Topic: Taxing is legalized robbery (Read 4274 times)

Yeah thats true, no one could tracking our transaction history nor how much tax we need to pay.

Not all country doing that imo, but I think its still better than you dont pay any tax and there is no development in our country.

I once heard about this conspiracy news, which CIA have made many secret projects. But the worst thing government did with our money is war. Yeah no country really adopt true democracy, its just the mask for them.

The only day when people will give attention to your rumors will be the day you present proof and statistics. I know that our taxes aren't used where they should be, I recently read that the CIA was funded by the government to test on people on controlling their minds. They caused so may deaths when they were in the hospital too, the government has motives the people are not aware about. I think democracy is just a hoax.

Yes they are growing our country with much smaller rate than growing their bankroll in their swizz accounts.

A lot of taxes can be avoided or completely eliminated if you are receiving payments directly in btc and not cashing it out to spend on things. In a world where services and goods could be bought easily, the only taxes we will ever pay would be service charges and nothing else, I assume. Nobody can know how much money you have in your wallet in order to know how much tax you need to pay

Obama has accumulated more debt than all presidents in history combined. Why do we even have to vote to raise the debt limit? At this point we could never pay it back anyway, so keep spending like morons.

We dont really avoid the tax even we using bitcoin. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tax_compliance  But yeah seems the tax in bitcoin still lower than anything. Have you thought about how you could go to your office or your college without those infrastructures that was built by government with your taxes? I mean, come on, atleast the government still spend your money to grow your country.

Even then, when you pay with Bitcoins the shop will have your name attached to the transaction in the blockchain. Can't the goverment ask the shop for records of that to start taxing people?

yes, the only way you can dodge taxes is by getting paid strictly in bitcoins and never exchanging them for dollars. Your plan to dodge taxes would seem much more feasible when more services start adopting bitcoin so you could directly make use of your bitcoins rather than exchanging them for dollars or any other currency. However, you must pay taxes for your bitcoins. Bitcoins are capital and if they increase, you need to pay capital increase taxes.

How are you going to dodge taxes by using Bitcoin, specifically?
When you buy Bitcoin do you really think that they don't know? of course they do, they will be suspicious that you are sending money to some weirdly located exchange, and exchanges nowadays need a lot of verifications.
Even if you used LocalBitcoins, the bank movements are there and can raise eyebrows. Anything that has to do with fiat transactions they know.
The ONLY way to securely avoid taxes is being paid under the table in Bitcoin, and NEVER cashing out. I can't think of a single way to do this. Signature campaigns pay nothing for example, you make more flipping burgers. So can't think of any other way to make the money without depending on the fiat system, showing credentials etc.

Yup you are right.
They steal our money legally by taxing us.
We can dodge taxes by using bitcoins.

and the craziest thing is that it's all declassified now due to the FOIA.  Just a few years ago you could find the info in the corners of the web, but now the actual gvt documents and records of the human experiments are out there.

Look at the death rates at the hospitals where the CIA was doing this stuff, it spikes way up while they were there, and goes back down when they leave.  And the scariest thing is they were doign these with the intent that those experimented on wouldn't have a memory of it, adn that they could be "triggered" even years down the line...

Yeah man, I have also seen the dark side of the internet where such things were revealed and things seemed pretty graphic too. Why would a government invest tons of money in programs which research on mind control experiments, how do people expect us to believe in democracy where they're just a bunch of people who want to control us?!

And we are in the midst of the "most transparent administration ever".  Yeah right, thats the biggest lie 0bummas ever told, and he's told a LOT.

Anyway, look at some of the CIA programs that have recently become declassified, mind control experiments at mental hospitals, LSD experiments in the 60's, etc.  THIS is the kind of stuff that makes taxation akin to robbery, gvt should NOT be spending your hard earned money on these things.

When we pay a part of our hard earned money, all we expect is for it to be used wisely and not wasted carelessly, that is the point stargazer is making, right? The most terrible thing is that there is no transparency, but if transparency is forced, people will then debate authority and force their funds to be used only at things,places,areas,etc which concern to them.

