Topic: Slots 103: More In-Depth about Return To Player (RTP) (With Poll) (Read 467 times)

Oh I see, I think it is provided by the casino and from the official game provider.

Does that mean you have the info

wait, start tracking features means I share my game activity at a casino with slottracker, is that right? Obviously there is will be no data, because I didn't play, just installed to find out how it works. I think, that button will have a choice provider that I want to track, not my spins activity 

I had time to check some of the existing data, but it seems that the provider is limited. And the data does exist, starting from the number of spins, the biggest win and the RTP percentage. However, if live RTP data is only based on users on the website, then that means live RTP is indeed only a possibility or a myth.

Yes, correct. The provider (like Pragmatic) doesn't publicize their data, at least to me
And yes, it's owned by the casino and obtained from its users.

You don't have to track your spins activity to see their database, just log in to their website. I didn't install such an extension so I don't know...
Have you seen their data? What do you think?

CMIIW, so Live RTP is not a feature provided by the provider? I mean, for example Pragmatic today set a Live RTP of 200% for Gate of Olympus, then this is detected from the data owned by the casino. But this is only the result of data processing based on the ratio of wins obtained by the user. right? I tried installing Slottracker extension, but it seems like an error in my browser, because I can't set "start tracking". Even though I've tried restarting the browser, it still doesn't work.

It can be yes or no, depending on the data source. For example, Live RTP on Bitcasino.io and Sportsbet.io is the same, since both use the same data. These sites are actually the same site with different skins and names This is an example of the data being gathered locally, only from their casino server. You'd probably find other casinos/websites that utilize the same data, these are basically mirror sites.

There are other casino groups that collect live RTP info as well, but different groups will have different sets of data since the data are collected locally in their casino server.

So the Live RTP data is only measured from the particular website/casino group, and it might or might not be drastically different from each other as it's completely random.

Here you can switch between casino providers: https://slotcatalog.com/en/Hot-Cold-Games (I don't vouch for anything including the validity of data, DYOR & DWYOR)

Live RTP information is only a myth as it only measures historical data. Moreover, you'll find some of the data isn't big enough since they often didn't include how many spins. For example, we cannot say if Gates of Olympus (for example) which has 200% Live RTP from 100 spins is in a hot state.

Anyway, there is a site like Alexa in the past that collect information from a browser extension like: https://slottracker.com/ (I don't vouch for anything including the security of the extension, DYOR & DWYOR), if the site and extension are legit, the data from this site is more meaningful since it includes the number of spins, and gathered directly from the user.

Thanks for the explanation. So, if I understand it correctly, it would be pointless to compare playing the same game on WEB A and WEB B. However, with this knowledge, maybe when I decide to play again one day, I will choose a website that provides live RTP information. In this way, I can share my experience for the results when playing games with live RTP informations with without knowing the live RTP and it will be the first one I'm trying more than 1 casino.

The live RTP Is specific for that slot in the specific casino where you have seen it.Every casino have a different implementation of the live RTP and beside that only very few of the casinos give you this indispensable valuable information.
I say so because when a slot shows you that in last 24 hours the machine have given over 184% but weekly 90% and monthly 60% it means that most likely the machine will keep giving to come near the presented RTP (not live one) of 96% which is a common RTP from many slot providers.

@mu_enrico or fellow members,

I would like to inquire about Live RTP. During my active playing slots, I haven't been paying much attention to it. However, I recently came across a comment by one of the forum members. unfortunately, I can't remember the specific thread. The comment mentioned like this: on WEB A, there is Live RTP information available for checking. So, I registered on the site and confirmed the presence of such information. My question is,  Does the Live RTP information on website A align with other websites featuring the same provider and listed games?

I appreciate any insights or information you can provide regarding this matter. 

