Some Bitcoin owners do not own Bitcoin.

william8829

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Quote from: razzor85 on November 01, 2017, 02:21:04 PM

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available? Grin

Thanks for posting this. I have been using Coinbase for so long I completely forgot that they have my Bitcoin.

I may be in the minority but I actually think its a good idea to store some Bitcoin with a trusted company because you never know whats going to happen but not all of it. Maybe Ledger wallet software gets compromised or the paper wallet you have gets destroyed for one reason or another.

grinstring

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I agree with you on this because in bitcoin or this kind of industry are constantly threatened with risks and an unwarranted system. Plus, there are people who are simple the ones who trade and invests the bitcoin for the real owners.

Aamir1

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Well, it is probably true that there are some people which are bitcoin owners but they don't really own their bitcoins, and it is totally their own choice in my opinion. Because there are wallets which can provide private keys and there are wallets which don't. Like electrum, bitcoin-core, blockchain, these wallets provide you the private key for your bitcoin address, while coinbase, Xapo and some other wallets do not offer this thing. Now a person should know all these things before putting their funds into a wallet and they should decide according to that. And, you are right about keeping money in exchanges, which is totally senseless for me as they are never safe there. A person should always withdraw their funds from exchanges after they are done trading to keep them within their reach and safe.

aardvark15

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There are a lot of people that have Bitcoins on exchanges and those coins are at risk. Most exchanges are probably legitimate but they are still at risk of getting hacked or going out of business. Then there are a few that are not honest and will steal your coins.

I have used exchanges and was the victim of this in the Cryptsy exchange. We should be keeping most of our coins in offline wallets and only a small amount on exchanges for trading.

riderinred

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Quote from: djgtr on November 01, 2017, 05:38:36 PM

Quote from: _Dawid_ on November 01, 2017, 04:23:23 PM

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

If someone converts BTC to fiat for the case of saving value they do not come near to my definition of "smart and experienced".

bixbem90

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First, Bitcoin have 21 millions not "but there are only 16 million of coins"
Second, I not use coinbase, but i use blockchain.info and Bitcoin-core so i dont care about CFD because blockchain or bitcoin-core can provide me a private key and i can control my money by myself.
But i really think CFD need for some site, because of at the past we have Mtgox gone with our money because of their wallet is hacked; then btc-e.com, FBI investigate and lock their site, refund 50%; bitstamp have hacked at 2016. Now bittrex lock many accounts with any reason,.. All of who you call owner is trader, not owners, they must cope up with risky problem when sign up any echangers (their ToS said that).

nydiacaskey01

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Quote from: razzor85 on November 01, 2017, 02:21:04 PM

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available? Grin

I myself dont have my Bitcoin in a wallet that I have the private key. I think if I am not mistaken, only 15% of the total Bitcoin that I have is in an exchanger and reason behind it is, I dont want to miss the oportunity to earn when there is in trading. i tried to keep all my coins in a wallet but the confirmation to transfer funds takes a lot of time and by the it reaches my wallet in an exchanger, opportunity is not there anymore and I dont want to be charged ay transaction fee when I need to money to my trading funds.

frowsiter

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You have versatile question at the same time and there is no link between some of them altogether. But however, let you know that bitcoin owner is the one who is having the actual bitcoin with him because it is decentralised currency and allows you to be owner when you have that much code in your wallets. Thats the actual bitcoin in your wallet and you have it when you have that algorithm lurking around your wallet private keys. Those who bet on the bitcoin price are just outsiders, people with no intention to invest in bitcoin itself but just to have the money grown around its assumptions. As per my knowledge coinable doesn’t provide us any private keys as it is completely web based application and lacks that feature. For greater views of bitcoin you should think about it in simple manner and not just a coin for the wealth over the blockchain. Its more than that and has got many application in the future to come.

webtricks

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Quote from: buwaytress on November 23, 2017, 02:27:18 AM

Quote from: webtricks on November 23, 2017, 02:07:15 AM

Having private keys or not don't imapct the supply of Bitcoins. In case of web wallets and exchanges, users no doubt only have representative value of bitcoin in their wallet and not real coins but those values aren't manipulative and web wallets or exchanges do have those Bitcoins in their cold or hot storage.

snip~

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

You've missed the point, which still stands. A lot of people who think they own Bitcoin actually don't at all. Until only you own the private keys to your wallet, you have absolutely no control over what happens to your coins, and no way of ever verifying if the exchange actually has your coins.

