Topic: Standard forum sales rules/etiquette (Read 385 times)
I agree, there are a few boards that would benefit from a review of what is pinned and what's lacking. The forum keeps growing and people are changing how they use areas, or expected behaviors within them. Either way until then, I just try to promote/spread things I find useful.
Some of the posts here would make good unofficial subforum rules stickies in their respective areas...
So I finally got around to putting together a template for a Broker style thread. [Template] for Brokers or Market type sellers - Not a sale thread
It looks a little confusing at first but instead of actually making a bunch of posts I separated them with a double "horizontal rule" and just linked within the OP. I think it gets the general idea across.
It looks a little confusing at first but instead of actually making a bunch of posts I separated them with a double "horizontal rule" and just linked within the OP. I think it gets the general idea across.
Thanks for your detailed response. I’ll try this out for a few weeks and see how it goes.
Thanks, hopefully this might be actually easier for you to manage and allows for a more streamlined area for your customers to go to. I hope your sales go great we all benefit when this become more efficient. Appreciate the open mind about the topic.
Thanks for your detailed response. I’ll try this out for a few weeks and see how it goes.
I see the discussion has carried on here. I had suggested previously to Scott about creating a Services thread as well to maintain for their general business, I'm glad to see it created. It's a good way for them to handle the generic questions and keep the 4Sale/WTB threads on-topic for the offerings. It could also act like a hub once they establish a name for themselves or promote it, linking it to all other offerings. You are definitely still entitled to create sales threads as well.
Glad to see the consensus being that threads be combined. I'm not sure that there is a need for a separate board though. There are only so many Algo's that have Asics, at the moment, the rest falls under GPU or CPU mining. My idea gave them 1 or 2 sales threads for offerings. The listing would be the OP, and the first 4+ replies to serve as grouping arrangement by Algo, linking each of them in the OP. These would be a revolving door of updates as needed for additions, sold, price or quantity changes. There is also the ability to post certain threads in the Altcoin mining section to further spread the word and threads around.
This would take more initial work and effort from Scott, but once crosslinked would be very easy to maintain and update.
Personally I find it weird now that I don't have to scroll to page 3 in the hardware section to read all new offerings. I just got used to it when I started, and up until recently the page hardly cycled completely every day. So unless we see a large number of Brokers enter the forum I think we can all play nice. There's just always going to be a learning curve as a new business enters.
Scott if you ever want feedback or just someone to bounce ideas off feel free to reach out. Good luck as always.
Glad to see the consensus being that threads be combined. I'm not sure that there is a need for a separate board though. There are only so many Algo's that have Asics, at the moment, the rest falls under GPU or CPU mining. My idea gave them 1 or 2 sales threads for offerings. The listing would be the OP, and the first 4+ replies to serve as grouping arrangement by Algo, linking each of them in the OP. These would be a revolving door of updates as needed for additions, sold, price or quantity changes. There is also the ability to post certain threads in the Altcoin mining section to further spread the word and threads around.
This would take more initial work and effort from Scott, but once crosslinked would be very easy to maintain and update.
Personally I find it weird now that I don't have to scroll to page 3 in the hardware section to read all new offerings. I just got used to it when I started, and up until recently the page hardly cycled completely every day. So unless we see a large number of Brokers enter the forum I think we can all play nice. There's just always going to be a learning curve as a new business enters.
Scott if you ever want feedback or just someone to bounce ideas off feel free to reach out. Good luck as always.
the key issue is
page 1 has 40 threads.
page 2 has 40 threads.
A broker sub-section with 4-5 active threads per broker
allows for 8-10 brokers on that page 1 seems like a good method.
I do not want to lose brokers on this website as I am still expanding and having access to them helps me.
Having started mining with 1 gpu in 2012 I don't want to force the little guy out.
So if mods want only 1 section here then brokers should have 2-3 threads.
If we are at 5 brokers that is 15 threads for them on page one
and 25 threads for little and middle sized guys.
page 1 has 40 threads.
page 2 has 40 threads.
A broker sub-section with 4-5 active threads per broker
allows for 8-10 brokers on that page 1 seems like a good method.
I do not want to lose brokers on this website as I am still expanding and having access to them helps me.
Having started mining with 1 gpu in 2012 I don't want to force the little guy out.
So if mods want only 1 section here then brokers should have 2-3 threads.
If we are at 5 brokers that is 15 threads for them on page one
and 25 threads for little and middle sized guys.
Phil I agree, we need the large and small sales in here we just have to figure a way to play nice, it's not overly bad right now but if a couple more brokers come in, this board cant be legitimately used for onesies and twosies
the key issue is
page 1 has 40 threads.
page 2 has 40 threads.