I voted 97%.  I think if people are okay with a 3% inflation rate then they should be ok with casinos taking 3% of their funds as well.  Why not?  Funny to see that is the amount that has received the most votes.  This shows that people are just ok with losing 3% of their money as it has been engrained into us our whole lives with inflation targets.  Economics aside, 3% seems reasonable to me for a fee paid for services rendered, in this case allowing users to bet with the potential to make money.  It's important to figure other things too.  Some casinos have crazy withdrawal fees and betting requirements that should also be calculated.

Of course I'll not be relying on those sites, just wanna make comparison a bit.
Sometimes I use live RTP information for a reference to choose which slot to play but most of the time I play randomly based on my own mood and feeling.


I second this answer, RTP is just one of the preferences for us to play slot games.
Other preferences can be about volatility, grid style, features, etc.

The problem with any RTP that are provided by the casinos are the validity of the RTP. We all know that it takes a million+ bets to determine the actual RTP, but some casinos have original games and they can quickly alter the RTP during the day. (How long does it take to make 1 000 000 bets to test it and what will the outcome be, if they changed it 5 times a day?)

Yes, it is not easy for the casinos to get the 3rd party Slot providers to change the RTP for them, but some providers give several options for the casinos to choose from..... and I believe they do ask for changes over time.

I think provably fair slots have relatively high RTP such as Stake's Scarab Spin which has a 2.16% house edge, meaning 97.84% RTP.
Other than that White Rabbit from BTG has a 97.72% RTP.
These are only two samples of games (top of mind) that I often play.

Search on Slotcatalog and you'll find results with 98%+ RTP.

Second most important thing IMO, the most important thing is whether or not I enjoy the game.

What's the highest RTP you've seen? I have played a few that are 97% and heard of some that even go 98%+.

Is RTP actually the most important thing when choosing your favorite casino game?

There are many places so it's best to just google search "live rtp slots"
Anyway other than bitcasino and its gang, sometimes I check:
* https://slottracker.com/ (you need to log in)
* https://slotcatalog.com/en/Hot-Cold-Games

But don't rely too heavily on those sites, better use them just for fun Especially if the number of spins is small, like less than 50k spins.
For Slottracker tho, it is kinda like Alexa (in the past) when you contribute to the data.

Talking about Live RTP, do you have any alternative places to check Live RTP? So far, the only site I use to check Live RTP is bitcasino/livecasino.
If there are some other sites to check, I think it would be nice if you can add it in the OP for more references (at least for me LOL).
Just curious if the Live RTP information is the same or not if there are some sites to check.
A little difference is fine as it can be a matter of slow update, but if the difference is too big then it will make players confuse 

The live RTP is usually lower if you frequently monitor it, but when it's in a "hot" state, it will pay like crazy to make up for the previous "cold" states. While the medium/low volatility slots are generally more modest in terms of live RTP swing.

The theoretical RTP, however, depends on what provider you play, for instance, in Pragmatic Play, it's usually 96.5% doesn't matter what volatility the game is. There are a lot of high volatility slots with 97%+ theoretical RTP, so it can be higher than low/medium volatility games.

It's true. High volatility slots are a type of online slot machine that provide substantial payouts infrequently. These games are considered “high risk, high reward” because the payouts are substantial but happen less frequently compared to low volatility slots. Players who crave excitement and aim to win big may prefer high-volatility slots. The RTP (return to player) of these slots is usually lower compared to low-volatility slots, meaning the chances of winning are fewer. However, when a win does occur, the payout is substantial. Before playing for real money, it's advisable to try a few spins in demo mode in our Top 10 List, to evaluate if a high volatility slot aligns with your personal gambling style.
Source

What I meant by soft-scam is the one who uses unacceptable RTP, like below 94% for PnG slots. Suppose you want to buy a bottle of mineral water, soft-scam is like when you tried to buy it at the hotel since it can cost more than 10x. But if you buy it at some random store with a 2x price, then it's acceptable when you desperately need it.

I know some popular casinos use ~ -2% RTPs, but it can be acceptable if they give rakebacks, raffles, etc. In other words, the 2% (and perhaps more) will be materialized into other forms of benefits. Nevertheless, it needs users to commit to play there long term which I don't like. Sometimes, switching casinos can give you better luck lol.

