Topic: Swallowing a whale which becomes a frog when swallowed (Read 1315 times)

[sidenote] sorry for the 'ninja edit' , it was not intentional, you know, I just begun with some misspelling and found myself adding a lot of text. [/sidenote].

Your total perception of the bitcoin thing is a huge false, and I can't help with it, you just need some more papers and stuff to read , other than Satoshi Bible or the source code. And Your perception of my project is worst:
Every business has and should have a 'causal view' of its existence. Modern management sciences have approached this many years ago and it is categorized as "strategic management " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_management

It is very normal (being newbie in a forum or not, being a third world citizen or not) for anybody who wants to start a business, to begin with the most long term causes and initiatives, and to present a clear picture of the necessity and the feasibility of the core business. You are obviously unfamiliar with this as I can see but it is not about you and me it is about the theory and the practice of management, we both should follow.

For instance,  when you want to open a restaurant somewhere you should come with some justifiable idea about people needing high quality food and respect in their affordable range and the potentials and abilities you got to fulfill this needs.
you may add some SWOT analysis about Strengths and Weaknesses and Opportunities and Threats involved and you are done! You have a strategic document to initiate discussions with potential investors!
It is how every business is to be established, a good stable and progressive business I mean.

In my case, I have two very strong initiatives:
1- Bitcoin needs balanced distribution of hashing power (a technical issue you obviously have not a clue about)
2- My country needs high tech and development (a socioeconomic issue you don't care about)

And I have proved that it is feasible to take risk and participate:
1-ASIC for SHA256 is not inherently out of reach. It is simple (the core logic is simple) and can be customized easily with a moderate investment.
2-My country's electricity fees are unbeatable and can support our business to bear the burden of initial technological disadvantages with more patience.

None of my these 4 arguments have been challenged by you (hard to challenge simple facts nah?) you just keep talking about Quixotism  and my style as a strategic thinker and business developer. Are you more comfortable with  someone looking for a cheap yet profitable miner with low noise to install it in her basement? if yes, why are you hanging here at all? obviously It is a strategic discussion thread, about strategic problems of bitcoin and my country and strategic opportunities involved. What are you doing here?

By the way, being Don Quixote is not bad, history needs people who have dreams and got enough 'fortitude' to follow them specially when this dreams are of descent and humanitarian nature like Quixote's.


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About FPGA development kit: not necessary, .. circuit design of SHA256 is not a bottleneck, ASIC Boost has pushed it to the edge lately and with regards to the feasibility issues I can assure you it is absolutely possible for average engineers to design an ASCI chip. Yet  we have more preliminary jobs to do: the whole miner is more than just some few chips and we should fix it firstly. ASIC manufacturing goes to the next phase.
[/newly_added_text]

Okeydokey, I hope that you finished your editing and I can reply.

Side note: This forum allows unlimited editing of own posts. This doesn't mean that you can keep ninja-editing without clearly marking your edits. If you can't finish for some reason leave a note at the end that you will continue and when. At minimum ninja-edits are impolite, oftentimes they are just a symptom of a liar or a scammer. End side note.

You should have started like this from the beginning. Your goal isn't "to fix Bitcoin". Your goal is "to fix the humanity, maybe with the help of Bitcoin". You would have found many more receptive and friendly souls on this forum if you were open and honest, both with yourself and with the readers.

While I have nothing against your manifesto, I think it will not be well received. The majority of the current Bitcoin users/investors/promoters are not afraid that a whale could turn to a frog. They joined the project not because they could get "more". They joined because the project guaranteed that the other will get "less". They will just happy with "a frog" provided that the other get smaller frogs or other smaller animals.

Anyway, I'm mentally filling your case under "Don Quixote of La Mancha" together with Bicknellski and his "Wasp Project Collective" (and some others). It will be the easiest to monitor your progress on the whole manifesto by focusing on item 6, "mastering the technology". Lets see if you actually have fortitude to get an FPGA development kit to test yourself and your ideas.
 

