services. D'uh.

That should be a lesson learned for everybody. Everything you do on the internet gets logged. Everything. If someone says otherwise, he is lying.

Such shame, we need to do a "walk of shame" for those advertising such services, I guess their argument is "if someone kills a man with a knife, should we stop the sales of knives?" Yes if the knife has grooving on it, we should because it was designed to kill people faster.

Are mixers good for privacy? Yes they are perfect privacy tools for illegal activities. I wonder how many people used that service, 7 TB of data, lol it looks like they logged everything.

This makes me remember what I read about mixer some months ago on a Chainanlysis report:


If centralized mixers would will fully follow KYC and AML rules, that make them not to be a mixer.

My point is that nothing concerns this forum, I wonder why the government are not going for google and many scam ads they are advertising. Businesses should have their own terms of service, this would be what would help them against sanctioning or ban. Assuming Chipmixer have been going for only legit transactions and obviously stated it in their rules, many funds that belongs to hackers and scammers might have been seized while many scammers will not use them for the fear of their money not to be seized. This would have helped and a day like yesterday may not come to unfavorable Chipmixer.

Nothing concerns this forum as long as they are not doing anything illegal, we are far better than many social media and many other forums. Our signature campaign is far better than google ads and many other ads. I do not see this as any problem at all and I know anything about this does not concern theymos or any other admin, this forum is not even having ads, but just individual member signature campaign. Then why someone would just suggest what is not when nothing like US regulators saying anything about this forum and mixers, not pressurizing any admin not to advertise mixers.

Mixers are good, but just that some bad actors are using it too, but I believe there are somethings that can be done to let only the good people that are privacy concerned to be the only one using it, or significantly reduce the bad actors from using it.

The forum does not directly advertise mixers, and has banned the participation of mixing services in forum advertising auctions for a long time. The forum is likely covered by section 230 when it comes to what its users chose to advertise on their signature.

In the US, a money transmitter license is required as mixers are classified as a "money services business." No mixer has one, as far as I know...

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download


Sorry to put it so bluntly but anyone advertising a mixer that doesn't have this license is advertising an illegal business (if the business is servicing US-based customers, anyway).

Funny, its actually been the case since May 2019, but either nobody here knew this or the ones who did never said anything about it.

Not saying the forum administration needs to make changes either way, but individuals participating in mixer sig campaigns should at least be aware of this.

Some mixers signature campaigns (particularly Chipmixer) have contributed to raising the quality of posts in the forum greatly. They have been going on for more than 5 years and some of the best accounts who were making posts wore their signatures. Therefore, indirectly, those mixers and through signature campaigns contributed to making this forum especially valuable.


are you sure? This is one of the signature campaigns for a porn site Xotika.TV Signature Campaign - Earn Bitcoins the sexy way!

Where did you read this? I check there are 2 porn campaigns in bounties, not sure if there's another more:
1. [ANN] [BOUNTY] ? VOGOV ? LOVE CRYPTO AND PORN?
2. Dogeporn.finance cum with us [Bounty] 💰🕵🏻‍♂️ 30 BNB in DOGEPORN 🥳

It's not about the project is scam or not, but when someone break the rule of the forum, usually the moderators will give a punishment. Just like how forum not allowing altcoins giveaway, the user will get temporary ban for doing it.

I don't see any reason why forum shouldn't allow to advertise about mixer, if you only look at the bad side, any project will have a bad side no matter how good it is. Just like gambling, do you think gambling addict doesn't cause harm to the addict's family and not increasing of criminal rate?

So should the forum stop advertising gambling?

Is it only for known-paid campaigns, or what if the payment agreement is done outside the forum? Since the signature and avatar space has been provided for granted, where it is free to add any content the user likes with or without payment.
What if bans will be handled per user, anyone with mixer ad content on their profile attributes will get perma-ban?

ChipMixer worked for almost six years, and only now has it been established that "they were not in accordance with the law". if the authorities did not recognize it for all that time, why would this forum be responsible for it?
Finally, did anyone from the investigation ask for any information from the people involved in the work of the forum?

should this forum take responsibility for all the crap that has happened so far, starting from MtGox to FTX, many discussions were held about all this.

Signature campaign of Chipmixer have been paused or ended, actually Bitcointalk is not advertising yet with chipmixer right now after the website have been seized and not appeal from Chipmixer feedback about what their problem facing. I think not impact yet with Bitcointalk forum because the mistake coming from Chipmixer and this forum as third party for advertising only due they have legalize transaction when first time building.

Better waiting with Chipmixer respond and they will try appeal what happen with their website because looking on current signature campaign they have spent much money until running more than three years.

Yes, there will never be a request like that. The worse scenario would be US blacklisting Bitcointalk.org if theymos refuses to comply whatever directive they may give, just as Russia did.


I want to understand the distinct in your analogy here.
Forum stopped advertising mixer but allows individuals to advisertise mixers in the same forum. I think nothing changed.

Seem very detailed in finding NGUYEN. I couldn't even understand the terms they are saying. For all, we know NGUYEN is also an alias.

But they are monitoring the forum? Yes, this could be serious and might not end well for us if they are going to do something to bitcointalk. The government is looking for ways to really grab the neck of the crypto industry. If for now they are just targeting the advertising of a mixer, they will also be finding faults in the casinos to include it.