Sure, some exchanges can prove some of their actual Bitcoin balances, but in general most cannot reliably prove solvency. You must have not heard of all the problems with major exchanges to believe they have the system fixed.

And the point is, even if they do, you still have to trust that they will honour your Bitcoin withdrawals.

I did mention this yesterday... why I feel mass use and mass adoption is falsely expanded by a lot of newcomers who actually don't own nor use Bitcoin.

I agree keeping Bitcoins on exchanges is risky and doesn't guarantee you could actually take them out of exchanges and use them in open ecosystem. But still it isn't necessary that Bitcoin has to go via Blockchain everytime in stance of deal. It is ok if people trading it on exchanges. Exchanges themselves are the part of Bitcoin ecosystem and when people trade on exchanges, they are doing in closed ecosystem away from Blockchain, that's it.
Else, if exchanges are legit, you can't doubt on its solvency as there are real Bitcoins backing all the transactions on exchange that users add to exchange's private key held wallet during the time of deposit.

Dudeperfect

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I agree that if you are the owner of the private keys then you own the Bitcoins but there are some exceptions such as Exchange users, Web wallet users, Trezor hardware wallet users where you allow the platform to handle the private keys for you. If you are talking about dummy KYC users, then I have a doubt that millionaires or billionaires hire their accountants to invest and manage Bitcoins/Altcoins/Stocks etc for them because it's the matter of tax planning.

waynechong1995

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I'm not sure how CFD works, but eventually there would be a certain party that lease your earning and to be responsible on your amount of bitcoin that you suppose to have, these exchange could have a pretty good system on managing these stuff, like exchanges we wouldn't able to obtain our private keys locally despite 'having' an address to that actually contain bitcoins, system is down? pretty much the same in every companies to process all your requested transaction in similar fashion, to do the actual bitcoin transaction only when needed, the rest of the movement are just numbers moving around within the trading engine.

FoxTheHuman

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It is very simple to own a certain amount of bitcoin but you have enough economics? No need to own a private key to become a bitcoin owner because there are so many ways to own it.

honeyb0y

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Yes once you put your Bitcoin on exchanges consider that coin to belong to those exchanges until you had it back to your wallet. This is the reason why once those exchanges are hacked or compromised your coin will be included on that. This is just the same as having your money on a bank when the bank collapsed your money will be lost.

DrGuns4Hands

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If you're an owner as well as having control over your bitcoin you should've know that it is not the same. Unless you own a private keys, you have no control over your coins, and no way of knowing if the exchange has your coins.

Tsuyuri

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Is it actually a really smart idea to call them bitcoin owners? if they do not own bitcoins also there are people who have a lot of altcoins and they are worth as much as a bitcoin i believe you can call them bitcoin owners as they own the same price.

krishnapramod

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Quote from: player514 on November 23, 2017, 02:56:35 AM

Quote from: sukamasoto on November 23, 2017, 02:52:57 AM

I think most people already understand that as long as their btc is on exchanger, they not fully own it until they move into wallet like blockchain/electrum,etc
They put their btc for trading purpose and after sometime they will move btc eventually

I mean technically the BTC is theirs isn't it? If the exchange is just the platform in which the bitcoins are stored, doesn't that mean that the exchange needs to provide the user with a personal wallet for deposits and such?

I see what you're saying, but In my opinion, the person using the exchange still owns the bitcoin.

Owning and having control over your Bitcoin aren't the same, private keys makes the difference. Custodial wallets and exchanges does provide the users a wallet, but not keys. So theoretically it could be said you own the Bitcoins when you keep them on an exchange or move them to an exchange, but technically since you don't have control over them, do you really own them? Nope.

Keeping small amounts of Bitcoin for trading purposes on reputable exchanges is necessary for active traders, but when you can be your own bank, keeping everything on exchanges would be foolishness. And that's what a lot of newbies are doing now.