A broker sub-section with 4-5 active threads per broker
allows for 8-10 brokers on that page 1 seems like a good method.
I do not want to lose brokers on this website as I am still expanding and having access to them helps me.
Having started mining with 1 gpu in 2012 I don't want to force the little guy out.
So if mods want only 1 section here then brokers should have 2-3 threads.
If we are at 5 brokers that is 15 threads for them on page one
and 25 threads for little and middle sized guys.
page 1 has 40 threads.
page 2 has 40 threads.
A broker sub-section with 4-5 active threads per broker
allows for 8-10 brokers on that page 1 seems like a good method.
I do not want to lose brokers on this website as I am still expanding and having access to them helps me.
Having started mining with 1 gpu in 2012 I don't want to force the little guy out.
So if mods want only 1 section here then brokers should have 2-3 threads.
If we are at 5 brokers that is 15 threads for them on page one
and 25 threads for little and middle sized guys.
It's great to hear that you guys like to browser by broker name, but that's not have many people browse. Please, I can EASILY ship 1000 miners from Asia to USA for cheap and still deliver on budget as though it were purchased within USA. So, having three threads separated by Region doesn't really solve much.
Separating by Algorithm would make more sense to me. Or separating by new or used miners, or separating my brand or miner type would be nice too. Doing that within a single or within three topics is still not going to be a very nice solution.
Could we start a Mining Equipment Brokers sub forum?
That way, the little guys can have their Computer Hardware forum and the big guys can have their own forum.
Separating by Algorithm would make more sense to me. Or separating by new or used miners, or separating my brand or miner type would be nice too. Doing that within a single or within three topics is still not going to be a very nice solution.
Could we start a Mining Equipment Brokers sub forum?
That way, the little guys can have their Computer Hardware forum and the big guys can have their own forum.
That might be good to have a broker sub. The problem with one post per offer is that you and maybe one or 2 other brokers will always be on page 1. That's fine for a buyer to see everything but for every other seller, they post a wts thread and being pushed to page 2 almost in the same day does not work. The hardware section will dry up eventually with people wanting to sell individual pieces and it will become useless for everyone.
I'm not mad you or anyone else have a bunch of gear to sell I just want to make sure the sub doesn't become a personal sales area for a select few people.
It would be both buyers and sellers, but mostly WTS ads.
=) I'll keep an eye out on it and offer suggestions.
1st suggestion as you are doing both buying and selling, have the first post be one and the second be the other.
Edit* also that thread can technically also be in the goods/hardware section. As you are both offering selling and offering the service of linking buyers and sellers.
1st suggestion as you are doing both buying and selling, have the first post be one and the second be the other.
Edit* also that thread can technically also be in the goods/hardware section. As you are both offering selling and offering the service of linking buyers and sellers.
Notice he stopped posting in October. Why is that? Because it's time consuming and messy most likely.
It was actually March 30th, when you edit a post it keeps it's original creation date / time.My offer was serious by the way, if you don't like my terms feel free to negotiate something different.
Notice he stopped posting in October. Why is that? Because it's time consuming and messy most likely.
It's great to hear that you guys like to browser by broker name, but that's not have many people browse. Please, I can EASILY ship 1000 miners from Asia to USA for cheap and still deliver on budget as though it were purchased within USA. So, having three threads separated by Region doesn't really solve much.
Separating by Algorithm would make more sense to me. Or separating by new or used miners, or separating my brand or miner type would be nice too. Doing that within a single or within three topics is still not going to be a very nice solution.
Could we start a Mining Equipment Brokers sub forum?
That way, the little guys can have their Computer Hardware forum and the big guys can have their own forum.
I could agree with this that brokers can have their own sections with a special ruleSeparating by Algorithm would make more sense to me. Or separating by new or used miners, or separating my brand or miner type would be nice too. Doing that within a single or within three topics is still not going to be a very nice solution.
Could we start a Mining Equipment Brokers sub forum?
That way, the little guys can have their Computer Hardware forum and the big guys can have their own forum.
1 new thread per day, 1 bump per thread per day. This means you can only create one new thread every day and you cannot bump your threads to the top multiple times per day. It just generates spam. I had to go threw multiple pages just to find a thread yet found at least 15 of your threads per page.
Take a look at the layout of this thread.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/kaboom-wts-updated-daily-5042442
It's divided into groups of Sha256 new / used, other asics, gpu's, pdu's etc. Now in those groups it's a bit hard to see what each thing is but it's still nicer than rummaging through multiple pages to find what I want.
