Topic: SMF patch, to display unlock at the top. Can it be done? (Read 546 times)

If you are using a mobile device, a fast swipe upwards will get you to the bottom of the page very quickly. A quick swipe downwards gets you back up to the top of the page. Considering that the posting and quoting experience on a mobile device isn't user-friendly and that's what you are supposed to use it for most of the time, these two buttons being at the top or the bottom of the page won't make things any better.

Didn’t want to dwell on this but, the scroller here works in a couple of ways, haven’t really taken notes if it were to be browser specific but, my observation about it has always been about the page in which is been reviewed. I almost thought that was an example of the forum right there but as it’s not, the most that I’ve observed about this scroller function is that, it tends to apply when your looking at a very long page. Perhaps I would test it on some other wall of test thread on the forum with a lot of comments on it and see how it turns out.
What mainly applies to this scroller on mobile device is barely an indication of how deep into the page you’ve been. More like a pointer to how far you’ve come and where the page ends, using your screen to ratio the content.

Well... I surrender... 

PowerGlove, I think you have the missing click here to do what you do best.
These buttons will also only appear to the OP or moderators. Let us get used to it.

That it a cool idea, not sure how useful/used it would be though. Feel free to start a thread so people would discuss it's usefulness. Personally, not sure how it'd fit in my forum consumption flow, the couple of times I pressed those buttons was probably by accident.


Personally, having the move topic button at the top is something I really missed when dealing with lots of threads to be moved (such as when a new section was created). At one point I wanted to create a user script to copy the button but luckily moving threads in bulk doesn't happen everyday - not trying to find an excuse  .
It's something I would likely personally use, though in some cases I justify scrolling to the bottom to get more context regarding where/if to move the thread - not trying to find a second excuse  .
As I think it was mentioned earlier, having the move button at the top would help users move their own threads when possible/needed.

Nobody is unlocking locked topics all the time, so I wouldn't waste time on this, but if OP really wants this than he can work on some scripts instead of changing location of buttons (or duplicating them) for everyone else in the forum.

Please don't let that stop you from suggesting things in the future! I enjoy programming and solving little problems (including ones that seem too small to bother with).

To be clear, I'm not trying to avoid work (like I said, I enjoy working on the forum and I personally think your suggestion was a good one, which led to other good ideas, too). I'm just trying to avoid pointless work (pointless in the sense that theymos won't actually add the patch). If theymos contributes his (positive) thoughts to this topic, or if Cyrus does the same, or if one of the experienced mods chime in with support for the idea, then I'll happily plug in my Model M (so to speak) and supply the diff(s).

Yeap I said for the browser if you didn't know that try it out (I think you have already tried it out  )

In a browser, yes (and I did not know that). But while editing text (like now), End means end of line, while CTRL-End means end of text.

No need "CTRL", "End" is enough 

This is the point of discussion by which we can come from one idea to another. I did not notice on "previous/ next topic" but this discussion helped me and some others realized that these things are very barely used. So replacing them with "less barely used" things like in my proposal looks better.

And by this discussion, we are opened to raise other proposals, for other things as replacements, beyond my original proposal.

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PowerGlove, when I raised this idea, I did not know that coding & testing it can take too much time like several days. If so, I don't think it's necessary to spend time on it. You can enjoy your time with margaritas on beach or else where.

I didn't need to summarize it. But thanks. This helps everyone. 

Yes, I don't agree that some of these buttons are together especially at the top of the page.
But, as the php command must be the same for both locations, I don't think it is appropriate to have these buttons in this location (especially at the top).

Therefore, I asked what would be placed in that place (apart from those buttons)?

Re-read the topic, start-to-finish, I'm not summarizing it for you...

Okay fine, I'll summarize it.

OP wants some buttons that are currently displayed only at the bottom of the page to be displayed at the top, too. I'm saying that those buttons could be duplicated and then moved to the areas (top and bottom) currently occupied by the previous/next topic links (which are conveniently near to the other topic-related buttons). That way, the layout would remain similar, and something that probably almost never gets used is replaced with something that does get used, and, as a bonus, all the topic-related actions would then be in one logical group (like in the second image from this post). You're saying that the two groups of buttons are far apart from each other for a good reason, and that they shouldn't be close together (at least, that's my impression of what you're saying).

