Topic: STOP SUPPORTING CRIMINALS AND SCAMMERS (Read 3831 times)

No, you understood wrong.

A transaction spending inputs from 1BBBBB... and 1AAAAA... Is sent.

Therefore we can conclude that Anon and Nonny are the same person since they were both able to sign the same transaction. This of course ignores coin joins, but those are easy to spot.

Knowing that your coin is now at 1Baksdjkuashdkahsdkahsiuy tells you exactly nothing. From that address it can go to a mixer/any combination of other stuff I've mentioned. At which point you're basically done. Funny and typical: https://www.reddit.com/r/SheepMarketplace/comments/1rvlft/i_just_chased_him_through_a_bitcoin_tumbler_and
No, you've posted a link to [perhaps someone's/perhaps pure fiction] dox, don't take threads like that seriously.
Am i understanding you right?
1. Anon posts address 1AAAAAAAA...
2. Anon steals
3. Nonny posts address 1BBBBBBBBB...
4. Coins stolen by Anon show up in 1BBBBBBBBB...
5. Via (given)aforementioned & some blockchain sleuthing, we conclude that
    5a. Anon controls 1AAAAAAAA... (given)
    5b. Is thief  (given)
    5c. Nonny controls 1BBBBBBBBB...  (given)
    5d. Anon = Nonny*
    5e. Anon controls 1AAAAAAAA... & 1BBBBBBBBB...*
How does blockchain sleuthing help us?

---

*Stolen coin showing up in 1BBBBBBBBB... proves only that Anon has sent [some] stolen coin to Nonny. Nonny can't stop Anon from sending him coin, BTC pushes transactions.

I am talking about two distinctly different things, analyzing the blockchain to find out where the Bitcoin is going, and finding identities of those who may be involved, potentially through their bitcoin addys.

True, blockchain analysis doesn't lead to IRL identities. But if someone posts an address on this forum, and then steals some bitcoin and sends a transaction that involves both the address the stolen bitcoin were sent to and the address he posted on this forum, then we can assume with reasonable confidence that that person on the forum was the thief. He can be doxxed, people can ask theymos (or governments can subpoena him) for all of the ip addresses ever used by that guy. If at one point he wasn't careful and accidentally used his real ip to access the forum, then people (governements) can go to the ISPs and ask for the information about whoever was using that ip address at whatever time that ip was used to log into the guys account and bingo, you got his IRL identity.

I posted a link to his dox, you must have missed it. Here it is again. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--326914

In the future, hopefully there will be payment processors who also act like the credit card intermediaries (essentially escrows) who can do that or similar.

If your credit card number was stolen, contact your bank....they are FDIC insured in the USA, and you'll get your money back. 

>analyzing the blockchain and getting identities
I'm guessing you're repeating stuff that you heard on the internet, so let's start with TL;DR of what blockchain analysis is all about.

Analyzing blockchain doesn't lead to IRL identities.  The malefactor would have to be mindnumbingly careless and stupid, reuse addresses, be unfamiliar with TOR, proxies, mixers, exchanges, casinos, etc., etc.  Such Keystone Cops' criminal counterpart would literally have to post his IRL identity, along with a bitcoin address where the stolen coin iz, and then publicly make a payment from said address. Only then will it be possible to link IRL identity and transaction.
e.g.
"I am Joe Schmoe from 27 Anystreet, Anytown. I control 1JArS6jzE3AJ9sZ3aFij1BmTcpFGgN86hA, where the stolen money's at; I'm sending  0.003813 BTC to 136pcbRqE5XeayiisdgAiJZezsiQufLH16 at [has to be some future time; after this is posted]."
Even this doesn't tie Joe Schmoe to the transaction--the real crook, the one actually controlling the address, could be impersonating Joe Schmoe, setting him up.  So we'll still need some corroborating evidence.
Of course, the transaction above must be outbound. Having taint from 'criminal' addys in yours is totally meaningless--BTC payments are pushed, any criminal can send a few BTC to your addy.