True, as long as the governments aren't spending money on failed projects and oppression. When I pay taxes I want to see streets and parks in good condition, reliable infrastructure and services. I don't want my money to be spent on raises for government officials and new, more luxurious government buildings. I want to see the police chasing criminals and not drunkards or kids smoking weed. That's what it's all about.

Yes, taxes should always be considered as an investment in the future for a better tomorrow, I see a lot of new infrastructure and technology at places I have been. When I first went to Delhi, India, it was nothing but a big crowded market. Now there are metros and huge buildings, great organizations and decent people. Same goes for Greece, I had an amazing vacation there before, and hearing how its a mess now breaks my heart. Taxes are important, not only for the people we live with, but for us too.

So how do you define rich, poor, and middle class?

I agree, $50 or $100 Million means you'll have a nice life and the degree to which you can spend and enjoy the "finer things" would be almost unnoticeable. In reality rich people are rich because they're smart with their money, understand business and re-invest a lot of it to create even more wealth for society. Huge net worth doesn't necessarily mean you have $50 Billion in USD in the bank. It means if you liquidate all of your assets you'd have that much. I'd argue most of it is money that is tied up in investments, so please don't think rick people simply have hoards and hoards of cash that they're just sitting on and therefore the government should steal it and "share the wealth".

Nobody is against helping the poor, but that's what charity and other voluntary programs are for. Voluntarily giving money to poor people is an act of good will, having it forcibly taken from people and given to the poor is no longer good will, it's just theft.

If you are in favor government wealth redistribution, then I'll assume you believe in Democracy. Democracy is championed as "the will of the people" due to the electoral process. If it is truly a reflection of people's will, then please explain how the people's will is any different if you remove the voting process. The people's will, in this case, to help the poor would still remain. Or do you really think we elect a group of infallible angels into government and they know better than us on where to spend our money?

Taxes are simply people's desire to tell others what they think others should do with their property (money). Please stop confusing a person's desire to be free from coercive taxation as not wanting to help the poor.

I do understand that some rich people are rich from stealing and playing the system. That's something that would also be minimized if we abolished taxes and returned to sound money!

Although there have been questions about how efficiently tax money is spent, the sentiments of his post are accurate. Taxation is necessary, giving up percentages of our wealth may not be fun, but otherwise, there would be insufficient funds for things like public utilties, as well as national defense. Volunteers in an ancap society would not be nearly a large enough entity to replace a government figure that develops the society.

I sense it too, but the statement is largely how I see it. Maybe add war, destruction of the creative powers of capitalism, the creation of schisms, shame, guilt, insecurity and hate.

It just dawned upon me: The comedians of the day are good to find contradictions, to make us laugh of the absurdities - but they stop there, they never follow up with the necessary questions to find the root cause, and the truth. Try to figure it out. The thieves you talk about, are just thieves.

I sense the sarcasm.

But most of that money we dont really get to see how effective our money goes into that route. I wish there was some progress report or a universal meter everyone can see on how a state tax is being used or something.

this video explains where your taxes go : --------> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

this ^ sums it up nicely

FTFY  

and to help fund endless nonsensical wars.

last time I checked the tax money goes back into the banks pockets. so yeah it is robbery regardless how someone says its not.

I mean yeah we pay our taxes to IRS which then sends to the treasurey, but the treasury forwards that money also back to the fed reserve.

And when the banks need more money, they just ask for the fed help..

taxing is pretty crazy if you think about it.

but whats worse then taxing is annual increase of inflation increase lets say 2%, that means you pay 2% more then previous year.. let that water you paid for is now $2.50 back when you paid $1 for.

Consider a river through a town.  Is it good for the government to build a bridge over that river?  If so, is it good to build a second bridge a few kilometers further down?  How about building hundreds of bridges over the same river, evenly spaced over 10km?

Is there some density of bridges, some tax burden past which you would be unhappy with government infrastructure projects?

What if, instead of spending $3000 in a year to have your child educated well, $6000 is taxed from you and used to educated your child poorly?  Would this not anger you?


Correlation does not imply causation.

I want to stay put, the government should move. They are the criminals.

It is not obvious if you look into it.

Pointing out bad apples is good, but the fundamentals are still there.

