staff were asked to stop advertising mixing services

dragonvslinux

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Quote from: Plaguedeath on March 29, 2023, 11:37:13 PM

This forum is following the US laws, since SEC is getting serious about Bitcoin mixer, US might likely ban Bitcoin mixing service regardless what's the purpose is, if it's happen then theymos is forced to agree with the law. Asking all the moderators to not participate in mixer campaign is a preventive way to protect this forum, no one want to see this forum get shut down by SEC isn't?

Given we're unlikely to hear the answer, this is probably the most likely reason. If theymos can't advertise mixing services on the forum, then his staff shoudn't either, as it'd be on behalf of bitcointalk to some degree.

Overall, what individuals do on this forum by advertising mixers has different level of scrutiny (much lower) than an entity like bitcointalk promoting mixing services...

Dr.Bitcoin_Strange

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Quote from: joker_josue on March 29, 2023, 06:20:46 PM

The forum is open to the public, and anyone can post anything they want, as long as it's not illegal. Then moderation only has to limit published information that is illegal. Mixers are not illegal, so anyone can post information about them.

So the option of not advertising services that are more sensitive to having problems, is better than having these inconveniences.

That's correct, though; the forum is open to the public just like every other social media platform where, by right, other general members or users can advertise what they like as not as it's not illegal and NSFW.
So with these, mixers signatures don't get banned in the forum, but if Theymos gets a bit tense, he may be forced to stop it. Like I know, everyone has their own motivation for joining this forum. Who knows if these investigation agencies are even among us, hiding and digging up information here every day to see if they can get any valid evidence to used against the forum. As far as I know, this is the only Bitcoin community that is very strong and steadily clean, to aavoid scams and shite stuffs here.

joker_josue

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Quote from: dimonstration on March 30, 2023, 06:33:21 AM

Casino has a KYC policy for AML if you are not aware. Casino has a legal defense mechanism which they actively caught money launderer while mixer services protects the customer privacy. I hope you knew what's the big difference on the issue that you point out.

Mixer doesn't screen if the transaction is from a launderer or not since their service is for privacy purposes. This is the grey area that they are talking about. Gambling on the other hand has a license to operate.

It is not for a casino or any other service, following the procedures of the law for its sector, which prevents it from being used for money laundering.

I'm not saying that they do, I'm just saying that it's a sector that is used a lot for that purpose. By the way, this happened long before the emergence of cryptocurrencies and mixing services.

Quote from: NotATether on March 30, 2023, 06:37:01 AM

Now I have nothing against casinos, even used some of them myself, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any platform, mixer or casino, that doesn't have black marks on it.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If they say they don't want to get involved in the matter, because it is a service that, despite not being illegal, is in a gray area of the law, I understand. Now, it's not because it's a possible scam.

NotATether

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Quote from: dimonstration on March 30, 2023, 06:33:21 AM

Casino has a KYC policy for AML if you are not aware. Casino has a legal defense mechanism which they actively caught money launderer while mixer services protects the customer privacy. I hope you knew what's the big difference on the issue that you point out.

It also means that casinos have to hold user funds which they believe violate their Terms of Service, which in turn means they are subject to a shitton of scam accusations, which you can see by scrolling in the first page of Scam Accusations board - 75% of them are against a casino.

Now I have nothing against casinos, even used some of them myself, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any platform, mixer or casino, that doesn't have black marks on it.

dimonstration

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Dimon69

Quote from: joker_josue on March 30, 2023, 06:12:29 AM

Quote from: dimonstration on March 30, 2023, 03:36:27 AM

Quote from: joker_josue on March 29, 2023, 01:43:02 PM

But these points are valid for other services:
- What guarantee is there that a casino doesn't close and scam all its users?
- What guarantee is there for any service that is advertised to state that it has privacy, and not actually does not?

Just a comment on this, Comparing a casino running away to a potential money laundering case is not that rate . The weight of crime for laundering is enough to seize the forum compared to a mere casino that usually protected by their ToS in times that they need to shut down. They just simply need to declare bankruptcy. What reason can a mixing service use for a potential laundering?

I don't know if you know, but casinos are one of the best ways to launder money. Roll Eyes

Either way, the observation I made, on the issue of scams, not illegality. Casinos or any other service that is advertised here may later turn out to be a scam. We have no way of predicting this.