But even your tongue-in-cheek success story 'TF haz ur coinz,' is not linking transactions and identities.  
Knowing that Anon going by TradeFortress has your money is hardly more enlightening than knowing [BTC address] has your money. Not unless you know who TF is IRL, which you do not.

If I'm in error, please correct, and sorry in advance for straying so far off topic.

That is true, but you forgot about credit card fraud and identity theft. That is also a huge problem with fiat and it costs people millions of dollars a year. But it hasn't and can't be stopped. The only thing people can do is to be careful and not give away their credit card info away so that it gets stolen. Likewise, people with Bitcoin shouldn't give away Bitcoin and get scammed. Their is nothing to stop that, it is going to be a fact of using Bitcoin. What we need to change is the impression. Make Bitcoin seem just like fiat, used as actual money, not magical internet money used for nefarious purposes.

Are you sure ? i would doubt that .... probably you meant to say accounts or else you are certainly wrong as there are no more than 100k users on this forum.


it is difficult for users on this forum ..it takes 5 minutes for the NSA or CIA to dox it...and you can be caught before dinner

I agree....survival of the fittest!  Gullible, feeble minded, uneducated, common folk like grandma should not use bitcoin because they may get ripped off; only the shrewd,  sharp witted, educated, elite should use the technology.  I mean....why should we care if grandma gets ripped off?  It's not OUR money, right?

As much as I agree with it, that is the exact mentality that holds the technology down.  I'm just saying that for bitcoin to become more relevant, it needs to become adopted by a greater crossing section of the population, but that's not what's happening; it's being adopted by a more specialized demographic.  Currency gets its value off the backs of the average laborer and we should be able to put our brilliant minds together to come up with a solution that would include them in the game.  Finding a solution that could protect the average person would benefit us all.

or we could, you know, use our brains and not get scammed in the first place.

it's fiat money more and more and more in illegal traffics.
it's accepted every where by every one, you can spend in a lot of way, also you can deposit and move legal, without giving problem to anyone...
do you have any idea how many money get the criminals groups in the world?
TONS of cash, the entire btc capitalization can cover only a small part of yearly gross income!
and a small "classic" criminal, sometimes doesn't have the knowledge to use safely btc, and prefer cash without doubt...
only some "elite" can use btc... but for very big quantities of money...

I think I said that the "IMPRESSION is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise 'dark market activities'."  I mean, why use bitcoin unless one is buying porn, gambling, avoiding taxes, laundering money, funding terrorists, dealing drugs, or initiating a scam?  That's its "table image" in pokerspeak.  I'm not saying that it doesn't have legitimate uses; I AM saying that it attracts people whom engage in those type of activities.  The hard question is:  How do we, as a community, enforce its tender?  On the streets we beat the fool that robs our homies and that acts as a deterrent.....how do we catch the keyboard pecker who hides behind an avatar to rob our people?

Nice find, I always thought something was very suspicious when these annoying newbies show up making demands of everybody.

Never said that analyzing the blockchain and getting identities would ever recover anyone's Bitcoin. And why would anyone selling goods or services to TF return the coins that TF gave them to his victims? That means a loss for them and no harm done to TF, which is entirely pointless.

Law enforcement?  Huh?  It's Sat. night, I'll assume you're drunk.
But you can track your coins to whoever has them now because blockchain and a little sleuthing. right?  Many people lost shitloads of money with TF, they'll give you the addys they paid from, why not make a quick fortune by figuring out who has them now?

TL;DR: No coins, from any major BTC scam/theft/hack were ever recovered by analyzing 'blockchain & some sleuthing.'

Gox: Mark Karpeles or whatever law enforcement seized his coins
TF: TF does, duh. Or he spent them. Doesn't really matter, but the guy that stole/scammed was TF. Here is his dox

In that case, mind telling me who has the Gox coins? Who has TF's coins? Who has ...well, you point to any major bitcoin theft/hack and tell me who got the coins. I mean, if your blockchain mojo is strong, i'm sure the millions at stake are worth 'some sleuthing,' no?
If I double dog dare you?