2112,
Regarding your latest question about my incentives for the 'propaganda'

Obviously I'm an Entrepreneur and activist with ideas about having my people and country involved in cryptocurrency business because I do believe it is a relief for both sides. Bitcoin needs balanced and distributed power and my country needs progress and development to avoid violence.

We ordinary people are like you: we make love, we cry we die. our children deserve better than we have right now, like yours. Bitcoin and cryptocurrency is an opportunity for all of us to make the world a better place.

I want to do this not by just milking my country's energy resources in the interest of myself or my friends. I have an idea and I have strong reasons that this idea works:

1- We have good resources of energy here and electricity is extremely  inexpensive.

2- One good news about SHA256 ASIC is its simplicity. with a moderate (but confident and aggressive) investment we can keep our business almost up to date and competitive when combined with cheap electricity.

3-All we need is know-how plus (about say 2-3 million dollars) investment plus good business partners in technology field.

4-We can keep such a business running in a very competitive state and profitable. We can use our hash power to keep bitcoin safe and strong.

5- We will use our business as a focal point for propagating science and technology in the region. We will make our business an example in the region , an icon of descent development and science ( a new, resurrected science, this time born to be democratic, humanitarian to be  a relief).

6- We should start by designing and mastering technology from the very beginning even with first few thousand bucks of investment. Every thing as always is about the start.

7- I am working hard on the theoretic aspects and attracting cooperations and sympathies about a DAO like institution to raise funds for my project.

8- We need crowd funding to have both sides' (my people and Bitcoin community) interests fulfilled, otherwise we have to go through endless negotiations with greedy dangerous people who want everything (the whale) just for themselves  to swallow.

2112,
I do not quote your latest post, because it seems to be unnecessary and I have edited my last post, adding a lot of material:
Why are you so out of logic?
You are talking too much and thinking a little and you are arrogant too!

1- Proof of work is just about keeping bitcoin supply low and controlled. fairness is not a matter of concern, it is economics!

2- ASIC is historically known to be a crack against cryptography. I clearly reminded you of the philosophy behind Etherium and Litecoin ...

The end: you can learn a lot from my previous post. Don't be trapped by your first position, make progress!

I understand that it may look personal to you. The fact is that you aren't saying anything new, you are just another person who finally confronted his ideal of Bitcoin with reality of Bitcoin and it isn't happy with what he sees. You are however unique with your ability to quite clearly state objection and are doing the objecting with enchanting poetic slant that is new.

Baloney. Proof-of-work is just an approximation of "fair" initial distribution of bitcoins, for some definition of "fair" acceptable to some people. Your use of "crack" is just your anger showing up, nobody is trying to crack any ciphers in any of the PoW crypto coins. It is just a way to run a decentralized lottery, they more you hash the more tickets you buy in the lottery that distributes the coins.

There aren't any ASIC monopolies. There is some sort of oligopoly built by those who actually understand the logic design and semiconductor manufacturing. They fair and square outcompeted the much less efficient and more idealistic competitors who were against borrowing/financing or did it less efficiently. The nearest to the monopoly in the Bitcoin milieu is the Core Development team but it is slowly crumbling.  
 
Well, I give you A grade for this, you already have advantage over many fellow miners who are completely befuddled by that Systeme International d'unites.

Yeah, I don't want to violate your privacy. But can you speak in some more general ways that would still convey your predicament? You claim that there are many native engineers and scientists in your region. How came you didn't avail yourself of their advice? I mean no official contract, but something informal like discussion over lunch or breakfast? There must be some acceptable Middle-Eastern way to get informal advice. In Europe, where I had most of my education, such door-opening and lips-loosening helper would be a bottle of decent alcoholic beverage (for better or for worse).

So, how come you ended up with falling deeply for the propaganda? And doing that despite your education? Can you describe that in some non-specific (maybe even poetic) way, without doxing yourself or your school?