So I say that the reasons that eventually led to this decision are not intended to be a scam, but potential problems with the authorities.

Casino has a KYC policy for AML if you are not aware. Casino has a legal defense mechanism which they actively caught money launderer while mixer services protects the customer privacy. I hope you knew what's the big difference on the issue that you point out.

Mixer doesn't screen if the transaction is from a launderer or not since their service is for privacy purposes. This is the grey area that they are talking about. Gambling on the other hand has a license to operate.

joker_josue

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Quote from: dimonstration on March 30, 2023, 03:36:27 AM

Quote from: joker_josue on March 29, 2023, 01:43:02 PM

But these points are valid for other services:
- What guarantee is there that a casino doesn't close and scam all its users?
- What guarantee is there for any service that is advertised to state that it has privacy, and not actually does not?

Just a comment on this, Comparing a casino running away to a potential money laundering case is not that rate . The weight of crime for laundering is enough to seize the forum compared to a mere casino that usually protected by their ToS in times that they need to shut down. They just simply need to declare bankruptcy. What reason can a mixing service use for a potential laundering?

I don't know if you know, but casinos are one of the best ways to launder money. Roll Eyes

Either way, the observation I made, on the issue of scams, not illegality. Casinos or any other service that is advertised here may later turn out to be a scam. We have no way of predicting this.

So I say that the reasons that eventually led to this decision are not intended to be a scam, but potential problems with the authorities.

LoyceV

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Quote from: BenCodie on March 30, 2023, 03:40:45 AM

T3PR00t is probably hinting at Switzerland considering that is globally renowned as the "neutral" country.

They're neutral in most political conflicts, but that doesn't mean they can't have restrictions online. I don't know Swiss law though.

Quote from: NotATether on March 30, 2023, 03:53:33 AM

In fact, in the wake of CM's demise, there have been more mixers advertising here than ever.

Makes sense, they're all jumping at a chance to take CM's place.

Zwei

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 30, 2023, 03:28:02 AM

Quote from: T3PR00T on March 29, 2023, 04:01:50 PM

If bitcointalk is hosted in US territory then this is the high time to move it to a neutral location where none of the members to worry about it.

Which country do you suggest? Consider this:

Quote from: https://bitcointalk.org/contact.php

Bitcointalk.org aims to enable as much freedom for its users as is legally possible. We will not remove content just because it annoys you.

How many countries really allow that?

we should just do a fundraiser and build a data center on the moon, problem solved.

dzungmobile

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Quote from: digaran on March 29, 2023, 07:38:43 PM

Seems like theymos was waiting for the law to say it's not good to advertise mixers. Well, a leader should make the rules before others make them for him.

It is an interesting opinion from one of mixer operator years ago in 2017 and explained why they decided to self-close their service. If you feel interested in, you can explore more from the user's post history.

Quote from: BITMIXER.IO on July 27, 2017, 10:28:17 AM

I received a lot of questions by PM, let's clear the situation.

1. We are not under feds control, all our users are safe, all logs and old wallets deleted. We had incredible multiserver custom written Bitcoin software and outstanding mixing algorithm. It is impossible find out even the fact you used bitmixer (it is possible only by logs of your provider if you didn't use tor version). We didn't had linked wallets, traceable ip addresses etc. Don't worry about your past transactions.

2. We do not sell the domain name nor our software nor methods we used for mixing.

3. All I wrote is true. I've changed the view of this business and Bitcoin future. About question "is a knife good or bad tool?". If you sell knifes and you know that most of your clients are murders, will you stop your business? My pastor suggest me it is not a business I should continue. Sorry for that.

4. The message to other mixers. If even btc-e considered as money laundering service, what do you think about your business? Don't be innocent.

Very important message for our investors who still didn't take money. Please take your principal using your investor panel.

Thank you.

NotATether

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Quote from: decodx on March 29, 2023, 01:44:47 PM

I agree that the forum is more important than mixers, but disabling advertisements on mixers might not be the best solution.

This change is only for staff accounts as has been mentioned in the OP, not for the rest of us plebs. So you have nothing to worry about.

In fact, in the wake of CM's demise, there have been more mixers advertising here than ever.