The individuals have to sacrifice their freedom to the collective, their money, they have to offer guilt and shame, collectivist action is violent, standard minded. The collective sacrifices individuals for the common good.

A standard meme is that you get more back than you put in. That is impossible if you think of it, and understand how value is created by consenting individuals in trade. Collective action destructs value, it is a negative sum game.

To keep the illusion alive, the collectivists have to lie and restrict free exchange of information. The products or services the collective produces have unknown value. That is why a collectivist school system, for instance, have to use standard tests and comparisons to schools in other countries. Also to keep the illusion alive, only sunshine stories of elderly in perfect homes can be distributed. A bad example is only corrected if the story can be brought to the public attention by supporters. Only if the story threatens the illusion of the benign collective. The individual concerning the case is made whole, but all others left unresolved.

I fact, you pay the full price for the services, and more, the services ar bad or misaligned with needs. You pay through taxes, money stock inflation and ever increasing state loans. You don't only pay the taxes, you pay also for the inflation and the loans. For example, you or someone like you might save through a pension fund, and that money is lent to the government. You don't think a loan is a big deal, but it is, the day it becomes clear to everybody that the loan can not be paid back, the bond loses all value, thus you have paid.

Obviously there are a lot of municipal expenses that have to come from taxes.  I think what the OP was getting at is the extreme level of overspending above and beyond those necessary costs.

See example:

http://www.rt.com/usa/obama-africa-trip-cost-176/

That was from a previous africa trip, then this most recent one cost an estimated $6 mil in flights ALONE.

That is my definition of theft, when the gvt says they cant open NATIONAL PARKS and halt white house tours, but $100 mil for a trip is ok.  And this is really just the tip of the iceberg, not even getting into the CIA's "black budgets"...

The aspect of taxation I've always found most curious is the perception of fairness.  I've spoken to several people before that admit to being "happy with taxation" in general (even if unhappy with certain implementation details) and, while they concede the immorality of the theft involved, defend the institution as a whole on utilitarian grounds ("necessary evil", "for the greater good", "the ends justify the means").  However, when discussing isolated incidents of tax avoidance/evasion, utilitarian concerns take a back seat to ethical ones.  Suddenly it's not about the existence of public services but about people not paying "their fair share".

Also Fire departments, courts, dispute resolution companies, currency, etc will all exist far more efficiently in the absence of a government.

It is a myth that anarchy=chaos.

In reality, what we have in the world right now=chaos.

People should stop thinking of anarchy as the absence of government (it is not). And start thinking of anarchy as a 'subscription based government'. It will make more sense that way. And before you hit me up with your big bag of hypotheticals that you are thinking up, the answers have already been answered in detail by other anarchists.

The market. Private roads, schools, hospitals.

I was always under an impression that they outsource the work to local traders in turn of government projects and reward them money. I did not know that the government did not build roads and free health care hospitals and museums, etc. It peaks my interest on where the money for such comes from? Who provides these contractors finance for completing govt projects if not the govt?

I'm not against the fees that the Government applies, but with their misuse. The deviation made by politicians makes me wish there were no more, I see every day people in extreme poverty while the miserable of politico's just new car every month, for me doesn't make sense to pay to play corrupcçao, school with but conditions and health without sufficient professionals to the population.

can they simply pay less everyone and get rid of this tax bullshit? it would solve many things and money, because you do not need a taxman anymore

it would work precisely with employer and not employees

Not really, a poor person depends on those being paid.
You can't think correctly and make decent decision making if your basic need are not meet.
Therefore, only the rich should pay taxes so the poor can save money and actually try to generate wealth and improve their lives. The poor will not magically stop being poor if no one pays taxes, some help is always needed for most. Low-middle class should be tax free, the super rich should pay the taxes because your life is going to be as good with 50 or 100 millions. Someone's life is going to go from bearable to absolute shit if you go from 1200 to 600 euro, so to speak.

They don't, and that is what we want.

Its not really about gratitude. People feel cheated sometimes because so much money is accounted as taxes, and so many people have to pay it. Considering their is shit load of money with the government and watching the govt do nothing with it and then state that it has been used already and pretend work has started has annoyed and pissed off people. Its an issue on a macro level.

