Topic: Smothering (Read 519 times)

Yes. So what? If I make something myself, I save others the effort of making it for me. But if someone else can do a better job of making it, it makes more sense for me to pay them to do it so I'm not wasting my time. Money allows us to concentrate on doing what we're good at doing and get other people to do what they're good at doing.

It helps price discovery. Anyone who ever buys or sells anything benefits from this.

Labour is outsourced when people in another country can do a better job for the same price, or the same job for a better price. This allows people in your own country to import better quality products, or the same products for less cost. And just what's so special about jobs in your own country, anyway? People in other countries need jobs too, you know. Are they somehow less deserving of a job than people in your country?

I never bet. Gambling is for losers. I am not biased about anything I invest in. I make decisions based on the best available evidence. Any investor who allows emotions to get the better of them is very likely to lose a lot of money very quickly. So I try not to let that happen. And so does anyone else who wants to make money.

You've got it backwards. Politics drives market manipulation, not the other way around. Markets themselves are pure. If you have something I want, and I have something you want, we make a trade and we both leave happy. The various markets are simply millions of people engaging in such trades on a global scale.

If she didn't have to pay money for the treatment, where would it come from? Who would spend years researching the treatment if they weren't going to get paid? Who's going to manufacture it? Who's going to administer it? As much as doctors and scientists enjoy working for the benefit of humanity, they still have to eat. Fact is, if she didn't have to pay money for the treatment she wouldn't have any treatment at all.

Pay close attention, because I'm only going to say this once more: people don't die because of a lack of money, they die because of a lack of stuff. There is only so much stuff in the world to hand out to people who need it. Clearly, we need some of system to decide who deserves to have this stuff and who doesn't. Money is that system. You acquire money by producing stuff that people want or need, and retain money by not consuming stuff that other people want or need. In other words, by being helpful and not being a burden on society. There are basically three kinds of people in the world who don't have enough money:
1) Those who are too lazy to work hard. Do these people really deserve to have stuff handed to them?
2) Those who work hard, but then squander their earnings. By spending their money on stuff they don't need, there is now less stuff remaining for people who do need it.
3) Those who, through no fault of their own, are unable to work, or have worked but have had their earnings stolen from them. These people are arguably the most screwed over by the system, but it is important to realise that money didn't create their problem: they'd be equally unfortunate whether money existed or not. Their lack of money is a symptom of their misfortune, not the cause. Life is just unfair, and money can't change that. But it does make life better for most people.

Ok, let me put it this way.  What if you created something that you want, then wouldn't your labor have been the price to pay for your own creation?

I don't know you so I can't dispute what your saying with evidence.  However, I can only look at current trends and question things.



I plenty agree with that.

But I disagree that that is what creates stuff.  *Perhaps it used to*  It probably motivates people to save up to buy "stuff"
but let me ask you this,

Who does speculative trading help? It doesn't seem like a service that most people would have a use for.
Let me compound the issue further by questioning why labor is outsourced when people would need a job in their own country.

When looked at from an idealistic standpoint, which is what you brought up, it sounds pretty logical.  However when you factor in that there are people out there hoarding money, and doing nothing useful with it. *Such as speculation*
I wonder then, at that moment, what is being created that would benefit anyone.

As an investor, you bet on goods and commodities.  Which means that when you bet on a good and/or commodity to succeed *or fail*, you give up your ability to make arbitrary decisions about that good and/or commodity because your biased about it.

Now imagine the system was rigged by people with biased feelings about investments.  And they exist in a system that rewards such unethical behavior.  The idealism and logic of the point you brought up, falls apart.

Because, while you may be helping people.  The fact those people need help in the first place was caused by the manipulations of the various markets, and their affect on the political structure.

A woman a few minutes ago posted a thread on this forum.  Asking for help paying for her daughter's leukemia.  In a just world, she wouldn't have to pay money to save her daughter's life.  Instead she had to come here to beg.
But rather then anyone helping her, the post was deleted by admins.

If money helps so many people, then why do so many people find themselves condemned to death for lack of it?

No functional arguments for money can alleviate the wrongs committed in the pursuit of it.

You're the one who's deluded. Money isn't wealth. Money is an abstraction of wealth which a person created for somebody else. Take me for example. My first job was in manufacturing. I created things. Things that other people want, and therefore are willing to pay for. That's how I made money: by creating things for other people. Then, when I was working in IT, I provided a service. A service that other people value. I got paid to do things for other people. Can you see a pattern forming? Every cent of every dollar I ever earned, I earned by helping other people. And if I were to spend that money on things for myself, that would reduce the amount of things remaining for other people, since there's only a finite amount of stuff in the world. But by "hoarding" my money, that stuff is available for other people who need it more than I do. By working for money and not spending it, I am helping people and then not taking anything from them. If only everyone were so generous.

Now, as an investor, I'm doing so much more to help people. I, and others like me, are not just creating things or providing services, we're creating jobs, creating businesses, creating an industry, creating an entire economy, and creating a better future for all mankind.