What if someone had posted the bitcoin address somewhere like this forum? Then they know what account it belongs to, and they can try to dox it through whatever means people figure out how to dox people.

But addresses won't do much of identification unless a person knows how much was dealt. He could search for the amount in the block chain and it could return some data pointing to the amount in the dealings, but that alone wouldn't do much in terms of identification.

 According to a Readers Digest commissioned study the odds of getting your lost wallet and money returned are 90:102
ie. 47% of the "lost" wallets were returned to their owners.

You can view article here - http://www.rd.com/culture/most-honest-cities-lost-wallet-test/

 I have a cool story about my wife's purse but she would kill me if I told it.  Suffice it to say we got it back with all the money (about $600USD), credit cards, passports, iphone and digital camera.  The person who returned it didn't even leave a name or contact number.

 

Yes, most of that is true. There are ways to identify who an address belongs to, but it is very difficult.

Although your original statement that the majority of transaction is for illegal stuff, I still say that is false. You can't know for sure. Actually, I'm fairly certain a large percentage of those transactions are actually for gambling.

Yes, one can see the transaction on the blockchain...but that's it!  There's no way to enforce the exchange of the goods and there's no way to identify the parties involved.  When one uses fiat, at least, two participants are witness as to the identities of the parties involved, but that's not the case with bitcoin in the majority of its transactions.

Sure, the two people in the transaction will know who are in the transaction, but outsiders will not. Outsiders will not know who was in the transaction. While with Bitcoin, anyone can know everything about the transaction, and with some sleuthing, they can even figure out the identities of the owners of the addresses. For example, I can easily lookup an address and see every single transaction to and from it. I can know exactly when a transaction of a certain amount was sent and I can know what addresses were involved, and I may be able to link those transaction to identities. With cash, I cannot easily know when someone last exchanged some money for something else and I cannot easily know who they did it with, short of going to the person and asking them.

As I explained above, it is still secret. Of course, yes, you are right that that person will probably not rob you if they know you have a firearm and will probably shoot them if they do steal from you. However, a lot of fiat is also stolen through digital means, such as credit card fraud. That stuff is still pretty damn hard to trace, more so than bitcoin because those transactions are not public, and there is no identifier for where the money is going to.

When I hand over my fiat, it is far from secret because I am there with my firearm and will blast on the fool who tries to rob me.  That's the difference, and that's why thieves like bitcoin....they can steal without the risk of repercussion or prosecution.

And, if any mischief's afoot, the addresses get nailed and go to JAIL!
Mixers, exchanges, BTC casinos, localbitcoin, etc., etc.? Shit ain't real, bro! Shit jus' drop 'fo mah bombass blockchain skillz!
And since no one stuffs cash into the intertubes, cash transactions, by their very nature, happen face-to-face. Establishing identity is not an issue.
Bitcoin? not so much.

fiat actually has quite the advantage over Bitcoin in fast, secret, and shady dealings. Once you hand over cash, the transaction is confirmed and done. No need to wait. Much much faster than waiting 10 minutes for a confirmation. It is quite secret to hand over cash. There is virtually no way to track cash transactions. Bitcoin, every single transaction is publicly available, and anyone can see that a transaction between two addresses occurred. With fiat, you would never know that any such transaction happened with cash.

All I'm saying is that once they do it once, they should be vetted out somehow.  I mean, if we wanted to catch this guy and show him our baseball bat, where would we find him?  Hiding behind a bitcointalk account of course!....That's their protection.

The impression is that bitcoin is used to engage in illegal, immoral, or otherwise "dark market activities."  There is not much real world advantage to using bitcoin over fiat other than engaging in fast, secret, or otherwise "shady dealings."  Governments could remedy the shady transactions by issuing their own cryptocurrency to allow for the exchange of digital goods and to allow for smart contract capabilities among the digitized public.  And, I believe that will be the direction the technology will take.

