(silly) beginner question - transfer/mining/fee/cap

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 28, 2017, 04:53:14 PM

in a chaotic scenario where energy gets extremely expensive and it doesnt worth mining*: is there a way transaction go thru ? or without mining = no transfers

*i understand that in this case, transfer fees will just get higher till the point mining makes sense, but if it gets too high btc will lose market to fiat or whatever other system we will be using in the future

As mining becomes more expensive, some miners will no longer be profitable and will shut down their equipment. This will reduce the total hash power on the network. Blocks will be solved a bit slower. At the end of the difficulty adjustment period (every 2,016 blocks) the difficulty will decrease to speed up block solving. The remaining miners will become a bit more profitable since they will be able to solve blocks more often with the same amount of equipment and energy.

If energy costs continue to increase, more miners will no longer be profitable and will shut down their equipment. This will reduce the total hash power on the network. Blocks will be solved a bit slower. At the end of the difficulty adjustment period (every 2,016 blocks) the difficulty will decrease to speed up block solving. The remaining miners will become a bit more profitable since they will be able to solve blocks more often with the same amount of equipment and energy.

This process repeats until the remaining miners are able to be profitable at the current energy costs and an equilibrium is reached.

Prince8

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in a chaotic scenario where energy gets extremely expensive and it doesnt worth mining*: is there a way transaction go thru ? or without mining = no transfers

*i understand that in this case, transfer fees will just get higher till the point mining makes sense, but if it gets too high btc will lose market to fiat or whatever other system we will be using in the future

iluvpie60

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When there is no more bitcoin being created from mining, the idea is that the fees will be enough to incentivze further mining.

Of course it could be changed later with a hardfork. It all depends on what everyone agrees to. But in general, there will be soo many people using BTC by then that the fees will cover the mining expense. It is working ok right now, current reward is 12.5 btc and was 25 before that. We will see!

Prince8

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Quote from: Muhammed Zakir on June 27, 2017, 03:22:41 AM

Quote from: Prince8 on June 27, 2017, 02:15:24 AM

it calculates fee automatically, but how i do know how many bytes are needed for the transfer ?

You can calculate your transaction size approximately using above formula. Please read my post again and if you still can't understand, ask the part where you can't understand. If you don't understand anything at all, then I am not sure how to explain it to you! Somebody else may help you!

tbh, i didnt quite understand... but thanks for trying to explain !

Muhammed Zakir

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 27, 2017, 02:15:24 AM

it calculates fee automatically, but how i do know how many bytes are needed for the transfer ?

You can calculate your transaction size approximately using above formula. Please read my post again and if you still can't understand, ask the part where you can't understand. If you don't understand anything at all, then I am not sure how to explain it to you! Somebody else may help you!

Prince8

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it calculates fee automatically, but how i do know how many bytes are needed for the transfer ?

Muhammed Zakir

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 10:29:45 AM

Quote

How could i see the amount of bytes needed for the transfer ?

And its regards to that ?

Bitcoin wallets calculate fee automatically. As long as you use good wallet and don't set "low" fee, you don't need to worry about it. Paying 0.0002BTC per 1000 bytes is what I suggest. There is no "set" fee, so if you want pay higher, you can. Even if the transaction size is less than 1000 bytes, don't decrease the amount you pay.

Note: Don't think balance shown on your wallet as 1 input. Total bitcoins in an address(s) may have more than 1 unspent-transaction-outputs(UTXOs). Each UTXOs should be considered as 1 input and number of inputs is depended on output. If an UTXO is equal or greater than output (bitcoins send + fee), then there will only be 1 input. However, if you don't have any UTXO which is greater than output, your wallet/client will include inputs until input is equal or greater than output. For example, if you have 5 UTXOs with 1,4,3,0.56 & 2 bitcoins respectively and your output is 2 (1.9998 + 0.0002(fee)), then your transaction will have 1 input and 1 output. Instead, if your output is 7BTC, then there will be 3 inputs and 2 outputs in your transaction. Inputs - 4,3 & 0.56 | Outputs - 7 & 0.5508

Code:

input*180 + output*34 + 10 plus or minus 'in'

Calculate transaction size - https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/3011
UTXO - https://bitcoin.org/en/glossary/unspent-transaction-output
List of UTXOs of your address - blockchain.info/unspent?active=youraddresshere&format=html

Prince8

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Quote

How could i see the amount of bytes needed for the transfer ?

And its regards to that ?

Prince8

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Merit: 10

Quote from: dillpicklechips on June 26, 2017, 08:07:02 AM

Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 07:46:59 AM

Thanks for all the replies !

In which scenario we could expect lower fees without compromising the speed of the transfer ?

The normal fee is 318 sats/byte which can be confirmed in less than 30 minutes while you can try 236sats/byte if the transaction can wait for hours.

Here's the list of available transaction fee in Mycelium wallet (it may vary from each wallet):

low-prio 》》 193sat/byte (risked to never be confirmed)
Economic 》》 236sat/byte (takes a very long time to confirm)
Normal 》》 318sat/byte (recommended)
Priority 》》 353sat/byte (fast)

There are some tx accerators though you need to do it fast since slots are limited and given hourly like https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/

P.S. Please lock the thread if you have no other questions.

How could i see the amount of bytes needed for the transfer ?
is mycelium, in your opinion, the best wallet to customise transfer fees ?

dillpicklechips

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 07:46:59 AM

Thanks for all the replies !

In which scenario we could expect lower fees without compromising the speed of the transfer ?

The normal fee is 318 sats/byte which can be confirmed in less than 30 minutes while you can try 236sats/byte if the transaction can wait for hours.