I didn't even notice, respond to or argue with the suggestion. 





Yes, it was a somewhat extreme example without a doubt. And clicking errors will always exist, no matter where the buttons are.

Now I agree that an adjustment could be made to these buttons that no one uses these days. These "previous/next" buttons no longer make any sense.

But what was in that place?

I mean, we're talking (at least, I am) about replacing something that's really rarely used with something that's rarely used.

Yeah, but, that's only true in principle. (With your particular "factory reset" example, I agree that it's true in practice, too, but that's more of a point-making extreme than any kind of analog for what's being discussed here.)

Personally, I think all the topic-related actions should be together (though, like I've said before, I don't feel strongly enough about it to write a patch for that unless/until I see more support for that point of view from other users). I don't buy the argument that the rate of mistakes will go up, in fact, I'm pretty certain that it'll remain the same or even go down for ordinary users (I'm sure I've run into reports before of topics being accidentally locked, and that's probably because mobile users sometimes hit the $mod_buttons area without meaning to).



Anyway, you've spent three posts in this topic essentially making the same point. You've been heard.

That way, someone may actually use it. If it's up to me, the whole "previous/next" thing can just as well be removed.

No, but now you make me want to do this What's really going to get to me, is that it's gone again after I click it....

But this is not simplifying the user experience.

Have you placed a "factory reset" button on your smartphone on the display? I do not think so. Why? Firstly because it's not something you do often. Second, even though there is a confirmation alert, you are aware that it is risky to have this button so exposed.


The point is this:

Why put something that is used so little in such a prominent place?
You can use this location to place more relevant and useful information for daily use.

@LoyceV I don't know what the advantage would be of having the topic name there. 

Ha! If only...

These days, one way or another, I'm always working on forum things (either big patches that take a long time to complete, or dinky little micro-improvements that I can finish relatively quickly, or behind-the-scenes work that I'm not at liberty to discuss). When I'm not doing that, I'm either sleeping, showering, pretending to exercise, taking the dog for a walk, or sat in front of the TV playing games. Occasionally, you'll catch me standing around in my underpants and eating a bag of chips.

(It's only thanks to Mrs. PowerGlove that I can ignore the various things I've learned other human beings have to contend with, like "cooking" and "cleaning" and whatnot.)

That's a cool idea. I think I prefer the idea of using that space for $mod_buttons, but, I don't feel strongly about it; unless theymos or Cyrus share their opinion (or this topic arrives at some kind of consensus without them), then I'm unlikely to pursue any of what's been discussed so far... Even these really small patches basically take 2 or 3 days to complete (I mean, it usually only takes a few hours to get something kind of working, but then it takes a lot of testing, thinking, and refining before things settle into a form that I feel comfortable calling "done").

Since we're patching cool things listing things for PowerGlove to do instead of sipping margaritas on the beach, I'd be more intrigued if "previous" and "next" were replaced by the title of that topic.

You can use Ctrl+Up or Down arrow; or Ctrl+Page Up or Ctrl+Page Down alternatively too. I forgot about these when I opened the thread and thank you LoyceV for reminding me. I really don't know any computer or laptop does not have such key on its keyboard.

Anyway I still stick with the proposal, if can be deployed, it is helpful to save time, when keyboard is broken at specific keys or with some situations, inconvenience described by PowerGlove.

I did not use them too and they are useless in my opinion as a next or previous topic is unknown, and it can be a one-line thread, no value at all.

There is confirmation message box, I believe for either a normal user to delete a post or moderators to delete a post or a thread.

They can use an On-Screen Keyboard in that case.   It's available in the Windows operating system, not sure about others though.

I'm just kidding, I know it's more convenient to simply scroll down than to open an on-screen keyboard and press the buttons to reach the end of the page.  

Some people have neither the CTRL key nor the "END" key on their keyboard.

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Regarding the topic, it is very uncommon for someone to need to use either of the buttons the OP is asking to be moved. If implemented, the moved buttons would be in a fairly prominent location.

Yes, it's true, I mentioned that some of the options have a confirmation page, to avoid accidents.

But I think this change causes more disruption than simplicity. Because if today, any of us, by mistake already press the button next to what we want, with more options this increases in probability.

I think the changes should be to simplify and not complicate.

