Softwallets, Bumping and Cancel Feature

nc50lc

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Quote from: khaled0111 on February 10, 2024, 11:14:31 AM

Logically, if you choose "preserve payment" then your wallet should not let you change it after broadcasting the transaction (although it's technically still possible to do so through some workarounds).

That doesn't make sense, the method isn't saved in the transaction and there's no rule in rbf that prohibits the deduction of the sent amount.

We're talking about bumping the fee here using Electrum's "increase fee" option, if he want to use rbf to his already broadcasted transaction;
he can set it the increase fee method to "Decrease amount" whenever he wants to bump its fee.

khaled0111

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Quote from: nc50lc on February 10, 2024, 02:44:46 AM

It's quite ambiguous IMO since you'll still be able to bump the fee by setting the method from "Preserve payment" into "Decrease payment" when using 'Increase fee' option.
However, as the method stated, it'll decrease the amount that the recipient will receive based from the amount you've added to the fee.
Thus, the reason for that warning message in case the amount has to be preserved.

Logically, if you choose "preserve payment" then your wallet should not let you change it after broadcasting the transaction (although it's technically still possible to do so through some workarounds).
However, I believe this warning message is still a bit misleading, though. Even if you spend the whole balance and don't get any change back, there is always a possibility for one of your wallet addresses to receive some coins which you can use to pay the extra fee needed to bump the unconfirmed transaction.

alastantiger

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Quote from: un_rank on February 09, 2024, 04:20:53 PM

Are you using the latest version of electrum?

Yes I am.

Quote from: nc50lc on February 10, 2024, 02:44:46 AM

This must be the message that you saw:

That will be shown if the transaction doesn't have a change and there's no other coins available to spend.

This perfectly explains my situation. And you are correct. In one of the wallets, I had no other coins for spending.

Quote

It's quite ambiguous IMO since you'll still be able to bump the fee by setting the method from "Preserve payment" into "Decrease payment" when using 'Increase fee' option.
However, as the method stated, it'll decrease the amount that the recipient will receive based from the amount you've added to the fee.
Thus, the reason for that warning message in case the amount has to be preserved.

I agree that the message to a non-technical person sounded very confusing because in an older version of the software, there was a bump fee feature. Reading this particular reply makes a whole lot of sense.

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Quote from: alastantiger on February 09, 2024, 04:16:27 PM

Some days ago while sending some bitcoin from an electrum wallet to another address, the warning message that showed up was to ensure that the fee rate sat/vB is sufficiently high, as bumping the fee may not be possible. That is, users cannot manually increase the transaction fee after the transaction has been initiated. Something in this line. I did a screenshot of it but failed to save it. I was wondering if anyone has seen this too.

This must be the message that you saw:

That will be shown if the transaction doesn't have a change and there's no other coins available to spend.

It's quite ambiguous IMO since you'll still be able to bump the fee by setting the method from "Preserve payment" into "Decrease payment" when using 'Increase fee' option.
However, as the method stated, it'll decrease the amount that the recipient will receive based from the amount you've added to the fee.
Thus, the reason for that warning message in case the amount has to be preserved.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: Hatchy on February 09, 2024, 04:53:42 PM

Also, you can just import your seed into wallets that supports the rbf feature and bumb the fee.

Your transaction can be flagged as RBF only when you make that and there is no way to turn a non-RBF transaction into a RBF-enabled transaction.
In the case you have made a non-RBF transaction, it will be still non-RBF even if you import your wallet into a software supporting RBF.

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Quote from: alastantiger on February 09, 2024, 04:16:27 PM

Some days ago while sending some bitcoin from an electrum wallet to another address, the warning message that showed up was to ensure that the fee rate sat/vB is sufficiently high, as bumping the fee may not be possible. That is, users cannot manually increase the transaction fee after the transaction has been initiated. Something in this line. I did a screenshot of it but failed to save it. I was wondering if anyone has seen this too.

Electrum support the rbf feature. Are you sure you used electrum for your transaction?

Quote

Are there wallets that do not have bump fee or cancel transaction features. And what happens to such wallet during periods of high network congestion when the transaction is stuck, what can or should they do?

Edit: thanks @ hosseinimr93
Yes there are some wallets that don't have the RBF features and on such wallets, you may find the Cpfp(child pays for parent) it's similar to the RBF. Also, if you enabled the RBF for your transaction you can just import your seed into wallets that supports the rbf feature and bumb the fee.