You're looking at things all wrong and are pretending like there isn't scammers/criminals on every major forum involving transactions/services/exchanges. Bitcoin is not a "fad", and it is not strictly a medium for criminals. Most of the USD a few years back had cocaine residue on them, does that not make everyone who touches them "marked criminals"? It sounds like you had an unfortunate experience and that happens, but you need to formulate a claim and support it with evidence in the proper section.

How do you know that that person will run with the money? You don't know until it happens. There is risk in everything, some people are stupid enough to take the risk and invest in that, other people are not. There is also a thing called the trust system and scam accusations. Use those and get scammers marked with red trust so people don't buy into whatever they are doing.

I agree with you on your point.  However, I do believe that developers accounts which have shown themselves to be thieves should be vetted in some way.  For example, accounts such as this https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-mercurial-mci-linking-crypto-currencies-1158117 which offer crowdfunds then run with a great deal of peoples money, should not be allowed to keep coming back to do it again.  In fact, I can see somebody getting hurt really bad soon.  What will that do for the movement?

in italy you can gamble with money only in AAMS authorized sites.
Maybe you can't bet one day in btc, or a site if offer the possibilities to pay with fiat money will be considered outlaw, and everyone will accept a bet by their will make an irregular bet.
But actually there is no any law, people can bet but you can't never open a place to accept this bet.
The point of the topic is against criminals (like who sell stoled account) and scammer (like who tries every time to ask for a loan and go away, or post stupid cloud mining site/ponzi), maybe a more control by the user with experience can help newbies to avoid get scammed or robbed.

Are you sure about that, that a majority of cryptocurrency users are thieves? Where is your proof?

And how would a centralized currency be any better than fiat? Why would a government go with a their own crypto when they can just use current fiat paper money? With fiat, nothing is public, so the government can do whatever corrupt stuff that they do and embezzle money while with an actual cryptocurrency, they would need to clean their act up.

It IS NOT illegal to gamble online in the US; however, it IS illegal for banks to transact with known gambling sites in the US.

True...True!  However, when the majority of crypto-currency users are thieves, then what does one do with the bitcoin they are holding?  Bitcoin is pretty much a thing of the past, and another government insured, re-centralized, state regulated digital currency needs to take its place if bitcoin cannot govern itself.

yes remain in topic, for a specific problem open a topic, also is better for other user contribute to the cause.
In this topic a few person can have an interest in this situation... open a topic in scam accusation, is much better.

Guess I will open up a scam accusation if no one else does once I gather some data for it.

edit:
Here is the thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/diggitio-scam-accusation-1205470

It would be great if people could help get some info on these guys to include in the thread. Then have some people on DT to neg them.

tldr:
Op tries moneypot, discovers game is rigged after losing $25
OP not happy

OP tries Diggit.io, loses $12 when admin goes awol
OP not happy

OP decides 2+2=5 and decides it's all BITCOINTALK'S FAULT



Sympathy for your loss of ~$37, but isn't the reaction slightly ott?

---

Nobody has bothered to do this with Diggit.io, the main reason for OP's wrath, which is showing all the signs of being abandoned by its admin (and suffering major withdrawal problems) Cryptofuture (quite apt name, seeing as he appears to have been thinking ahead)  https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/cryptofuture-165520
and accomplice oldmate (another apt name for Diggit #1 Investor) https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/oldmate-401759
who apparently impressed one of our Hero members enough to inspire
"This person deserve my complete trust"
If you read the thread there's a few Heros who don't really look very heroic, in hindsight....
Funny world the gambling scene, lending in troll boxes; Satoshi would be proud.

Anyway, I have left negative for the two of them so far, only mine won't make much difference but should be done by DT member really.
If they have run off with the amounts talked about, they won't be selling the accounts or using them again but still, we got to show we care, don't we?

something can be illegal in your country and not in mine...
for example weed....
other thins can be tollerated in one's but illegal in another... for example the alcohol ...
I think that a "ponzi" section need to be stopped!
"investor-based games" has get a lot of big scam sites....

