Stumbled over the amazing TAT.VIRTUALMINE on BitFunder

tinus42

hero member

Activity: 784

Merit: 501

Quote from: eltopo on July 15, 2013, 10:02:12 AM

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on July 15, 2013, 08:33:07 AM

With difficulty violently rising the way it has been, there are only three reasons you might consider purchasing at the current market rate and expecting a profit:

1. If you think that the share price will stay high enough to sell at a profit after collecting dividends for a short term. While this has been possible for various timeframes in the life of TAT.VM, this is very risky speculation.
2. If you think that difficulty will stop rising at some point in the next few weeks/months. This is not the forecast, nor the consensus of the community.
3. If you think that difficulty will decrease, or continue to decrease sometime in the next year or so. This is rather unlikely, but I suppose there are some scenarios where something like this is possible, like bitcoin permanently forking, or become much less popular, etc.

In short, buying TAT.VM in the current environment, and under the current forecast, effectively means you are either betting against the difficulty rate, or speculating that the share price will hold longer than the yield % warrants.

I really respect you for explaining this openly. But the TL;DR of this is simply: You don't believe yourself that your asset will be profitable for your investors. Fun part is, investors keep buying anyway Cheesy

Conclusion: Maybe only interesting for the megarich investors who want to hedge all possibilities. Everyone else stay away. Roll Eyes

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: Naruby on July 15, 2013, 11:28:58 AM

5. You bought Btc at a higher price that today market price. Instead of keeping them in cold storage , here there deliver 0 dividend, for the day the price is right to sell them you buy TAT.VM or other mining share.
Not ever trade is long term.

All good if you can guarantee that when the time comes to sell those shares back for BTC, you can get more from the sale + dividends earned, than if you had just kept your BTC sitting still.

Naruby

newbie

Activity: 25

Merit: 0

Quote from: twentyseventy on July 15, 2013, 09:44:30 AM

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on July 15, 2013, 08:33:07 AM

With difficulty violently rising the way it has been, there are only three reasons you might consider purchasing at the current market rate and expecting a profit:

1. If you think that the share price will stay high enough to sell at a profit after collecting dividends for a short term. While this has been possible for various timeframes in the life of TAT.VM, this is very risky speculation.
2. If you think that difficulty will stop rising at some point in the next few weeks/months. This is not the forecast, nor the consensus of the community.
3. If you think that difficulty will decrease, or continue to decrease sometime in the next year or so. This is rather unlikely, but I suppose there are some scenarios where something like this is possible, like bitcoin permanently forking, or become much less popular, etc.

In short, buying TAT.VM in the current environment, and under the current forecast, effectively means you are either betting against the difficulty rate, or speculating that the share price will hold longer than the yield % warrants.

4. You've got no idea how difficulty increases work and/or affect this investment. (I'm assuming this is the majority of the investors in this fund, as well as BFMines)

5. You bought Btc at a higher price that today market price. Instead of keeping them in cold storage , here there deliver 0 dividend, for the day the price is right to sell them you buy TAT.VM or other mining share.
Not ever trade is long term.

eltopo

full member

Activity: 230

Merit: 100

Quote from: Vbs on July 15, 2013, 10:13:57 AM

Quote from: eltopo on July 15, 2013, 10:02:12 AM

I really respect you for explaining this openly. But the TL;DR of this is simply: You don't believe yourself that your asset will be profitable for your investors. Fun part is, investors keep buying anyway Cheesy

No, the asset is solid, just not at any price. Too much and it's the same as buying a GPU today to mine bitcoins. On the other hand, even GPUs are profitable if you paid $0 for it, or have access to free power.

Yeah, of course, it always depends on the buying price. I'd take it for 0.001 too....