TagaMungkahi

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Quote from: webtricks on November 23, 2017, 02:07:15 AM

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

On coins.ph, Yes they always makes sure that there is a right flow on their exchange and they do have their own limit daily but you do not get that They have their own margin of price which give them profit and Bitcoins at the same time, including the transaction fees, so for me i do not think that they are synced or symmetrical cash/bitcoin flow on their system. They are just good at managing these exchanges but i really doubt if they have that Bitcoin reserves and Cash reserves, I believe more on trading and also the profit on Buy/Sell Margin and Transaction fees as well.

8270thNinja

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busy in real life, long post gap is understandable

Online Bitcoin wallet and exchanges do have my private key and anytime they can get it but hey wait, Government monitors and approved these exchanges ( i'm talking about coins,ph) therefore, my money is safe and they will get accountable if something will happen to my money and bitcoin.

Buying Bitcoin on online wallet will not give you a Bitcoin only an amount recorded to their database and these posters should get what buwaytress are trying to say.

To TS: You don't have your own bitcoin if you don't have your private key. You are just using their services and about the money on buying and selling bitcoin, They have the margin for that and they are also trading the money you are giving to them. IT IS NOT SYMMETRICAL OR SYNC WITH WHAT WALLET YOU HAVE, DON'T BE BLIND.

player514

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Quote from: sukamasoto on November 23, 2017, 02:52:57 AM

I think most people already understand that as long as their btc is on exchanger, they not fully own it until they move into wallet like blockchain/electrum,etc
They put their btc for trading purpose and after sometime they will move btc eventually

I mean technically the BTC is theirs isn't it? If the exchange is just the platform in which the bitcoins are stored, doesn't that mean that the exchange needs to provide the user with a personal wallet for deposits and such?

I see what you're saying, but In my opinion, the person using the exchange still owns the bitcoin.

sukamasoto

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I think most people already understand that as long as their btc is on exchanger, they not fully own it until they move into wallet like blockchain/electrum,etc
They put their btc for trading purpose and after sometime they will move btc eventually

buwaytress

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Quote from: webtricks on November 23, 2017, 02:07:15 AM

Having private keys or not don't imapct the supply of Bitcoins. In case of web wallets and exchanges, users no doubt only have representative value of bitcoin in their wallet and not real coins but those values aren't manipulative and web wallets or exchanges do have those Bitcoins in their cold or hot storage.

snip~

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

You've missed the point, which still stands. A lot of people who think they own Bitcoin actually don't at all. Until only you own the private keys to your wallet, you have absolutely no control over what happens to your coins, and no way of ever verifying if the exchange actually has your coins.

Sure, some exchanges can prove some of their actual Bitcoin balances, but in general most cannot reliably prove solvency. You must have not heard of all the problems with major exchanges to believe they have the system fixed.

And the point is, even if they do, you still have to trust that they will honour your Bitcoin withdrawals.

I did mention this yesterday... why I feel mass use and mass adoption is falsely expanded by a lot of newcomers who actually don't own nor use Bitcoin.

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Quote from: carriebee on November 01, 2017, 05:47:48 PM

Quote from: djgtr on November 01, 2017, 05:38:36 PM

Quote from: _Dawid_ on November 01, 2017, 04:23:23 PM

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

Yes exactly, some of bitcoin owners dont own bitcoin probably because they already sold their own. Others early adapters already sold their own bitcoin because of the currently price is very expensive. And, most already convert into fiat using it emergency purposes or use it in daily expenses.

This is correct. We do have the freedom on how we gonna use our bitcoin and its not really necessary for us to store it specially when we are in need of money specially on emergencies or any possible plans in your mind.
Some do actively sell it once they do attain it and thats what happening on my side which i do sell them off once i do earn them.I dont plan for future savings as long i do earn money.Dont hate me since i do need money for daily basis and its not necessary for me to follow what others doing as of now.

webtricks

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Quote from: razzor85 on November 01, 2017, 02:21:04 PM

Hi,

I have the feeling that the Bitcoin price of 6600$ is much too less. I think the price should be more than 100,000$.
Everybody speaks about Bitcoin, but there are only 16 million of coins.

Limited supply is the backbone of increasing Bitcoin price. You can't say that because of limited supply, everyone can't own Bitcoin and that's why price is less. Read about demand-supply law and you will be more clear.

Quote

And in my opinion, there are a huge number of people they own bitcoin.

So, I think that many people own "Bitcoins without having the private key".

Do we have already virtual coins in the market outside of the blockchain? Are the Bangsters back?

