Topic: tBTC loans (Read 296 times)

My first post contains my arguments, and at the very top is this text:

So, i'm not trying to censor you in any way. As a matter of fact i'd be happy to discuss the issues you have with tBTC loans... Just not in this thread... This thread is for loan applications only...
If you succeed in changing my mind in a seperate thread discussing this issue, i'd be happy to change or close this thread, the discussion however, does not belong here.

As a matter of fact, i opened a topic in ivory tower and answered your question there
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-it-ok-to-give-out-testnet-loans-for-collateral-5306936

This sounds a lot like you are trying to profit from your testnet coin. In other words, it sounds like you are trying to assign value to your testnet coin. You should not do this.

tBTC is intended to aid the development of bitcoin and bitcoin services. By requiring transaction fees to be paid, you are effectively receiving value in exchange for your tBTC. You are also creating a market for tBTC.

Most tBTC faucets allow people to receive small amounts of tBTC, and ask that users return unused tBTC once their testing is complete. IMO this is how tBTC should be distributed to devs wanting to build/test bitcoin-related services.

Perhaps to avoid people attempting to assign a specific value to tBTC you could offer a range of a lot of tBTC.

For example:
Borrowing 1-5 tBTC will cost X,
6-10 tBTC will cost Y,
10-20 tBTC will cost Z,
etc


Just a thought, its your tBTC do as you will, but maybe it will appease the forum gods if a value is less specific than 0,001 BTC/tBTC and instead based on a general amount 

Thanks for the offer
I'm currently not in dire need of donations, however, any donation is appreciated and will be passed out for free from my tbtc faucet, or i'll use the tBTC to give no-intrest loans (nobody has ever tipped me, and funds i get from loan defaulter's collateral will go to renting some hashpower as soon as i run out of tBTC... Same goes for the allmost nonexistent add revenue... So i'm not making money on this service).

If you want to donate, the hot wallet's donation address: 2Mx1wPhYFShxUJohK14xnhGHeUYkS7wpNi8
It can also be found on https://tbtc.mocacinno.com/
And for full transparency:


But like i said: i'm not running on fumes at the moment, so if you have other uses for your tBTC it might be better if you hold on to it... That being said: donations are always appreciated and will be put to good use

Do you need donations? I've been meaning to get rid of ~4.18 tBTC for some time now but faucets that I checked a while back were rich already (100-500 balance in their hot wallet) so I kept it. If you have less I could donate it to you.
You could also give me a testnet address and I will use that if I had any test that required mining a new block in the future, I won't need the reward myself anyways and it usually goes to waste.

This thread is meant for tBTC loan applications... I know some people disagree to lending out tBTC (especially for collateral), but this is NOT the place to discuss this. It's true that regtest exists, it's true that most tests only require a very small amount of tBTC, it's true there are loads of 1 sat altcoins you can use... But there are still instances where larger amounts of tBTC can be useful for testing purposes, and this is the thread to request a larger amount... If you want to discuss why i'm wrong when giving out loans, open a new thread and send me a PM with the link... I'll be happy to join your discussion

Since the current bull market, I get more and more PM's from people that want to borrow tBTC.
I have no idear if a bull market sparks innovation, thus the need for tBTC rises, or if these people are scammers that want to scam gullible newbies that enter the market.
I strongly believe that it's quite hard to scam somebody with tBTC compared to all the other scam methods around (and i believe most scammers will take the path of least resistance), so i hope the ratio of scammers vs developers is in favor of the developers...

This being said, I do think that developers of new services are a crucial part of the ecosystem, and since some developments NEED tBTC, I still believe in giving out tBTC loans to those that qualify.

Because i'm tired of individually handle PM's and mails, i'll just point borrowers to this thread instead in the future

So, from now on, the procedure for borrowing tBTC from me is as follows:

• 1) You post in this thread to introduce yourself (especially if you're a member or lower)
• 2) in the same post, you explain what you want to do with the tBTC
• 3) in the same post, you tell me how much you want to borrow and for how long. Tell me which (alt)coin you'll be giving as collateral. Don't offer some unknown coin tough, if the coin you want to use isn't in the top-20 of https://coinmarketcap.com/ the odds of me accepting it are low. If you want to use an escrow: no problem... Find one we both trust... Also: post your tBTC address you want me to fund
• 4) i'll reply by give you a collateral quote or by denying the loan (for example, if no proper explanation as to why you need tBTC is given, or if i'm out of tBTC). Expect the required collateral/tBTC to be higher for long-term loans, higher if you give an altcoin as collateral, higher for people i don't know (people i trust completely won't have to give any collateral for smaller loans),... I'll also post an address for you to send the collateral to (unless an escrow is to be used).
• 5) AFTER i receive the collateral (or AFTER the escrow confirms he/she is holding the collateral), i'll fund the address you posted in step 3
• 6) There are no extensions... This service is 100% interest-free (tips are appreciated tough), i don't want to bother keeping a long list of exceptions and extensions, it's free, just make sure you ask enough time to begin with. You will have to repay me before the loanterm is over. The term starts at the moment i funded your tBTC address, and ends exactly after the agreed upon number of days/weeks stipulated in point 3. I WILL sell your collateral when the time is up... Also, I will probably leave negative trust on loan defaulters...
• 7) The tBTC lost as mining fees has to be replenished by using a faucet... Incomplete repayments are possible, but i'll keep some of the collateral (a share equal to the amount of tBTC you're short + 50%)
• it's a free service, you pay ALL the fees!!! This includes, but is not limited to: the transaction fees to transfer the tBTC to you, the transaction fees associated with the collateral, the escrow fees,... No exceptions, i'm doing this for free, so i won't be paying anything out of my own pocket.