Kushedout

legendary

Activity: 1123

Merit: 1000

SaluS - (SLS)

Quote from: eltopo on July 15, 2013, 10:02:12 AM

I really respect you for explaining this openly. But the TL;DR of this is simply: You don't believe yourself that your asset will be profitable for your investors. Fun part is, investors keep buying anyway Cheesy

I always find TATs posts to be honest and insightful. His posts are among the few I look forward to reading on any particular security.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: eltopo on July 15, 2013, 10:02:12 AM

I really respect you for explaining this openly. But the TL;DR of this is simply: You don't believe yourself that your asset will be profitable for your investors. Fun part is, investors keep buying anyway Cheesy

No, the asset is solid, just not at any price. Too much and it's the same as buying a GPU today to mine bitcoins. On the other hand, even GPUs are profitable if you paid $0 for it, or have access to free power.

eltopo

full member

Activity: 230

Merit: 100

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on July 15, 2013, 08:33:07 AM

With difficulty violently rising the way it has been, there are only three reasons you might consider purchasing at the current market rate and expecting a profit:

1. If you think that the share price will stay high enough to sell at a profit after collecting dividends for a short term. While this has been possible for various timeframes in the life of TAT.VM, this is very risky speculation.
2. If you think that difficulty will stop rising at some point in the next few weeks/months. This is not the forecast, nor the consensus of the community.
3. If you think that difficulty will decrease, or continue to decrease sometime in the next year or so. This is rather unlikely, but I suppose there are some scenarios where something like this is possible, like bitcoin permanently forking, or become much less popular, etc.

In short, buying TAT.VM in the current environment, and under the current forecast, effectively means you are either betting against the difficulty rate, or speculating that the share price will hold longer than the yield % warrants.

I really respect you for explaining this openly. But the TL;DR of this is simply: You don't believe yourself that your asset will be profitable for your investors. Fun part is, investors keep buying anyway Cheesy

twentyseventy

legendary

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on July 15, 2013, 08:33:07 AM

With difficulty violently rising the way it has been, there are only three reasons you might consider purchasing at the current market rate and expecting a profit:

1. If you think that the share price will stay high enough to sell at a profit after collecting dividends for a short term. While this has been possible for various timeframes in the life of TAT.VM, this is very risky speculation.
2. If you think that difficulty will stop rising at some point in the next few weeks/months. This is not the forecast, nor the consensus of the community.
3. If you think that difficulty will decrease, or continue to decrease sometime in the next year or so. This is rather unlikely, but I suppose there are some scenarios where something like this is possible, like bitcoin permanently forking, or become much less popular, etc.

In short, buying TAT.VM in the current environment, and under the current forecast, effectively means you are either betting against the difficulty rate, or speculating that the share price will hold longer than the yield % warrants.

4. You've got no idea how difficulty increases work and/or affect this investment. (I'm assuming this is the majority of the investors in this fund, as well as BFMines)

Birdy

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: ThickAsThieves on July 15, 2013, 08:33:07 AM

2. If you think that difficulty will stop rising at some point in the next few weeks/months. This is not the forecast, nor the consensus of the community.
3. If you think that difficulty will decrease, or continue to decrease sometime in the next year or so. This is rather unlikely, but I suppose there are some scenarios where something like this is possible, like bitcoin permanently forking, or become much less popular, etc.

Especially 3 would most likely also lead to a lower Bitcoin price, so you are unlikely to win even if that happens.

ThickAsThieves

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

With difficulty violently rising the way it has been, there are only three reasons you might consider purchasing at the current market rate and expecting a profit:

1. If you think that the share price will stay high enough to sell at a profit after collecting dividends for a short term. While this has been possible for various timeframes in the life of TAT.VM, this is very risky speculation.
2. If you think that difficulty will stop rising at some point in the next few weeks/months. This is not the forecast, nor the consensus of the community.
3. If you think that difficulty will decrease, or continue to decrease sometime in the next year or so. This is rather unlikely, but I suppose there are some scenarios where something like this is possible, like bitcoin permanently forking, or become much less popular, etc.

In short, buying TAT.VM in the current environment, and under the current forecast, effectively means you are either betting against the difficulty rate, or speculating that the share price will hold longer than the yield % warrants.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: JoseRolles on July 15, 2013, 07:48:55 AM

I calculated (figuring difficulty) that it was worth getting the several months of good dividends at the price I bought the shares at. Honestly, I think we have several good months left on this. You can do the math yourself for the current price (BTC0.00365, I think)...

According to profile on bitfunder...