Edit: Pasting the ninja-edit for posterity:

You are making every thing personal and it is off topic. but let's play your game:

1- Mining is not about efficiency! Who told you that? Mining is just a mechanism to avoid inflation by limiting the supply of bitcoin. It is very important to understand that the whole mining thing is an artificial, unnecessary waste of computing power, do you believe it? from a pure programming point of view you don't need more than a few hash calculations to keep blockchain working exactly the same it is working now just you (theoretically) can have tens of blocks per second and a inflammatory coin issuance situation. It is all of the purpose behind 'proof of work' . The protocol  is designed to act against efficiency by adjusting difficulty, simple and basic!
As I have mentioned above the whole ASIC thing is a crack a kind of cheating and bitcoin is struggling with it. The popularity of Etherium and Litecoin and others, the main argument they have, is about their supposed immunity against this crack (their proof of work being more memory bound and computation intensive to be economically feasible enough to be ruined by ASIC designers and manufacturers, comparing to simple double SHA256 algorithm).

And it is ruining not only the Bitcoin but the environment as well, you love numbers? check these:
We got some 4.55 XHS total hashing power at the time of this writing. Let's estimate the average power consumption of miners to be  0.5 W/GH (very optimistic)
using my high school level knowledge: 4.55*10^18 * 0.5 / 10^9 = 2.28 * 10^9 W = 2280 MW
with current technology you need 378 kg coal to be consumed (producing CO2 and releasing it to the atmosphere) for each MW/h of electricity. It means we burn 862 tons of coal each hour for what? absolutely nothing! The dramatic increase in the difficulty and the hash rate, means nothing other than an invasion against the nature and wasting valuable resources. ASIC does not make it more efficient, it just escalates it.

Satoshi's white paper or Bitcoin source code are good stuff but not enough ... See? you come here, claiming to be an expert but you do not understand the core idea behind the most basic concept of bitcoin: proof of work, and your reference is the White Paper and the Source Code. Look at you! You are arguing with me against another most basic concept: decentralized nature of Bitcoin, denying (and/or totally not understanding) the only accountable  threat to decentralization: ASIC monopolies.
 

2- I didn't make any claim about a degree in some science or tech field. It is my privacy and have rights not to disclose my education level, but in the Middle East we have a lot of well educated brilliant engineers and scientists. It is 2016 and education is not an obstacle. Actually , because of social and political conflicts, here we have much more incentives to be armed with advanced technology (as a human being living in the danger zone), engineers here have nothing other than their expertise and they take care about it much more than what one may expect.

Thanks for responding. This is 100% on-topic because everyone here is interested in who would invest in mining and what is their motivation.

So I gather that the feel on the Middle-East is that Chinese are monopolizing mining. My take is that Chinese were amongst the few who really understood that mining is about efficiency and real technical advantage gained by investing in efficient semiconductor implementations.

No need to read any economic papers: to understand Bitcoin concepts and mining it is sufficient to read Satoshi's paper and browse the source code. Everything else is just a commentary or propaganda. Proof-of-work is a technical equivalent of might-makes-right. What else is to say? Blame yourself for signing into a project that you didn't understand.

I guess I overestimated your educational background. It seems to be purely words-based, no sign of understanding numbers. Do you even understand the difference between MW and mW? I still wish I could somehow learn what kind of school one has to graduate from to have such superficial (but nicely-worded) outlook on Bitcoin as you've exhibited in your posts. From the very little I know about Middle-Eastern technical schools the most students there are purchasing grades either directly or by hiring tutors and consultants.

God! again? another legendary?!

First of all as a 'legendary' you shouldn't post off-topic!

Bitcoin is not about 'reality', it is about 'change', it is a 'paradigm shift', and yes it is sort of a religion, and I'm not anti-Chinese I just have not enough trust to their communist party not 'socializing' mining firms and monopolizing some 2/3 of total hash power of the network, ruining up to 8 billion dollars of people's assets and a promising future for humanity.

About economics: come on! Have you ever been studying an economic paper just for 1 continuous hour? Most of the people are used to messing with economics and other branches of science by their media-driven common sense .