Was Bitcoin not created because of this?

Having private keys or not don't imapct the supply of Bitcoins. In case of web wallets and exchanges, users no doubt only have representative value of bitcoin in their wallet and not real coins but those values aren't manipulative and web wallets or exchanges do have those Bitcoins in their cold or hot storage.

Quote

Now we have already CFD contracts: You can bet on the price of bitcoin without having the coin.

CMD or Futures market having nothing to do with Bitcoin and its price.

Quote

You have coinbase, I am not sure but you cannot export the private key. Is this correct?

Correct.

Quote

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available? Grin

Again same thing, exchanges do have real Bitcoins with them equivalent to what users have on their representative wallets. There is constant influx/outflux on exchanges which ensures there is symmetrical cash (Bitcoin) flow on system. Which ensures in the case all users withdrawing Bitcoins, exchanges have enough to pay them all.

Jeremiesaranza

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Exactly yes..because some owner sell their own Bitcoin and nothing left in their wallet..they sell it during the value of Bitcoin increases

carriebee

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Quote from: djgtr on November 01, 2017, 05:38:36 PM

Quote from: _Dawid_ on November 01, 2017, 04:23:23 PM

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

Yes exactly, some of bitcoin owners dont own bitcoin probably because they already sold their own. Others early adapters already sold their own bitcoin because of the currently price is very expensive. And, most already convert into fiat using it emergency purposes or use it in daily expenses.

djgtr

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Quote from: _Dawid_ on November 01, 2017, 04:23:23 PM

Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

well i believe some bitcoin owners didnt own because they invest it for good and theres nothing left behind on thier wallet .they are really smart and they are really experience person they know they can gain on investing and trqding with bitcoin that is why they use all thier btc or maybe they convert it inyo fiat then save.

_Dawid_

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Yeah that is right you can bet on the price without having a coin but it looks like you would have... The main different here is that you will be never able to spend that "coin" for anything. You can only bet with CFD on market. To be honest it is nothing else what traders are doing currently with bitcoin. As you said with keys. But here is a little different that bitcoin's traders are able to spend their coins for any goods any time. The CFD concrat won't give you this chance. By the way the CFSs contracts seems to be interesing idea.

Silberman

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Quote from: razzor85 on November 01, 2017, 02:21:04 PM

Hi,

I have the feeling that the Bitcoin price of 6600$ is much too less. I think the price should be more than 100,000$.
Everybody speaks about Bitcoin, but there are only 16 million of coins.

And in my opinion, there are a huge number of people they own bitcoin.

So, I think that many people own "Bitcoins without having the private key".

Do we have already virtual coins in the market outside of the blockchain? Are the Bangsters back?

Was Bitcoin not created because of this?

Now we have already CFD contracts: You can bet on the price of bitcoin without having the coin.
You have coinbase, I am not sure but you cannot export the private key. Is this correct?

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available? Grin

I have many questions, but what do you think?

You are covering lots of ground but lets try, those people that have their money at an exchange and do not have possession of their private keys are in a situation no different than a person holding his funds in the bank, so in a way you are correct, even if they are the owners of that bitcoin since they are not the sole possessors of their private keys then they do not own bitcoin, and second the forks only create altcoins not bitcoins so no banker can print bitcoin at will even if that is what they want.

razzor85

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Hi,

I have the feeling that the Bitcoin price of 6600$ is much too less. I think the price should be more than 100,000$.
Everybody speaks about Bitcoin, but there are only 16 million of coins.

And in my opinion, there are a huge number of people they own bitcoin.

So, I think that many people own "Bitcoins without having the private key".

Do we have already virtual coins in the market outside of the blockchain? Are the Bangsters back?

Was Bitcoin not created because of this?

Now we have already CFD contracts: You can bet on the price of bitcoin without having the coin.
You have coinbase, I am not sure but you cannot export the private key. Is this correct?

Many people have bitcoins on the exchanger, but they don't have the private key. Have all the exchanger really the bitcoins they trade.
Or have they only enough bitcoins for some people to transfer to a bitcoin address. But what would happen if all exchanger users transfer the
Bitcoins to a Bitcoin address. Have we then again, the message the system is at the moment not available? Grin

I have many questions, but what do you think?

Topic: Some Bitcoin owners do not own Bitcoin. (Read 600 times)