That's a very nice answer. There are people always complaining where there money goes and if that authority to information is given to them, they would force their way into redirecting their funds to a different task like building a highway rather than providing financial aid to the poor or for food for the military. We get back a lot from the taxes we provide, gratitude must be paid.

Taxes are needed for the development of a country or a place or a locality. Bitcoin might well have low transaction fee etc, but not paying taxes is something that will take a toll on the government, and wanting to use the coin as a way of evading taxes may well reduce it's acceptance by governments over the world. Make sense?

I always hate these threads. It always boils down to the anarchists making well thought out arguments and solutions and then the statists saying, "YEAH BUT WUT ABOUT THE ROADZ!!1"

Lets at least make it fun this go around.

gov. don't pay the road ... they print money to do this.
in real world, the people from a town participate to build the road when it's needed.

building a road is very easly ... when you have time and no money.

Without taxes, how does the government pay for things such as roads, free healthcare(in some countries) and things such as education

true.



and tax is war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joITmEr4SjY

The form of currency used isn't the main factor for taxation.  Also, you'd still be responsible for paying taxes if you use bitcoin.  Sure it may be more difficult to track, but it would be tax evasion, and if you were to be audited, you'd be caught.

When the majority of people demand lower tax, and the balancing cuts to government spending, it will happen.  It's as simple as a politician proposing tax cuts and over 50% of the population voting him or her into power.  As it stands right now, if a politician were to do that, he or she would likely not be elected because they wouldn't get majority votes.  Especially with an aging population, more and more votes will go to those that propose social welfare and benefits.

I hate taxes But I like schools, roads, police officers, hospitals, paramedics, soldiers, clean water, the post office, public parks, universities, museums, science, tunnels, bridges, etc.  So I pay them anyway.

Yeah, that would just give birth to more controversies and drama, I don't think so it will be really such a big deal if a person isn't told where his 100 dollar note is being sent as tax, its not his god damn responsibility to take care of what happens next, therefore he also loses the authority over it. It is not entirely your money, I consider tax as a fees of being part of a civilized and society and have no issues paying it.

The definition of theft is taking without consent. A child understands this.

You can say that you like taxes but you must admit that it is theft. You can't have it both ways.

I am not sure that would be a good idea. The poorer regions would continue to remain underdeveloped. Most of the tax revenues are generated by the city rich who would want the money to be spent on developing city infrastructure.

Yes roads are good (see below).

But they could ask first.

Like: "Do you want to take part in this road investment."

You might want that, provided that "If you do, you will also get a part of the toll. People are just crazy about driving here. Think about all the cars and trucks. It will be glitters!"


So it turns out, some roads are good.

I don't think that's a bad idea, I would also like to know where my taxes go and I think i could claim that right the same way they claim the right to track my money. I believe there should be a system which gives us control over where our taxes are directed or rather, at least notify where our taxes are being used. Money is an important element for daily survival and it'd be nice to know that at the end of your day, your resources aren't wasted.

i explained my reason, because you never know where your tax money will go, we should have the right to trace our taxes like they have the right to trace our money, i want to know for what i'm paying taxes not blindly paying it like i'm paying a lace to mafia...

I'm 45. Voting doesn't matter anymore because democracy is mostly a bluff nowadays and I don't want my money to be used funding imperial US wars, mass surveillance, destroying family values etc. If there would be "forced charity" instead of taxation where I would choose from few options what I can do for the society with my money, it would be much better.

Tax is one of the most essential income for the government to operate with, most of the money government uses for their work is from taxes. A lot of people keep questioning about the proper functioning performed with those taxes, but corrupt officials never provide clear info. Regardless, I think we should pay taxes because it is our social duty as a part of being a citizen in the society. We shouldn't escape taxes, rather build a more clear structure to implement use of taxes.

Are you 18? If you are, you vote for those taxes. Don't act so helpless. If you don't like the taxes, do something about it! Vote a different way, get people to vote with you, do something to change the opinion of the politicians that represent you. And if you live in some place where the government is completely corrupt and the vote doesn't matter, move!