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I am quite familiar with Electrum. If you get that message what it simply means is you did not turn on the RBF feature before broadcasting the transaction. Probably you are using an older version.

Quote from: alastantiger on February 09, 2024, 04:16:27 PM

Are there wallets that do not have bump fee or cancel transaction features. And what happens to such wallet during periods of high network congestion when the transaction is stuck, what can or should they do?

As for this, if you fee was too low you have two options;
Either you wait for nodes to drop the transaction which would take a long time depending on your fee. Trust me I learned that the hard way Wink

. sometimes if the fees are way too small you might be so lucky that only the node network of the wallet you used didn't Purge the transaction.
Alternatively you could use the keys to access the wallet through another wallet like Electrum that supports RBF then try rebroadcasting the transaction with a higher fee.

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Quote from: un_rank on February 09, 2024, 04:20:53 PM

RBF is by default now and allows you bump the fee after signing the transaction.

Quote from: Frankolala on February 09, 2024, 04:28:13 PM

Electrum wallet is now RBF by default

You are both right, but there is a little misinformation about this, although not misleading. Electrum has replace-by-fee by default since few years ago. A version was released last year that the default replace-by-fee was removed in a way that Electrum is no more supporting non-RBF transactions. So, now, not that Electrum is supporting RBF by default, but not supporting non-RBF transactions at all.

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Quote from: Frankolala on February 09, 2024, 04:28:13 PM

Electrum wallet is now RBF by default, and I don't know why you said that you were unable to adjust the fee manually. You can adjust the fee manually after you have click on the send button, it will appear there.

Maybe you are using all the funds in your wallet for the transaction and there will be no money let in the wallet if I am correct. It is better to always use wallets that supports RBF so that you can choose your transaction fee.

This two things that OP mentioned is definitely a case of one using an old electrum version. OP needs to upgrade to the latest version because most of these are already available.

As for OP you can simply double spending the bitcoin from a non RBF broadcasted transaction by following this guide, reason is some nodes already have full RBF set as the default so they will actually accept a replaced transaction and remove the older transaction out. Make sure the new transaction is having a higher transaction fee so as to make it stand a chance to be confirmed first before the old one, provided that the node having it Mines first before the non full RBF node

Frankolala

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Electrum wallet is now RBF by default, and I don't know why you said that you were unable to adjust the fee manually. You can adjust the fee manually after you have click on the send button, it will appear there.

Maybe you are using all the funds in your wallet for the transaction and there will be no money let in the wallet if I am correct. It is better to always use wallets that supports RBF so that you can choose your transaction fee.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: alastantiger on February 09, 2024, 04:16:27 PM

Are there wallets that do not have bump fee or cancel transaction features.

There are many of them. Example are Unstoppable, Mycelium and many other wallets that support altcoins. In fact, I have not seen an altcoin wallet that is supporting bitcoin that has this (RBF) feature before.

Quote from: alastantiger on February 09, 2024, 04:16:27 PM

And what happens to such wallet during periods of high network congestion when the transaction is stuck, what can or should they do?

Import the seed phrase into wallet like Electrum, wait for one of the servers to drop the transaction from the mempool. If you have waited for 2 weeks and you did not see the coin on Electrum wallet balance, change the server from automatic to manual and select the servers one by one and synchronize the Electrum wallet each time you change the server. You can even do it before 2 weeks daily and repeatedly until you see your coins.

If your coin have appeared on Electrum balance, you can spend the coin again on a new transaction.

There is also option of full RBF in a way you can use a node/server that supports full RBF to rebroadcast the coin. Electrum: how to use Full RBF?

un_rank

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- Jay -

Are you using the latest version of electrum?
Did you go on to initiate the transaction and try to bump it?

RBF is by default now and allows you bump the fee after signing the transaction.

- Jay -

alastantiger

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Some days ago while sending some bitcoin from an electrum wallet to another address, the warning message that showed up was to ensure that the fee rate sat/vB is sufficiently high, as bumping the fee may not be possible. That is, users cannot manually increase the transaction fee after the transaction has been initiated. Something in this line. I did a screenshot of it but failed to save it. I was wondering if anyone has seen this too. Are there wallets that do not have bump fee or cancel transaction features. And what happens to such wallet during periods of high network congestion when the transaction is stuck, what can or should they do?

Topic: Softwallets, Bumping and Cancel Feature (Read 184 times)