Topic: Something As Revolutionary As Bitcoin Is About To Emerge, Net Failed To Notice! (Read 16839 times)

The question is do we need it? Most users just want to surf and download stuff FAST. If it offered faster speeds then yes i would be up for it.

https://github.com/maidsafe

https://github.com/maidsafe/MaidSafe/wiki/Build-Instructions

Seems to me that an ISP being able to track your usage might not be relevant. The information you access would be chunked. This means that you would receive parts of it from all over the place. It would all be decrypted inside your computer, so nobody would know what you had received anyway. The chunked data constantly moves in the network from computer to computer as it is accessed and changed by the owner, and as computers shut down for the evening and re-start the next morning. It would take a tremendous amount of tracking capability to track this and algorithmically guess what it was that was being tracked and why. In fact, the tracking capabilities would need to be on an order of what it would take to crack the Bitcoin encryption. Can't be done without quantum computers, and it might even be difficult for them. Or does someone have an idea how to do it?

Looks wonderful! OP are you the owner?

My point was that it *takes time* to trust a system. Freenet has been around for many years, having experienced and ironed out countless serious unforeseen bugs.




How is it not "completely anonymous"? (As if anything can be.) Are you referring to freenet-opennet, or freenet-darknet -- the latter being the goal, the former being discouraged, but even so, has never been de-anonymized in practice?

It is indeed slow, and not currently suited for real-time low-latency usage. (But nevertheless great for forums and popular file sharing.) What are MaidSafe's latency numbers?



Huh? I meant that with trustless opennet's, there is a very serious risk of Agents infiltrating your peers, or poisoning bootstrapping lists, or Sybil-like attacks, etc. Friend-to-friend (darknets as opposed to p2p opennets) offer the only credible solution to this, IMHO.

Check out
https://github.com/maidsafe/MaidSafe-common/blob/master/include/maidsafe/common/data_types/structured_data_versions.h

Which is managed on leveldb in the version managers on the network (i.e. massively scaled). You can see most of the code for those here. I am still not happy all the components here are distributed enough and c++ type erasure for serialisation is a nightmare, but may improve soon.

https://github.com/maidsafe/MaidSafe-Vault/tree/master/src/maidsafe/vault/version_handler

So it's bit structured and unstructured data. We will not answer the whole worlds questions for every app and use case, just like Tim Berners lee, Vint Cerf or Satoshi. Everyone should participate, extend improve and innovate. I think this is a better view of the network than today's centralised one though.

My vision is a free, secure, private Internet owned by us all fro us all and I do not care who gets it done. I just want it done and whoever shares this vision is a friend of mine and I will help them where I can. If my friends make mistakes I will support them, not because they are my friends, but because I wish to realise my vision and live in a world tomorrow that is fairer than today.

This stuff is different, bitcoin was different, it's not an overnight revelation, but I am happy to keep answering questions where I can, to find weakness and to improve continually as we must.

Again great suggestions questions and comments.

@metaquestions
David Irvine

Apart from all that, how do I use it then?
I couldn't find any client software so far.

so its like an advanced version of emule and those early to mid 2000 apps ?

This network still relies on the existing infrastructure of the Internet. Users would need to build a new network for this to be a true , next generation p2p network.

Is this thing kind of related to http://openlibernet.org/?
I'm a bit confused about all of these incredibly interesting concepts, but they are awfully understandable.
Could someoune please make a list and a brief description of each.. Including maidsafe, openlibernet, ethereum and all of these "bitcoin inspired" network related freedom protocols. As i'm guessing one's complement each other's pitfalls
Thank you all. 

But HOW? They can claim anything they want, but I've read nothing in the technical specifications that could explain how such a thing is possible. All I'm seeing are details for how to create an encrypted and distributed storage system. Those qualities do not automatically make it capable of supporting distributed dynamic websites without central servers. I want an explanation for how that is possible before I will believe it. There are far too many problems preventing such a thing for me to automatically believe it.

How do they get around performance issues? Seems like people in rural areas will not be able to participate. I live in a rural area and do not have fiber so my internet connection is quite slow 1Mbps - 2Mbps. If I want to store a file on MaidSafe that is say 100MB in size (not that large) it would be difficult to access that file.

I'm wondering how the local caching model works. Is there a local cache of your data and that gets split up and replicated across nodes in encrypted chunks? How will I get fast access to my own data on a slow internet connection?

Question: Wuala did something like this a while back, but has since stopped after being acquired by Lacie (and becoming just another dropbox clone in the process). Are there any similar existential risks for this project?

And thank you very much for your help. it's great to get so many questions and suggestions. On the Tor issue mentioned above in MaidSafe the IP address is scrubbed on first hop. The other big difference is we stay on the decentralised Internet so don't exist back to servers.