BenCodie

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 30, 2023, 03:28:02 AM

Quote from: T3PR00T on March 29, 2023, 04:01:50 PM

If bitcointalk is hosted in US territory then this is the high time to move it to a neutral location where none of the members to worry about it.

Which country do you suggest? Consider this:

Quote from: https://bitcointalk.org/contact.php

Bitcointalk.org aims to enable as much freedom for its users as is legally possible. We will not remove content just because it annoys you.

How many countries really allow that?

T3PR00t is probably hinting at Switzerland considering that is globally renowned as the "neutral" country. I am surprised that to-date BitcoinTalk is still hosted in the US. Maybe after interstellar hosting becomes a reality then BitcoinTalk will make the move to a new jurisdiction Tongue

On a more serious note though, it would be great if the viability of decentralized hosting was discussed. I suppose that it might be a bit late for it to be effective unless forum governance was somehow transitioned to the community and theymos stepped down before the mayhem/anarchy (at least in the eyes of Johnny Law) that would inevitably ensue shortly after the expanse of freedom caused by such a transition.

dimonstration

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Quote from: joker_josue on March 29, 2023, 01:43:02 PM

But these points are valid for other services:
- What guarantee is there that a casino doesn't close and scam all its users?
- What guarantee is there for any service that is advertised to state that it has privacy, and not actually does not?

Just a comment on this, Comparing a casino running away to a potential money laundering case is not that rate . The weight of crime for laundering is enough to seize the forum compared to a mere casino that usually protected by their ToS in times that they need to shut down. They just simply need to declare bankruptcy. What reason can a mixing service use for a potential laundering?

LoyceV

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Quote from: T3PR00T on March 29, 2023, 04:01:50 PM

If bitcointalk is hosted in US territory then this is the high time to move it to a neutral location where none of the members to worry about it.

Which country do you suggest? Consider this:

Quote from: https://bitcointalk.org/contact.php

Bitcointalk.org aims to enable as much freedom for its users as is legally possible. We will not remove content just because it annoys you.

How many countries really allow that?

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: LeGaulois on March 29, 2023, 11:59:35 AM

suppose if HSBC create a signature campaign, it won't be a problem Cheesy

Or that we need to trash all Binance topics and ban every link to Binance since by their own admission:
'Like come on. They are here for crime’

Also, should we ban every link and member posting to kycnot since this is also a directory that provides information to avoid FATF and AML regulations and controls? Oh, but wait!!!! Bisq? Is that legal?

Plaguedeath

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This forum is following the US laws, since SEC is getting serious about Bitcoin mixer, US might likely ban Bitcoin mixing service regardless what's the purpose is, if it's happen then theymos is forced to agree with the law. Asking all the moderators to not participate in mixer campaign is a preventive way to protect this forum, no one want to see this forum get shut down by SEC isn't?

But I don't know what will theymos do when that's happen, possibly theymos might ban all mixing services.

Still remember Silk Road? I think the situation could be like that.

Poker Player

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The topic of Chip Mixer has given a lot to talk about, and about this aspect in particular, there are several conversations scattered throughout the forum. I think it is relevant to bring here a quote from another thread:

Quote from: Halab on March 29, 2023, 12:55:30 PM

Quote from: JollyGood on March 29, 2023, 11:53:14 AM

but does anybody know if any discussions took place to consider banning mixer signatures from the forum?

No, not really. Mixers are in a grey area that is likely to get darker and darker. If the US government decides to ban mixers, the debate will be very short and you will have to learn how to post in the Gambling section

This is just a protective measure for Theymos, for Bitcointalk and (by consequence) for the Staff. For regular users there is (so far) very little risk, but if you have any doubt, go see a lawyer.
Don't overthink my words, I don't see the future, I don't have any secret information and I don't know anything about laws.

yhiaali3

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As it turns out, this is a precautionary measure for the management of the forum to avoid getting into legal troubles, I think it is a wise move at this point because the CM issue can develop and involve some members of the forum.

No one knows yet how the case will end, no one also knows what exactly the data has been confiscated, perhaps investigations are being conducted in secret to find out which members were directly linked to CM.

so I see that this behavior is very good from the management of the forum in order to avoid getting into trouble.