In the past, when I started playing slots, I didn't care to check the RTP information in the game info. After I often play on different platforms, I just realized it was true even though the game was the same but the RTP settings could be different.
But it doesn't seem right to say "soft-scammed", maybe the same as HE where each platform sometimes has a different value :v

^Well, it's a gaming industry, not "making money online without risks" industry.
True, play responsibly!

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Anyways, I found this excellent article to inspect Play'nGo's RTP.
https://bestnetentcasino.info/en/blog/different-rtp-numbers-in-playn-go-slots

This way, we can check the custom RTP used by the casino by simply inspect -> network -> XHR -> select xxxfly.playngonetwrok.com

Here's the response you should be looking:

Below 94: rekt machine
94: expensive
96: good! <- I only want to play with this setting.

While a return to player might be 97% as favored in the poll, most players won't just sit for 100 rolls and walk away with their winnings, rather, they will keep playing for multiple hours and their initial wins will be tempered with replaying with those wins and eventually and wins will be smoothed out by overall losses.  Players need to evaluate how long they play for and how much their losses are going to be.

Good question! You can check the theoretical RTP here:



It says "96.53%" <- you should play with this RTP.

If you cannot find the theoretical RTP information in that "?" section, the chance is you play the "custom RTP" of The Sword and The Grail Slot.

In case you played the custom RTP slots variant. The custom RTP doesn't mean the casino where you play is a scam, but more of an expensive casino. They might give rakeback, bonus, or whatever else to offset the "high" spin price. But for me, I'd rather play on cheap casinos with no/little bonus.

Yes you spot it right I only play that slot.I still haven’t found one slot which can offer to go up to 5 spins with 100x multiplier and until I do this will my beloved slot.

And what I should specifically want to check in the info section as only rules are explained there and not the variance of the game.

Oh, we have Swords and Holy Grail addict here
What I meant by RTP variants was about different "default theoretical RTP," not about the live one. Even if the game (in this case, PnG) used high default RTP ~96.5%, users would still get the variance.

Most of the time, you will play within range, so if you notice your balance getting emptied too fast, you should check the help/info section.

I have noticed the different RTP variants you are saying here in a Play n Go slot and more specifically in Swords and Holy Grail slot.I have noticed huge variance which I accept as the slot in the description says ultra high volatility but when the theoretical Rtp is lower like in the last 24h is 75% the games goes on a pattern of its own by making the bonus round difficult to fall on the reels.When the 24h Rtp is for example above 101% netting the bonus round in the reels happen within very few spins and I think that is the variance which makes us lucky or unlucky during our session.

If you play the default high 96%-ish games, you could still have lots of fun. I personally like the book of xxx mechanics, e.g., Book of Dead, Legacy of Dead, and Rise of Merlin. I think winning small in these slots (with default high RTP) are quite easy. The problem is we have to be careful with some casinos that use RTP variants. If you play a lot, you will notice, but better be safe by checking the RTP in its help/info section before you play.

yeap, agree with the most... especially with how sick are play'n'go... zero chances to win most of the time

Update!

RTP Variants: Same Game, Different RTPs

Always check for RTP! That should be the mantra for every slots player who doesn't want to get "soft-scammed" since the exact same game can use different RTP settings.

The provider who are known to have different RTP settings, as follows:
- Play'n Go: someone even reported to have only 84% RTP;
- Pragmatic Play: there are three RTP choices from 94% to 96%;
- Red Tiger: multiple RTPs down to 92%; source
- Nolimit City: usually the DX version pays -2% from the standard version (from my observation only, citation needed).

So always search for the best RTP slots machine, except you are filthy rich

I shudder to think what kind of scam accusations, or beat-the-dead-horse kinds of threads that would be started and go on for months if someone were to claim they were owed the house on a floating set of rules on a given day.

It reminds me of Fizbin.

It seems users like 97% RTP or more.

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Oh, I forgot to mention about the payline RTP.