Nobody needs money to survive. You can't eat money, you can't cure diseases with money, though if you burn it you can at least stay warm at night. What people actually need in order to survive is the stuff that money can buy. And the "delusional" desire to acquire money is what motivates people to create that stuff. The only reason you're not starving is because farmers want money. The only reason you have a roof over your head is because builders want money. Pretty much everything that is good in the world exists solely because people want money. That's the reality.

Then you my friend are not delusional. 

Rich and poor are both made up terms.

...At the end of the day we're all human.


Bill Gates is a complicated issue.  The man is a master manipulator.  And he's rather self absorbed because he believes that the
whole entire purpose of education is to produce Microsoft employees. 

while, Microsoft employees have to be educated, there are other careers out there...*and why necessarily just careers? Why not the arts or scholarly pursuits?*

Warren Buffet is by far the more rational among them, actually wanting to pay more taxes. *He understands his role in the world* However, regardless of the members of that minority of billionaires who want to pay more, most *wealthy* are determined to hog as much as they can.

How is holding their coins smothering what is happening? If the price is $100/BTC or $1000/BTC it doesn't make a difference it just means something is 1BTC or 0.1BTC to purchase. The only thing that will cause an issue with using bitcoin is day trading causing massive fluctuations in the price as businesses are likely to adjust their prices (most places selling goods/services for BTC are unlikely to pay their suppliers in BTC so the exchange rate matters).

Someone not selling their coins now is no different to someone formatting their HDD and losing their wallet, the coins aren't in circulation so supply is reduced and the value goes up. When they sell supply will increase and price goes down.

If I had thousands I probably would have sold off a heap to pay off my mortgage but each to their own.

Money CAN equal a happier life. It all depends on what you want out of it.
This is coming from someone that has never been rich, and I don't expect to ever be rich (I only have 2.5 btc for that matter), but that has a lot of ideas and a will to help people - but no resources to do it. Having no money can sometimes be very frustrating for me because I want to help people by developing new ideas and redistributing wealth. But I have no resources (money) so I can't do anything.

Hoarding for the sake of hoarding is obviously useless - but saving in order to one day be able to reinvest that money into new businesses and ventures, which in return create more jobs and improve living conditions.. well, that's just smart. And it makes you happy because you are able to do meaningful things that help people.

It's much better for someone with big ideas and empathy to hold the money than a greedy bankster. Redistribution of wealth to the poor must begin with well meaning individuals holding the money instead of corrupt politicians.

Gates has given away more money than he has.

Jobs was the only hoarder between them.

Buffett worked his arse off to get his piece of the pie, and I don't hold it against the man if he wants to keep a grasp of it.

*sigh*

I might get hated for saying this but...

I feel like the people trying to be like Job/Gates/Buffet are delusional...
partly because Job/Gates and Buffet are/were delusional.

The reason I say that is because so much emphasis is being put on acquiring money.  And money doesn't equal a happier life.
All the while, there are people having to trudge through dumpsters for food.  The hoarding of all that *wealth* means that many people will have to face possibility of starvation because a few people think that having so much money, that it could never be spent in their entire lives, is their meaning in life. *Which is delusion*

 You can live perfectly comfortably with a fraction of that.  No one needs huge mansions and 500 cars.
There's no practical/logical reason for it.

The purpose of money is to be spent and circulated.  There are people who really need that to survive, and by hoarding it, you are harming society and the economy.  *To perpetuate some sort of made up fantasy, that will probably leave you alone and unhappy for the rest of your life, knowing everyone is using you for your wealth and that you don't have a real friend in the world*

Hope that wasn't too cliche' but the thought that money hoarders are actually harming people, rarely crosses their mind.
So, I'm just intervening a bit of reality into the fantasy.

As one of those hoping to become the next Job/Gates/Buffett, I'm insulted. I did not "get lucky". I never base investment decisions on luck. Instead I spent several months in late 2011 studying Bitcoin, and several years prior to that studying and working in IT which gave me the knowledge and experience to actually understand Bitcoin, and I knew, not guessed, but knew that Bitcoin was absolutely revolutionary and had the potential to completely change the world of e-commerce and possibly even banking. Just imagine a world where identity theft, chargeback fraud, capital controls, bank holidays, and exorbitant wire transfer fees are all a thing of the past. And we owe it all too... ME! If it weren't for me (and other early adopters like me) investing their hard-earned capital into this unproven and experimental technology, Bitcoin would not be where it is today, and all the profits I made in the process were the result of many years of hard work and education.

Luck, my arse.

Disclaimer: I've mined all the coins I have on a GPU in the past ten months.

All those people holding thousands of bitcoins, hoping to become the next Jobs/Gates/Buffett: make sure you don't smother what is happening right now. Use your head. You are *not* Jobs/Gates/Buffett...you got lucky. Take some profits and let other people profit from the rise.

Seriously, think about it.

Peace!