When a new offer is put up the OP is updated with the offer and a bump / post is made at the end of the thread saying what was added. If no new offers are available just give your 1 thread a nice bump at the start of the day to get it up if it falls low on the page.
As a buyer I want to be able to easily find things, not rummage multiple pages reading tons of titles.
Make your thread nice and pretty, easy for a buyer to find and not just a ton of I copy pasted this and want to make a quick buck. Treat it like a business, I see on your site you have an image of a spreadsheet that lists all of this information in 1 nice easy to read format, that can easily be put here in one thread. Would you like me to make a thread of all your posts, make it easily readable and buyer friendly? I'll charge a low fee of 15% of any sales it generates
It's great to hear that you guys like to browser by broker name, but that's not have many people browse. Please, I can EASILY ship 1000 miners from Asia to USA for cheap and still deliver on budget as though it were purchased within USA. So, having three threads separated by Region doesn't really solve much.
Separating by Algorithm would make more sense to me. Or separating by new or used miners, or separating my brand or miner type would be nice too. Doing that within a single or within three topics is still not going to be a very nice solution.
Could we start a Mining Equipment Brokers sub forum?
That way, the little guys can have their Computer Hardware forum and the big guys can have their own forum.
Separating by Algorithm would make more sense to me. Or separating by new or used miners, or separating my brand or miner type would be nice too. Doing that within a single or within three topics is still not going to be a very nice solution.
Could we start a Mining Equipment Brokers sub forum?
That way, the little guys can have their Computer Hardware forum and the big guys can have their own forum.
So, you want three threads? not one thread?
I'm not looking for a ton of views to my post. I'm looking for relevant views.
In my use case, I'd need at least separate threads for each Algorithm or separate threads for each model.
It's rare that buyers will surf only one particular user's threads for the latest deals. They want a specific brand or model and a certain quantity. They don't care who posts it.
Your experience might be different than mine. I know people think having one post per offer is spamming, but it's just s different use case than other people have.
Personally I think it can be done with 1, I've been on these forums in one way or another since 2012/2013. The title can have all your offeringsI'm not looking for a ton of views to my post. I'm looking for relevant views.
In my use case, I'd need at least separate threads for each Algorithm or separate threads for each model.
It's rare that buyers will surf only one particular user's threads for the latest deals. They want a specific brand or model and a certain quantity. They don't care who posts it.
Your experience might be different than mine. I know people think having one post per offer is spamming, but it's just s different use case than other people have.
SHA256, GPU's etc. it gives people incentive to check on what you have for sale and builds yourself a name (a good one).
Divide your thread up by zones and types of miners it isn't that hard to use forum / bbcodes.
SHA256
NorthAmerica
OfferID:
Description:
Price:
Location:
Other Stuff:
EU
OfferID:
Description:
Price:
Location:
Other Stuff:
GPU
NorthAmerica
OfferID:
Description:
Price:
Location:
Other Stuff:
Next offer etc. etc.
Also going along the lines of management. It's much easier to keep track and update one thread than multiple.
Scott is correct in that this forum is not setup like telegram.
But fully altering the forum may be too hard or expensive to do.
yankeeswin is correct in that I read all of scotts posts and I read all of kaboom's posts
I am still working on expansion so I look at the broker posts.
If scott structured
europe
asia
americas
I would look at his america posts each and every day.
It would reduce his traffic to 3 posts that mostly stay on pages 1 and 2.
Having kaboom with 20 posts on page 1
Having scott with 20 posts on page 1
Having noordminers with 20 posts on page 1
does not work.
5 brokers with only 3 posts = 15 posts leaves I think 25 spaces for page one.
But fully altering the forum may be too hard or expensive to do.
yankeeswin is correct in that I read all of scotts posts and I read all of kaboom's posts
I am still working on expansion so I look at the broker posts.
If scott structured
europe
asia
americas
I would look at his america posts each and every day.
It would reduce his traffic to 3 posts that mostly stay on pages 1 and 2.
Having kaboom with 20 posts on page 1
Having scott with 20 posts on page 1
Having noordminers with 20 posts on page 1
does not work.
5 brokers with only 3 posts = 15 posts leaves I think 25 spaces for page one.
Guys,
It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
Kaboom does it really well.It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
If it's such a nightmare, put an offer id or something and have a spreadsheet with the offer ID's.
If that's a huge deal, divey out 3 threads, NA, EU and Asia. I'm actually more inclined to look at the larger threads than the smaller ones, for instance once you put ebit I say no thank you and keep scrolling. Yet I check on the bigger threads daily to see if anything was added.