But if the community thinks it's good, and @theymos thinks it's the best. Who am I to say no.
I just think that this doesn't improve the user experience, it just creates more visual "noise", in a place that wants to be simple.

I've never used them. Even if just bored, I prefer to read the titles in the list and choose from there.

It's likely different in theymos' version of SMF, but in unmodified 1.1.19, $mod_buttons can have up to 8 entries (depending on both global configuration and individual moderator preferences).

Your idea of splitting a combined "universal" command-list across two lines is kind of amusing (to me, anyway) because if you look at it in a certain way, then we've come full circle, back to how it already works. (It's just that, currently, $mod_buttons and $normal_buttons are presented in a very spatially-dislocated way.)

It makes me wonder how often the "previous topic" and "next topic" links are used, because if $mod_buttons was rendered there then things would work out pretty neatly...

Basically, go from this:



To this:



(And, obviously, the same replacement at the top of the page, too.)

That one has a confirmation dialog (at least, it does in 1.1.19). In fact, I think the only things in $mod_buttons that are on a hair-trigger, so to speak, are locking/unlocking and stickying/unstickying (both of which can be quickly undone).

I don't think this is a good measure! The different location of the buttons has a purpose, and they weren't made the same for a reason.


The location of these buttons has one objective: to avoid clicking errors.

If these buttons are close to other more common buttons, such as reply, danger can occur if they are clicked by mistake. It is for this reason that its location is different from the other buttons.

I've worked with several forums, some as a moderator, and these buttons were always in different locations than the most common buttons. This is for security reasons. Therefore, I only believe that its location should not be changed.


I can agree that the buttons at the bottom of the page, like these, are the same as the top. But the fact that the add poll button is at the bottom of the page also has a purpose. The goal is to avoid or reduce changes to the topic by mistake.

It should be noted that adding a poll to the topic is irreversible, so the button not being easily accessible aims to reduce the error.



They may say that when you click on the buttons, we have a next confirmation page, which is true. But, the idea is to reduce the likelihood of the error arising. If all of us, who are experienced in using the forum, have already done actions unintentionally: like giving extra merits; make incomplete posts; follow topics we didn't want; request notification on topics we didn't want. Imagine it being easier to click on more relevant buttons than these.

Of course, most of these actions are reversible. But if we can avoid that, it will be much better. And one way to do this is to have these buttons away from those that are most used.


EDIT (see I posted too soon  )

The being located away from the other common buttons is even worse, especially Delete Topic.

Imagine a moderator accidentally deleting a topic? Can you see how easy it is to click Delete Topic instead of Reply?

These buttons should never be close to each other. It is a web design and software design concept, less frequently used and highly important buttons are never close to frequently used buttons. And if they do, it has a different highlight, or its action is easily reversible.

Yes, it is true that there is always a confirmation page. But why does a person have to be exposed to the danger of error?

When I proposed a change to the initial idea, I didn't even thought about that some more buttons may be hidden away from regular users and only appear to mods. You seem to imply that there are more "mod" buttons that what you've mentioned, do you have any idea how many more are left? This could create a long string of options that could mess with the display and reading (especially on smaller screens perhaps?)

My suggestion for this, in the event that the amount of options would be too much for one line, would be to create a 2 row display? I reckon that this may be more difficult to achieve, but it would basically divide the available options in two groups - those that appear to regular ones:
And for mods it would look like this:

It has the advantage that puts all the thread commands on one spot, but I don't know how it would look like from a design perspective.

In addition, browser on such device usually show scroll bar. You can use it (which appear when you begin to scroll down/up) to scroll down to bottom or top of page instantly.


Image source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dcrs-jI0fY

It's actually pretty easy to adjust this. The SMF devs left behind two easy-to-change array variables (one called $normal_buttons and one called $mod_buttons). There's a little bit of logic that makes $normal_buttons have sometimes different entries for the top of the page vs. the bottom, but besides that, it's nice and simple.

So, to be clear, when talking about the buttons at the top-right and the bottom-right, you're talking about $normal_buttons, but when talking about the buttons at the bottom-left, you're talking about $mod_buttons.

With that terminology established, what you're asking for is that $normal_buttons should be the same when it's rendered at the top of the page vs. the bottom, and that $mod_buttons should also appear at the top, instead of only at the bottom?