Bitcoin can't change the need for Government to assess taxes.

Bitcoin is a currency, it's not a government. You can put all your money in Bitcoin, but the jurisdiction you live in will still require you pay taxes. They don't care you pay for them, only that you pay up...unless you live in Greece, of course.

 I agree with you in first part of your post.Bitcoin will not save us from anything,especially from taxes.here in Poland btc is taxed by 23% vat tax

I am not against taxes. There are common services like the hospitals, fire services, administrations etc which a working community needs and which should be paid by the government.

Tax is a way to keep society better for everyone and have more opportunities and We have to pay taxes because what we have now is thanks to all the people who has lived before us

there is a hole on country management that allows politicians to steal our taxes for they own .. we need more transparence,not complaining about paying taxes,if them are spent on what is needed by the people.But most of those is spend ,used to get politician rich soo they steal and left the people hungry and got sick

Dude we all thrive on the idea of independency and privacy of currency yet we expect to know exactly where every penny of ours land. Its not our job, if the government does something for the country, their main share of working capital finance are taxes. Even if you send a coin to somebody, chances are you will never truly know who it really was except if you knew him personally. I think it will be really hard for the government to tell us exactly where the money goes and comes out. There's a ledger which records all calculations and transactions, which I think is accessible to the public. Enough info....as long as there is no corruption involved

I agree. Taxation is legalized theft.

If I were to mow your lawn without asking you, present you with a bill and then threaten you to pay, of course that would be consider an act of coercion. Taxes are no different than this.

Basically a room full of people get together, invoke political ritual and all of a sudden the theft is ok because it was passed as "legislation".

Nobody is against feeding the poor, having health insurance, employment insurance, pensions, etc., but ALL of these things can be provided on a voluntary basis by privately competing organizations.

Bitcoin may not change things on it's own, but I believe the idea of crypto-currencies in general will.

When evading taxes and the punishment associated with it becomes as easy and risk free as downloading mp3 files everyone will do it. No more stuffing cash under your mattress to avoid leaving a paper trail. Just use an anonymous coin and be your own bank. Nobody will be able to tell how much money you have!

in that case, i agree with u
for example is blockchain. honestly at the beggining i dont know that every transaction is have a tax (10000 satoshi/transaction) and i realized that yesterday-_- when i reedem my faucets

Well I am actually not even trying not to pay taxes. I am OK with taxes if the amounts are fair and I know where my money is going, where is being invested. But we all know this is very hard to achieve even in more transparent democracies.

The important question is why is everybody looking out to avoid taxes? if one want to revolutionize taxation and currencies, why not amend rules regarding taxation and currencies altogether? Also, there is already rules and regulations regarding taxes and most of us already do pay taxes when a transaction takes place, other than that they are treated as capital gains. There is a more detailed explanations on the internet, give it a read

I am not sure bitcoin will change that. Countries will want to tax bitcoin as well as any Fiat money out there if they are going to recognize us. We will have to comply with their laws.

If we reject this, than they will make us illegal. I am really not sure what is the best thing to do. Taxes are among us since forever, this is the way politicians live. Can we really stop taxes altogether? I don't believe so.

Very tricky question!

There are people out there who believe that bitcoin can help them avoid tax but that's false. You need to pay tax of bitcoin too whenever a taxing event occurs. Bitcoins are taxed as capital gains, usually. Capital gains is taxed depending on how long you’ve held the asset.  If you’ve had the asset for a year or less then it’s a short-term capital gain. If you’ve held the asset for more than a year  then you have a long-term capital gain.

Nothing new here. Especially in my country. It's an open source of robbery if you'd ask me. They're everywhere even on the smallest things.

Please, not all taxes are legalized robberies!
I accept taxes to keep the streets safe and clean. The problem is that a very little part of the taxes I'm paying actually end up financing things I support. Just look at some public schools which turn good kids into socialist w*nkers who'll spend their entire lives begging for state money.

you're probably not going to convince a lot of people that taxing is robbery. that's an incredibly extreme point of view that is completely at odds with living in a developed industrial nation.

i would like to know where the taxes i pay are spent soo maybe a blockhain or bitcoins could explain where government spent it,but wont happen politicians wont let that happen 100 % transparecen wont happen never they show what they wanna to show.