Collateral? Why? Why so much? Is it fair?

Whenever i give a loan to somebody i don't trust 100% i require collateral. Why? Because even-tough tBTC is completely worthless, mining it is far from free... Let me compare it to a real life situation: let's assume my daughter is great at art (she isn't, but let's assume she is). She loves painting oil on canvas, and her masterpieces are used all over my house because i love having paintings to decorate my rooms. These paintings are not worth anything (my daughter is only 12 years old, she isn't famous), but each masterpiece costs 100€ in raw materials.
One day, a complete stranger i have never seen before takes a peek trough my window and sees my daughter's paintings. He knocks on the door and asks to borrow 5 of them. He pinky promises to bring them back in 2 weeks. Mind you: i don't know the stranger, i can't trust him to even carry a valid passport, and i use the paintings to cover my walls... This means that if the stranger doesn't keep his word, my daughter has to paint 5 new "worthless" paintings to fill my walls, and it'll cost me another 500€ in raw materials.
Should i let the stranger walk away with 5 worthless paintings that cost me 500€ out of pocket? I personally wouldn't do this... I'd ask the stranger to give me 600€ for the paintings, and promise him he'll get his money back if he returns them after 2 weeks... And i would expect him to give my daughter a decent tip because she lent him her art...

Same with tBTC... It's worthless, but I do have a use for it (i'm running a faucet). If somebody wants to borrow tBTC, i'm willing to help them out (intrest free), but i'm not willing to let somebody I don't know walk away with tBTC i do need without any form of collateral.

The collateral should be sufficient to cover my "raw materials" + something extra for my troubles in case the borrower runs off without returning my tBTC. The extra collateral should incentivise the borrower to return my tBTC

Now, for the boring stuff:
How much does it cost to mine 1 tBTC??

The current block reward on the testnet is 0.097 tBTC/block
I'll have to mine 11 testnet blocks to earn 1 tBTC
The current difficulty is 157M
The formula's you can find on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty
network hashrate = D * 2**32 / 600
time to find one block = difficulty * 2**32 / hashrate

So, in our case
network hashrate = 157.000.000 * 2**32 / 600
network hashrate = 1.123.849.775.786.666 hashes/second
network hashrate = 1.123.849.775.787 kh/second
network hashrate = 1.123.849.776 Mh/second
network hashrate = 1.123.850 Gh/second
network hashrate = 1.124 Th/second
network hashrate = 1 Ph/second

Wow, 1 Ph??? Yup... 1 Peta-hash...
In order to mine a couple of blocks, we'll have to rent a semi-decent rig...
At the moment, a rig like this one comes with a good price/quality ratio:
https://www.miningrigrentals.com/rigs/175758/?currency=BTC
It'll cost 0.00056916 BTC per 12 hours running @ 124 Th/s

with such a machine:
time to find one block = difficulty * 2**32 / hashrate
time to find one block = 157.000.000 * 2**32 / 12400000000
time to find one block = 5438 seconds

But we need 11 blocks...
11*5438 =~60.000 seconds

That's about 17 hours

So, if we rent the rig on miningrigrentals:
0.00056916 => 12 hours
:12
0.00004743 => 1 hour
x17
0.00080631 => 17 hours

Given that I would have to do all the grunt work (setting up a solo mining operation, renting the hashrate,..) and i would have to take all the risks, i'd round this up to 0.001 BTC/tBTC (this is just a ballpark figure, the actual collateral/tBTC will depend on a lot of factors)

Is this amount fair? Well, like i said, tBTC is worthless, but it's not free to mine... If i wouldn't ask for collateral, people would just borrow and forget... or run away... and no, the word of somebody i don't know doesn't count (i'm not that naive)... I'd be left with an empty wallet and no tBTC for my faucet... That doesn't sound fair either doesn't it?

sources:
https://testnet.smartbit.com.au/charts/difficulty
https://www.miningrigrentals.com/rigs/175758/?currency=BTC
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty