Topic: Silk road is down... Gambling guys next? (Read 2829 times)

They got Capone on Tax Evasion - when they can't arrest you for one law they will find something else.

If they want to shutdown a Bitcoin site that hasn't broken any other laws, they will apply it selectively here even though they don't apply it to Chuck E Cheese. After all, Chuck E Cheese has lawyers, lobbyists and friends in government and we do not.

In the US, a common formulation is "anything of value."  So whether you're betting dollars, doughnuts, or tea-cakes, it comes under the law.  The authorities aren't necessarily very consistent about enforcement, though.  An example is a children's restaurant chain, Chuck E. Cheese's, which runs blatant games of chance offering prizes of value. There is no way this is legal, at least in jurisdictions that ban other games of chance run for profit, but you don't see the police knocking down their doors.  This is pretty silly, considering that if the addictive potential of gambling is why it's banned, it's utterly absurd to let children gamble.  It would be like banning cigarettes for adults, but then ignoring cigarettes marketed directly to children.

(Not that I think either is a good idea.)

In the UK, the government doesn't consider it money or currency however the laws regarding gambling do not revolve around the concept of money, they revolve around the concept of "Money's Worth".

That means, anything with value - the UK Gambling Commission has confirmed they consider Bitcoin to be "Money's Worth" and therefor any UK based Sites, Developers or Business will need to be properly licensed.

I assume there will be other countries taking a similar stance who don't care whether Bitcoin is money or not, they care if they can collect revenue through taxing gambling. I can only assume gambling laws here don't mention money specifically so that people aren't using tokens or cakes, etc in place of money to skirt laws. I can't imagine we are the only country who has done this.

apparently it is considered a "virtual currency"

I'm lazy and don't have your frame of reference.  Could you link to the previous discussion please?

Bitcoin is not recognized as real money, right?

and many bitcoin gambling sites not allowing US citizens to gamble with them just because of this I dont think they will do like silk road with these sites

From the blockchain. Some sites even have nice address: 1dice etc.
Pretty obvious to see it is gambling.

How could FBI collect the evidence?

The possession and use of small quantities of drugs are decriminalized (but still penalized) in places like Portugal, but SR and its ilk would still be illegal as clearly the site was being used for trafficking commercial quantities. 

In regards to online gambling, the sites I've seen make no attempt to verify a player's age or even offer a simple warning that under 18/21/whatever is not allowed.  Then there's money laundering laws, operating a gambling site without a license (in whatever country the site is hosted), etc.  I hope the sites involved are hosted in countries that don't care about online gambling and that investors' money is stored off site and automatically returned should something happen.

Actually, there are many places drugs are decriminalized, and many like pot are entirely legal.  The United States is not the world.

Gambling is legal in many places. On the other hand, illegal drugs are not.

Rumor lies, bitbook just said its a server outage. Just a crack head trying to spread fear, be calm.

Rumor says FBI just took down Bitbook?

I was about to say this. lol.

Only site I know of that "took measures" is coincidentally the biggest of them all.
In May Satoshidice closed to US players and blocked US ip's "pro-actively to protect those involved in the project". And shortly after that sold the company to an unknown buyer. It's interesting to note, they are not located and have nothing to do with US yet still felt to take this measure.

Bitcoin may not be a "currency," (although it may be), but it is certainly legally "money" by most relevant definitions.

I'm living in the past

Legally, it isn't. Fundamentally, it is.

What happened to BTC not being a real currency?

They aren't (they being the U.S. government).  So far, that's just speculation.  They have already gone after lots of fiat sites, especially poker sites and sportsbooks.  So far as I know, no law enforcement has to date gone after any Bitcoin gambling sites.

Because they don't have a license and/or are serving US citizens.

Well, there are tons of online fiat gambling website, I don't see why they are targeting bitcoin gambling site first?

Additionally FinCEN has basically nothing to say about what laws states pass, and each state has its own opinion on the matter.  Further, the DOJ has its own opinion on the matter, and has been very broad about what it claims is prohibited by law.

Until a court has actually said something, nothing anyone says on the subject is anything but opinion.  FinCEN carries a lot of weight when discussing the specific laws and regulations it carries out.  However, outside that domain, their opinion carries no more weight than mine or, for that matter, that of the DOJ or of the states.

It also has nothing to say about what is legal in countries other than the United States, except insofar as the U.S. government can exert considerable pressure to force the banks of other countries to conform to the U.S. view of legality.

My info might be old, but in the past this was discussed with current fincen regulations and it was determined that bitcoin gambling was not illegal.

FICEN says it has value and it money. So it is illegal.

Your statement is 99% accurate. I would just want to add something more to it. Cailvin Ayre and the rest of the pack were indicted for sports betting. Last year DOJ came out with a resolution that the Wire Act only covers sports betting and does not include online casinos and poker rooms. This was neccessary for the Federal legislation to pass the online gambling laws in Nevada, Delaware, NJ, and pending in a few other States. Given the fact that UIGEA concerns only financial institutions, theoretically as of today there isn't a single law that bans online casinos or poker rooms out of US (except for the said 3 States which have clear legislation).

However, the same cannot be said for sportsbooks. They are illegal by US laws and could be prosecuted due to the Wire Act (taking bets on sports events through telecommunications/internet).

There's nothing explicitly outlawing "Bitcoin gambling."  However, most states have laws against running a gambling operation and taking a rake.  These generally consider gambling to be for "anything of value," and anyone arguing Bitcoin doesn't have any value is not only FOS, but not going to be very convincing to a jury.  After all, why would anyone take a cut of something with no value?

The feds have maintained the position that the Wire Act prohibits Internet gambling operations (gambling operations defined as above), but it is far from certain this is actually true.  In fact, the recent Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA), the cause of "Black Friday," only prohibits bank transactions connected to "unlawful gambling" operations.  So Bitcoin-only sites don't have to worry about that particular law's banking prohibitions.

So while there's no clear federal law prohibiting online gambling per se, people like Calvin Ayres (Bodog) are fugitives at present as a result of federal claims that there are.  On top of that, individual states do have much more clear laws prohibiting "unlawful gambling."  If a site is knowingly accepting visitors from a state (or perhaps is merely being willfully blind), that state can and perhaps will exercise jurisdiction under its long-arm statute, as that constitutes "doing business" in the state.

Anyone who is going zip-a-dee-doo-dah and just assuming nothing will ever happen is burying his head in the sand.

Also note that this doesn't make it legal. You are just moving from the worst possible place to be, to somewhere else not as bad. Online gambling requires licenses, license renewals, etc, which usually are way above what the current bitcoin gambling sites can afford. Also, I do not believe you can simply start in "illegal mode" and pay for licenses to go legal.

Actually it is illegal, some people here need a lawyer. If you are running a gambling site in the USA think of leaving the country and change the server location.

You'd rather bury your head in the sand and then act shocked when the obvious happens?

You should know, owning that dice site of yours 

Yeah, especially since us dollar gambling sites are almost nonexistant

I don't understand why blocking IPs, it is just ridiculous - anyone could easily access this site through VPN, TOR, proxy or just Opera Turbo.
If you are physically located in the U.S. or any other country which legislation prohibit Bitcoin gambling, you will be in the trouble no matter if you have or not this stupid block!

I'm not spreading FUD. I just think this is a worth while topic to discuss.

You own a gambling site and you are spreading fud? 
wtf?

Hopefully some casinos will at least not block through IPs.

Actually depends probably more on if US citizens are accepted/able to play on the site, regardless of the location of the site

Contrary to popular belief, you don't own a legitimate gambling site.
But, thanks for the support. Please email me at [email protected].

That can't be good.

You can certainly expect it. Depends on your location.

haha I hope not!

Bitcoin gambling isn't illegal.

Now that FBI took down Silk Road, maybe we are their next target?