All right, I'm so fascinated about this poster that I can't pass this opportunity.

It is clearly somebody reasonably well educated but also somebody completely dissociated from reality. Is it drugs? Is it education in some closed private school? What could that be? I see more than a smidgen of anti-Chinese sentiment. Is it some sort of religious fervor?

The wikipedia reference points to somebody with extensive humanities education but without comprehending mostly basic numeracy and economy one would expect from a bazaar trader.

I have to apologize too. I overreacted. But really, guys here do not pay a shit to newcommers. Bad attitude!
But it is about mining and I am in the right forum. I have plans to make money but my plans are fair and transparent and are green in terms of enhancing the decentralized nature of bitcoin. But I am under attack by bullies and I'm not alone: every single miner is aware of the threat, ASIC is basically a crack it is historically known to be a crack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custom_hardware_attack We have to do something and it can't be a patch to the algorithm it should be done in an organized way supported by the Blockchain technology itself. You people (being legendary, or elder fellows or so) have to lead us, encourage us. Bitcoin is beautiful. We need it to make life better for ourselves and our children. We have to do more about this ASIC shit.
For the moment I am proposing a streamlined public investment for making this technology public domain in a much higher level than what it really is. Meanwhile we should not be fooled by companies like Bitmain, people, ordinary people like you and me, have not access to this shit. This is not access to the technology at all, their "directly available to public' thing is just a sales discourse and a sophisticated shield they have devised to protect themselves against decentralization incentives among the community. They want to co-exist with their host until foolishly accomplishing their mission: destroying it. Got it? Destroying their host! Capitalism is self-destructive, not my innovative discovery but ... think about it ... making a machine to crack a business to take over that business ... fuck!

Simple: Corporates seeking monopoly in bitcoin mining (and mining is the core and heart of the whole bitcoin thing] are trying to swallow it but eventually if their strategy succeeds they will found Bitcoin dead or a very small worthless business

Bitmain repeatedly announces its latest x(nm) products to be sold directly in the public domain. It claims to be a 'decentralization friendly' company. Nosense! They do not provide technology to the public they just sell their overpriced products to us.

Of curse it is! It manages a very impressive share of the total hash power(22%), look: https://blockchain.info/pools and this is not just 'one thing' it is the whole thing, SHA256 ASIC technology is about everything in bitcoin terminology


I'm not against money, I want people to have control over its supply, we all want, don't you?  SHA256 is under attack by this ASIC chips, it is about attacking bitcoin. Historically it is known to be an attack look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custom_hardware_attack
Scrypt won't save us. The inertia of the Blockchain don't leave any chance for hard/soft forks  against this attack. My proposal implies a social campaign to keep things in control. We have to streamline our capitals/knowledge/efforts to take care of the fragile balance between giants and the crowd.

My apologies if you got your feelings hurt. I would suggest that you don't read too much into the "Legendary" or "Hero" tags. Best that I can tell, they are accrue primarily as a result of time and post count.

As for your desires, if you have zero interest in the "dirty money" or "money intensive" aspect of Bitcoin, then you might not really enjoy the various sub-catagories under Mining (e.g. Hardware and Mining Speculation). I say that since the acronym ROI is present in many of the threads, and well that's about money and "Return On Investment".

For your grander socio-economic aspirations regarding Bitcoin, I can't give you any good suggestions of what forums you would find work best for you. I don't expect them to be under the general category of "Mining", but I will freely admit that I don't visit all that many sub-forums. Despite the "Legendary" tag, I don't claim to be overly knowledgeable about many aspects of Bitcoin, as you might.

Best of luck. 

Just for transparency clarification. What exactly do you mean by "swallowing a whale which becomes a frog when swallowed"?

What is the "official policy" of giving their products out to the public?

You see Bitmain as a monopoly? Within a very specific niche of hardware that was built for one thing? Im so lost...