D is the current difficulty
H is your hash rate in Mhash/s = 1 MH
B is the current block reward in BTC = 25 btc
(H*B/D) * (60*60*24 * 65535 * 10^6 / 2^48)

(1*25/26162875.68257) * (60*60*24 * 65535 * 10000000 / 281474976710656)

When diff rises 20%, you'll not only get divs of (1*25/(26162875.68257*1.2)) * (60*60*24 * 65535 * 10^6 / 2^48) = ฿0.00001602, but the price per share will devalue as much. So, you lose two times: on the dividends and on the share price.

At the current share price it would be 192 days for break even on dividends, considering no difficulty increases. Realistically it won't break even at the current share price. Personally, I wouldn't buy at any higher than ฿0.001.

Like coco23 suggested, you can use a profits calculator with adjustments for difficulty, http://www.coinish.com/calc/# (press the Expert button).

JoseRolles

newbie

Activity: 23

Merit: 0

I calculated (figuring difficulty) that it was worth getting the several months of good dividends at the price I bought the shares at. Honestly, I think we have several good months left on this. You can do the math yourself for the current price (BTC0.00365, I think)...

According to profile on bitfunder...

D is the current difficulty
H is your hash rate in Mhash/s = 1 MH
B is the current block reward in BTC = 25 btc
(H*B/D) * (60*60*24 * 65535 * 10^6 / 2^48)

(1*25/26162875.68257) * (60*60*24 * 65535 * 10000000 / 281474976710656)

twentyseventy

legendary

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Ac3Upz on July 15, 2013, 06:04:07 AM

Quote from: JoseRolles on July 15, 2013, 05:39:41 AM

Even as difficulty increases, at it's current price (BTC0.00369/share)

Than you will love DMS.MINING even more:
0.015 for 5 MH/s ~ 0.003/share, that is 0,64% DAILY dividend (233% per year if difficulty doesn't increase).
https://btct.co/security/DMS.MINING

Yeah, where's furuknap? He always likes to compare mining bonds and pretend that difficulty won't increase...

Ac3Upz

newbie

Activity: 24

Merit: 0

Quote from: JoseRolles on July 15, 2013, 05:39:41 AM

Even as difficulty increases, at it's current price (BTC0.00369/share)

Than you will love DMS.MINING even more:
0.015 for 5 MH/s ~ 0.003/share, that is 0,64% DAILY dividend (233% per year if difficulty doesn't increase).
https://btct.co/security/DMS.MINING

alphabet

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

This is a pretty thinly veiled attempt at pumping up the price of a stock which completely ignores the fact that the asset has lost just under half its value in the short time it has been around.

Vbs

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: JoseRolles on July 15, 2013, 05:39:41 AM

This thing pays daily, DAILY!

Even as difficulty increases, at it's current price (BTC0.00369/share) with the current DAILY dividend payment (BTC0.00001922/share), that's over 0.5% return EACH DAY! %15 return EACH MONTH! and somewhere around 100% return for the year (granted the difficulty doesn't increase too much)... still it's a good buy now!

I just put in over 40 BTC into this and should see somewhere around BTC0.25 return for each of the next few days.

There is still a good chunk at a reasonable low price, below the initial IPO, but if you look at the dividends page, you see the proof of how is undervalued compared to other investments!

https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE

Difficulty is increasing ~20% every ~10 days. Wink

coco23

hero member

Activity: 1974

Merit: 856

Don't get too excited and use a calculator where you can include future difficulty adjustments (e.g. http://www.coinish.com/calc/#)

Or do some research here in the board (look for PMB), there are plenty of threads about it. The price is on that (low? or too high?) level for a reason.

JoseRolles

newbie

Activity: 23

Merit: 0

This thing pays daily, DAILY!

Even as difficulty increases, at it's current price (BTC0.00369/share) with the current DAILY dividend payment (BTC0.00001922/share), that's over 0.5% return EACH DAY! %15 return EACH MONTH! and somewhere around 100% return for the year (granted the difficulty doesn't increase too much)... still it's a good buy now!

I just put in over 40 BTC into this and should see somewhere around BTC0.25 return for each of the next few days.

There is still a good chunk at a reasonable low price, below the initial IPO, but if you look at the dividends page, you see the proof of how is undervalued compared to other investments!

https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE

Topic: Stumbled over the amazing TAT.VIRTUALMINE on BitFunder (Read 1304 times)