I mean, yeah, that makes sense to me (to the first part, I agree with you that it would be nice to make $normal_buttons symmetrical, and to the second part, I think I agree, too: firstly, IIRC, most newbies end up asking how to move or lock their own topics and that's probably because those buttons aren't where they expect them to be, they'd probably more often notice them on their own if they were duplicated at the top of the page, and secondly, maybe the mods would appreciate having access to $mod_buttons from both the bottom of the page and the top?).

Alternatively, Rick's suggestion basically amounts to taking two entries out from $mod_buttons and appending them to $normal_buttons. That suggestion has merit, too, but the mods probably won't appreciate some of the buttons in that area being moved and others being left behind (like the topic-deletion button, and the set-sticky-status button, etc.), so the best way to do that, I think, and it might be what Rick actually had in mind to begin with, would be to just lose the distinction between $mod_buttons and $normal_buttons, and just have $topic_buttons. That's a cool idea, but I'd be worried that the resulting list of buttons would be too long?

Maybe @theymos has some thoughts on this...

On phones, tablets and other devices that you can scroll up and down with your finger on the screen, it will take just less than 1 or 2 seconds if you increase the force that you used to scroll. If the network is good and the images load very fast, it is also easy on phones to scroll down to the last part. This is not an issue at all than what some users are posting about it.

By the way @tranthidung, you forgot there is also another link for topic archive by Ninjastic.space in case a user has the feature enabled in bpip.org extension.

So what you are suggesting would look like this;


Currently, the arrangement is a little messed up, especially when the topic has so many pages like the wall observer topic.


So I imagine the word traffic that would be at the top there when more of them are added.

Yes, that's the fastest way to do something like that, other than that way one can also use PgDn to reach the end of a page within seconds as that's also faster than doing it via scrolling.

If I'm not wrong then most users at this forum either use a PC or laptop for browsing or writing posts at this forum, but surely the ones who're smartphone/tablet users might not be able to use those keyboard keys.

They can also do something like desktop/laptop users by connecting Bluetooth based keyboards, but I'm sure that most of them don't own such keyboards and that's why they will have to do it via manual scrolling.

On phones there are much bigger issues than the location of this rarely used feature.

While this might work efficiently for PC/laptops/desktops, the case is different when it comes to iPads/notepads/mobile devices. You still get to scroll manually to where you need be.

Personally, I don’t find that to come with any displeasure.
I don’t see much need in having much of these duplicate icons for specific functions here and there. It makes a more simple forum space where we don’t have things clogged up.
Rather, the much your adopted to the forum and the device you access it with, your nerve responses to retracing certain key functions would be almost innate and voluntary.

Besides, it doesn’t give room to having luck/unluck your thread by error. You become really specific in having to key in these commands.

For features that are not used as much I like to think that it's convenient where it is at the bottom of the page. It's very easily accessible using the command to reach the bottom of the page and on mobile a sharp swipe will get you to the bottom of a page in literal milli seconds.

There's also the issue that at the top of the page it increases the chance of someone clicking on it mistakenly, inadvertently locking a page they didn't want to.

Press CTRL-End.

I reckon the pain that tranthidung talks about as I have felt it more in the contests that I organized some time ago - due to the amount of images that it had I had to scroll for a while before I reached those options. It would be more lean to have it appear alongside the other options to control the thread indeed.

Considering that the left side of the post already has the "Page" section, what about having it after the "Print" option? :

The left space at both top and bottom is reserved for Page number as I see.

I wonder if we can organize to make the same things for both top and bottom, if possible. What it is now is usable but if we can improve, why we don't do it?

You can not deny that it will be a little inconvenience in thread, page that is too big like with big images (when users don't use width or height options for images), you will need more time to scroll down, only to do simple things, lock or unlock a thread.

If it is impossible for restructure, I accept what it is now.

I do not have problem of where the move and lock links are which is the lower left corner. I can easily just scroll down and click on any of the two.

What I think is that if such links are on the upper left corner also, it will not be as beautiful as it is now. I prefer how it is now.

At top or bottom of a thread, the forum software gives us


If it is my own topic, but locked, I will see these things.
At top

At bottom
and

My idea is:

• Can we have same clickable texts (buttons) at top and bottom?
• It can save time to scroll down to lock or unlock a topic.

Like this

@PowerGlove, what do you think?