Thanks again folks we will try and make sure the token based system works as well to get rid of any licensing issues and allow people to earn by providing resources to folk who cannot.  I hope MaidSafe becomes unknown and the projects building on it become famous. Most of all I hope our vision is realised and the world becomes more fair. There are additions I am very keen to make and it's outlined here if anyone is interested. http://metaquestions.me/2014/02/10/a-compelling-business-strategy-for-a-fair-world/

This is not my project, i'm just trying to get this technology to be known by more people.

No investments necessary, this is not about making money, this is about making the internet private. Although they may be crypto-currencies which will live on the network.

This is not designed to get rid of ISPS, read my previous posts...

Look at my previous post, where i quote the dev about what is possible with the maidsafe network. Dynamic websites are more than possible.

Then explain why Freenet gives you a certain level of anonymity from ISP's, surely?

Sorry to burst your bubble with a real practical problem.

Who is going to maintain all the wiring, fibre optics and so on without ISP's doing this?

Who is going to lay down new cables in new areas being built?

In my country, the biggest isps lay down fibre cables in new neighbourhoods and maintain older wiring
by replacing them on time.

If you would create an internet on THEIR cables, they will do whatever they feel they need to, to shut it down and I would have to agree with them.

They paid for the wiring. They built it in cooperation with the government on some places.

If you do not tackle THIS problem, you can hope for a darknet scale adoption at best.

I live in Europe.

How can I run the code on windows?

Well it has some problems but I can see that being fixed it is certainly more that anyone is offering at the moment. Wish you all the best!

I wasn't able to find anything on google.  I think it's something we have to email them about?

Maybe they have collected millions so far but this is a miniscule amount if this thing is later worth billions like Netscape and Mozilla.

It's recieved millions in investments? I can't find any informaiton on how to invest.

+1

I read on one page that they received millions in investments already.

How do I invest?   

Is this already in operation, how do I sign in?

Thanks for posting BitCloud was my first exposure to the idea, however BitCloud seemed way too ambitious.
Are the two ideas exclusive or mutually beneficial?

there's a great google tech talk on youtube about safemaid... couple of years old but the concepts are well explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLA77zxk-vA

Hm. I would like to know more technical details.
Obviously this will use some kind of DHT for routing and finding data? How can it still be fast then (esp. in terms of ping)?
How much overhead will a user experience due to relaying other people's data streams?
How do you ensure only a certain user will be able to access their own account(s), what about the risk of those autologin credentials getting stolen via regular internet which the machine will obviously still be connected to?

Make a maidsafecoin :p

I think the real question here is, how do we earn from it?

Cool.

In which case all the talk about privacy is moot as the ISP has all your traffic records ready to pass on to whoever pays the most surely?

I've been reading a bit about this and from what I can tell it's essentially just a complex P2P storage system, I cannot see how it will offer the ability to create actual dynamic websites without a server. I'm not exactly sure why it would be so much better than existing platforms. Tribler for example is essentially a completely decentralized torrent network which offers a good deal of privacy and advanced techniques for rewarding those who share their bandwidth and disk space. Honestly Bitcloud seems much more interesting to me...

If you are concerned with this theres an open reddit discussion with the dev about licencing here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/1yatpz/maidsafe_uses_proprietary_licensing_and_a/

Not surprised, peer to peer client hardware with decentralised location services are an exceptionally hard thing to do. It is quite a few years away before it even gets out of the data centre.

Put money into what infrastructure?

And what do you mean act as ISP?

And what was i trying?

Edit: i think i understand what you are trying to say.


Question 1:

There is no need to put money into any infrastructure, if you want to upload data, you will need to be able to provide the equivalent amount of data to the network. This is in contrast to the traditional method of buying server space.

Question 2:
You do not act as an ISP, you still use the existing ISP you have. You are part of a decentralized network of nodes, if you go offline, the network will not die and data will not be lost as multiple backups are distributed amongst the nodes (although your rank will lower) . You do this if you value freedom, privacy and anonymity.

More importantly it's GPL3 + commercial license, leading me to believe they require copyright assignment. That's a basically death sentence to a library.

nice try.

now tell me: why should anyone put money into infrastructure or act as ISP, if the ability to make money by selling one's customers is taken away?

I think as the internet is getting walled up, this kind of project is going to get stronger. 

Together we will rule the galaxy as father and son

Thanks for posting - this is very interesting stuff.

It kind of compliments BTC very well also 

This looks amazing. I wonder how long files are stored? Is it like freenet? The potential of data de-duplication in distributed networks is massive. Can't wait to see this in action.

AFAI remember David (the dev from the SEP2013 meeting) mention that somewhere during the session, that you basically need the ISP only to be online. As now in principle. I wish the audio had been a bit better, was hard to catch all he said being a non-English speaker myself.

Isn't there still a need for an ISP to get traffic onto the network?

Really awesome looking project! Thanks for posting.

All the code is open source. MaidSafe has mostly done in house testing but you can download and build the code to see it all working.
Tutorials are going to be rolled out very soon:  


"We are showing some examples in tutorial we have started,
These will be!
1: Will show a Dropbox type solution (will start and hopefully complete this month Feb 2014)
2: Will be secure messaging
3: Video provisioning system (i.e. youtube)
4: Fully distributed websites with no ability to ddos or close. Perfect for Wikileaks and in our opinion everyone!
5: Show secure websites where you can join with no username or password (your id creates keys for that site and auto authenticates)
6: Browser and/or plugins to traverse the decentralised web. (we would prefer others did this tutorial)
Anyone can take these tutorials, create a business and give the code away, charge for the service, whatever they can create and however they want to create it, it's 100% their choice.
As for the rest, well we think the people out there will come up with amazing new technologies that will bewilder us all."



i2p is not a server-less solution, it operates similar to the tor network hence its slow, not very scalable, websites can still be seized and ddosed
Freenet, if you have ever tried it is extremely slow and not completely anonymous.

Maidsafe answer to that in their FAQ:
What makes MaidSafe stand out from other projects that promise a decentralized Internet (BitCloud, Meshnet, Freenet, etc.)?

We differ from many of the organisations and products in our space as we have the decentralized Internet at the core of our design. Some of these projects are currently trying to add components that bend them into the shape of a decentralized Internet, but this is not what they were designed for. As a result, many of these projects require significant set up and only work on certain platforms. It is worth noting that MaidSafe supports any project that backs a decentralized Internet, however we don't see any with the same vision as MaidSafe: Privacy, Security and Freedom for everyone!

Thats an issue with encryption and security and not with the concept of a decentralized internet.



Let me also end by saying look how popular bitcloud is compared to  maidsafe, maidsafe does not get anywhere near the amount of recognition amongst the internet community. Bitcloud has barley even started development.

WOW - just watched the video - looks awesome!
I guess governments are already looking into how they can snoop - or block this?
Well done to the developers indeed!

edit: and interesting to follow the outcome of the problem discussed in the video from the dev meeting in September 2013

Perhaps because it takes time to develop trust in the security of a network? (Which includes trust in the core software, the network and infrastructure, and the core devs.) How long has MaidSafe operated in the wild?

Perhaps because the market is already kindof satisfied with existing solutions? (Freenet, I2p.)

Perhaps because trustless opennet's are doomed by design? (This is why Freenet strongly encourages moving to a strictly darknet friend-to-friend model.)

yeah I  admire meshnet and its goals in getting rid of ISP's.

But the core dev/founder of maidsafe has a few criticisms of meshnet which can be found in this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUHtfkvurFM&list=UUhDck5R_C9i6XTrS66tbwOw#t=629

A step in the right direction, now we need peer to peer client hardware with a decentralised location services. A world without the ISP, cable carrier, get closer but is a long way, away yet.

MaidSafe

End To End Encrypted True Peer To Peer Internet, 7 years in development

http://maidsafe.net/


Features:

The MaidSafe vision is to replace today's existing server centric and intrusive systems with a fully distributed, safe, secure and private network. A network with no third party being able to intercept, copy, steal, sell or otherwise access the network’s data.

The MaidSafe platform provides a distributed network that allows developers to create fast and secure applications of any kind. With no API key to be purchased and no infrastructure required, developers are not exposed to any financial risk with significantly reduced customer acquisition costs.

No Servers

No servers = no data centres
100% server security (there are no servers)
Impervious to web censoring (no DNS)
Denial of Service attacks rendered invalid via opportunistic caching - See diagram
Unlimited data storage with no monetary cost and no transactions
No Administrators - Only Users

Network automatically configures and reconfigures in near real time
Privacy and data protection via thousands of algorithms on hundreds of nodes working in tandem
Network decides in real time where data is stored
Data caches close to users in real time
Remove need for network provisioning and planning (hint, computers are better at this than us)
No data centres, so no data centre staff
Data Management Security

Invisible to users, all data is encrypted in real time
Real time data de-duplication, reduces amount of data stored
Real time replication, recovery and corruption repair
Geographic distribution of 'replicant' data (allowing mass network outage at zero loss)
Cryptographically secure signatures and key's ensure ownership
Nobody has access to anyone else's data unless specifically shared
Password and Key Security

100% protection against passwords being stolen in transit (they are never transmitted)
Three (minimum) distinct system areas with separate keys and IDs (no network link between them)
Login to system with username, pin and password
Store, retrieve and manipulate your data with another ID (cryptographic key set)
Communicate with others through another ID
For every private share, another key chain is created and shared
Share any Kind of Data

Create private shares between friends and colleagues (instantly and securely)
Create any number of public shares for public data (thin web sites)
Create micro-blogging systems
Create social networking systems
Share anything, music, programmes, photos, even operating systems with no size limits
Distribute Applications

Allow enormous apps on the smallest of devices
Share processing, storage and memory across the network, distributing each of them automatically
Structured data versioning allows roll back, automatic and manual merging as appropriate to your application