Here's the list of available transaction fee in Mycelium wallet (it may vary from each wallet):

low-prio 》》 193sat/byte (risked to never be confirmed)
Economic 》》 236sat/byte (takes a very long time to confirm)
Normal 》》 318sat/byte (recommended)
Priority 》》 353sat/byte (fast)

There are some tx accerators though you need to do it fast since slots are limited and given hourly like https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/

P.S. Please lock the thread if you have no other questions.

Ren127

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 07:46:59 AM

Thanks for all the replies !

In which scenario we could expect lower fees without compromising the speed of the transfer ?

You need to convince miner that he should include your transaction at first places. So maybe it's friend miner or you have his family at your basement, or you just set adequate fee.

Bitfort

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invest trade and gamble wisely

Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 07:46:59 AM

Thanks for all the replies !

In which scenario we could expect lower fees without compromising the speed of the transfer ?

If miners would not be so greedy. Wink

I think if we ( users ) would start sending less fee transactions, they would include them anyway. So it's also up to us.

BUT

I'm pretty sure they would find a way how to force us to raise the fee again ... e.g. making their own (useless) transactions with higher fee and prioritize them just to keep the fees high.
It's just bussines and I don't like it. It's definitely not the way how Satoshi meant it.

Prince8

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

Thanks for all the replies !

In which scenario we could expect lower fees without compromising the speed of the transfer ?

Bitfort

sr. member

Activity: 952

Merit: 339

invest trade and gamble wisely

Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 06:52:26 AM

I apologise in advance if that was covered in another thread

So far, i understood this about btc:

- the only way to increase the amount of btc is thru mining
- there will only be max of 21b btc
- for every transaction, there is a fee
- for the transaction to be completed, a miner has to mine that block(?) and collect that fee in order to validate the transaction
- therefore, a higher transaction fee has bigger chances to be picked up by a miner to validate and complete the transfer

assuming these premises are true (please correct me if not - im interesting in learning -), how will transactions/transfers work when there is no more btc to be mined ?

Mostly correct.

Just to add.
There will be actually less than 21m (milion) BTC in circulation due to lot of people lost their BTC (private keys) and there is no way to recover them.

Yes, to validate tx miner has to include it in block. Indeed. The fee is just bonus (currently miner gets 12.5 BTC reward for finding a block ... this is the main reason why they are mining)

You can send tx without fee but risking it will never get confirmed.

Once all BTC will be mined ( somewhere around year 2140 ) miners will collect only the fees ( no reward for mining the block itself anymore ).

dillpicklechips

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 06:52:26 AM

I apologise in advance if that was covered in another thread

So far, i understood this about btc:

- the only way to increase the amount of btc is thru mining

Nope. There are a lot of ways to earn BTC that may be thru mining, signature campaign, twitter campaign, facebook campaign, offering your services to translate a website, whitepaper or etc.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/100-ways-to-earn-bitcoin-1777912

See that link. Though you don't need to do all of that. You need to pick some that you can do and earn a decent amount.

Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 06:52:26 AM

- there will only be max of 21b btc

Wrong because the cap is 21M BTC.

Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 06:52:26 AM

- for every transaction, there is a fee
- for the transaction to be completed, a miner has to mine that block(?) and collect that fee in order to validate the transaction
- therefore, a higher transaction fee has bigger chances to be picked up by a miner to validate and complete the transfer

You're right that every transaction has a fee. The miner includes your transaction to the block that they have mined. It really is up to them as to what transaction they will include to their mined block that is the fee equals to priority. There are also transaction who are not confirmed for weeks and wait for it to be forgotten then it will com back to your wallet that is due to the low fee you set. To know how much fee you should pay, try to look at this: https://bitcoinfees.21.co/

Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 06:52:26 AM

assuming these premises are true (please correct me if not - im interesting in learning -), how will transactions/transfers work when there is no more btc to be mined ?

Then miners has no block to mine which mean that their income will be reliant to the transaction fees and no more block reward. Read this: https://news.bitcoin.com/what-happens-bitcoin-miners-all-coins-mined/

Also we have a Bitcoin wiki so you can learn more here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page Though there will be a lot of technical terms to encounter, you can research it one by one and understand each term.

Ren127

newbie

Activity: 14

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Quote from: Prince8 on June 26, 2017, 06:52:26 AM

I apologise in advance if that was covered in another thread

So far, i understood this about btc:

- the only way to increase the amount of btc is thru mining
- there will only be max of 21b btc
- for every transaction, there is a fee
- for the transaction to be completed, a miner has to mine that block(?) and collect that fee in order to validate the transaction
- therefore, a higher transaction fee has bigger chances to be picked up by a miner to validate and complete the transfer

assuming these premises are true (please correct me if not - im interesting in learning -), how will transactions/transfers work when there is no more btc to be mined ?

Same, but there will be only fee money, no more generating, and that will increase the fee. Also lot of people think that bitcoin gonna crush when fee will be too big for people to use comfortably, there are etherium they can use

Prince8

member

Activity: 102

Merit: 10

I apologise in advance if that was covered in another thread

So far, i understood this about btc:

- the only way to increase the amount of btc is thru mining
- there will only be max of 21b btc
- for every transaction, there is a fee
- for the transaction to be completed, a miner has to mine that block(?) and collect that fee in order to validate the transaction
- therefore, a higher transaction fee has bigger chances to be picked up by a miner to validate and complete the transfer

assuming these premises are true (please correct me if not - im interesting in learning -), how will transactions/transfers work when there is no more btc to be mined ?

Topic: (silly) beginner question - transfer/mining/fee/cap (Read 788 times)