I'm not entirely sure how Bitcoin is nontaxable.

Some socialist ideas make sense to me. It's situational. If I lived with 100 people on an island I think it would works fine, but socialism does not scale well, IMO. But mostly I'm not an anarchist. I have had the displeasure of living in an anarchy.
Now could those things happen without taxes. Somewhat. Firefighting was a pay for use service in the U.S. 100 years ago. If you did not pay the firehouse, your house burned down. This system was replaced by public firefighting all over the world because it is better. Same with policing. You can have private police, but they are not going to enforce the law, just the laws their sponsors want.
Private roads were also normal in the past. Which is why so few traveled in the 19th. century. The roads were not coordinated and it was extremely hard to even leave the county you were born in. When public highways emerged it was a key part of exploding the economy. Same with free public education. More than most any other factor it moved millions of people out of poverty and transformed our country for the better. That is because there is no model for profitably educating the poor. How would they pay?
You may feel oppressed for paying taxes, but you would still pay. And you would still be oppressed. Without a government some other entity would fill the vacuum and simply take whatever they wanted from you. I know I would. I would kill anyone in my way and offer an AK-47 and a percentage of the loot to anyone who will join my raids. I would sell slaves, demand tribute, you would not like me.
 

Yes the taxes are ripping us off. The big amounts of money collected with the taxes are used for our best sake, but also there is percentage that goes in the pockets of the politicians. That is the harsh truth, we vote them to represent us and they still our money.

I am with you guys who think our taxes are often wasted, or spent on the wrong stuff. But the basic idea of taxation is a good one as long as the proceeds go toward the common good. IMO it's not robbery (yet) in the U.S., just poor governance.

I am not against taxes as long as I am able to see that money from it are being used in a good way. I am tired of government wasting money and 'investing' it in a bad way.
Authorities behave like these money are theirs to waste on anything. I don't like that my money are used in a wrong way...

Hopefully in the future politicians will be forced to use a public Bitcoin address where we can see where all our funds go for. This would be ideal and would end corruption.
Of course i doubt this will ever happen, who is going to force them to do so? They will simply get rid of cash and keep running their closed credits system, a dream for the corrupt elite, not even cash will make people free in next decade.

I am not completely against the taxing system but some countries are really abusing it and that is because their companies suck at manifacturing/innovation/sales.

So mr. president says, if you dumbasses don't produce anything valuable at all, then you have to pay extra moni for anything luxury you consume (like big cars, expensive jewelry bla bla bla) and more moni from everything you gain.

Tbh, i support taxes on luxury consumptions but income taxes?? No sir. That is my money. Stay the fuck away from it.

Max income tax percentage should be %20.

%10 from low gainers, %20 from whales. And that is because i am nice.

You didn't finish your thought. 

When I ordered a round of beers at the pub last night, the tax came to about 100 millies.  I don't feel this was robbery, in fact i was eager to pay the tax to support the establishment.  If there is an institution you speak of that for which you are not eager to pay the tab, then name it.   Otherwise you aren't saying anything specific enough to comment on. 

Yeah, I hate it when thieves break into my house, steal my money; then use it to build roads, pay firefighters, and educate my kids. Fricken thieves.

Tax evasion using bitcoins is still tax evasion.
So bitcoin can't reduce taxes for people who want to play by the rules.

i'm against tax since ever, but not because they are legal stealing like you said, well maybe this is true in part, but because they are not transparent at all

i want to know for what my money that i send to them for this tax garbage are used, they should only be used to help the city growth and not to pay politicians like it usually happen...

Somewhat true in most cases, because sadly the taxes are in a ton of times used by politicians for their personal use, usually involving fraud, cocaine and expensive prostitution. Can Bitcoin save us from taxes? I don't think so tho, as long as governments exist, they will want to regulate everything, including BTC. You can't live off BTC alone. If you buy a property the state will know you bought it because it's on several records. 

Politicians using taxes to take wealth from poor to rich, only bitcoin can change that. What do you think?