Try to open Your sites under italian IP, You will find new things for Your mind.

TFW you realize the people running these forums act like criminals.

Well fortunately I dont live in the USA, and in the EU its not a problem. Gambling is not illegal in the US. online gambline is. And it wont be for long.

In certain countries (e.g. US) it is illegal to gamble online.

But that begs the question as to whose laws are we going to follow?

Since when did gambling become a criminal activity?

I think the forum can do more to combat fraud, but @ what cost? funds and who's time? users should always be wary, and can do more too, to protect themselves.

Known scam accounts should for example have their pm's disabled...and ability to create new threads taken away.

I doubt that it is the forums job to babysit you while you try to conduct trades with random strangers that are hidden under a pseudonym or while you invest/use/install random coins that end up being a pump and dump/virus/etc. If you get scammed online I could say that in most cases it is your own fault. I've been here for longer than 2 years and I have never had this problem. The forum's policy is what it is and it is okay for now.

Gambling is okay. 'Digital goods' != warez and stolen gift cards. Even if selling accounts was against the rules, there's no way to properly enforce that (e.g. trades via PM).

Nobody is ignoring it, in fact everybody here who has been here before you has been consistently warning about scammers and ponzi schemes since Bitcoin became more known and advertised to the public. No, people like you need to stop coming in here and trying to run the show, many people here are free market advocates regardless of political affiliation and care a great deal about freedom of speech and expression.

So in English that means regardless of your personal feelings on the matter no we shouldn't go around rabidly banning and stamping down on what people are posting up, we can't prevent stupid people from throwing their money away to begin with because they're stupid, they'll ignore any advice given, so for fucks sake like I've said to so many people before you keep your arrogant and protectionist attitude to yourself.

Arguably, a Bitcoin discussion forum could do without gambling, ponzi promotion, selling of warez and stolen gift cards, hacked/farmed bitcointalk accounts, etc., etc.
Just spitballing here...

It's a shame to see people ranting about these continuous scamming that happens in this forum yet they ignore the forum section dedicated to this kind of problem.

They take it as a big problem but yet they can't do their least job of contributing in busting these scammers by filling a repost in the scam accusation section.  

This topic is about a request that the forum moderates scam, not a scam accusation, so it belongs here. The Diggit.io is just an example.

And scam accusations are opened only after the scam happened, so at best they are damage control. And it is far from being the most visited section in the forum.

It's not like the forum is supporting these scammers. Peoples action in this forum is not moderated so the forum can't really do anything about it. Other than those people from the DT warning others of a certain scammer with their left feedbacks, there is no other way this scammers could be stopped.

It's all in our hands on how we can handle how this scammers will get to us  You could just use the ignore button and just don't lay your eyes on that scammer. That's the best thing we can do to stop them from their doing. Let's stop being naive first and less they'll realize we are not dumb enough to let them take our money.

It's not the forum's fault if the members here scam or commit crime but I do agree that by not banning them it can cause furthuer harm to the reputation of the forum and members as well. There have been many users who have left this forum due to this reason as everyday a new scam comes out and people are more dishonest than trusted here. The other forum I'm a part of has banned all proven scammers and hence users are more trusted there.

We could stop supporting crime, and I think that the mods kind of do that. I report posts of people selling illegal goods like stolen/hacked credit cards and paypal accounts and usually the thread disappears, probably to the trash can.

The problem is moderating scams. Some sites seem scammy, but aren't. Other sites might seem legit, but are actually scams. You don't know whether a site is actually a scam until it scams. Investigating scams also takes a long time. People (e.g. quickseller) spend a lot of time investigating people and sites to determine whether they are scammers or alts of scammers. If it were part of the moderator's job to do this, they wouldn't have enough time to actually do their job of moderating and cleaning up the forum.