Hispo

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It seems the people behind the maintenance of the forum is just trying not to get in trouble and catch the attention of authorities.
While I do not like what this precedent could mean to all of us, I am aware that there is an abysmal difference between being a regular user of a website like this one from being in charge of the place itself and making sure it stays online and functioning as intended.

I won't say much more since this is rather extra-official information, but I shall keep an eye on it...
If we learn anything from the fall of CM, is that we already have people actively watching over us.

digaran

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Seems like theymos was waiting for the law to say it's not good to advertise mixers. Well, a leader should make the rules before others make them for him.

joker_josue

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Quote from: Dr.Bitcoin_Strange on March 29, 2023, 05:29:48 PM

If staff are the only ones asked to avoid advertising mixers services, how about protecting the safety of the other normal members from advertising mixers signatures? and also to protect the forum because if the US government wants to do an investigation in the forum, the forum staff will still need to answer questions like, "Why do they allow other members to advertise mixers?" which means they are also in support; I'm just curious though.

This analysis is valid, but there turns out to be a difference between staff members and users in general.

The forum is open to the public, and anyone can post anything they want, as long as it's not illegal. Then moderation only has to limit published information that is illegal. Mixers are not illegal, so anyone can post information about them.

Moderators advertising these mixers or any other service, which has problems with the law, can convey the idea that the staff supports these services. Even if this is not true, and it was just advertising. This could create inconvenience for the administration of the forum, which would be forced to have to present more justifications and lose a few hours in court, which in the end would most likely come to nothing. But it would be a nuisance.

So the option of not advertising services that are more sensitive to having problems, is better than having these inconveniences.

LTU_btc

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I think it's completely normal and understandable reaction from theymos after what happened to Chipmixer. Forum staff can be considered as official representative of Bitcointalk. And it's big difference between regular members and forum staff advertising mixers. Regular members can even advertise scams without bigger consequences, other than ruining your reputation. So, this decision was made to avoid getting any potential problems. Better safe than sorry. For now there is no talk about banning advertising mixers for all members.

Dr.Bitcoin_Strange

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Quote from: LeGaulois on March 29, 2023, 11:59:35 AM

Quote

We (staff) were asked to stop advertising mixing services.

If staff are the only ones asked to avoid advertising mixers services, how about protecting the safety of the other normal members from advertising mixers signatures? and also to protect the forum because if the US government wants to do an investigation in the forum, the forum staff will still need to answer questions like, "Why do they allow other members to advertise mixers?" which means they are also in support; I'm just curious though.

but the truth is

Quote

Behind every successful fortune there is a crime.

Even the government staff commits some crimes in the dark for which they don't get any punishment. Like I am aware, money laundering did not start after Bitcoin mixers got launched.

Quote

Historically, money laundering is in existence since at-least 2000 years.
But it gained prominence in 1920's

Because most people who launder money get away with it, should all mixers be banned in the name of preventing money laundering?

government against bitcoin miners, government after CEX, government after bitcoin mixers, soon after government, what's next?

joker_josue

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Quote from: Zilon on March 29, 2023, 04:32:01 PM

It seems there are two contradictory statement here, at first it is pointed that Mixers are not illegal which is very true, So what other law of the country are the staffs meant to follow?, because if there are no laws there will be no violation, So it is obviously not related to where the forum server is located nor has anything to do with staffs who are residents in the US, If it was so the restriction would have been made public.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well.

First point, I didn't say that the moderators were employees or that they were all from the US. I say that before the authorities they can be classified as such, especially if they receive something (I don't know if they do).

Another thing is the fact that mixers are not illegal, but in a gray area of the law. In fact mixers are not illegal, they can exist. But according to the US authorities must comply with some rules. Note this interesting article from Coindesk, in part it says:

Quote from: https://www.coindesk.com/learn/are-crypto-mixers-legal/

In the U.S., the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) considers mixers to be money transmitters under the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) that need to be registered and meet certain requirements. Chainalysis, however, noted in its report that it is “not aware of any bitcoin or Ethereum mixers currently following these rules.”

That is, the existence of mixers is not illegal, but they have to follow some rules. Rules that no one seems to follow. This may give the impression that they are illegal. Well, those who do not comply with these rules are illegal. But, will Bitcointalk have to verify this? Logically not, it is the authorities who have to verify.