Theoretical RTP and Paylines

How about RTP in games that allow users to customize the paylines where they can bet on 1 of 10 pay lines up to 10 of 10 (max) paylines? Well, usually more paylines equal to more RTP, hence the theoretical RTP label is for max paylines. So, better bet on max lines even if it's more expensive if you don't use it as a strategy (to do progressive betting). If you don't trust me, kindly dwell into various slots' information sections, and sometimes you will read "The RTP only applicable for max lines" sort of thing.

After sportsbet added a reward system in their site i've started playing slots once again and usually the games have a 96%-97% RTP but i've had better experience with slot games that have RTPs near 97% so i'd say that's the acceptable number.

Maybe we're just that lucky to catch some of the remaining wins  . I also won a bunch of times in a random slot game when the live RTP was sitting at 105%.

Yea, I often won Book of Dead and Legacy of Dead when its live RTP was above 100% just like you said, but perhaps it's just a fallacy.

More common term usage is "live" and "theoretical" mate. If the dev dares to label its RTP with "true," probably they simulate the spin billions of times.

I've got to admit I hadn't really given this very much thought, but if I can put it into context of Roulette, then the Zero/Double Zero is the House edge for that particular game which is a 1/37 or 2in38 return to the house which is ~ 3% to about ~ 5% so of your answers, I'd go with ~ 97%

24H RTP shows performance of players during last 24h. It shows nothing else than how lucky someone else was before in last 24h. This number is randomly oscillating around real RTP and has nothing to do with your expected proft/loss. RTP now or live RTP shows performance of players during shorter period (like 1h, 30 min. 4h depending on website). Its even more random.


None of casino games are profitable for gambler. They are made to be profitable for casino. You can profit only when you are lucky.

If you want to know what are your actual chances of winning and how fair slot is set check real RTP not temporary RTP.

Why do they show a 24H RTP and RTP now? Which one should be followed? I mostly see 24H RTP to be over 100% in certain games where current RTP for that games is less than that level, why is that difference there? And if less than 100% RTP, is that game not profitable if played then?

I believe that the goal in gambling is to stay the f out of true RTP True RTP means a loss for a gambler. The closer to true RTP you want your output to be the more certain it is that you will exit casino with loss or 0.
Therefore, if i'm gambling i choose high volatile games with as big RTP as possible. That's the only way to win big. To feel emotions.
I do not pay any attention to the live RTP. It does not matter for me if someone who played before me win o loss.

I agree with most topics but what I find it really as a hot point is the last of this thread which is the live Rtp.I have seen at least in Play n Go slot provider that when the live Rtp is just above 100% every time I have played I have had some sort of a good session.The Rtp here can go up to 174% I have seen.I am talking about the 24h Rtp and not weekly or monthly ones.

Oh, the RTP debate, it never goes old! Perhaps everyone already knows about RTP, but did you know that high RTP is not always good and can change over time? Let's dig it!

First and foremost:



Theoretical RTP for extremely high volatility slots

Let's see how slots that can give 100,000x can get you busted most of the time, even with the 100% Theoretical RTP. Let's say the dev programmed the game to provide 0x (zero) payouts in 99,999/100,000 spins and 100,000x payout in 1/100,000 spins. In theory, they can label their slot game to have 100% Theoretical RTP. In reality, players will get busted with a probability of 99.999%. It might be okay if they really pay if some "holy" dude gets the 100,000x, but we have read about this slot malfunction and whatever else that deny their obligation to pay.

Therefore, if you see high volatility slots that have high RTP, you should ask:
- How big is the max win? 1,000x, 10,000x, or 100,000x?
- What's the volatility and the hit frequency?
- Even if I (somehow) win big, what's the probability for me getting paid 100%? Will my KYC be denied?




Do you have another view/opinion/fact about RTP? Feel free to share your knowledge here.


Disclaimer: gambling is for adults who understand the risks involved with this game. Plus, OP wouldn't take responsibility whatsoever if you then become slots addict and lose lots of money after reading this thread.
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