Call me dumb, but after reading this I'm still not sure exactly what you're trying to get across. Isn't bitcoin in essence "money intensive"? A DAO like institution could raise millions of dollars with a purely nonprofit philosophy to back the community oriented hardware development, Feasible? Sure. OR a company like Bitmain comes around, Does it all themselves and releases a product to those willing to purchase.

All we can hope for is a total collapse of the big ASIC mining farms,either they just breakdown from wear & tear or it becomes too expensive for them to operate.

I really don't see BTC going full mainstream with it being mined by just a few entities 

I've already started using & mining other coins 

God, You are a 'legendary' and I have to explain everything to you? What's the point? biting newcomers is a tradition here? Wikipedia has rules about it, bitcointalk should adopt a few too, I suppose. You replied with an unpleasant tone, and yet on a topic about which such a strong consensus exists.

And where your 'obvious' reasoning is going to lead us? They invest, they risk money, then have right to ruin everything including their money?!
You legendary guys should realize definitively better than us 'nobes',  bitcoin (and this 'investments' ) can't survive a second under a monopolized mining condition, it will simply collapse, and the whale turns to become a frog. Do you really need a course about 'byzantine generals problem' and its relevance to bitcoin agenda? Note: the corrupted generals are betraying themselves as well.

Bitmain is talking about making its latest hardware available to public directly as one of its privileges, it highlights it here and there a lot, but  I think it is not enough to just sell an already milked cow 'directly' to people to get credit from the community, they should be more cooperative and open.
Why? because from a strategic point of view if any entity is going to be in the bitcoin boat, needs this credit.
With us or not with us? ASIC mining chip companies have to choose and should take care about thier choice as it is about their own holly interest and not just the reputation and some plus/minus sales statistics. Bitcoin is a boat! We are on the same boat and cheaters/careless players are just sinking themselves with others.

So what's the problem with buying the S9? Doesn't that get you three hashing boards and some stuff you'll likely need to actually run them? Don't like the price? Where has Bitmain stated that they are in the business of making Bitcoin into something that millions of folks can mine?

Bitmain sells a complete product, not just parts to suit your desires. Many companies are like that, in a variety of industries.

As with all posts that mention decentralization, what is your definition? The fact that Bitmain sells miners has zero to do with decentralization. Feel free to design, fabricate and deploy your own mining hardware. Shouldn't cost more than a few million dollars to do that. While they have obviously deployed a bunch of their own gear internally, you are free to "decentralize" as much as you can afford. They didn't take a dime from anybody to design and build the S5, S7, or S9, until they had already spent the big money to develop their respective ASIC parts. If they failed, it was all on their dime. All the risk was on them.

Yes it's a shame, but very few Bitcoin ASIC designers have chosen to sell their ASIC's on the open market, not just Bitmain.

ASIC has ruined everything and decentralized philosophy of bitcoin, struggles to survive. ASIC mining hardware manufacturers are crawling to top while (at least some of them) showing  fake sympathies about decentralization.
Recently I have been involved in a negotiation with Bitmain for having access to their bare hashing board samples for an immersed liquid cooling project of mine, witnessing how their official policy of giving their products out to public is fake. Making a technology  public domain is not just about selling off the shelf products with enough delay to take all of the advantages of being the first. People have rights to be more involved in details and have access to the chips, the pcbs, etc ....
Bitmain is the worst player because of cheating and being a hypocrite but no other ASIC mining hardware producer is honorable. They are all the same fools who do not understand the paradoxical nature of their strategy (swallowing a whale which becomes a frog when swallowed).
The main, generic problem with this dirty hardware industry is its  'money intensive'  characteristic. If it was about Google or Microsoft trying to monopolize software, no problem at all and an opportunity for devs to have fun. But it is, this hardware shit, all about the money.
I am thinking of a DAO like institution to raise millions of dollars with a pure nonprofit philosophy to back community oriented hardware development projects. Is it feasible? Have you any alternative plan?
By the way: I'm looking for bare hashing boards (at least 10 pieces) for my immerse liquid cooling project. I prefer the boards to be of the most recent technologies, any help available? Any recommendations?