The three thread idea is not too hard.
I personally like to read scott and kaboom as they have a lot of gear to sell. I do not want them only on telegram.
So, you want three threads? not one thread?
I'm not looking for a ton of views to my post. I'm looking for relevant views.
In my use case, I'd need at least separate threads for each Algorithm or separate threads for each model.
It's rare that buyers will surf only one particular user's threads for the latest deals. They want a specific brand or model and a certain quantity. They don't care who posts it.
Your experience might be different than mine. I know people think having one post per offer is spamming, but it's just s different use case than other people have.
I'm not looking for a ton of views to my post. I'm looking for relevant views.
In my use case, I'd need at least separate threads for each Algorithm or separate threads for each model.
It's rare that buyers will surf only one particular user's threads for the latest deals. They want a specific brand or model and a certain quantity. They don't care who posts it.
Your experience might be different than mine. I know people think having one post per offer is spamming, but it's just s different use case than other people have.
Guys,
It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
I spoke with you on telegram. the issue is your format is perfect for telegram because you get an endless scroll just for your company.
and you get a pm section also for you.
Guys,
It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
Kaboom does it really well.It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
If it's such a nightmare, put an offer id or something and have a spreadsheet with the offer ID's.
If that's a huge deal, divey out 3 threads, NA, EU and Asia. I'm actually more inclined to look at the larger threads than the smaller ones, for instance once you put ebit I say no thank you and keep scrolling. Yet I check on the bigger threads daily to see if anything was added.
Guys,
It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
It is really quite useless for me to post so many deals in so many different countries of so many different brands of ASICs all in the same thread. It woul be a management nightmare for me as a broker.
I think it is reasonable to have one post per offer. Each post I make is a different seller/offer and if I combine them all into one, I would have no clue which seller/product someone is referring to when they reply to a post.
I think older posts should simply just drop off to Page 2. It's fair to say that older posts might very well become stale and the OP might not even care about the post after a few weeks. If the owner of a post on page two wants to get their post back on page 1, just update it or bump it or something (according to the rules).
I'm just explaining it from my prospective as an active broker who buys and sells from different people every day. If I had to combine everything into one post, there is no way to get any attention whatsoever for a new offer that I have available.
Are you saying that you want me to continually post to one topics so that every day my post will always be at the very top? That way, it would have hundreds of replies within a few weeks and would ALWAYS get the most attentions, but not necessarily the RIGHT attention.
I need the ability to post different topics for different brands of miners and for different types of offers from various sellers and buyers of mine. Lumping them all into one post would really make bitcointalk useless for me.
Scott
I have asked offordscott to combine his posts.
I have also purchased from offordscott using PayPal.
Hopefully he will combine posts.
The other person noordminers seemed to have reduced to combined his posts.
So a thank you to him.
I have also purchased from offordscott using PayPal.
Hopefully he will combine posts.
The other person noordminers seemed to have reduced to combined his posts.
So a thank you to him.
Thanks Phil. It keeps the board clean and ultimately they will have more sales from one post versus the spam attack method.
I have asked offordscott to combine his posts.
I have also purchased from offordscott using PayPal.
Hopefully he will combine posts.
The other person noordminers seemed to have reduced to combined his posts.
So a thank you to him.
I have also purchased from offordscott using PayPal.
Hopefully he will combine posts.
The other person noordminers seemed to have reduced to combined his posts.
So a thank you to him.
pinning @noordminers 
can't an admin actually close topics here or is it against the rules and liberties ?
can't an admin actually close topics here or is it against the rules and liberties ?
We started using this tactic because we saw members like offordscott doing this...
If it bothers members so much admins can combine all our threads into one.
Why do you have to wait on the mods to do it.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/unofficial-list-of-official-bitcointalkorg-rules-guidelines-faq-703657
Check rule #30, cant you just play the way everyone else does and keep the forum clean or is that too much of a task?
pinning @noordminers
can't an admin actually close topics here or is it against the rules and liberties ?
can't an admin actually close topics here or is it against the rules and liberties ?
We started using this tactic because we saw members like offordscott doing this...
If it bothers members so much admins can combine all our threads into one.
pinning @noordminers
can't an admin actually close topics here or is it against the rules and liberties ?
can't an admin actually close topics here or is it against the rules and liberties ?
This isn't a for sale so maybe not proper here, but for anyone who has multiple hardware items for sale list them in one thread dont make multiple threads for each item. It's actually listed as one of the forum rules and prevents other sales being pushed to page 2 right away. We all have to play nice in the sandbox or it doesn't work for anyone.
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