Zilon

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Quote from: joker_josue on March 29, 2023, 03:19:28 PM

Right, but we have to rely on the location of the forum servers.
They are located in the US, so you have to follow the laws of that country. Mixers are not illegal, but they are in the gray zone of the law, which can lead to problems (like some that have happened). Casinos are not illegal in the US.

So, the fact that residents (who can be considered employees) are asked to avoid advertising mixers (unless it is true that this request was made), this will allow for a better response to the authorities since they can argue that none of the team is involved in these projects (in a clear way).

It seems there are two contradictory statement here, at first it is pointed that Mixers are not illegal which is very true, So what other law of the country are the staffs meant to follow?, because if there are no laws there will be no violation, So it is obviously not related to where the forum server is located nor has anything to do with staffs who are residents in the US, If it was so the restriction would have been made public.

I just have the notion @Theymos didn't want to disclose the reason for asking staffs to stop advertising mixing services, I believe it should be for the interest of the staffs or yet still could still have a relationship with Chipmixer been shutdown.

T3PR00T

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If bitcointalk is hosted in US territory then this is the high time to move it to a neutral location where none of the members to worry about it.

US does not own Bitcoin, it's name, brand, anything related to it. Bitcoin is for everyone, it has no political boundaries.

With the amount of funding the forum have in btc moving the server is not a big deal.

joker_josue

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Quote from: bitmover on March 29, 2023, 02:40:45 PM

Mixers are illegal in most countries (scamming people or not)

Casinos are also illegal in some countries, scamming people or not

Right, but we have to rely on the location of the forum servers.
They are located in the US, so you have to follow the laws of that country. Mixers are not illegal, but they are in the gray zone of the law, which can lead to problems (like some that have happened). Casinos are not illegal in the US.

So, the fact that residents (who can be considered employees) are asked to avoid advertising mixers (unless it is true that this request was made), this will allow for a better response to the authorities since they can argue that none of the team is involved in these projects (in a clear way).

Pokapoka124

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Quote from: decodx on March 29, 2023, 01:44:47 PM

If we disable ads on mixers, we discourage people from using them.

AFAIK no one stopped the advertisement of mixers, there are mixer campaigns doing business on the forum and just recently a new mixer campaign launched and a lot of members were happy to apply. It’s only staff that have been asked to stop advertising mixers. I think Theymos (if it was Theymos who asked) did that for good reasons considering recent events.

bitmover

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Quote from: joker_josue on March 29, 2023, 01:43:02 PM

But these points are valid for other services:
- What guarantee is there that a casino doesn't close and scam all its users?
- What guarantee is there for any service that is advertised to state that it has privacy, and not actually does not?

Forum motivations are not related to scam or legit services.
It is about regulation and legal issues.

Mixers are illegal in most countries (scamming people or not)

Casinos are also illegal in some countries, scamming people or not.

bitLeap

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Quote from: mindrust on March 29, 2023, 12:03:24 PM

Who exactly said this? I'd like to see the source of this quote if you don't mind. Was this a private message?

These are words from other staff solely to protect the bitcointalk and theymos.
As for the banning of ad mixing, it's still gray, and that's what he said.

Quote from: Halab on March 29, 2023, 12:55:30 PM

This is just a protective measure for Theymos, for Bitcointalk and (by consequence) for the Staff. For regular users there is (so far) very little risk, but if you have any doubt, go see a lawyer.
Don't overthink my words, I don't see the future, I don't have any secret information and I don't know anything about laws.

OgNasty

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Nice to see this forum doing the right thing for it's users finally... Even if this was likely the result of legal action... It was incredibly shady to push these mixers as privacy enabling while almost all of the scams in this community have been laundering their stolen funds through these services. I'm not sure why it took the government shutting down mixers to get action done, but I guess that falls into the anarchist until times get tough leadership we seem to have here. Still, I'm glad that sanity finally prevailed, even if it's currently only staff being asked to not advertise money laundering. A small step in the right direction to keep users here safe and the least that can be done on a site that advertises they don't moderate against scams.

decodx

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I agree that the forum is more important than mixers, but disabling advertisements on mixers might not be the best solution. Mixers can provide anonymity and privacy to users, which are essential features for some people, especially in countries with strict regulations or surveillance. Besides, mixers can also help prevent transaction analysis and improve fungibility, which can enhance the overall security and privacy of the network. If we disable ads on mixers, we discourage people from using them.