Additionally, the threads that scammers create, and the threads for their scams, should be kept for reference and proof of the scam. They of course should be kept publicly so people can view them. However, this of course exposes more potential victims to the scams. Which is why we have the trust system. Those scammers are immediately tagged with -ve trust which becomes quite obvious and then their sites and the people themselves are no longer trusted. The scam accusation threads are also referenced in those red trusts and those also describe and prove that a scam happened. The proof itself typically also comes from the scammer's threads.

Stop feeding them and they will go away.

ITT: Guy suggests bitcointalk should not support known criminals, names a [presumably, have no idea] criminal operation as an example.
Responses range from camwhore pimping her site to "you're too stupid to use bitcoin."
Bonus: unholycactus points out that "People also use cash or credit fraud to commit crimes."

Not a single "could we stop supporting crime? Any ideas on how to go about doing it?"

Bitcoin is meant to create economic freedom. If you aren't responsible enough to protect yourself from scams, you should avoid using it.
As for the label people give to Bitcoin users, it doesn't matter.

People also use cash or credit fraud to commit crimes.

There is absolute no protection against anything related to crypto to not be a scam or a hoax.
Its like your wallet falling out of your pocket on the street, you should consider yourself lucky if one actually returns the wallet with the money in it.
But i promise you 98% of them take the money and throw away the emptied wallet.

Coldblooded, calm down buddy 
Many users had made an investment or participated in ponzi/scam sites and got robbed without speaking about the cloudmining ones.
The key to avoid being scammed is to learn about the company & see the experience of users with it and ofc report it with a solid proofs when it turns scam! 

People need check local law for avoid problems, for sure.

This is another good point. Apart from obvious and clear scams, there are situations like this ^.
And this is global forum, how we could enforce every local law on all users and try to keep all this in order? There is simply no way.

How do You put people to be "criminals"?
For example -
the " free bitcoin webcam chat www.VKcams.com "
is 100% illegal in some countries like Kazakstan, China (Manland), Afganistan, Saudi Arabia...

I'm proud to be criminal, in that case.

looks like you just got scammed or something, but bitcointalk doesnt support scammers nor criminals
you can post on scam accusation if you feel youre getting scammed or got scammed, and if
youre thinking about arresting the scammers well that wont happen because bitcoin is a free currency
its not being controlled  by the government so if you get scammed government laws doesnt apply in bitcoin.

thats my understanding if you get scammed.

To Op, bitcointalk is not Police or investigation squad created to fight crime and scammers. It is up to you to decide whether said service or person is legit enough for you to trust it. If you feel someone is a scammer just create scam accusation against said individual.

This site has 544,647 members. it can't possibly ensure that every one of them is not a scammer.

I guess this advice is too late for you:

true.

You can make a post on Scam Accusations if you feel someone is scamming or wrongdoing in the forums.

THIS FORUM SHOULD STOP ALLOWING CRIMINALS AND SCAMMERS TO USE THIS AS A WAY TO MAKE THEIR RIP OFF THEIVING CRIMINAL OPERATIONS APPEAR MORE LEGIT  (example:  Diggit.io uses this as the "support contact" for their site which is a criminal operation that steals your deposits and doesn't let you withdraw and contacting anyone on this worthless forum just leads to a bunch of nerds responding and no response from any actual support person who operates diggit).

Your site relies on bitcoin existing, if bitcoin didn't exist this site wouldn't exist.

By facilitating bitcoin criminals and bitcoin scammers and scam sites, you are shooting yourself in the foot because eventually,  as more people find and use bitcoin, they will realize it's nothing but a medium for criminals and scam artists to rob people.   So you are just accelerating the inevitable,   the liquidation of bitcoin as a whole, and the end of this whole ridiculous crytpo fad.

And you are building animosity among the community of bitcoin users by facilitating and marking yourselves as criminals and scammers,  thus destroying your own legitimacy.

Stupid any way you look at it.