It is weird, but this reminds me of what the mainstream media does, which is to bring up a social media post made by some random nobody in the midst of a story about X, and the post will have an extreme opinion about X, giving the impression that it's the general sentiment about X--in other words, they amplify the opinions about subjects they're obviously attempting to take apart when no such amplification is justified.

I haven't read the entire thing, since I'm not handing out cookies or anything else to the DOJ, and that link ends in "download".  But I guess they've got all the major money laundering operations taken care of, so they can devote their time on....wait, is there any data on money laundering with crypto?  With crypto mixers?  I'm not saying there isn't, just that I haven't read anything about it, the extent of the problem, or if there's been any prosecution of criminals engaged in such activity.

Not yet even up to that.

...want US to ban privacy because of criminal activities. We should not forget this:

Mixers provide security to users who wants privacy and these mixers themselves did not commit any illegal activity, they provided a platform for users to have privacy for their transaction and governments around the world do not like the idea of having privacy and if some propaganda machine says that BTCitcoin or any mixers is used only for illegal activities then that is not a fact.

You are wrong, this is not the first time Bitcointalk is mentioned in a legal case, to refresh your memory it was mentioned in the silkroad case because Ross William Ulbricht pitched the idea here and this wont be the last time it will be mentioned as long as the cryptocurrency market is alive.

Forum isn't advertising anything anymore though it promoted mixer back in the day. We, users are promoting mixers. However, I don't think theymos is going to put restrictions on this. He supports freedom, privacy I think. He has also shared a tutorial for a decent mixing. I don't think it's going to happen unless jury force him to do so.

Campaigns happens to be one of the things that ain't regulated in the forum, it is besides a project like the lost of others in the bounty board that have been scamming people and a re still scamming people. Mixers are just some way to ensure those who wish to tighten privacy by removing the links to track bitcoin transactions are no more. It has got nothing to do with scam other than render a service to all categories. How you choose to use it is up to you and no fault of there's.

When it comes to money laundering, the idea of cryptocurrency have been accused to have been about money laundering and fraudulent transactions. Do you propose cryptos are banned or stopped based on that fact as has been projected by the government and anti-cryptos?
We can't have that and won't have it.

The FBI and other law enforcement agencies are still carrying out investigation therefore it will be too early to conclude the Chipmixer issue. Every product or service can be abused. It is not wise to just stop mixers advertisement because other users in countries outside of the US are not affected by this findings or investigation. The forum is an international platform that is not governed by the laws of any country that is why it might not stop the advertisement of mixers. Mixers are not generally bad but the wrong application of this service is what is giving this service a bad name.

Just stop if it's the last solution. But I don't think forum are going to stop it just because mixer services provide an opportunity for anyone to increase privacy. Abuse of the service should be excluded even if some people use the mixer to obfuscate their bitcoin transactions for prohibited things, the conditions should be the same as when bestmixer was confiscated. This means that the forum doesn't stop advertising other mixers.

So far I haven't gotten any red flags about the existence of a mixer on bitcointalk especially to anyone using it legally.

You said it yourself, this is US jurisdiction, not China. So there will never be a request like that. 

I can quote something for you, but I don't know what to answer because all the decisions are with the admin.

About privacy


From the above statement, I think we all know that bitcointalk complies with applicable laws in US jurisdictions. If the US government asks bitcointalk to ban that type of advertising then I think there is a possibility for the admin to approve it.

If the administration cannot even create a cyber security and privacy board, then good luck convincing them to take the more laborious action of identifying and banning accounts that support mixers.

Ps. If any admin is reading this, then go approve this (linked) request. It's nearly unanimously agreed on!

I don't think it will be profitable at all because Mixer are not a bad thing  itself but offcourse you can use it for bad purpose so. its very bad that Bitcointalk mentioned in this document but these mixers are also available in google search, advertised in twitter and other social Platform then all these platform will ban Mixers Advertising?

Unofficial means many things can be added.

theymos is flexible and he can change his policy in forum anytime like he stop ads banner auctions months ago.

I don't know but it is serious. I proposed it as a preventive solution for the forum. Theymos and Cyrus will decide. Maybe they must have an internal meeting of admins and global moderators and maybe moderators too.

Holy shit this is pretty serious. It is mindblowing to read a gov paper mentioning btt.



He must have hit a nerve with that post. Gov people lost their shit it seems.  How dare you promote bitcoin as an alternative to the USD? and you say it is even better?

I guess they log everything we say in this forum. Shiet.

---

To answer your question... I think it is a decision for the admins. If they think advertising mixers would be dangerous for the forum people, then they should ban it. I don't think there is such danger, yet.

Stop posting shit please. Don't teach me about theory, things on paper.

I am talking about prevention, not want to see the forum seize.

Do you know the number of scam ads that google may have? Ads can be for scammers.

Mixers are meant for maintaining privacy, but some bad actors can take advantage of that. Mixers should have their own rules and regulations, nothing concerns Bitcointalk.

Mixers are not prohibited by law.

Many mixers were seized but it is a first time I read documents mentioned Bitcointalk directly like this by Chipmixer seize.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1574581/download

Should forum admin consider to stop all campaigns related to mixers?

I know forum is against porn campaigns so how about mixers after this fiasco?