However, I think the concern is not about mixers per se, but about the risk of censorship or control by external forces. If the forum is threatened, it makes sense to consider all possible options to preserve it, even if it means sacrificing some other features.

joker_josue

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Quote from: mindrust on March 29, 2023, 12:03:24 PM

If theymos really said this, it is easy to guess his reasoning. You don't need to ask him.

1- Staff endorsing mixers might get the forum in trouble.
2- Mixers can't guarantee your privacy even though they say they do. That's possibly false advertisement.

But these points are valid for other services:
- What guarantee is there that a casino doesn't close and scam all its users?
- What guarantee is there for any service that is advertised to state that it has privacy, and not actually does not?

I can even understand why @theymos might have asked for this. Whether he really did, I don't know.

But those are not the reasons for sure.

The moderation of the forum, can be considered employees, so everyone should avoid situations that put the forum in question.
Anyway, if @theymos really made this kind of request, he must have strong reasons. And I trust him, and his good management of the forum. So we may not understand right now, but at some point, I believe this will clear up.

Upgrade00

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Considering that a public topic was not created it's safe to say that theymos might have not wanted to explain the reason behind the decision. It could be due to all the heat created from the chipmixer situation which indirectly linked to the forum and anywhere else the mixer had an online presence.

It is a drastic decision in my opinion, one which may be to create indemnity; the forum and it's staffs are not directly linked to a mixer and they operate independently. Best case scenario, it's just a precautionary measure against any future occurrence.

dzungmobile

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How about this in future?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61918743

I saw some solid opinion but also some derailed one in that topic and decided to lock it, to avoid spam.

Anyway I really think that if things go bad, disable advertisements on mixers will have to be done. The forum is important than all mixers.

We must to have a bit long term vision (if things go worse) but I know fighting for freedom is not bad.

However, let's see a story, we can not build a house and let everyone get in and out, do anything they want and say we are not responsible for it.

If theymos can stop forum ads banner, the same can be done on mixer signature but it is a hard decision I know.

RapTarX

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Quote from: mindrust on March 29, 2023, 12:03:24 PM

Who exactly said this? I'd like to see the source of this quote if you don't mind. Was this a private message?

If theymos really said this, it is easy to guess his reasoning. You don't need to ask him.

1- Staff endorsing mixers might get the forum in trouble.
2- Mixers can't guarantee your privacy even though they say they do. That's possibly false advertisement.

A staff-

Quote from: OmegaStarScream on March 26, 2023, 01:27:08 PM

We (staff) were asked to stop advertising mixing services.

As for gambling services, then that's simply because of my religious beliefs.

I can't imagine anyone else asking staff to stop advertising mixing services. theymos is the only one.
I guess it's the first reason you shared. The second one seems not true all the time. It can or can't be true. It's better to stop an advertising mixer if the forum gets in trouble.

mindrust

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Quote from: LeGaulois on March 29, 2023, 11:59:35 AM

Howdy Theymos

Quote

We (staff) were asked to stop advertising mixing services.

What's the reasonning behind? Or you prefer anticipate?

I suppose if HSBC create a signature campaign, it won't be a problem Cheesy

Who exactly said this? I'd like to see the source of this quote if you don't mind. Was this a private message?

If theymos really said this, it is easy to guess his reasoning. You don't need to ask him.

1- Staff endorsing mixers might get the forum in trouble.
2- Mixers can't guarantee your privacy even though they say they do. That's possibly false advertisement.

RapTarX

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Quote from: LeGaulois on March 29, 2023, 11:59:35 AM

I suppose if HSBC create a signature campaign, it won't be a problem Cheesy

What about Silicon Valley Bank Cheesy

Well, I guess they can't afford it now LOL.

LeGaulois

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Howdy Theymos

Quote

We (staff) were asked to stop advertising mixing services.

What's the reasonning behind? Or you prefer anticipate?

I suppose if HSBC create a signature campaign, it won't be a problem Cheesy

If there is freedom of speech, I create freedom of advertising

Topic: staff were asked to stop advertising mixing services (Read 708 times)